Um... Somebody Care To Elaborate ??? - From OccupyPhilly

[WillyT]

Found through Twitter:

mtracey Michael Tracey
There are at least two officers here from the Philly PD's "Homeland Security" unit at @OccupyPhilly. twitpic.com/7ktmc4 #OWS

17 minutes ago

:wow:

:wtf:

:shrug:

[grasswire]

1. retweet that to MMoore

somebody with big following ought to retweet it

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. But, but...there is zero fed involvement

I hope that puts that one to bed

[TheWraith]

5. You did notice that it's a PHILADELPHIA PD division, right?

The Philadelphia PD is not a unit of the Department of Homeland Security, no matter what they call their own divisions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You can twist whatever way you want to.

Homeland is DHS.

[msanthrope]

11. Homeland Security is Philadelphia PD. It's a unit started in 2002.

The feds here have other units, depending on where you are in the city.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Which works hand in hand with the Feds

http://www.fbi.gov/philadelphia/about-us/partners

Point stands.

[msanthrope]

17. Of course they work with the feds. Can you name an LEO unit that doesn't? But they aren't feds.

They are Philly PD. They also handle counter-terrorism, security for press and visitors, and negotiations. I'd expect them to be present because the physical structure of City Hall is involved, as are negotiations with a group.

I'd rather have trained LEOs than beat cops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. You do not find curious anti terror units are used?

I do.

I can't help, so I will leave you to your happy thoughts.

Suffice it to say if it quacks and swims like a duck, it's not a kitty.

[msanthrope]

25. No. City Hall is involved. So are negotiations. If you live here in Philly, you know that our

landmarks are protected by these guys. They are part of rapid response--you see them at bank robberies, too.

I'd rather have them than your typical Philly beat cop. Or the union workers who will show up tomorrow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. So we no longer have professional negotiators but these guys

I find it troubling. Sub-rosa message...OWS is deemed a terrorist organization.

No it is not a kitty.

[msanthrope]

31. They are the professional negotiators. You see them at bank robberies, and other rapid

response events. Crap--they were at all the 'flash mob' riots, too. I have no doubt there are feds at Occupy. But they don't tend to let you know they are there....

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yes, but this close cooperation was not there

I can't this to you...

I have retired family from pd. even one who was certified as a negotiator fr the local, state and federal at one time. Even he could point to you how this has changed in significant ways. Gone are the days of one or two people and now we have full units.

I could try to paint this picture better but I fear I will fail anyway.

Long live the homeland, where we treat this as a terror strike.

[msanthrope]

37. Right. Because the Mint, and Independence Hall only came into existence recently.

Here in Philly, we've always had a considerable Federal presence. And different federal LEO forces.

It's not being treated as a terror strike. More like a massive nuisance at a landmark that has only a chain link fence over the main entrances.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Okie dokie remember the catnip for the cat

Serious.

[msanthrope]

40. Will you be disappointed if police brutality doesn't happen? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Nope, I will be relieved

If you think I want that you are nuts. But the sub-rosa comments are going well over your head.

[treestar]

52. Yes. And it appears it is wrong for the police to do

anything at all regarding OWS! They should just leave it alone, apparently. No matter what happens. Now when a rape happened and there was no police response to that at all, suddenly it would be "Where are the police?" "Where is Obama?"

:rofl:

[Luminous Animal]

54. Attacking their fellow citizens... gassing them, beating them... doesn't even

come close to serving and protecting.

[treestar]

56. So what does that have to do with the fact that they

there may be for other reasons? Why are you presuming each and every LEA will "brutalize?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. You are the one hoping for that

Not us.

[treestar]

61. Hoping for what?

There could be criminals taking advantage of the protestors there! Then what would you be saying?

You're just assuming they are all there to harm the protestors, a ridiculous accusation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

I did not say that, you did

We all hope for peace.

So stop doing that.

But then again the actual Boston tea party, a celebrated event in history, you believe it is destruction of property, so this civil disobedience must be tummy wrenching.

[treestar]

65. OWS is not anything near like the Boston Tea Party

And it was a one shot thing. And people would be arrested for that. Isn't that the point?

OWS is not protesting any particular law, apparently, other than the laws saying they can't be in a park after dark, or something.

Quit pretending you are living in the middle of 1917 in Russia. You aren't. Deal with it. Maybe go watch "Reds" or something. You aren't living it.

Cops in the US are not the Gestapo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. You know the objectives have been posted ad nauseaus

At this point ignorance is willful.

Have a good day.

[Luminous Animal]

73. The Boston Tea Party was one culmination of actions of the "Sons of Liberty"...

The Sons of Liberty met at night under cover of darkness to plan their actions which sometimes involved attacking businesses, officials of the Crown (tax collectors, etc.) tar and feathering, inciting riots, full on weapon violence, destroying the King's press, and vandalizing and burning down the King's buildings.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Oh and one more thing, OWS is not REDS

As much as you wish to use that appellation. Unless of course, Medicare for all is a communist plot. Or getting glass Steagal back in the books. If those two are in the communist manifesto, I will gladly eat my shoe.

[uppityperson]

67. Where does she hope for violence? I don't see it. can you point it out to me?

thank you

[Luminous Animal]

62. Any officer that stands by while their fellow officers brutalize, is complicit.

[msanthrope]

72. Ironically, Occupy Philly is blocking the project to make City Hall/Plaza handicapped accessible.

That's what the renovation project is supposed to do--allow handicapped accessibility to City Hall, the Plaza, and the subway station underneath....

[Luminous Animal]

75. Actually they are holding up the removal of scaffolding and window repair according to the mayor...

"The mayor stressed that two public safety maintenance projects - the removal of tower scaffolding and repairs to windows overlooking the encampment - must proceed."

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=8430189

[msanthrope]

78. Um, the 50 million $ renovation to Dilworth Plaza isn't about window repair.

I've no doubt other projects are going on--they always are in City Hall.

"The construction project will convert what is now a stark, concrete expanse into a broad open space with trees, a large lawn, an outdoor cafe and a fountain. It will also include the renovation of access points to the city's transit system."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203699404577043950662987254.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Luminous Animal]

79. Yes. Ultimately. But currently, ACCORDING TO THE MAYOR, they are holding up

scaffolding removal and window repair. Unless, the mayor is lying.

[msanthrope]

80. I think they are doing both. Dilworth is supposed to start tomorrow, so hopefully, they will be

out.

[Luminous Animal]

84. Really. The contract was only awarded last week.

[msanthrope]

74. Apparently, we are supposed to let union jobs, and handicapped accessibilty go by the wayside for

Occupy Philly.....

Instead of moving across the street, we should allow Occupy Philly to stop a renovation project with 1,000 jobs. A project designed to allow the handicapped to reach the subway station below, and allow better access to City Hall.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue State Bandit]

77. PPD's Homeland Security Div is involved in "Negotiations"?

First of, our "Landmarks" like the National Constitution Center and Independence Mall are protected by Federal DHS uniformed officers. City Hall is protected by PPD itself. Philly's Homeland Security division is a liasons/response division for the JTTF which is a federal umbrella organization. PPD's Homeland Security div is only present during large/sensitive events that require cross jurisdictional involvement between federal/state/municipal agencies.

PPD does not have jurisdiction in bank robbery negotiations. That would be FBI under the USDOJ. They are first responders, but do not have jurisdiction to lead either investigations or negotiations.

[WillyT]

22. You Ain't Kidding...

Philadelphia police hold emergency exercise

Published 5 May 2011

<snip>

On Wednesday morning the Philadelphia police department held a training exercise to help prepare officers to respond during a terrorist attack; starting at 10:30 AM roughly 50 officers gathered on 22nd Street and JFK Boulevard where they were given assignments, briefed, and eventually deployed to cover different sections of Center City.

<And...>

The drill involved members of the department’s Homeland Security Unit and was a rapid deployment exercise thatreflected Philadelphia’s heightened level of awareness following the death of Osama bin Laden. Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey said that the exercise was not in response to any specific threat, but was aimed at ensuring that all local law enforcement officers were on guard.

“I’ve been in touch with the Homeland Security Department and the FBI,” Ramsey said. “Philadelphia and every city needs to have a level of preparedness.”

<snip>

Link: http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/philadelphia-police-hold-emergency-exercise

********************************************************************************

Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey

Commissioner Ramsey serves as both the President of the Police Executive Research Forum, and the President of the Major Cities Chiefs Association in the United States and Canada, the only law enforcement professional to hold both of these positions at the same time. He is also a member of the Executive Committee for the International Association of Chiefs of Police, which represents cities with populations over one million. Commissioner Ramsey serves on the National Advisory Council for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), comprising experts in the field of emergency preparedness, management and response, and is also an advisor to the FBI’s National Executive Institute.

He has served previously as the Chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee for both the International Association of Chiefs of Police and the Major Cities Chiefs Association.

Link: http://phillypolice.com/about/leadership/charles-h-ramsey/

:hi:

[WillyT]

9. Yeah... But They Have To Be Some Of THE DUMBEST MOFO's To Wheel That Thing Out Tonight !!!

If what you say is true...

:shrug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. Or, they don't even care

[msanthrope]

12. It's a Philly PD unit. Since 2002. The feds here have different units.

Depending on where you are in Philly, you could encounter 4-5 different fed units. But that's Philly PD.

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. Why are you defending this shit? Damn. WTF do they have to do to make you realize

THIS IS NOT WHAT IS SUPPOSE TO BE GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? The Homeland Security is NOT suppose to be brutalizing our citizens. Nor are they suppose to be involved in PEACEFUL protests. Homeland Security is suppose to be looking for TERRORISTS. Remember?

Shit. What some people accept as normal in today's world is so fucking BIZARRE. Are you young?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

27. when in the name of all thats holy and unholy is pointing out a fact the wrong thing to do?

Read his post over once more please, its *NOT* the federal homeland security, its a local police department division(with a rather foolish name admittedly.)

So maybe the question returned back at you should be "why do you ignore facts to rail against somebody trying to make things more accurate?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. They are the anti terror unit with close ties with the FBI

http://www.fbi.gov/philadelphia/about-us/partners

[msanthrope]

35. Facts that interfere with outrage are inconvenient. nt

[treestar]

53. What incident occurred that you can label DHS brutalizing anyone?

Please point out to what they do that is illegal.

This entire country was demanding protection and the DHS after 911.

[Luminous Animal]

58. I live this country and I was part of quite a few protests that outright rejected DHS

and the kind of protection offered by our right wing authoritarian government.

[WillyT]

60. NO... THE ENTIRE COUNTRY... WAS NOT !!!

As soon as many of us saw the videos of the planes hitting the towers, and the towers smoking, and the towers falling...

Our initial reaction was quite different from what you think it was.

:evilfrown:

[treestar]

64. As a country?

Yeah, right. No, it was all about "security" and "protection" and how the government had a "duty to protect us."

The government had failed to "connect the dots" and stop 911. DHS was one of the moves that was supposed to help the government "connect the dots."

[WillyT]

71. DHS Was Originally Meant To Provide For Sharing Of, And Not Competition Over, Important Information

In the past, the various Federal Law Enforcement Agencies used to compete with each other, and keep information from one another. As I recall, originally, DHS was supposed to put an end to such juvenile bullshit, and start sharing information so All agencies were on the same page...

Regarding TERRORISTS... NOT US!

But then... that was exactly the fear many of us had, after we got over the shock and anger of the day the towers fell.

:shrug:

[emcguffie]

96. You listen to the media too much.

The media have been manipulating us like crazy for decades now.

What they tell us we are thinking and saying and doing is not necessarily anything to do with the truth.

I certainly wasn't clamoring for them to protect me more. I wasn't clamoring to have the National Guard all over the subways for years and years, or for them to keep raising that threat level whenever they wanted to hide something or distract the public from something else that was going on. I felt manipulated and lied to.

Just because you bought that bull doesn't mean the rest of us did.

[Blue_In_AK]

88. Agreed, WillyT.

I'm not sure what really happened, but I know there's more there than meets the eye. We've been propagandized.

[emcguffie]

95. This is leaving me speechless.

Anything with a name like "homeland security" has always sounded a loud warning bell to me. The names smells an awful lot like a certain European country in the 1930s that felt the need to take over the rest of Europe. I couldn't imagine the USA ever using a word like "homeland" after World War II, but maybe it's been long enough that memories are short.

I don't know anyone who was the least bit pleased that the DHS was established. No one. Nobody. Not one single acquaintance. "The whole country was demanding protection"? That's what we were told. That's not what was true.

The whole country was clamoring for us to go get OBL, in Afghanistan, not in Iraq. We were told over and over and over the problem was in Iraq. We were told over and over and over that there was a threat to our "homeland." Bull shite.

But many people were convinced by the non-stop barrage and went for that war. But those people were very poorly informed.

[ZombieHorde]

16. Holy shit; you're right.

http://www.phillypolice.com/news/philadelphia-police-department-s-homeland-security-to-conduct-a-rapid-deployment-exercise/

I don't think they should use that label.

[msanthrope]

18. It distinguishes them from the DHS units, actually.

The feds label themselves 'DHS'. Well, some of them. Treasury enforcement is still Treasury enforcement.

[Rex]

19. It is counterintel to fool the 'bad guys' into thinking

they are probably with the CIA or NSA!

[msanthrope]

21. Um, they have the Philly PD logo on the sides of their vans.

Unless we are talking very stupid 'bad guys.'

The feds around here are far more low-key.

[Rex]

24. Yeah I was joking around somewhat.

Bad guys etc..

[msanthrope]

38. I know. nt

[Rex]

93. AH okay didn't seem like from your response you did.

[DJ13]

3. You're a terrorist if you oppose the bankers

What, people thought it was created to protect against Arabs or bombers?

lol

[Rex]

4. Explain what? You know why they are there.

To make sure no one gets pepper sprayed fighting over a new barbie doll at Wal-Mart! :hi:

[WillyT]

6. LOL !!!

That was GOOD!!!

:rofl:

:evilgrin:

:hi:

:kick:

[Rex]

14. TY. Hey, maybe Lt. Mace'a'lot will find employment with Wal-Mart in the future.

You know the one... :) Officer Viral. :)

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OwnedByFerrets]

20. Yeah, cuz OWS is such a dire threat to our securty. Btw, I dont live in a

fucking HOMELAND.

[woo me with science]

46. +100000

[bvar22]

28. Thats just PURE "speculation".

There is NO SOLID PROOF that the simultaneous attacks on OWS have ANY national coordination.
It has ALL been a big coincidence.

AND, even if there HAS been coordination and participation by national agencies,
the Justice Department has absolutely NO jurisdiction over it.
Local Police Departments are completely autonomous,
and can do anything they want,
whenever they want,
and can "coordinate" with anyone they want to,
even "private" agencies staffed and funded by Military "Terrorism" experts.


...or so I have read on DU.
Why do you hate Obama? :shrug:

[WillyT]

32. Yeah... Huh ???

:rofl:

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Well they are the local anti terror unit

With close coordination with the FBI, to be precise

http://www.fbi.gov/philadelphia/about-us/partners

More on the militarization of pds.

[bvar22]

43. "Local" Police Departments being "coordinated" by private...

...shadow agencies is FRIGHTENING.

Being "Coordinated" or "Advised" by Federal agencies can NOT be done
without the knowledge and approval of the White House.


If the FBI or Homeland Security has gone rogue,
then the White House needs to handle it like Truman handled MacArthur when HE went rogue.
The Top Law Enforcement Officer in the USA should STOMP THIS OUT with Extreme Prejudice.

“The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”--- Frank Zappa


I believe I see some of the "scenery" being taken down.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I know, why I pointed who s doing what

When we find all this, after dust settles, it's going to make the 60's look like a damn walk.

[Remember Me]

87. Well, damn it

That's probably the most sensible post I've seen on the whole thing yet.

Well done.

I'm just mad I didn't write it. :D

[FirstLight]

94. +1000

it's all a freaking illusion, thanks for posting

[Luminous Animal]

45. People can offer theories till the cows come home. And, given the history of the U.S. re movement

oppression, many of those theories will be correct.

The issue isn't well educated assumptions, the issue is presenting those assumptions as TRUTH when you've done no such thing.

That people cannot see the difference is mind-boggling.

It is a fact that there is no proof of a national coordination of raids on the Occupy encampment. As intelligent people we can arrive at a conclusion that coordination may have happened. We can point to the scant facts as to why we believe that there may have been coordination but, without solid proof, we would be dishonest to say that we know the TRUTH.

There is ZERO evidence that the Feds have been involved at all. ZERO. It wouldn't surprise me if there is involvement, though. And knowing history, I can offer a well-educated theory that the Feds are probably involved, but I would be ignorant and irresponsible to present that theory as SHOCKING TRUTH.

In order for something to be true, there must be evidence to back it up. No evidence turns truth into truthiness*.


Truthiness is a "truth" that a person claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or that it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.<1>

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Actually I think the means for coordination

Are staring you in the face in that photo. Educated guess, that's where quite a bit of it is being done.

It used to be FBI had a laison officer, and a region had a negotiator or two, even a team, certified to do this shit at three levels. These units were created for the purpose of dealing with challenges (terror) to the homeland.

Dust needs to settle, but that photo is one of those huge puzzle pieces.

[Luminous Animal]

49. Again. An educated guess... not the SHOCKING TRUTH.

Living in San Francisco, we see our own anti-terrorism department showing up at street fairs and farmer's markets. They tour the metro daily and strut around Union Square... anywhere there is a gathering of 50 or more the anti-terrorism unit is there.

So yes, I see the means of coordination on almost a daily basis. Is seeing their presence proof that the local is coordinating with Federal DHS to patrol farmer's markets?

No. I can intelligently assume that there is coordination but I would be ignorant and irresponsible to assert that assumption as SHOCKING TRUTH.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. When it settles it will shock you

I guarantee it.

[Luminous Animal]

69. Uh. No it won't. FUCKING CEASE TRYING TO SCHOOL ME ON THE BRUTAL

SUPPRESSION OF PEOPLE'S MOVEMENTS.

I am well aware of the history both in the U.S. and globally. Well aware and no measure against the protesters would surprise me. Not spying, not beatings, not murder, not "disappearing". Nothing.


Really, just fucking knock it off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. I will knock it off as soon as you quit telling us it is not happening

. Deal?

Edit for clarity.

[Luminous Animal]

85. I demand that you take that down. Never did that. Not once.

Quit lying and leave me the fuck alone.

[Luminous Animal]

86. Your PM to me reveals that you are dishonestly smearing me.

What side are you on?

Our PM exchange:

Luminous Animal
>I never once said what you are accusing me of saying.
>Never.
>
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Nadine
Sorry but that was the impression I got from all the posts on Mrs Wolf blog post,

And I will leave it at that

Thus, you are accusing me of doing something based on an impression and refuse to back up your impression with facts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. If you cannot live with the impression you give

that is not my fault.

Have a good day...

or night

Or whatever...

Down twinkies.

[Remember Me]

91. I think you would do well to sit down, maybe with pencil and paper

and think through what your definitions of some of the following are:

PROOF - you throw that word around like you know what it means. I sure as hell don't. Not in this context. I see -- and know -- a lot of true things in our world and very little "proof" for most of them.

EViDEMCE - Ditto more or less.

NATIONAL COORDINATION - PERF is big friends with DHS -- FUNDED by DHS, as a matter of fact. PERF admits to being on the phone calls but demurs about "coordinating" the activities (do you want to believe them?) What constitute coordination to you?


In order for something to be true, there must be evidence to back it up.

Nonsense. That isn't even close to accurate or the way things work. In order for YOU to accept certain things, you want PROOF (is that the same as evidence to you? It's not to lawyers and judges and such.) Is someone's report "evidence"? Is it PROOF?


No evidence turns truth into truthiness*.
Nah, it just turns it into an unverified report. Truth is truth whether there's even anyone around to KNOW it or believe it or report it or not. Truth doesn't depend on proof at all -- except perhaps to those who can't believe a certain something without proof. Maybe they don't know enough about how the world works, maybe they're just being difficult.

I think people see "the difference," I just think we find it mostly immaterial -- that "the difference" pales in comparison to what the larger picture represents.

[emcguffie]

97. So people are saying that they believe this has happened.

I'm not sure I get the big distinction you are talking about here. Proof? Why do we need proof to say what we think may be going on? Maybe if we talk about it we may find proof. Otherwise, are you saying we should be good little boys and girls and not dare suggest such a thing?

To me, to say if we don't have proof in hand means we can't say it is just sticking your head in the sand. It's probably happening, as far as I'm concerned, and one day we will know whether it was or wasn't. Or maybe we won't know. Because if our new form of government has its way, we will not be able to find out such things, as we don't really need to know them -- for our own protection, of course. Because there is such a terrible, persistent threat against us that we must declare our front yards to be part of the battleground, where we can be arrested and locked up and the key thrown away -- just to protect us, of course.

I think they want to protect us from the truth.

But that is just what I think. I reserve the right to express that, long before I have any proof. Because I will not be the person to have that proof, or to find that proof. Nor am I, myself, in possession of the proof that the Sun doesn't go around the Earth. Someone else got it, and I think it took many, many years for that information to become widely known by the general population.

So, we shall see down the road what is the truth today, but we shouldn't close our eyes to the possibilities in the here and now.

Excuse my long-windedness. I guess I just don't get your point.

[Blue_In_AK]

90. Amazing what you see here.

[spanone]

30. were they around when the teabaggers were totin' guns to town halls????

don't remember them...

[Warren Stupidity]

34. Ms Wolf is a liar!

Or so I've been told.

[FarCenter]

42. Police Department have "homeland security" units because then they can get federal grant money

It is bureaucratic suckling at the federal teat.

[WillyT]

48. And Are There... "Strings" Attached To That Federal Grant Money ???

Hmmm ???

:shrug:

[Luminous Animal]

50. Probably. And surmising that is an educated assumption not the SHOCKING TRUTH.

[Dawson Leery]

51. Anyone who truly fight for justice cannot be in law "enforcement".

[treestar]

59. Utterly ridiculous

Without law enforcement, bullies would be able to go around doing as they please to anyone else. The mob would take over. That would be zero justice.

Dumbest post on the thread, and that takes some doing.

[Dawson Leery]

63. Police are needed as the world is flawed.

At the same time, when systems become corrupt, it is up to we the people to bring about reform. Police protect the status quo, when the status quo becomes corrupted, the police will still defend the system.

[treestar]

66. If by the status quo you mean the law

There is no way every police organization in the US is completely "corrupt."

I don't know what some of these posters wants. No police? Mob rule? The Mafia will be really "fair." :sarcasm:

[Dawson Leery]

76. No one said every police department is corrupt.

They are protecting a corrupt system.

[uppityperson]

70. Of course they can. It can be difficult to continue and not get sucked into cynicism and going along

but of course they can.

[Zorra]

92. Um, hello? It's their job to keep the country safe from democracy and to protect the 1%.

That's why they call it "Homeland Security".

Why wouldn't they be there? Seriously.
;)

[pecwae]

98. Why is anyone so shocked to see this?

There's nothing remotely shocking about it. Inevitable and expected really. The prominent signage is probably all that's new.