There's no manor for Bradley Manning...

[kpete]

Julian Assange of WikiLeaks is out on bail—apparently headed for the 10-bedroom home of British former army officer Vaughan Smith, described by the Guardian as a rightwing libertarian. Assange's lawyer joked that it would not be so much “house arrest as manor arrest” while he fights extradition to Sweden on sexual assault charges.

There's no manor for Bradley Manning. As Glenn Greenwald noted yesterday, the alleged leaker of much of the WikiLeaks information--including the “Collateral Murder” video showing soldiers shooting Iraqi civilians—has been sitting in solitary confinement for seven months under torture conditions. Denied even sheets and a pillow for his bed, Manning is under constant surveillance to prevent him even for exercising for 23 out of 24 hours of every day.And nw he's under a regimen of authority-administered anti-depressant drugs.

From the start, and as Assange has consistently pointed out, Manning and other whistleblowers are the ones who've put themselves on the line. Pentagon papers leaker Daniel Ellsberg calls Manning his hero. He has not been tried or convicted of any crime. And yet the 22-year-old Army private's received none of the celebrity support that Julian Assange has.

..................

Today, Assange is out of jail. But let's not forget that without Bradley Manning and many others like him, Julian Assange and WikiLeaks and all our new-found public information would be as in the dark as Manning is right now.

more:
http://www.grittv.org/2010/12/16/the-f-word-forgetting-bradley-manning/

[Occam Bandage]

1. There isn't a government on Earth that wouldn't punish a Bradley Manning. nt

[kpete]

2. and Jesus Christ,

as well

[RKP5637]

5. Jesus Christ would be crucified today by some professing religion because

he would be seen as a dirty liberal hippie.

[Pavulon]

17. Wow a Jesus to manning comparison. that is awesome..(nt)

[Capitalocracy]

19. You're right.

Jesus doesn't hold a candle to Manning. At least Manning did something useful.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capitalocracy]

25. ...

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

27. Still epic funny. jesus christ.. or manning..still god wow.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zywiec]

30. Right, in 2000 years people will still be talking about Manning

:eyes:

:puke:

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. If his statue is still standing, then they probably will. n/t

[Zywiec]

37. LOL

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Statistical]

85. Quantico, Virginia will be the Holyland.

Where the prophet Manning communed with God durring his 58 year exile. Entire civilizations will fight never ending wars to control the pilgrimage routes into Quantico.

[glinda]

303. That was pretty good about Virginia.

[awoke_in_2003]

318. more than 2000 years...

and we still talk about Zeus. I guess that makes him more real than Jeebus.

[awoke_in_2003]

317. Nah, Manning actually exists. nt

[xiamiam]

132. ignored is an unbelievable feature which allows you to see who and how a thread is derailed..nt

[Arctic Dave]

3. That is why the rest of us should celebrate him.

I for one will consider him the true hero of this endeavor.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. Like whom?

[NuclearDem]

22. Yeah, I'm gonna need a citation for that

Leaking war logs != spreading nuclear technology.

One exposes the lies of our government. The other spreads an incredibly dangerous technology.

[Occam Bandage]

23. Who did that? nt

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

42. Link?

That's all I can say that won't get deleted. Pointing out what should be the bloody obvious is against the rules.

[Forkboy]

49. Kick for stray cat.

[EFerrari]

68. On the week end, we dress up as ballerinas and whip each other.

lol

[Forkboy]

118. I am so spending my weekends the wrong way....

[awoke_in_2003]

319. you should try it...

nothing like listening to the "Nutcracker" whilst being flogged with a cat-o-9 tails :)

[Vattel]

46. but lots of govts wouldn't torture a Bradley Manning

[Occam Bandage]

58. To call solitary confinement "torture" cheapens the term.

It is unpleasant, but necessary when allowing a prisoner to mingle with others represents a threat. There is no alternative.

[Vattel]

120. unpleasant? read up about it . it's torture.

[Occam Bandage]

159. I have, and remain unconvinced. If contact represents a threat, there's no alternative to isolation.

"Unpleasant" does not mean "torture."

[Vattel]

227. Did you read the 2009 new yorker article?

Is it necessary? Britain hardly uses isolation at all any more and yet has relatively little prison violence. And contact of the sort that represents a threat can be prevented without imposing severe social isolation. Even phones and email can be used to reduce social isolation.

Is it torture? No one can deny that isolation of the sort imposed in supermax prisons is agonizing and can cause mental illess and brain damage. I guess it could be described as unpleasant as in horribly unpleasant. But then why not call it torture?

[Occam Bandage]

265. Imposing complete social isolation is necessary with Mr. Manning.

The concern with him is not prison violence. The concern with him is that he might still have access to classified information he has not yet leaked. This is a person who has already leaked the Iraq war logs, the Afghan war logs, and a quarter-million diplomatic cables. It's not inconceivable that he stored some more documents elsewhere, nor is it inconceivable that he might wish to give instructions on accessing them to someone on the outside, either directly or through a fellow prisoner.

Is that rough? Yes. Paranoid? Maybe. But when you commit the largest act of espionage in history—covering two separate wars and hundreds of embassies—you have to expect that the government isn't going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Uncle Joe]

328. How would Manning know who to trust in prison, that his conversations weren't being monitored?

It seems to me if he stored documents elsewhere and passed this information along while being monitored/recorded in prison, the government would be able to find them.

My own opinion is he's already given everything in his possession to Wikileaks.

[defendandprotect]

53. Our prisons are allegedly about REFORM ... not TORTURE ... he's a political prisoner....

[Occam Bandage]

59. Military justice is not about reform, no. nt

[defendandprotect]

149. Military "justice" is about as unjust as you can get ....

Meanwhile, this man is being TORTURED --

"Beware of those with a strong urge to punish" --


PS: So is our DOJ "justice" and our shiny new prison industry "justice" --

[Pavulon]

83. He is headed to a place where reform is not on the agenda. DB or Florence

are both shitty in their own way so they say. Florence is very quiet, no sound, no communication with other prisoners. Just isolation, if he ends up there he will never see the sun again, literally. Just reflected light.

[kayakjohnny]

4. But there probably are several who would treat him humanely while the legal process runs it's course

And that is something even the worst criminals deserve.

(Sorry, meant the reply for the first poster.)

[RKP5637]

6. It might be too much to expect from a country that practices torture. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

7. If he's an ongoing security risk, he needs to be in solitary.

Solitary confinement ought be a last resort, but it serves a purpose. Remember, Manning leaked the Iraq War logs, the Afghan War logs, Collateral Murder, and the diplomatic cables. It's not unthinkable that he might have more classified information squirreled away somewhere, nor is it far-fetched that he might try to get instructions as to how to access it to the outside world.

I don't see any reason to deny him newspapers, books, and television, though.

[kayakjohnny]

14. I wasn't concerned about solitary, but the whole idea of depriving him of excercise,

and certainly the whole 'authority-administered anti-depressant drugs' thing kind of got my attention.

[RKP5637]

40. And also at least a sheet and pillow. n/t

[kayakjohnny]

44. Yes, true. And I was going to include that too.

But I went for the heavier stuff.

You certainly are correct though.

Humane treatment until someone is tried and convicted.

And, even after that... well, there just has to be some form of humanity.

[Pavulon]

50. Those are removed when people are a suicide risk.(nt)

[RKP5637]

78. Yep, that makes sense! n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

285. not for a suicide risk

If they took the bolt out of his weapon because of concern for his mental state, he shouldn't have sheets or a pillow. Far better that he do without than be found strangled by his sheets or sufficated by his pillow either by his own doing or anyone else's.

I'm not seeing why it's a problem that he's getting anti-depressants either. He needs them, and good for the military doc that prescribed them. What, people WANT him to suffer depression? Prescribing anti-depressants to a depressed person is now considered torture?

[Vattel]

52. nonsense--as practiced in US, it is torture

[defendandprotect]

55. Let's be clear ... Manning is a political prisoner in US ... and being tortured....

[Occam Bandage]

61. He is neither. He is a prisoner because he committed a crime, and an egregious one at that.

He committed the largest act of espionage in world history. That is why he is being held. To call him a "political prisoner" is to cheapen the thousands of actual political prisoners in the world—the people who are imprisoned because of what they believe. Manning violated a law, and a law that every country on earth possesses.

[defendandprotect]

138. We have corrupt and criminal government which has given us these wars ....

those who act in good conscience against them are political prisoners --

and the conditions under which Manning is being kept which I presume you read

and are familiar with -- are TORTURE. Phyical and Psychological TORTURE.

[Occam Bandage]

160. That is not what "political prisoner" means. You cannot arbitrarily redefine words. nt

[defendandprotect]

204. A person imprisoned for holding or advocating dissenting political views --

Evidently, you have no clue what it means -- ???

American Heritage Dictionary --

political prisoner

NOUN:

A person who has been imprisoned for holding or advocating dissenting political views.

and ...

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AqoFv3uKB4L_VQSeKcQpGsmbvZx4?fr=fp-yie8-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF8&p=political%20prisoner%20definition

[Occam Bandage]

253. Correct. Manning is not being held because of his political views.

He is being held because he leaked classified documents. And don't try to claim that his political views made him commit his crime. By that logic an abortion bomber is a "political prisoner."

[defendandprotect]

313. Humorous ... however, why did he LEAK classified docs ... for the fun of it?

And don't try to claim that his political views made him commit his crime.

Really ... :rofl:

How many would agree that lying about WMD is a crime -- ?

but Bush isn't in prison --

How about TORTURE -- who's in prison for that -- ?


By that logic an abortion bomber is a "political prisoner."

And, I'm sure they see themselves as politica; prisoners -- !!


The question is, how many informed citizens would agree with these wars being

"crimes" -- and how many would agree Roe vs Wade is a "crime."

[DirkGently]

326. You mean he's been accused of a crime. And its significance as "espionage" is highly questionable.

[Pavulon]

62. Please. Manning is confessed scum, bradass87 did the crime, so he WILL

die an old man in federal prison. Not fun prison like butner where bernie madoff is, but sad prison like Florence or DB Leavenworth.

He will serve his ENTIRE sentence in isolation as he is a security risk.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

164. Bullshit

Do you really think the Iraqis didn't know about the atrocities that Manning documented?

Do you really believe that telling about war crimes is worse than committing them?

If that is the case, I have to ask what is wrong with this nation?

[Pavulon]

194. so cables on pakistani HEU are war crimes how? he is a common thief

who stole whatever his masters told him to. That will do him in.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

200. What are we doing in Pakistan, anyway?

We have no business ANYWHERE in that region. Al Qaeda (if it exists as a formal organization and isn't just another CIA fabrication) was not a problem in Pakistan before we started messing around in the region.

[defendandprotect]

213. Thank you -- so true --

and Al Qaeda is pretty much a CIA fabrication --
it was an old Arab organization which Nazis picked up and then
turned over to CIA after WWII --

During Carter administration, US/CIA "created" the Taliban/Al Qaeda financing it
thru ISI-Pakistan --

and US also CREATED those horrifically violent Muslim textbooks we heard so much
about on TV -- watching children recite and chant the disgustingly violent teachings!
US wrote, created, printed these text books and shipped them into the Middle East --
in order to create a more violent form of Islamic teachings!


Textbooks are the second article --

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_interview_shor...


A N D . . .


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.



Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.htm

[Pavulon]

214. Trying to secure 90% enriched uranium with their help. You know the stuff

that was so simple to make a nuke with they never tested the Uranium gun device..

And yes we have been interacting with pakistan since is became a country.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

220. But only because the Russians were courting India

It's all that Cold War nonsense, with world leaders acting like 12-year-old boys playing Risk.

[Pavulon]

236. This was ongoing. They had fissile material sitting around poorly secured

you know the home of AQ Kahn. but hey, its all in the open now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

241. Not in 1947 they didn't

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

249. hit cablesearch, read the doc. this was ongoing joint effort

and manning and assange fucked it up.

[Raksha]

327. Putting you on my ignore list.

Manning is NOT "scum" and your punitive authoritarian attitude makes me sick.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

179. Is it a crime to leak information about wars that are themselves crimes?

In other words, is it a crime to reveal a crime?

[Pavulon]

216. Well considering that 250,000 documents dont cover that

your point is moot. Even if he got a pass for anything that looked war crimey he still has the other 249,990 documents to server time on.

he is fucked.

[defendandprotect]

314. Nope .. and that's why I say Manning is a US political prisoner ....

:)

[DirkGently]

325. When was he convicted of those things?

[stray cat]

8. Nor 1000 virgins

[TexasObserver]

9. The treatment of Manning is despicable, but it's who we have become.

The US in this century has been extremely disappointing.

[Pavulon]

18. he is just like ames, pollard, and the long line of scum that proceeded them.

really.. he is no hero.

[Agony]

33. No he is not just like ames/pollard, they took large sums of money.

Yes, really he is a hero.

[Pavulon]

35. fuchs and rosenburgs did it for their beliefs, like manning.

still found guilty. they should have shot fuchs.

[Puregonzo1188]

48. And Ethel wasn't guilty and the US government knew it,

but hoped by murdering her they could get her husband to confess. She also wasn't killed by the first electric shock, she hand to be unshackled, have a doctor declared alive and than shocked twice more.

[Pavulon]

56. They were guilty and did it for reasons other than money, and that made no difference

not splitting hairs, the point was that mannings motive for what he did will not prevent his punishment.

[Agony]

72. No not like Manning, they were accused of giving away nuclear secrets.

Manning allegedly leaked dip cables. Manning IS a hero. Ellsberg sez so, I take him at HIS word.

[Pavulon]

79. Manning dumped 11,000 classified documents unrelated to war crimes or some such

and the scum I listed were to point out that not everyone who has been executed for espionage did it for money.

[Agony]

98. Fuch was not executed and the Rosenburg "execution" was

a crime* in itself. Certainly not a rock solid Democratic Party value thingy...

*opinion

and now we know thanks to the heroes (allegedly) Bradley Manning and Wikileaks that Mervyn King plotted banks bailout by four cash-rich nations.

[Pavulon]

101. Fuchs should have been executed on the spot. He went on to

start a bomb program in china as well. All for a dead idea.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

223. The documents he dumped contained stuff that needed to be made known

Ignorance is not bliss.

When I was growing up, we were told that one thing that was bad about the Soviet Union was that everything was secret. Turns out we're the same in that respect.

[Pavulon]

229. Really, so all of that needed to be public. Like that HEU we were working with pakistan to secure..

that will not happen now. Raytheon WILL get a multibillion BPI contract because of the disclosure of the 19 icbm's Iran has, that needed to be in public in the middle of START treaty.

not so sure.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

245. And why does Iran have missiles?

Because U.S. forces are in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, and the Persian Gulf. (That is, U.S. forces have them surrounded on all sides.) How silly of them to feel threatened. :sarcasm:

I don't like the Iranian government, but I completely understand why they're arming themselves.

[Pavulon]

248. read the leaked doc, killing jews would be a safe bet

they cant hit us with them yet. That dropped monday last week, call options on RTN were in order within 12 hours.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

250. Your post is incoherent

:shrug:

[Pavulon]

270. cablesearch has the document. you can read it.

Iran has ICBM's designed to deliver nuclear weapons.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

308. Well, good for them

That's one country the U.S. won't invade.

[TexasObserver]

74. Charming.

[defendandprotect]

57. Not "we" ... but those controlling our government --

[MineralMan]

11. You're right. There isn't. In fact, there's probably a very long

prison sentence for him in his future.

Here's the deal: Anyone in the military who works with classified information is fully informed of the penalties for releasing that information to unauthorized people. I know this is true, because I worked with classified information while serving in the USAF. Not only were we briefed on the law, but signed a document saying that we knew and understood those laws.

In my case, I had a very annoying out-of-country travel restriction that restricted my travel for 10 years after leaving the USAF, aside from the criminal penalties should I have released classified information.

Now, I understand the concept of civil disobedience, and have been arrested while engaging in it. If you know the law and break it, as a matter of conscience, you must be ready to accept the penalties. That is at the core of civil disobedience.

Military law is harsh at times. The penalties for what this young man did are severe. He knew those penalties, I guarantee. He released the information, knowing those potential penalties. Now, he is facing the situation. In the spirit of civil disobedience, he has alerted many others of what he did, and possibly why he did it. He will have his day in court, where he can present his moral views of what he did.

He will probably be convicted of this, and will spend much of the rest of his life in prison. That was his choice. It is a mistake to deny him his choice and the penalties of it. Those who carry out civil disobedience often pay for their convictions with penalties, in order to make their moral choice public and open for discussion.

[MH1]

67. Thank you for a reasoned and informed response.

Some days they are hard to come by. :)

[Vattel]

230. Doing x knowing the penalty for x doesn't entail that the penalty for x is just.

[MineralMan]

322. And I didn't I say it was just.

The point of my post, which you may have missed, is that civil disobedience accomplishes nothing unless there is an arrest. Personally, I find the laws against military personnel disclosing classified information to make a lot of sense. I doubt that this PFC even looked at more than a minuscule fraction of what he handed over. It was a wholesale disclosure of classified material. I don't know what everything is that was disclosed. You don't know. Neither did the young man who disclosed it.

He did disclose, it, though, in full knowledge that his action might well end in his imprisonment for many years. He is now awaiting prosecution for his actions. You may agree with what he did. Obviously, this young man agrees with what he did. He will receive no medal from anyone for it. Instead, he will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

If there is some sort of heroism here, which I doubt, it is that he subjected himself knowingly to those penalties. I'm not sure what his motivations were, though. He hasn't told us. He'll have a chance to do that at his court martial.

[Taverner]

12. True,

Feel free to crash at my place BTW

[jeanpalmer]

13. Release him

He's a whistleblower. Blew the lid off crimes and incompetence. He should be getting the medal of freedom, instead of the corporate hacks and celebrities Obama has selected.

[Pavulon]

16. He will leave federal prison in a bag. a very long time from now..

DB or Florence , it will not be a fun life.

[TheKentuckian]

21. meh...you never can tell. Most likely by far bur not certain.

[Occam Bandage]

24. He committed the largest act of espionage in world history.

He's not going to be released until he's dead.

[Capitalocracy]

26. Exposing crimes is not a crime.

Confidentiality does not apply to war crimes.

[Pavulon]

28. the other 249,998 cables that make no mention anything related to any "crime"

he can do the time on those. Like the program in pakistan where we were trying to secure HEU..

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

66. Yeah, because I dont choke on the nonsense of a guy calling for the Democratic President to resign.

and feel free to look up my posts on prop 8 and legalization of drugs. Where in the platform is defending a criminal listed? You dont like what I say because I am correct.

Manning will die in custody. He MAY flip on assange who will probably be charged with conspiracy. The banner says Democratic Underground not 4chan, not wikileaks, so until told otherwise I will feel free to call it as I see it.

Cheers.

[sudopod]

70. Things aren't true just because you repeat them over and over.

Most of us learn that pretty early in life. Also more wanking about extra-special superjail. Surprise!

The guy gets asked a question about whether or not officials should take responsibility for breaking the law by a reporter. He answers "If they're spying on the UN in contravention of US and international law, then Yes."

OH GOD HE HATES THE PRESIDENT DOWN WITH THE ANARCHIST! GRRRRRR!

But this is par for the course.

[Pavulon]

75. Which part of these links is untrue?

you support the assange agenda, I do not. Its that simple. I am not convincing you that he is playing a game and you will not convince me he is jesus christ and a hero.

He is meddling with affairs he does not control, breaking diplomatic channels because he wants to. Calling for a sitting POTUS to resign. Assange can go fuck himself.

assange asks for obama to resign..
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20024658-503543.html

[sudopod]

80. How dare he meddlie with affairs he doesn't control!

He should be sure to be someone who is properly important before he has an opinion!

Assange agenda, lol.

It's not as fabulous as the gay agenda or as subversive as the liberal agenda, but I'd bet that it's better than the agenda of the Powers That Be, provided it goes beyond "Look what these fucks are doing in your name."

[Pavulon]

81. All information must be free...

assange is not press, he is an intelligence agency with no state protector. He is working towards his goals and motives and using stolen classified information to do that.

So no , I dont agree with that. He should get elected if he wants to fuck up our political system. Like the rest of the doofuses on the hill they earned the right to be making diplomatic calls by being elected by voters. Assange did not.

BTW my futures in RTN still look good. Thanks to the manning dump they will get a multibillion BPI contract for Iranian missiles.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

88. And dumping 250,000 random cables about any and everything has nothing

to do with that. Bush is going to be held as one of the worst presidents ever. He made horrible calls, but he will not go to the hague or some such. Its not how the system works.

If assange used manning and directed him to collect data he was at minimum a conspirator. At that point he could be the head of the RTNDA and it would not stop the charge.

The publication is protected, not the act of espionage. There is the problem for the new hero duo of manning assange.

[sudopod]

90. If it's so obvious

then why wasn't he charged on day one?

Clearly you should be working for DoJ.

[Pavulon]

92. Because the threat of the charge is more valuable. They are negociating

with him. They want bigger fish would be my bet.

[sudopod]

95. LOL

Sure thing. Like the Chinese dissidents he works with, and for whom he serves as a public face? Bjorn Bjornigen Bork-Bork who runs their Swedish server room?

Maybe he knows where Osama is?

[Pavulon]

100. No but he may choose to turn states evidence

to take the death penalty off the table or to serve out his time in Florence vs Leavenworth. There are plenty of charges to keep him in prison until he dies.

[sudopod]

104. Who? Assange? nt

[Pavulon]

110. manning may flip so he does not head to USP terre haute to be executed

federal death row is not like the states, you go there you die before the next season of mad men comes out. (not really but pretty zippy)

[Name removed]

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[Zorro]

71. How ironic

A Wikileaks supporter upset that the mods haven't tombstoned a poster for expressing opinions they disagree with.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

77. your link is broken.. here ya go..

http://www.google.com/search?q=pavulon+democratic+underground&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Occam Bandage]

29. Most of what's been released has nothing to do with crime of any sort.

Even if he could try to make such a claim for a dozen or so documents he released, there's still another quarter-million documents he illegally leaked that had nothing to do with war crimes whatsoever.

[sudopod]

99. By giving them to news organizations, which aparently are the journalism gold standard.

No one's ever done that before...OH WAIT

[Occam Bandage]

102. That doesn't make sense to me. Explain, if you could? nt

[sudopod]

107. The cables aren't all on the internet in plain text.

The ones that are out there have been vetted by the news organizations such as the New York Times and the Guardian. Releasing through them is clearly parallel with the historical Pentagon Papers release.

As far as what else they have, no one knows but them. The DoD publicly stated that it has been trying to assess what else might be on that list. However, Wikileaks has stated that what has been released is only a very small fraction of the total in their posession.

Therefore, they have not released a quarter million documents.

[Occam Bandage]

111. Manning is the subject of this conversation, not WikiLeaks.

When discussing what crime Manning has committed, it doesn't matter what WikiLeaks has released to the papers. What matters is what Manning has released to WikiLeaks.

[sudopod]

114. Sorry, getting conversations crossed, I thought we were talking about Assange.

Mea culpa.

[Occam Bandage]

116. No worries. This thread is tangled. nt

[msanthrope]

39. Maybe Wikileaks should pay the 100k to the Manning defense fund they promised?

It's a start...

[sudopod]

41. You too.

Christ.

[msanthrope]

43. I am sorry, what? n/t

[Luminous Animal]

45. It was $50,000 and I was at a rally this evening WITH Manning's defense organisers

who confirmed it. And Wikileaks has paid it. The problem was that Wikileaks lawyers were advising against it because they were afraid that the U.S. government might attempt a conspiracy charge. A fear that is looking more likely than not.

[Pavulon]

60. Does bradley have to give the money back if testifies against assange?

in a conspiracy trial to avoid the death penalty..

[Luminous Animal]

65. Stupid question. Journalist pursue sources all of the time.

[Pavulon]

69. No really, if he turns states evidence when assange is indicted on conspiracy

at a minimum, does he still get wikileaks support? If assange ran him like a source then he has no protection. the boingboing chats hint at that, if manning was a gofer than Assange has problems.

Mannings logs and communications will doom him.

You can bet he has been informed he is looking at death penalty charges as well. He may want to consider an option that removes that from the table.

[sudopod]

82. Get proven wrong

Change the subject.

[Luminous Animal]

93. Yes. He may buckle under torture to say anything the government wants him to say.

[sudopod]

96. An excellent point!

Sensory deprivation and involuntary dosing with psychoactive drugs can do that, easy as you please.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/06/07/sensory_deprivation

[Pavulon]

103. He has been taped since he was arrested, you know like OJ (redux) and MJ

that way when this comes up they can hand over video showing no one pulled his fingernails out.

Solitary confinement is something manning should get used to.. I think the hardest part of florence would be never seeing the sun again.

[sudopod]

109. You really get off on that, don't you. nt

[Pavulon]

113. Why would they not tape him to avoid this drama.

he is a model case for the federal death penalty if so charged. I bet this happens right around 2012, that cant be to helpful for manning.

[msanthrope]

73. So now it's 50k? Where's the proof it's been paid? Manning's site doesn't list it.

www.bradleymanning.org

[cherokeeprogressive]

86. Jeff Paterson, who runs Manning's defense fund, says they hadn't paid a penny as of yesterday.

"Paterson said that despite WikiLeaks' promise to help fund Manning's legal defense, the organization has not forwarded any funds. CBS News reported last week that WikiLeaks had promised $20,000. But Paterson says that he recently received a brief message from the Wau Holland Foundation in Germany, the main fundraising platform for WikiLeaks, stating that the foundation faces a possible audit by German authorities and that it cannot promise any funds at this time."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/15/bradley-manning-wikileaks-charges-_n_797276.html

[msanthrope]

91. Are we surprised that Wikileaks is lying? n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

97. Not at all, actually

And, I have to say I agree with Pavulon's assessment that Assange will likely face conspiracy charges. All the government has to prove is that Assange and Manning had contact during the period Manning was stealing the documents.

[msanthrope]

105. I direct you to the fourth specification of the first charge of the Manning charge sheet.

It will be the underlying act for conspiracy to commit espionage--which I have argued previously is the charge Assange would face, if any. (see, Rosenbergs, et. al.;)

http://www.bradleymanning.org/3163/charge-sheet-html/

[sudopod]

112. ?

"SPECIFICATION 4: In that Private First Class Bradley E. Manning, U.S. Army, did, between on or about 19 November 2009 and on or about 3 April 2010, at or near Contingency Operating Station Hammer, Iraq, violate a lawful general regulation, to wit: Paragraph 4-5(a)(3), Army Regulation 25-2, dated 24 October 2007, by wrongfully adding unauthorized software to a Secret Internet Protocol Router network computer."

[EFerrari]

119. Wikileaks money is being tied up on purpose all over the world

and they're having trouble even though their donations are way up.

And instead of blaming our screwed up government for doing this to them illegally, you blame THEM?

Are you freakin kidding me?

[Pavulon]

139. Assange got that cash real quick.. Maybe he is concerned about manning

testifying against him.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Our government imprisons a whistleblower while protecting indicted CIA thugs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=19034&mesg_id=19034

[defendandprotect]

142. Exactly ... looking at the government treason committed and these "leaders" are free ....

from Kissinger to Cheney -- and all those keeping these wars going for the MIC --

I doubt anyone even tries to talk about "democracy" or "threats from Iraq" any longer --

because it would be complete farce!

[defendandprotect]

51. Manny in solitary confinement is TORTURE .... what can we do to help????

[Pavulon]

54. Thats torture? really.. then real torture must be what then?

manning will be living out the rest of his life in solitary.

[sudopod]

87. And you keep repeating yourself why?

Are you trying to get a reaction? Trying to satisfy your prision jones till you can see MSNBC this weekend?

[Pavulon]

89. Because real torture is bad and illegal. Solitary confinement is how scum serves

out prison terms in places like Florence. No one shedding tears for the unabomber or mafia guys in florence now. These claims are baseless and will just be referenced by defense at trial. they are a ploy.

[sudopod]

94. People can come to their own conclusions about whether or not sensory deprivation is torture.

Also, conflating a 22 year old computer nerd with mass murderers really proves your point, and carrying on about how great it is to be cruel to prisoners totally doesn't make you look like a creepy bastard.

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. Sensory deprivation? This would be funny if you weren't serious.

You need to go do some research on what "sensory deprivation" is. Solitary confinement IS NOT sensory deprivation.

You are way too funny for this room...

[sudopod]

117. Because you're an expert, right?

People who disagree are just a bunch of Murica-hatin' hippies that just don't understand how the world works.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/solitaryconfinement/

An article by people who aren't Serious People.

[EFerrari]

123. And here's one of the doctors that Greenwald cited

Hellhole
The United States holds tens of thousands of inmates in long-term solitary confinement. Is this torture?
by Atul Gawande March 30, 2009


Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande#ixzz1glEiLLXo

There was another citation I looked up, it's was a UN commission that said it leads to BRAIN DAMAGE precisely from sensory deprivation. The pertient section is "Control Units":


II. CONTROL UNITS

A. RELEVANT HUMAN RIGHTS

Article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states: “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.”

B. ANALYSIS.
Brain damage. Without sustained social interaction, the human brain may become as impaired as one that has incurred a traumatic injury. …One of the paradoxes of solitary confinement is that, as starved as people become for companionship, the experience typically leaves them unfit for social interaction.” (Atul Guwande, New Yorker, March 30, 2009)



C. VIOLATIONS.

A study of a hundred randomly selected inmates at California’s Pelican Bay supermax prison, noted that after months or years of complete isolation, many prisoners “begin to lose the ability to initiate behavior of any kind—to organize their own lives around activity and purpose.”… “Chronic apathy, lethargy, depression, and despair often result. In extreme cases, prisoners may literally stop behaving,” becoming essentially catatonic. (Craig Haney, a psychology professor at the University of California at Santa Cruz)

Such debasement of human beings clearly violates the intent of Article 7 of the ICCPR.

D. RECOMMENDATIONS.

1. Current practice of prolonged isolation in control/segregation units should be stopped completely.
2. There should be narrowly defined criteria for placement into control/segregation units so that they are used only for prisoners who are the most serious threats to safe and humane operations of correctional facilities. Placement in such units may never be done for prisoners with known psychiatric problems.
3. There should be a clearly articulated system in place for prisoners to work their way back to open population settings over a reasonable period.
4. The conditions inside the cells must not lead to adverse sensory deprivation, overstimulation, or disorientation, due to lack of natural light or excessive sound/noise/music. Deprivation of food, water or sleep, or spatial disorientation must be avoided at all costs. Restraints should not be used for punishment.
5. The mental health of all prisoners who are in control/segregation units should be regularly reviewed by properly trained and certified mental health professionals. If, in the opinion of these professionals, the inmates need treatment, it should be provided immediately, including transfer to a psychiatric setting if necessary.



http://www.internationalcure.org/UPR_USA.htm#UPR_II

[The Midway Rebel]

121. Solitary, white walls, white ceiling, white floors, bright flourescent lights 24,7

Sounds like sensory deprivation to me. You should do some research yourself. Add to that, forced to take mid altering drugs, no exercise, no sheets, no pillows. Yeah, sounds like torture to me. Perfectly legal I'm sure but torture nonetheless.

[Pavulon]

124. He can join Robert Hanssen in florence, they say that place is

very quiet.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

133. I really dont like the prison is torture meme. its silly, lots of criminals

from petty to big time spent time there.. manning earned it.

[sudopod]

137. You haven't yet responded to any of the articles EFarrari or I have linked.

You aren't interested in doing anything other than stir shit, just like what was said in .

[Pavulon]

141. That solitary is torture. My response is no its not. This is all crap for his defense to bring up

in trial. He does not have a pillow, so Amnesty International should be called. That is silly.

[NuclearDem]

143. Prison isn't torture

Solitary confinement 23 hours a day is.

[Pavulon]

151. Well fuck we are torturing all kinds of people as are other countries with prisons

prison sucks, solitary sucks, because something is not fun does not make it torture. Solitary has never been added to the LEGAL definition of torture.

Either way, manning will be serving the rest of his life in that manner.

[NuclearDem]

207. No, it's not torture because it's "not fun"

It's torture because it slowly destroys your will and mentally harms you.

And just because it isn't in the legal definition of torture now, doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

[Pavulon]

218. He can read books, draw pictures and live a happy life next to Hannsen

happy little peas in a pod. seriously, prison time will never be called torture.

[sudopod]

221. "Ignore reply,

repeat myself"

--Pavulon

[NuclearDem]

226. And again you completely ignore everything I've said

I've never said prison time is torture.

I've said holding someone in solitary while they await a judge before even going to trial is torture.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

247. I answered the poster, multiple times. Just did not tell them what they wanted to hear

his conditions are not torture. poster has their position, i have mine. that simple. manning's life will suck from now on, he is an adult and made decisions. he is not a political prisoner, he is not being tortured because GG says he is, he is not christ as posted upthread.

Banned for calling out a criminal and a blackmailer (manning and assange) odd.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

269. So does the national guard make me a "millitary"

type.. come on that is weak and also incorrect. I post shit some people dont like. i dont love hugo and think obama is not a complete sellout fuckup so that pisses people off. so what.

As for gun violence advocating decrim on all drugs and letting people out is pretty progressive. Not just weed, all of it.

The vast majority of people in prison have no reason to be there. It is a monumental waste and destructive to entire segments of the population.

[NuclearDem]

259. No, it's not "I have my position and you have yours"

It's "I've presented evidence to support my position, you've done nothing but repeat yourself and say that prison isn't torture because you say so".

Just give us evidence, facts, a medical journal, an anecdote, ANYTHING. I just don't want to hear about "Manning will be there for the rest of his life" or a list of the Florence inmates Manning will be with for the billionth fucking time.

[Pavulon]

243. no really its not. he is a security risk. when he goes to florence he will have no telco

and no computers. just because you dont like something (or a poster) does not mean its illegal or torture. I believe he is still in the military and therefore not subject to the same rules as a person who steals money from a bank.

[cherokeeprogressive]

239. From the World English Dictionary...

Sensory Deprivation: "an experimental situation in which all stimulation is cut off from the sensory receptors"

So no, it doesn't sound like sensory deprivation to me. What Manning's situation sounds like, "white walls, white ceiling, white floors, bright flourescent lights 24/7", is an assault on the senses, not deprivation of them.

[Name removed]

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[cherokeeprogressive]

282. 49 actually, but thanks for asking.

And you don't get to call not having a TV, radio, or someone to talk to sensory deprivation just because you support Bradley Manning.

Please find me something, anything that says sensory deprivation is not having TV, radio, or a conversation partner.

"The isolation tank, or Restricted Environmental Stimuli Therapy (REST) Tank, was invented by John Lilly in 1954 as a way to test the effects of sensory deprivation. Inside an isolation tank, a person floats in salt water that is the same temperature as the skin in order to deprive the skin of the feeling of hot or cold. The tank is usually without light, reducing the sense of sight, and is often soundproof as well. The sense of smell is frequently reduced in sensory deprivation tanks by eliminating the use of chemicals with odors, like chlorine, to treat the water."

Does that sound anything at all like what Manning's current situation can be described as?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-sensory-deprivation.htm

[sudopod]

290. look downthread.

It's all covered.

[cherokeeprogressive]

295. No, it isn't. Nice try though.

[The Midway Rebel]

246. Yeah. Get back to me when you have read some of the links posted in this thread.

Scientific research trumps your opinion.

ETA: Here, imma help you out. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/solitaryconfinement

[cherokeeprogressive]

262. Yeah, I guess you picked up on the fact that the term "sensory deprivation" in the link you provided

was spoken by the fucking reporter and NEVER by the professor, right?

Scientific research on who's part? Yours, or the wired.com reporters?

[The Midway Rebel]

320. Google is you friend.

"scholarly articles mental effects of solitary confinement"

Not hard.

[Pavulon]

108. Nothing cruel about florence, it just is not fun. Not like manning will ever be genpop

someone would kill him. He will live the rest of his life in solitary. The list of people living in florence is impressive. Manning has moved up in the world if he gets to go there to die.

Manning knew what he was doing, he confessed it. So now he can be bradass and hang out (but never speak to) the worst people we have in prison. Robert Hanssen is there, they can swap tales.

[NuclearDem]

122. Because solitary confinement obviously isn't torture

:sarcasm:

http://campusprogress.org/articles/guantanamo_in_new_york_city/

"Electroencephalography (EEG) studies, which date back to the early 1960s when the Vietnam War inspired a surge of interest in solitary confinement by psychologists, consistently show that after only a week of solitary confinement a prisoner’s brain waves slow. After months, further brain abnormalities develop rendering a prisoner with symptoms as severe as someone who has suffered Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) which is caused by a serious blow to the head.

...

The psychological toll of solitary confinement is just as serious as the physical one. Senator John McCain, who famously lived in solitary confinement as a POW during the Vietnam War, describes it as worse than physical torture. “It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment,” he says."

But no, it's obviously not torture if it allows you to get your armchair revenge on a guy you don't like. :eyes:

[Pavulon]

129. Robert Hanssen has been there for a long time. He will die there, just like manning

they may even be neighbors in the same complex, but will never speak to each other.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

136. Everyone at florence is in solitary. all of them. they are all scum like manning

and they are isolated from each other. That is a probable location where manning will be sent to die.

[Name removed]

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[sudopod]

144. Obvious [Message Removed] is obvious

google "site:democraticunderground.com pavulon"

I'm happy just as everyone sees what you and others are trying to point out.

[Pavulon]

147. nope. and people are in solitary all over. People who can not be in genpop

are in solitary in county lockup. Some for their protection, others because the earned the privileged.

Torture has never legally included solitary confinement. Never. Thats the proof its a legal definition that does not include those conditions.

If they waterboard him, page me stat..

[sudopod]

152. Places like Florence are sick and wrong.

We already have a Gitmo on our shores.

Maybe this farce will shine light on that as well.

[Pavulon]

154. He will be lucky to be in florence. DB

at Leavenworth is true old school shit prison time. He fucked himself completely and there is no getting out of his future.

[sudopod]

156. I'll trade a broken nose for a broken mind and a crushed spirit

any day of the week.

[NuclearDem]

157. Solitary in prison for a convicted criminal is one thing

Solitary confinement for months for a guy who hasn't even been before a judge is something else.

Take it from a guy with experience, who actually KNOWS how the prison system works--people in solitary in county are usually there to await trial for crimes they wouldn't want to be in genpop for. And they usually don't have to wait more than a week for it to come. Even then, they still have the option of getting into other sections of the prison like rehab programs that allow human interaction, but where their safety is less at stake.

Now, if we go by what you said, that the military is attempting to get a confession or to get Manning to testify against Assange, then keeping him in solitary would be torture.

Solitary confinement has the scientifically-proven effect of harming a person's mental well-being, even to the point of the same damage inflicted by a traumatic brain injury. And since the military wants to get Manning to testify against Assange, keeping him in solitary for months will do nothing but drive him mad and break his will.

You know, just like the NVA did to American POWs.

[sudopod]

158. How does that photoshopped picture go?

It's not fascism if we do it?

[Pavulon]

161. Please dont mention POWs in the same sentence as this turd. He is being held

in solitary because he is a security threat and other inmates probably want to kill him. Manning can never be in genpop, ever. Manning confessed online so while the court has to treat him as innocent, i dont. He is guilty as shit and deserves the time he is going to get.

He will spend the rest of his life in solitary, which is in a way, worse than the death penalty.

[sudopod]

166. So life in solitary is a fate worse than death but isn't torture?

K

[Pavulon]

175. Its no fun. I would bet on that. Lifting weights and watching cable

is not in manning cards.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

182. Sure I do. I;m not on his jury

so I am legally and morally able to speak of him as a criminal and as a low human being. He swore his oath and signed the forms and dishonored that. He can come and sue me, when he is found innocent and nothing I said is true. He falls under the all enemies domestic part of that in my mind, lower shit than a civilian who stole it. Never mind following orders and UCMJ part. He swore that oath and pissed on it.

Its not torture because you say it is. There are people all over in solitary and no one was bitching about this until manning came along.

Manning will spend his life that way.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

191. he defines enemy of the constitution. he dumped 250,000 unredacted

diplomatic cables. Cant do much worse than that without really putting effort into it. He was completely indiscriminate in what he stole and released.

If it were all "war crime" stuff I would be inclined to believe the morals argument.

[NuclearDem]

198. And how did that shame the Constitution or disrespect it?

Tell me, I'd be THRILLED to hear an answer to this. Because I'm in favor of the leak, and I'm pretty sure I'm dedicated to upholding the Constitution.

Disobeying the orders of the officers appointed over you or the POTUS doesn't mean you're an enemy of the Constitution. That sort of fascist bullshit is what the military uses to keep its people in line. They're just men, they can be just as evil as anyone else.

[Pavulon]

205. You didn't sign the forms and listen to the briefing on classified info

then break the shit out of that law (which would be disobeying orders) and then dump it to someone who is calling for the POTUS to quit! Really he dumped it to a man who is trying to get a sitting president to resign. Fucking loons.

That pretty much sums it all up for me.

[NuclearDem]

210. I'm seeing breaking the law, and I'm seeing some (far-fetched) hatred of the President

But I'm STILL not seeing where he shamed the Constitution.

Try again.

[Pavulon]

222. The part where he turns over 250,00 docs to a poon who tells the president to resign

thats the core of it. He broke the democratic process by doing that, no one voted him or assange into a position to blackmail the potus.

[sudopod]

224. The democratic process?

OH HO that's rich.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

[sudopod]

201. Where in the Constitution do we get to be double dealing bastards

subvert other democracies, murder civilians, torture people without trials, and coddle tyrants? If this action ends these atrocities then he upheld his oath.

Shit is broken, and besides which you're moving the goal posts. We went from "He's worse than the Rosenburgs" to "that stuff isn't dangerous and therefore not moral to release."

Which is it?

[Pavulon]

208. Rosenburg is a motive argument. not a crime comparison

they did it for free, and still died for it. Just because he took no money does not make him ineligible to go to prison.

He fucked up diplomatic channels and put stuff in the clear he had no business with. He than gave it to someone who has threatened to release it unredacted and has called for the POTUS to quit! Seriously, how much more is there?

[sudopod]

211. Clearly he's worse than Hitler!

How dare Manning get all jumped up and mess with things he "had no business with." That scruffy Australian nerd who never kissed a girl till his thirties is obviously the most dangerous threat our nation has ever faced, and they both hate America, and they get whatever they have coming. Because freedom, or something.

[Pavulon]

228. not hitler...

[NuclearDem]

190. Doesn't matter what he allegedly did

Here, take a read of the thread I posted earlier about how this sort of revenge porn bullshit is shaming our Constitution:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x24021

Sure, you CAN speak of him like that, that is your right, but it's disgusting. I'm no fan of Manning at all, but I'll assume his innocence until the jury says he's guilty. Do you have ANY idea what it's like to deal with the stigma of being someone charged with a crime and then have people automatically assume your guilt? Well, I do.

So talk big all you want, but the fact is you're pissing all over the rights of the accused and our Constitution (that one, I say again, that you swore to uphold and defend) with this nonsense.

And I'm calling it torture because medical science says a month of it is the equivalent of being repeatedly beaten across the head with a blunt object until you suffer brain damage. I'm saying it's torture because we were taught in SERE that solitary confinement is a preferred method of torture and breaking people's will by armies past and present. And the military can say "security issue" all they want, but they want a confession or his testimony, and the military knows better than anyone else that solitary confinement is one of the most effective ways to break someone's will. So therefore, it's torture.

You're saying it's not torture because it's somebody you don't like, and you don't want to even TRY to come to his defense. You say you will if he's being waterboarded, but that's just a pathetic way to shrug off the conversation.

I'm not arguing for people who have been convicted of crimes and sentenced to life in prison and then put in solitary--the justice system isn't trying to procure a confession out of them.

[Pavulon]

193. He confessed, read it online. his id in siprnet will tie to every cable.

and he will die in prison for what he did. he will never be in genpop, ever. it is out of the question.

[NuclearDem]

196. I don't care if he "confessed online." Until the jury says "guilty", he's innocent

It's how our justice system works. Deal with it. Or do you just not have any faith in our system, and have to pass judgment before the system's even given a chance?

[Pavulon]

199. sure, and if i was on his jury I would approach it that way

but i'm not so he is a criminal to me.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

209. I'm heartbroken. When i call for the potus to resign and threaten blackmail

if i go to jail then i will be a hero too.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

185. So what part of war crime is covered in the cables about Myanmar, Pakistani nuclear material

NATO and the 249,999 documents that dont in any way relate to a potential crime..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

188. Government secrecy is BULLSHIT

Its main purpose is to cover up what governments are embarrassed about or are ashamed to admit to in the open.

Are you old enough to remember Senator Frank Church's hearings about the CIA? The stuff they did that wasn't criminal was just plain stupid.

[Pavulon]

251. Yep, and I remember the CIA was not destroyed. in fact they

were left in place with FISA and other checks. the idea of wikidumping everything would not work for church I would bet.

[sudopod]

256. Implying FISA is a check and not a rubber stamp.

LOL.

[EFerrari]

127. You can write to Amnesty International.

They have a simple contact page. Use it! I did and am encouraging everyone to do that.

Just about every major human rights org has made a statement. Now, we need them to keep making it and louder!

Here's Eff with a compilation of all the orgs that have put out a statement:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x19851

[sudopod]

130. Come on now, Amnesty International?

They aren't Serious People. Serious People recognize that we have to give up certain things to keep our secrets country safe from communism terrorism. Any other point of view is wide-eyed idealism of the worst sort. Besides, many of those people aren't even Americans. Who do they think they are telling us what to do!


;)

[EFerrari]

134. LOL. I bet some of them are even French.

:)

[sudopod]

146. BRB, Freedom Fries are done!

:patriot:

[Freddie Stubbs]

323. Preisdent Obama said that the US will not torture

[Canuckistanian]

63. No one's openly advocating killing Manning

But they are with Assange. Assange is now a hunted man, much as Salman Rushdie was.

But still, I get your point. Manning will have the book thrown at him and will probably spend the majority of his life in jail.

Both of these people were well aware of the risks. But then, what true heroes didn't?

[FourScore]

126. This entire thread has turned very ugly. I thought such disrupting was a banning offense.

My heart goes out to Manning and his family. What he did was foolish, dumb, reckless, illegal and permanent.

But, what has become of America? We have fallen so low...When I read GG's article on Manning's conditions, it broke my heart. Just, plain broke my heart. The kid doesn't deserve that.

[Ellipsis]

145. It's definitely disruptive.

If you take the multitude of redundant comments over the last 48 hours into consideration. I certainly wouldn't considerate it productive dialogue.

[The Midway Rebel]

165. It gets messy

when folks find out the emperor wears no clothes.

[Ellipsis]

177. Perhaps soon we will all jump for joy and then sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya...

at the wake.

[Pavulon]

171. If we all just thought the same it would be so much easier..

we could all take turns posting as each other because we would all say the same thing..

[sudopod]

174. 1) Rejoice in torture

2) Imply opponents are supressing dissent
3) ????
4) PROFIT

[Pavulon]

189. Profit, shit i loose billable hours screwing off here.

seriously google solitary confinement torture, it all astroturfs to manning stories. its manufactured drama.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

197. done for the year. code freeze and customers are all

checked out. he is not in sensory dep, he is just isolated, he can read a book or paint pictures.

[sudopod]

206. Actually, if you paid attention you'd know that no, he can't have books or paint pictures.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

[Pavulon]

240. he gets to read when he goes to florence..

he is still in the military and that means he can be treated differently. too bad for him.

for now he can stew.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[EFerrari]

148. I was somewhat encouraged by Glenn's remarks on the strength

of the case against Manning. He pointed out that the chat the Feds have was with a convicted hacker who has a psychiatric history. Also, that Manning clearly states he has no interest in gaining from the leak but only wanted to the information to be given to the public.

Something I don't think Glenn says, people have been making a big deal about leaking military information in war time. Well, that's when war crimes are committed, in war time. And it was in response to witnessing a war crime and being rebuffed by his chain of command that Manning resorted to leaking.

So, it's not as terribly bleak as the media leads us to believe, imo.

[sudopod]

150. +1 nt

[Pavulon]

153. They have his user id all over siprnet. his motives like rosenbergs

do not matter. one does not have to take money to be charged with espionage.

[sudopod]

155. Because releasing videos of US forces murdering civilians in cold blood

is equivalent to giving Stalin the plans for the atomic bomb.

What world do you live in that those two things are remotely equivalent?

[NuclearDem]

162. A black and white one where all espionage is the same

Whether you leaked some documents or gave the Taliban an entire shipment of machine guns.

[Pavulon]

167. Motive does not matter. He signed the papers , he knows the

consequence for breaking the law. so now he can do his time.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

173. SO everyone at florene is brain damaged? everyone in solitary?

that does not work.

[sudopod]

176. Possibly, yes.

If you'd look at the links that NuclearDem, EFarrari and myself have provided, the scientific consensus leans in that direction.

[Pavulon]

186. Disagree. Sitting next to a person who fixes brains for a living

solitary will not cause physical brain damage. Organic brain death or anything getting hit in the head with a precursor wave will.

Its just not true. google it , all the hits come back to manning. its astroturf.

[sudopod]

195. My best friends is a neuroscientist.

Everything that disagrees with me is LIES.

[Pavulon]

212. Paid my wifes way through med school on NG money

she treats brain injury, never seen a solitary confinement patient. hey there is always a chance..

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

233. Big ass sample of people here in the us, wonder why no journal ever published this

not kooks, jama, or a real medical journal. will check the pile of them in the basement shitter, pretty sure i will not find a case study in this topic.

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

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[NuclearDem]

217. Got a reason why

You ready for this?

Wait...


Wait...


Wait...

Wait...




It's because they're in solitary confinement.

[sudopod]

219. your argument is better. ;) nt

[Pavulon]

235. hey did you see that JAMA article on this? nope, thats because its silly.

there are tens of thousands of people walking around who have dont time in solitary, better get a study together real quick on these poor brain damaged crowd.

[sudopod]

237. JAMA isn't a psychology journal, so a psychology paper has to be pretty epic to get in.

But you wouldn't know that.

However, people have posted a dozen links to the studies that do exactly what you've asked for.

[Pavulon]

254. From the US prison system conducted with prisoners in solitary

i did not see that link. sensory dep is cheating remember.

[Ellipsis]

263. How about an 1890 Supreme court decision

1890 - In an opinion concerning the effects of solitary confinement on inmates housed in Philadelphia (Re: Medley, 134 U.S. 160), U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Freeman Miller finds, "A considerable number of the prisoners fell, after even a short confinement, into a semi-fatuous condition, from which it was next to impossible to arouse them, and others became violently insane; others still, committed suicide; while those who stood the ordeal better were not generally reformed, and in most cases did not recover sufficient mental activity to be of any subsequent service to the community."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?friend=%3C%20riend%3E&navby=case&court=us&vol=134&invol=160&pageno=171

[Ellipsis]

225. I call Bullshit pal...

Hellhole

The United States holds tens of thousands of inmates in long-term solitary confinement. Is this torture?


by Atul Gawa
March 30, 2009


<snip>

And what happened to them was physical. EEG studies going back to the nineteen-sixties have shown diffuse slowing of brain waves in prisoners after a week or more of solitary confinement. In 1992, fifty-seven prisoners of war, released after an average of six months in detention camps in the former Yugoslavia, were examined using EEG-like tests. The recordings revealed brain abnormalities months afterward; the most severe were found in prisoners who had endured either head trauma sufficient to render them unconscious or, yes, solitary confinement. Without sustained social interaction, the human brain may become as impaired as one that has incurred a traumatic injury.

<snip>

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande




Here's some more.


The exponential growth in super-maximum security prisons and Security Housing Units (SHU's) over the past decade has led to a concurrent rise in psychotic symptoms among prison inmates. These symptoms may mimic those of schizophrenia, but with the crucial distinction that they are rapidly reversible. Unfortunately, prisoners suffering from segregation-induced psychosis may be misdiagnosed as suffering from a more chronic mental illness, rather than from a temporary, environmentally induced condition.

Psychotic symptoms among individuals subjected to solitary confinement has been observed as far back as the early 1800s. Between 1854 and 1909, dozens of articles appeared in German journals that described a constellation of segregation-induced psychotic symptoms including hallucinations, paranoid thinking, and persecutory delusions. Indeed, by 1890 the U.S. Supreme Court had condemned solitary confinement on psychiatric grounds, stating that it caused "a considerable number of prisoners" to become "violently insane."

Stuart Grassian, MD, of Harvard University has studied the effects of Security Housing Units on prisoners in Massachusetts. He describes strikingly consistent symptoms that mimic those produced by other sensory-deprivation experiences. These symptoms include:


* Perceptual distortions and hallucinations
* Massive free-floating anxiety
* Impaired concentration and memory
* Acute confusional states, at times associated with dissociation, mutism, and partial amnesia
* Persecutory thoughts, at times reaching delusional proportions
* Impulsive behavior, for example sudden self-mutilation or violence
* Rapid subsiding of symptoms once isolation is terminated


This constellation of symptoms can be induced among individuals with no preexisting psychiatric problems. Not suprisingly, however, the problem is worse for prisoners with preexisting mental disorders. Such individuals almost invariably experience a dramatic worsening of their psychotic symptoms.

For further information:

Stuart Grassian, MD (1983). Psychopathological effects of solitary confinement. American Journal of Psychiatry 140 (11), pp. 1450-1454.

Terry A. Kupers (1999). Prison madness: The mental health crisis behind bars and what we must do about it. Jossey-Bass Publishers.

Bruce Porter (1998). Is solitary confinement driving Charlie Chase crazy? New York Times Magazine, November 8, 1998, pp. 52-58.

[Pavulon]

231. Call away, deal is manning will never be genpop he will die in solitary

in florence of DB. Guess he should have thought about his interactions before he committed the largest act of espionage to date.

you know how many people are in solitary, there is NOTHING in any credible journal on this topic. Hit back with a medical journal, solitary confinement NOT sensory deprivation, that is cheating.

[NuclearDem]

234. How about hitting us back with some evidence?

We've given you nothing but evidence.

You've given us "I know a guy who's married to a girl who does stuff" and "it isn't because I say so". We've cited countless articles.

Got anything for us?

[Pavulon]

257. yep, the sentencing hearing will cover that for you.

manning will serve decades in solitary, probably the rest of his life. I did not see a paper from jama, nature, or any of the other majors using us prisoners. like like.

[Name removed]

272. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

274. post a login to the only link you provided that has a sample.

you can not post oped from the new yorker as fact. there is one link there that has real data and it pay content.

post the contents of that article or provide a user it. or remove you claim of data and fact.

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

287. Your link, your claim. solitary is torture, prove it. your claim, your job

poster linked a list of stuff, one was a usable document with a sample and submitted to a journal. that document is LOCKED.

I'm asking the poster to back that link or take it down.

http://cad.sagepub.com/content/49/1/124.full.pdf+html

[NuclearDem]

293. I have provided evidence that it is torture

You keep saying it's not because, well, you say so. MAYBE, MAYBE if you provided me with even a single link or two with some making an argument that solitary confinement isn't torture, then maybe we could have a productive discussion, since I would read the article and respond to you.

It sure as hell doesn't seem to be working the other way around.

[Name removed]

300. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

305. No actually you did not. When you source wiki or any secondary you owe the data

however your data is behind a paywall. So technically you should take your posts claiming fact down, or pay for access to this sourcing data.

http://cad.sagepub.com/content/49/1/124.full.pdf+html

[Name removed]

275. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

279. Still waiting for that link. you know the only one he posted with a real sample

you cant get on here and declare fact on you side and not provide data. the data is there, it can not be accessed.

[NuclearDem]

281. Still waiting for that....anything that make sense

[Pavulon]

296. Sorry , I am not paying cash, there is oped and peer reviewed data, right now the only thing

up is oped. that is trash. this link has data, cant get to it.

http://cad.sagepub.com/content/49/1/124.full.pdf+html

[Name removed]

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306. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

309. np. once the threads dont indent its impossible to follow.

i have some unpopular ideas but climate change is good science. cheers. 1.30 here enjoyed it.

[sudopod]

310. GG :P

For some reason I imagine we'd get along grand in real life, heh.

[NuclearDem]

315. Despite the raging tempers, appreciated the discussion

Good night. :)

[Pavulon]

307. How about you source your claim. You posted no data, just oped.

http://cad.sagepub.com/content/49/1/124.full.pdf+html

cant get to sample. that means a red mark on your paper.

[Ellipsis]

316. Stuart Grassian Psychiatric effects of solitary confinement

Stuart Grassian Psychiatric effects of solitary confinement (redacted, non-institution and non-inmate specific version of a declaration submitted in September 1993 in Madrid v. Gomez, 889F.Supp.1146. California, USA.


The Pdf for this will open on this if you go to Wikipedia for Solitary confinement.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement

[Ellipsis]

255. Sure

1. ^ Gawande, Atul (2009-01-07). "Is long-term solitary confinement torture?". The New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande. Retrieved 2010-04-16.

2. ^ Published: 4:25PM BST 17 Jun 2009 (2009-06-17). "Army captain was real life 'Cooler King' from The Great Escape". Telegraph. /Army-captain-was-real-life-Cooler-King-from-The-Great-Escape.html. Retrieved 2010-04-16.

3. ^ "UK | Wales | North West Wales | Cooler King recalls Great Escape". BBC News. 2004-03-16.

4. ^ a b Solitary Confinement Torture In The US - Kerness, Bonnie; National Coordinator of the 'National Campaign to Stop Control Unit Prisons', 1998

5. ^ Institution Supplement - Visiting Regulations, USP McCreary (from the Bureau of Prisons, US Department of Justice website. Accessed 2008 May 1.)

6. ^ Visitors, State Prison, Corcoran (CSP-COR) (from the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation website. Accessed 2008 May 1.)

7. ^ Trend toward solitary confinement worries experts - Tyre, Peg; US News, 1998, 9 January

8. ^ a b "Survivors of Solitary Confinement". National Radio Project: Making Contact. 2009-06-03. No. 22, season 12. Direct link to audio file.

9. ^ Stuart Grassian Psychiatric effects of solitary confinement (redacted, non-institution and non-inmate specific version of a declaration submitted in September 1993 in Madrid v. Gomez, 889F.Supp.1146. California, USA. Retrieved 2008-06-18.

10. ^ Grassian Psychopathological effects of solitary confinement American Journal of Psychiatry Online 1983; 140: 1450-1454

11. ^ Haney Mental Health Issues in Long-Term Solitary and "Supermax" Confinement, Crime Delinquency. 2003; 49: 124-156

12. ^ Karen Franklin Segregation Psychosis (from the author's private website, with further references. Retrieved 2008-06-18.

13. ^ Harold I. Schwartz, Death Row Syndrome and Demoralization: Psychiatric Means to Social Policy Ends J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 33:2:153-155 (2005)

[Name removed]

258. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

261. Can't read the only one with a real sample, rest are advocacy shit.

maybe he can post a free login..

[sudopod]

264. Advocacy shit?

lol, true colors.

[Pavulon]

271. If it is oped and has no sample, it is worthless.(nt)

[Pavulon]

260. Pay for your links..

http://cad.sagepub.com/content/49/1/124.full.pdf+html

cant read the only one that is not advocacy bullshit or media oped (npr/yorker)

this has data, link it please.

[NuclearDem]

267. Right, because op-eds can never be based on facts

[Pavulon]

276. Yeah i prefer to see the data, thats what the sample is for.

dont need someone to tell me how to think.

[sudopod]

278. Remember that climage gate stuff that turned out to be a bunch of bullshit.

YEAH, those were the days.

[Ellipsis]

268. Google it....Snarf. It's from Wikipedia

[Pavulon]

273. The only one on that list with a sample is pay content. The rest is oped(nt)

[Ellipsis]

277. No as you would ...Google it... Solitary Confinement. Hahhhaaaahhaa....man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement

[Pavulon]

283. no there is backing document. with real data, how you really source wiki

that document being claimed as supporting this solitary is torture is PAY CONTENT. there is no data until that source is available.

That is how you source, I assume you never wrote a college paper? I posted the link, its the only one without a drama name or oped from a media source.

[sudopod]

288. Pretty much all real science is behind a pay wall.

It is wrong, but that's how the world works. College students can usually get access to it for free through a university subscription via a portal on the school's website.

Derp.

[Pavulon]

291. Well that pretty much nukes his post. You cant post "fact" that backs a "questionable" position

then tell me I have to pay to get real info. derp or not, that is not how stuff works.

[Name removed]

294. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

297. Dont have an ID for that site..(nt)

[Name removed]

284. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

289. Again here is the only document provided that has a sample. It is not accessable

http://cad.sagepub.com/content/49/1/124.full.pdf+html

it would be relevant to your argument. the rest is garbage oped with no backing data.

you beliefs are great in a church, this is not a church.

[sudopod]

292. And you can repeat yourself over and over again

and it won't change the world one whit, though unfortunate it muddies the waters for the low-information types.

[Pavulon]

299. No its pretty clear, poster claimed links and data, has NONE.

so technically he should take it down because it is unsourcable. but he will not do that.

[Name removed]

302. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

304. My kitty gif links work, unlike the posters "fact" on solitary being torture.(nt)

[Ellipsis]

311. I DO like your Kitty Giff.

Stuart Grassian Psychiatric effects of solitary confinement (redacted, non-institution and non-inmate specific version of a declaration submitted in September 1993 in Madrid v. Gomez, 889F.Supp.1146. California, USA.


The Pdf for this will open on this if you go to Wikipedia for Solitary confinement.

[Ellipsis]

312. Lovely Kitty Giff

[Pavulon]

324. One more kitty gif for good measure..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

172. According to the standards established at Nuremberg, NOTHING justifies atrocities

I'd save the epithet "scum" for the guys who were doing the killing.

[EFerrari]

178. Petraeous second in command was investigated for illegal arms sales

but I don't remember anyone calling him a traitor in war time. In fact, I don't think anything happened to him at all. Go figure. :)

[sudopod]

180. I guess some military justice is more uniform than others. nt

:3

[Pavulon]

163. That issue remains closed by the way. Even after his video

reuters still considers their guy killed in action while filming the enemy. Incident is still resolved. He dumped 250,000 unredacted cables with zero concern for their impact.

So yes, he will never leave prison alive.

[jeanpalmer]

286. What's ugly

is what they're doing to Manning. But not surprising. It fits right in with the ugly turn our country has taken the last 10 years. And there doesn't seem to be any respite in the offing.

[Better Believe It]

128. K & R

[jeanpalmer]

266. They're torturing him

They need to break him to get him to turn on Assange. No pillow, no sheets, the regular administration of medications. We have wild animals running our government. Things haven't changed much since Bush.

[Name removed]

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