Basically, We the people, have lost

[salinen]

Almost every indicator points to the downfall of the average American citizen. We could list the numerous disadvantages that have occurred since Reagan, and most decidedly under both Bush's. And now, I'd say, that the template to maintain a weak citizen has been achieved, and it will continue to erode our ability to be a concern of Washington, maybe forever.

The worse it gets for us, the better it's getting for military contractors, Wall St, Banks, media conglomeration, lobbyists, multi-nationals, the chamber of commerce, big pharma, HMO's, and Oil. All these concerns have become our adversaries, because when they get what they want, we don't. And they have the access and the cash and the lobby.

So, I don't see how we break this trend toward less democracy and decent lives. But, I do know something. We must do something that we're not doing now because what we are doing now isn't working.

[Xenotime]

1. Not to mention the gap between the rich and the poor gets wider.

[salinen]

22. That's an indicator

of how bad it has become.

[lib_wit_it]

53. How DARE you, you...you, ...you CLASS WARRIOR!!!

:sarcasm:

[villager]

2. absolutely right -- though I'm wondering if any meaningful "change" can come *before* a top-heavy

...system like our former Republic necessarily collapses under its own weight...

[ladjf]

28. Tax the rich whether they are willing or not. nt

[salinen]

50. The rich decide how much

they are taxed. Not the government they bought.

[ladjf]

68. Of course, you are right. The question is, is there any way to

regain control of the tax rates from the rich?

[Newest Reality]

3. Good points!

One would hope that they would now be obvious. That would save a lot of frustration and false hope, for starters.

When are we ready to call it though, collectively? The points some folks are making about the current state of things are not going to be useful if they only surface as individual opinions. The noise of Fascist TV is blaring and drowning the truth out as best it can, yet we can, at the very least, attempt to come to a consensus from which to think and act.

[xchrom]

4. i think the real thing to think about is your list -- i.e.

'military contractors, Wall St, Banks, media conglomeration, lobbyists, multi-nationals, the chamber of commerce, big pharma, HMO's, and Oil.' -- and have these gone into a state of decline and chaos?

and if so -- what's coming?

i don't think a survivalists dream or anything like that -- but these folks may very well have done themselves in.

[elehhhhna]

51. yep. the internets are already a HUGE gamechanger.

the peeps will rise. history is our friend.

[grasswire]

5. we the people have not yet begun to fight

How can we have lost if we have not fought?

The power still lies with the people if they will begin to express themselves.

[salinen]

17. Why haven't we begun

to fight? Are we waiting for illegal wars, a supreme court appointed president, corporate takeover of government, a raid on the treasury by wall street? If these don't bring about a fight, what will?

[Flubadubya]

52. Looks like it's going to take the "present day middle class American"...

to be starving in the streets before any action is taken against this.

[NorthCarolina]

6. They're not quite done yet though. There's a big chunk of cash in Social Security

that they still need to acquire, and it appears likely they are close to realizing that goal.

[salinen]

18. They'll get it.

What's stopping them? Obama? HaHaHa.

[shanti]

36. don't forget the public pensions

they have that in the crosshairs as well.

[Octafish]

58. Bankrupt Kalifornia!

Don't call me "Scarface."

[Shagbark Hickory]

7. Here's an idea.

How about we temporarily stop breeding until all the job positions are filled?

[Sirveri]

11. ...But I like to 'breed'...

[demwing]

66. Idiocracy

here's another idea - What if we stop breeding, and the other team breeds more?

Ever seen the movie Idiocracy?

Clip 1:
http://www.spike.com/video/first-10-minutes-of/2811209

Clip 2:
http://www.spike.com/video/first-10-minutes-of/2811905

[H2O Man]

8. I've recommended this,

in part for agreement with most of it, in part because it is an obviously sincere message.

I think that we are losing. And quite badly. But I do not agree that we have lost.

The things that we have to do, that we are not doing now, is to exercise the muscles of the Constitution's Bill of Rights. And I in no way am referring to Amendment 2. Not at all.

At present, we sometimes use these muscles. Too often, we use them the way that a couch potato uses his/her muscles during commercials on a television show. We need to exercise them in the manner that makes us bigger, stronger, and faster.

We haven't lost.

[salinen]

19. The system has evolved

to buffer itself against us. "Winning" now has become more difficult.

[H2O Man]

37. Exactly right.

I couldn't agree more.

I'm an old guy now. Your OP and this thread reminds me of something from my younger days. A group of us were meeting with Onondaga Chief Oren Lyons, Paul's nephew. It was a mixed group. And I remember Oren saying that in the near future, a lot of middle class white people were going to find that the US government, fronting of the economic elite, did not care any more about them and their families, than they do about traditional Indian people.

Now, of course, a segment of the white population has been culturally/economically oppressed since 1776. And many other non-Indians have to, obviously. But what Oren said then is true now.

But there is another part to this. Oren wasn't saying the fight is too tough, so we might as well all accept defeat. Rather, the point is that we must find that a wide range of the population has much in common, and we must unite to carry on the fight. More, people of my generation -- and even of the generation following -- should not expect to see the fruits of our labor in our life-times. It won't happen. The machine is too big, too entrenched. But that only makes the work that we do more important.

That isn't a chipper, pleasant reality. But when we accept it for what it is, we are able to focus our efforts correctly, without the distractions that come from unrealistic expectations.

We are losing, and it is discouraging and painful. But we are confident, to quote the Prophet Bob Marley, in the victory of Good over evil.

[OneGrassRoot]

46. Well said, H20 Man and Salinen

We still have choices, and we must choose wisely.

And choose to do things differently than done before, imho.

It's time for our visionaries to step up; it's time for us all to do the same, united as much as possible.

:grouphug:


K&R

[salinen]

48. Yes,

we need visionaries to step up. A new plan to overcome the coming misery.

[Lint Head]

9. There is no We The People just Me the Corporation.

[salinen]

20. Citizens United

It's like having 3 simultaneous wars, instead of 2.

[Catherina]

10. We've only lost if we stop fighting. Rec'd n/t

[blindpig]

12. We have not yet begun to fight.

[Catherina]

14. That's a stunning picture. Where is that? Greece? n/t

[blindpig]

16. Dunno

Thought you might...;-)

All of those saints on the top of the building might be a clue, and kinda rule out Greece, mebbe southern Germany, they liked that sort of thing.

Don't think Reds are storming the Vatican, yet.

[Catherina]

31. It looks like Malaysia. September 2010 but can't be sure.

Malay to English translation

Protest!

when the hand grasped and lifted into the air. yes! protests are starting.


when first starting the day of victory. Impressive flag will be flown as a sign of protest stopped has stopped. emergency has ended. ego has been dropped. protesters tired.


http://killbolkiah.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html?zx=f75e03a71a476df2

[blindpig]

32. Now I'm confused

How do those figures on the top of the building figure in?

[Catherina]

33. I think you're right. I think he just grabbed pictures

because the picture above it is called "greek-communist.jpg"

I tried to hunt down the picture you posted using every trick I know but couldn't. I think you''re right about that being in Europe.

[maryf]

60. rome

see reply 59...art history pays off! :)

[maryf]

57. I think its

Italy in November...



same red smoke, and I think the church in your picture looks Italian...

[maryf]

59. Its close to the Vatican

It's in Roma, San Giovanni in Laterano (St. John Lateran)

[Catherina]

65. You're good. Really good! Thanks n/t

[maryf]

70. My pleasure to serve! and another kick to boot! nt

[rhett o rick]

43. Yes but things will have to get a lot worse before people are ready to fight. nm

[blindpig]

44. I think it's lack of organization...

but the one thing certainly acts upon the other. Necessity will relentlessly bring about what is required.

[starroute]

13. We've certainly lost control of any part of the party apparatus

Electoral politics can pretty much be written off for the time being. Money owns the elections and that's not about to change.

But the whole revolution / take to the streets / torches and pitchforks thing is also dealing from a position of weakness. It's hoping that if you yell loud enough, someone will have to listen -- but they don't.

So there has to be a third alternative. One that will enable we-the-people to parlay whatever strength we have in terms of numbers and economic power into real influence. And one where money cannot trump both numbers and truth.

WikiLeaks represents an attempt to find an alternative channel through which to exercise power -- but I can't see that being a generalizable paradigm. Whistleblowing along is not going to get jobs back or create a genuine social safety net.

So what is the alternative? Given the internet, there's no problem in getting people to come together and undertake collective actions. But once you've got people moving, where do you point them that will have a real effect?

[salinen]

21. I've thought of that

they'll be arrested for sabotage and the sites shut down. Democracy will be Seditious behavior soon.

[ladjf]

29. How could the money topoliticians be monitored to stop payoffs?

[Poboy]

15. Recommend.

[moondust]

23. ...of, by, and for Wall Street. n/t

[salinen]

24. Pocket

pickers.

[girl gone mad]

25. I have hope after what's happened in Ireland.

At some point maybe Americans will push back, too.

[ladjf]

26. But, victory may be possible. nt

[ladjf]

27. A fair tax rate for the rich would mostly solve the problem. That

has occurred several times since WWII. Why was it possible then but not now? Will the rich ever agree to pay more? (or course not). Why is permission from the rich a requirement?

[salinen]

30. They'll pay more taxes

when they feel like it. That'll be never. It's their government. They bought it. It should never have been for sale.

[ladjf]

69. Exactly. But, does that mean it will be impossible to ever regain

control of the taxrates?

[slay]

34. +1

let me know if anyone comes up with a good way out of this shit we find ourselves in now. i agree with everything you said.

[FiveGoodMen]

35. One thing we must do is stop defending "Democrats" when they act like repukes.

[Downtown Hound]

38. You lose only when you give up.

True fighters never quit.

[jotsy]

39. Accurately assessed and very well stated.

Though I'll linger at the notion of downfall, the shift of infrastructural existence is indeed being downgraded, with that I would agree. Our downfall though? That came when the rule of law got abandoned and money became allowed to buy the appearance of justice.

Recommended

[decidedlyso]

40. The only thing that will work is rakes and shovels. Or it's gone.

[RainDog]

41. the problem is that electing one party or the other doesn't matter

because it's the money behind the parties that dictates policy.

therefore, you have abuses that favor the wealthy over 95% of the population no matter which party is in power.

the only difference is in the culture war positions to agitate one base or the other. -- and those differences aren't that great either when both parties support policies that continue to undermine choice for women, that refuse to deal with civil rights for the gblt community in any meaningful way and that continue to pander to the worst religious idiocy this nation has to offer.

it's disheartening, but that's the awful truth.

the only reason to vote is to keep the extremist right wingers from creating social policy that's worse than what we already get with the so-called "left."

[OneGrassRoot]

67. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. We must start thinking WAY outside the box...

Do things outside the political system to detach from the extreme corporate control of everything and work together regarding day-to-day survival, as we also simultaneously work to change the system itself -- loosen the corporate stranglehold on our government -- which will be a long, daunting process, but one which must be undertaken.

:hi: RainDog

:hug:

[donheld]

42. What George Carlin said.

[txlibdem]

55. "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out."

You mean something like:
"Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." --George Carlin, RIP

source: http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnyquotes/a/george-carlin.htm

[conspirator]

45. kick nt

[tomp]

47. this conclusion is becoming inescapable.

the remaining remedies are very bitter medicine. the only possible escape from that bitter medicine is the emergence of an extremely charismatic truth-speaking progressive-left leader, who can inject sense and compassion into the populace and muster the good-hearted and well-meaning into an unstoppable force.

[salinen]

49. I don't agree

If we wait for Mr./Mrs. Charisma, it may be too late. The power working against us won't be swayed, and they're calling all the shots. We need to do things that are not happening right now. And I don't know what those things are, and I dislike using the word "things", but, our plans and ideals regularly spiral out and become null. Maybe having S.S. removed will bring about a change of ideas?

[tomp]

64. i think you misread my post.

i stated that the solution to our current situation is a very bitter medicine UNLESS this charismatic leader comes along. that's the only thing i can think of that will eliminate the need to the other solution(s). it's not like I'm putting faith that he or she will appear, but it might prevent a violent revolution, which some might think of as a good thing.

[Pedalpower]

54. Rogue Supreme Court, Citizens United, and Electronic Voting...

In swift response to a diminishing Conservative electorate, the powers that be have brilliantly devised ways to diminish the powers of those who oppose them.

The Supreme Court is corrupt. When Justices ignore their responsiblility of avoiding even the appearance of impropriety, choosing to fund-raise for right-wing causes, we know that that institution is lost.

Electronic voting machines have been shown to be fatally flawed. Their output is consistently to the right of analog methods of calculating voting trends. That we stand for this is the greatest sign that Americans no longer value their nation.

Citizens United encourages a anonymous Corporate take-over of our system. It says that those with more money have a louder, more influential voice in American Politics. And there are virtually no restrictions on massive broadcasting of false information. Free speech, they call it.

Every time we're gaining an advantage, they change the rules to negate the people's influence. They hate the people.

The main problem is that there is no remedy on the horizon. Even Democrats refuse to address the real issues. They too know that they'll be out after the next election if they don't play ball.

[txlibdem]

56. Those who oppose them... like maybe Keith Olbermann? n/t

[Imagevision]

61. Yeah! we're losing, it's called "The New World Order" do you live under a rock?

[maryf]

62. We must do something!

General Strike sounds good, boycott, cd's, scream your fool head off, but we must do something!

[Imagevision]

63. They control the media, these times and the future is getting heavy...

[maryf]

71. yep, but

it's tough to control hundreds of millions in the streets...let's get it going!