Loughner is NOT mentally ill

[undergroundpanther]

But two things argue seriously against him being a schizophrenic. The first is just how organized his behavior was. His acts alone point to a man doing something on purpose.
The second is that he had two significant encounters with people that day. A police officer stopped Loughner for running a red light. Everything checked out normal. A taxi driver took him to the grocery store, and was astounded later when his passenger turned out to be the killer. In two public interactions, Loughner came across as normal – not as delusional, paranoid, violent, or disorganized.

Finally, I am confronted by this photo – Jason Loughner’s mugshot. It shocked me viscerally when I saw it. And immediately I knew so many who saw it would take it as confirmation of his being mentally ill.

But I ask you to look closer at the photo. At first glance his eyes appear deeply disturbed, and his smile sickening. That was my initial reaction. I too have the mental health model in my head.
But I have known young killers, people who killed others in sudden fits and in deliberate acts.
The crazed look in his eyes? It says little about what he was like before the shooting, when a cop stopped him and a taxi driver got change from him. But this is a man who just shot someone in the head on purpose, and then purposely kept on shooting into a crowd. A man who has just killed.
His eyes show how much he can’t make sense of what happened – of his own act of vehement brutality. That is what I think.
And that smile? Oh, that’s the conscious part. He did what he set out to do, and now he can twist his smile at all of us. He has sown chaos and hurt. He has struck back. It is a smile of defiance and satisfaction. And I do find it sickening.
But it is not the portrait of a man totally subsumed by mental illness.
http://blogs.plos.org/neuroanthropology/2011/01/15/jared-loughner-has-a-violence-problem-not-a-mental-health-problem/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/arizona-shooting/shooting-top-stories/us-shooting-suspects-violent-descent-came-after-chaotic-night-of-farewells/article1871782/page2/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/arizona-shooting/shooting-top-stories/us-shooting-suspects-violent-descent-came-after-chaotic-night-of-farewells/article1871782/page1/
When Mother Jones asks why he thinks his friend would've staged the attack, Tierney suggests, chillingly:
More chaos, maybe. I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/01/10/loughner_bio_background


The Thrill of People "Dressing Me Up"
This man quoted here has a long history of physical assault, including three convictions a three different time for the attempted murder of three different girlfriends. He loved seeing other people's fear of him. Forthcoming about the subjective experience of his violence, he also had more distanced, cognitive labels for his experiences: power and control.

My family's afraid. You know, the people outside my family's afraid. Friends of my family's afraid, you know. Ah, ah, my sister's girlfriend, her and her husband came over one, to the house one night, and, ah, her, ah, her husband, like we got into an argument, you know, and I jumped up, you know, and I grabbed him, slammed him up against the wall, and you know, like, then my sis, here's my sister crying. Here's her, here's this guy's husband, ah wife, this guy's wife, she's crying, you know, and the people in the house are like, you know, I'm like, 'What are these people crying about?' You know. Then, but they're giving me this high, this, this feeling of control or power....I got power now over these people. Look, you know, and they telling me, 'Oh, don't hurt him. Don't hurt him.' My sister she said, 'Oh, you don't know my brother. Control yourself. He might kill him. You know, man, and, and, I've got this power. You know, and I love that. You know I love, I love people to dress me up.

The thrill, in many cases, is related to a sense of power, as in the above excerpt. Showing others he had the power to hurt someone and then scaring his audience with his power to hurt, gives him a tremendous high.
http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/jgilgun/brainstorm/brainstorm.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/27/anthony-rapoport-beat-aun_n_801673.html

http://socyberty.com/crime/10-of-the-most-notorious-serial-killers-of-our-time/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-psychopath-means
http://www.oocities.com/sociopaths/articles/harvardaspd1.html

The accused shooter, Jared Loughner, entered the courtroom in shackles. His head was shaved and he had a cut on his right temple."His eyes sort of went wide when he saw the press of reporters and others there waiting to see him," said NPR's Martin Kaste, who was in the courtroom. "And then he went very stony. He replied in monosyllables ... gave very short answers to the judge when required."
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/10/132780010/vitriol-cited-as-possible-factor-in-arizona-tragedy?ps=cprs
Sounds like malingering..He's putting on a show.


About Malingering..and fakers among sociopaths.

http://www.forensicpsychology.org/malingering.htm
As forensic psychology continues to grow, attorneys and other consumers will become more sophisticated about psychological assessment and the potential for successful malingering will continue to increase.
http://www.all-about-forensic-psychology.com/malingering.html

The man sentenced to spend the rest of his life in a mental hospital for killing six people, including a Skagit County sheriff's deputy, is not mentally ill, two psychiatrists say in a letter leaked to a local newspaper.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010872229_apwashootingrampage.html

The man sentenced to spend the rest of his life in a mental hospital for killing six people, including a Skagit County sheriff's deputy, is not mentally ill, two psychiatrists say in a letter leaked to a local newspaper.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010872229_apwashootingrampage.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16095797/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/


And addictions will always make things worse,sociopaths are very often addicts.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Addict-I-may-be-a-drug-addict-but-I-do-have-some-moralsttp://www.anyaddiction.com/
http://www.crimespider.com/crime-talk/
http://www.drtomoconnor.com/1060/1060lect04b.htm

Addicts have a higher risk of being violent than the mentally ill are.

A 2009 analysis of nearly 20,000 individuals concluded that increased risk of violence was associated with drug and alcohol problems, regardless of whether the person had schizophrenia. Two similar analyses on bipolar patients showed, along similar lines, that the risk of violent crime is fractionally increased by the illness, while it goes up substantially among those who are dependent on intoxicating substances. In other words, it's likely that some of the people in your local bar are at greater risk of committing murder than your average person with mental illness.
http://www.slate.com/id/2280619

While the public may think of violent people as out of control,
crazy, and unpredictable, the contrary is most often true.
http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32347
http://thestumblingblock.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/final-words-to-the-sociopath/
http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.ht

Know the differences
Stop Equating people or the symptoms of mental illness with the vicious cold blooded acts of violent criminals!

What a Sociopath is:
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-psychopath-means
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm
http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html

Some general Symptoms of Mental illnesses:
http://www.mhasp.org/help/symptoms.html
http://www.stopstigma.samhsa.gov/publications/thefacts.aspx

Some Symptoms of Psychiatric Injury/trauma:
http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ptsd.htm
http://hubpages.com/hub/Signs-of-Domestic-Violence-Emotional-Abuse
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/what-are-the-symptoms-of-ptsd.shtml
http://cbkit.tripod.com/id14.html



Relationship of ANY kind with anyone that has the symptoms of a sociopath,authoritarian or narcissist can ruin your life, even make you mentally ill.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pathological-relationships/201008/60-million-people-in-the-us-negatively-affected-someone-elses
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/health/2009/may/Bullied-Kids-May-Develop-Psychoses-.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1759742.stm
http://www.livescience.com/health/090505-bullying-psychotic.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article1139571.ece

In community practice, however, we constantly deal with the victims of a sociopath or antisocial personality.
http://counsellingresource.com/ask-the-psychologist/2008/03/31/after-relationship-with-sociopath/
http://angiemedia.com/2010/08/20/escaping-sociopathic-abuse-almost-impossible-when-children-are-involved/

The discrimination and stigma associated with mental illnesses largely stem from the link between mental illness and violence in the minds of the general public, according to the U.S. Surgeon General (DHHS, 1999). The belief that persons with mental illness are dangerous is a significant factor in the development of stigma and discrimination (Corrigan, et al., 2002). The effects of stigma and discrimination are profound.
http://www.stopstigma.samhsa.gov/topic/facts.aspx
When people call psychopaths and violent killers rapists and such "mentally ill" a STIGMA is perpetuated.One that harms people with mental illness/psychiatric injuries from trauma.

Psychopathy is not mental illness!!! So stop mixing people suffering from mental illness with criminals and assholes!.The psychopath does not suffer.A psychopath will malinger mental illness,fake religious conversion and "play good" .The psychopath is in control and DELIBERATE about the choices made,even the choice to murder.
When you say "nut" Psycho" "crazy" when referring to violent people and psychopaths,you perpetuate a LIE a stigma that hurts mentally ill people and perpetuate a reactive fear.Calls to lock us all up agaiinst our will have already been in the news.How would YOU feel if people were talking about you being locked up against your will in the media?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-504763_162-10391704.html?categoryId=10457951&tag=contentMain;contentBody
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20028165-10391704.html?TB_iframe=true&height=650&width=850

A spokesman for the Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health said: "Having a severe mental health problem does not make a person violent."People with conditions like schizophrenia are in fact more likely to be the victims of violence than others in the population.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5216836.stm

Mentally ill people are not violent
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/mentally-ill-not-more-violent-says-study-2072187.html

Mentally ill people killing random people is even more rare.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1158797.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/248841.stm

Jared Loughner is NOT mentally ill He WANTED to kill.

[XemaSab]

1. Thank you, Dr Frist

:eyes:

[SidDithers]

73. +1...nt

Sid

[Imagevision]

88. either way...he doesn't get the death penalty, so what's the biggie?

[elocs]

2. I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about.

Schizophrenics are not stupid and neither are they necessarily not organized.

Jared Loughner IS mentally ill!!!! (See how I've proved it by putting "IS" in all caps along with the exclamation marks afterwards--those really sealed the deal.)

[undergroundpanther]

15. Schizoprenics are not stupid I agree..with you

And I do know what I am talking about,
you might not grok it and that is your issue.

you might not like it but I am not here to please you.

[elocs]

20. That's ok. I just put you on ignore so I don't have to read anymore of your drivel. n/t

[undergroundpanther]

51. thank you for shutting up & going away..

I won't have to put up with your drivel on my threads.
:bounce:

[blogslut]

3. The insanity defense is one of the hardest to win

I think the mistake here is the assumption that Loughner might somehow avoid punishment/imprisonment via a verdict of "not guilty be reason of insanity". This kind of verdict is rare, rare, rare. A person can be severely mentally ill and still understand that their actions were wrong.

[undergroundpanther]

52. Agreed

even severely mentally ill people have a conscience..


Sociopaths don't have a conscience and have no shame playing 'psychotic' or 'victim'.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

10. If this is a professional opinion, I fear for your clients.

[Joe the Revelator]

13. What accounts? His YouTube profile? You know nothing more then the OP.

[NoodleyAppendage]

28. Watch last week's 60 minutes profile on Loughner.

There were enough personal details and interviews with those close to him to fit the pieces together that this guy is most likely a paranoid schizophrenic.

J

[lame54]

5. I read that he also...

went into the safeway to get change for the cab driver
so that's 3 confrontations

[snooper2]

6. that's WAY to many links in a single post...

you have to go slow with us..

How about, five at a time? :eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

11. Take your time

no need read it all at once,book mark it and go through it at your own pace .

[Forkboy]

14. Reading sucks!

[Patchuli]

72. Illiteracy sucks more nt.

[Joe the Revelator]

16. Yep, I hate when there is too much info. I like my facts like I like my coffee: watered down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. From a LEGAL perspective... you are correct

from a MEDICAL perspective... you are not.

These are two different things... one is based on common law going back oh centuries... can you tell right from wrong? Most high functioning schizophrenics can.

The other is at most 100 years old...

And by the DSMV yes... he is... and a few drugs... not all of them expensive... and access to mental health, EARLY ON, might have made all the dang difference in us having this conversation.

Oh and here is more... the mug shot... he had head lice, a bad case. They shaved him before the photo.

Yes I expect the defense to use this.

[undergroundpanther]

23. Ok

Thanks for the legal acknowledgment.

As for diagnosis I am not a doctor never claimed to be one.
But,I have had to learn what psychopaths are,because my survival depended on it.
I speak more from my own encounters.

Some psych professionals including doctors seem blinded by theories statistics and opinions and forget the dangers of labeling psychopaths as mentally ill. Lumping sociopaths in with every other mental illness does a disservice and perpetuates stigmas against the mentally ill who have a conscience.
Mentally ill people are not as violent as sociopaths,normal people, and addicts are,you should know that,and sociopaths are dangerous people and can drive other people to have signs of psychiatric distress/illness.

sociopaths needs to be set aside as a separate category from mental illness,for sociopaths cause suffering in those around them,and they refuse to change don't want to and therapy makes them worse so,stop lumping sociopaths in with mental illnesses.Because the public stubbornly attaches the behaviors of sociopaths with mental illness.

[blogslut]

25. I'm going to disagree with you

I've got my own experience with the mental health realm and I think sociopaths should be classified mentally ill as are others with other personality disorders.

EDIT ADD: A mental illness should never be considered a free get-out-of-responsibility card.

[undergroundpanther]

48. I agree

But when a truly mentally ill person hurts someone while psychotic is he competent to stand trial if he is psychotic?

Now is a psychopath fooling everyone by acting psychotic on purpose mentally ill there for incompetent to stand trial too?

There has to be a clearer way to determine malingering from the truly mentally ill.Sociopaths are more likely to try to do anything to get what they want including fooling the therapist by playing a game of 'mentally ill'.sociopaths have a lack of empathy and no conscience, they know right from wrong,and they could care less about that.They are deliberate with their choices.

The psych literature has very little in way of studies concerning sociopaths and malingering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Often, outsiders fail to realize how much "stomach lining" the truly good doctor gives up to the pursuit of truth in these difficult patients. As reflected in the original discussion, the doctor may be maligned or even attacked for simply trying to pursue the truth.

The patient's real advocate is the provider who seeks the truth, because in the end the patient's illness does not care about anyone's preferred view of it. The illness will behave according to its truth. And, in the case of hidden addiction or psychiatric problems we know the outcome of failing to treat the real illness.
http://blog.vitummedicinus.com/2008/09/when-patients-try-to-fool-doctors-four.html
****************************************************************************************************************
If you read the Kaplan & Saddock Comprehensive text on this, malingering is often associated with borderline personality d/o & antisocial personality d/o. The section in the comprehensive text is phenomenally well done, although it doesn't provide a concise way on how to handle the problem, and it seems to me no one will touch the issue with a 10 foot pole for fear of liability.

Anyways, there's this one malingerer who often shows up at my own hospital-in Atlantic City. When he's worn out his welcome, he goes to the hospitals in Camden, then when he wears out his welcome there, he ends up in hospitals in Philadelphia. It took me about 1 year to figure it out, because there were times I visited buddies at other hospitals, and I'd see this guy over there. He spends about 4 days a week, 52 weeks a year in the hospital, and when he wears out his welcome, he just goes to the next one, and the next one is willing to take him because they hadn't seen him for several months and they don't keep tabs with the other hospitals.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=290086

Also, psych testing is many times set up by the insurance companies to detrmine if someone is malingering or not.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=290086

For example, a recent study by
Yates and colleagues (8) examined
how often clinicians in a psychiatric
emergency service made the diagnosis
of malingering, a diagnosis that is
known to place the clinician and patient
in an adversarial relationship (9).
The authors found that 6 percent of
patients seen over a two-month period
were thought to be malingering.
However, none were given a primary
diagnosis of malingering, and less than
half were given a secondary diagnosis
of malingering.

http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/49/12/1545.pdf treated or counseled for malingering.

I thought I'd put this idea out there..there seems to be a strange reactivity to my opinions in this thread happening..

[blogslut]

56. Well,

I'm not a clinician.

However, I would think that malingering would also be a symptom of a personality disorder. After all, the text you cite above attributes malingering to borderline personality disorder.

Perhaps the confusion has to do with the term itself - mental illness. One can be mentally ill as deemed by the DSM and still be a functioning member of society.

Now, it's been a very long time but I was told that the term "schizophrenia" was really more of a blanket descriptor denoting a line of demarcation between levels of mental illness. A psychotic break is a break and not a continuous state except in extremely rare cases. Even "schizophrenics" experience extended periods of lucid thought.

We won't know if Loughner will be determined fit to stand trial until he has been formally diagnosed. If he is determined fit, then he will be tried and will most likely be found guilty. However, his mental state will determine his punishment and could possibly keep him from a death sentence.

I will, with a great deal of confidence, predict that he will never live outside of some sort of facility, be it prison or a mental health unit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I have transported psych patients

in full psychotic episode legally they can even walk... no, not just in the US...

But most psych patients are aware of what they are doing.

[undergroundpanther]

54. I have been in a crisis

and having really bad symptoms,but I was aware of what I was doing.I did not hurt any people,besides myself either

I think people enduring mental illness know not to attack the people trying to help.

If the crisis is combined with drugs than they might very well hurt somebody.

and if it boils down to sociopath issues, the asshole has an agenda,so hurting someone or not is all a deliberate plan for them getting what they want.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Of all the people I ever transported

ONE was not charged. Of all the people I met over the years, or family in this case, who were mental patients, only ONE was not guilty by reason of insanity, and sent to the mental hospital.

MOST patients know what they are doing. He does. Why legally proving it is well beyond the means. Many signs of premeditation here. Medically, he may (is) very much so, showing signs of paranoid schizo.

Two different standards. Understand this. I may be medically loony as a toon... even if legally no way no how.

[RobinA]

91. "People Enduring

mental illness know not to hurt people trying to help."

:rofl:

WRONG

[NoodleyAppendage]

43. Mind is what brain does.

Sociopaths are mentally damaged and "mentally ill," but that in no way excuses their behavior. You can't define "mental illness" based upon its effects on others. A century of work and science have shown that "mental illness" is defined by abnormalities of brain structure or function.

[slackmaster]

118. nadinbrzezinski's reply hit one out of the park. This is the only reply in the thread that matters.

:toast:

I would add only that it's quite common for a person who is not psychologically healthy to be judged as fit to stand trial.

[ElboRuum]

8. Usually when people supply links...

I feel that they've done some due diligence to support their assertions. Except in this case. I find that strange.

Oh, and good job implying that schizophrenia is the only form of mental illness, and that psychopathy really means 'not mentally ill, but evil'.

[westerebus]

9. So who is that you know personally that is mentally ill?

Family member? Spouse? In-law?

[Lucian]

12. From the way he was acting the night before the shootings...

he definitely was mentally ill.

[NuclearDem]

17. Uh, yeah, he WAS mentally ill

[Joe the Revelator]

18. How do you know?

I don't know that.

[NuclearDem]

22. Have you seen his Youtube videos? His ATS postings?

He had several breakdowns at the community college he went to, and the college kicked him out and said he wouldn't be let back in until he had had a mental health exam.

Just...everything about him points to mental illness, not a cold-blooded killer with a political motivation.

[Joe the Revelator]

24. The day my YouTube profile dictates my mental health is the day I'll be committed....

That goes for facebook and my postings on du. Those are not good indicators of someones mental health. The jerk off isn't dead, we will know soon enough if he's really sick, but I see no point in making conclusions based on text only youtube videos.

[NuclearDem]

29. Well, when his Youtube videos and postings share similarities with how he acted in real life...

...according to people who knew him, I think they can be good evidence of a disturbed mind.

I mean, unless you're really leading an Internet Double Life, the stuff you put on the web is probably going to reflect somewhat on your personality in the real world.

[Joe the Revelator]

33. You're forgetting the part where he made this videos out of no where 2 months ago, hypothetically...

...in order to help him get away with murder.

[NuclearDem]

37. His ATS threads started in the ballpark of July 2010

One of them mostly talking about what he ranted about in his Youtube videos. He was suspended from Pima CC the next month for his outbursts.

So, no, it didn't just come out of the blue two months ago.

[Joe the Revelator]

44. His ats posts from July mainly deal with NASA faking missions....

That sort of tin foil hat bs can be found pretty easily anywhere, including this site.

[NuclearDem]

46. One of his threads there was also about currency

The same stuff he ranted about over Youtube.

[Last Stand]

67. He is likely Mentally Ill AND politically motivated. Like John Salvi...

who was clearly ill but was held Criminally Responsible for using a gun to express his political angst. http://www.publiceye.org/rightist/salvi.html

"While Salvi clearly shows signs of emotional disturbance, his view of himself as a crusader against an evil conspiracy is rooted in the small but militant wings of the Catholic and Protestant anti-abortion movements. Even though Salvi has been found guilty in the Brookline, Massachusetts clinic shootings that left two women dead and several persons injured, it is still difficult for many people to see the political side of the Salvi case. There is still a widespread lack of knowledge about the beliefs of the right wing conspiracist subculture-and there is still an attitude of denial that groups promoting conspiratorial worldviews have growing influence in our political system. This aspect of the Salvi case has not been adequately covered by the news media."

These cases are hauntingly similar.

[Union Scribe]

97. See, that's not an argument

That's just insisting you're right. You just replied to a long and detailed post full of points and links with six words. That wouldn't even be convincing from an expert, let alone an armchair psychiatrist.

[Odin2005]

19. Logic Fail.

Just because people with mental illnesses are no more violent that the rest of the population does NOT mean that Loughner is not Schizophrenic. That does not logically follow.

Also, Schizophrenia varies in severity, mild cases (grading into Schizotypal Personality Disorder) can seem fairly normal, if a bit eccentric, unless you tip off some topic related to the person's delusions. Loughner obviously has a mild case.

Sociopathy in adults is preceded in childhood by Oppositional-Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder, Loughner had neither, his strange behavior started at an age typical for the onset of Schizophrenia

[woo me with science]

98. Bingo. Evidence of sociopathy does not emerge out of the blue at age 18.

You wrote:

"Sociopathy in adults is preceded in childhood by Oppositional-Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder, Loughner had neither, his strange behavior started at an age typical for the onset of Schizophrenia."

Assuming this is consistent with his history, I think you have made the most important observation in this thread.

[Odin2005]

101. Thanks.

Generally you can tell from an early age if a person is a sociopath.

[bobbolink]

108. But you are certain of it when they become president and vice president.

[Odin2005]

112. Huh?

[bobbolink]

113. Maybe it was too oblique.... I was referring to * torturing animals as a child, and Cheeeeeeney....

[Odin2005]

114. Yeah, torturing animals is a classic early sign of sociopathy/psychopathy.

[aikoaiko]

21. Respectfully, there are signs of mental illness.

However, your words of caution about stigmatizing all mentally ill are apropos.

[undergroundpanther]

30. and

sociopaths malinger mental illness too,and sociopaths like causing other people to fear them... As for him being mentally ill,he has a substance abuse history.
Those outbursts in school rants and such could have been because he was high. Don't be so fast to label a killer as mentally ill.
If sociopaths get considered to be like the mentally ill,and assumed psychotic,they will be excused for choices they make easier and the truly mentally ill will be treated like criminals.

That's where blurring the lines between sociopaths and mental illness leads to on a social and treatment implication level..

I have mental illness I am not violent,and I grew up around and was harmed by violence.My life depended upon recognizing sociopathic patterns in people.over time I have seen a very clear distinction between mental illness and sociopath in my encounters with others in hospitals and such. People with mental illness have a conscience.Sociopaths don't.

[NoodleyAppendage]

26. Let's try again. Apparently someone's ego can't take criticism...

Loughner is a textbook paranoid schizophrenic from all accounts. According to close friends (as close as those people could be), Loughner was increasingly becoming delusional and fixated upon ideas of reference regarding the nature of reality. His speech and thought patterns, according to those who knew him, were becoming more disjointed and disorganized. He is young enough to be within the critical range for a 1st psychotic break. And, lastly his seemingly organized behavior, though guided by delusional beliefs, is NOT exclusionary for paranoid schizophrenia. Paranoid schizophrenics are the most high functioning of all the schizophrenic subtypes. Now, back to school with you...respectfully.

[undergroundpanther]

34. I respectfully disagree

I was in a psych ward with a patient that by all appearances was psychotic..I watched her over the next days,what she really wanted was to steal and get shot up with drugs. She was an addict. She stole other patients stuff,to use it as a bribe for other patients meds.She had a little drug exchange set up in no time. Staff were unaware of this.

Every night she'd have a temper tantrum on schedule with lots of word salad and off the wall stuff. She'd do something something she thought someone psychotic might do,like pee on the sidewalk.during the day she was drugged,and when she woke up she'd bitch about being bored than stir up shit with someone to entertain herself.Every night she did the same 'outburst' routine. One day I got sick of her disrupting everything with her drug seeking bullshit,So I said out loud what I thought she was doing in a hall meeting in a clear way that offered her no pity and she decided to target me with verbal harassment after that.Unable to get a rise out of me she started stealing my stuff and so I went in her room took my stuff back & informed the clients of where their stuff was.Told the staff she had drugs and where it was..The clients were sick of her crap,she was infuriated when staff went through her stuff and found everyone else's stolen items and returned them to whom they belonged to,and she really got pissed when staff found her cache of drugs she had gotten off other patients..She had a temper tantrum when she was busted and had to be watched,to keep her from stealing stuff and procuring meds from other patients & hiding the pills.

And when she realized she wasn't going to be drugged up for acting 'crazy',she stopped playing "crazy" and instead became violent and mean to force staff to drug her up..but at first they just put her in the seclusion room and she'd keep the entire unit awake by screaming,so staff would drug her to shut her up.They got weary of her shit .As far as I could tell she was another sociopath gaming the system and playing psychotic to get high.

Go figure.

[blogslut]

36. Just because she faked symptoms and was an addict

...doesn't mean she wasn't mentally ill.

Oftentimes, that's what having a personality disorder means - you do stuff that "sane" people wouldn't do. You fuck up your life over and over and over, even when you know what you're doing makes no sense.

[undergroundpanther]

59. I said

she was a sociopath a low functioning one..It was obvious what she was doing,took staff too long to realize it.
She had already endangered a few people by manipulating or bribing them to give her their meds.

[blogslut]

60. Ahh, I see

You intend to insist that people with Anti-Social Personality disorder are not actually mentally ill and there's no changing your mind.

Well, I guess we'll have to disagree.

[NoodleyAppendage]

41. The difference between your malingering example and Loughner is motive.

Malingering, by definition, requires the presence of secondary gains. From all that has been written and televised about Loughner, there are no secondary gains in his act other than a means to an end. Loughner has delusions of grandeur, that is clear. His repeated insistence that "others" are ignorant or illiterate bespeaks his delusion that he is "special" and above the rest of his peers. This delusion serves a few purposes, but the greatest is one of self-preservation. His ideas were becoming outwardly "crazy" and disorganized, but Loughner's delusions of grandeur protect him from criticisms of this disorganization by implying that everyone who doesn't understand his internal dialog is "ignorant." Giffords, as an authority figure, made the big (but unintended) mistake of damaging Loughner's grandeur. Her inability to answer his question about "government and words having no meaning" was taken by Loughner as an insult. An insult that festered for over a year in Loughner and boiled over as his schizophrenia worsened.

J

[snagglepuss]

115. Interesting observations. nt

[Obamanaut]

31. It's true then, that Dr. Frist is NOT the only one who can diagnose sans exam. nt

[Johonny]

32. I guess we'll find out at the trial

Its a opinion post on the internet not an argument for passing legislation in the senate :) We all try to guess on things like this. Nothing wrong having opinion. The people that get to see all the evidence and get to talk to him in person will of course be able to tell us in the end.

[undergroundpanther]

35. Yep it's my opinion

funny how people were assuming I was a doctor or something..and guess what I have a right to my own opinion people.
I have a right to post it too.

[Merlot]

45. It's your opinion and you bring up some very good points

IMO people are very invested in him being mentally ill.

I won't rule out the possibility that he's a sociopath and could be faking mental illness. Many movies are have the sociopath-acting-insane-and-fooling-everyone plot.

It will be interesting to see what the defense decides to do, as well as how the doctors evaluate him.

[undergroundpanther]

50. Yeah

I'm wondering what the evaluation comes up with too.

Not only is there a lot of investment in him being mentally ill,there was that whole political motive argument,and the left VS rightwing situation...It is really weird how reactive people are over this guy.

[bobbolink]

79. Yes, it seems to be a societal investment to label him "mentally ill".

That investment alone is worth examining.

What is the gain in believing him to be "mentally ill"?

What would be lost if it is found that he isn't?

This insistence is saying a lot about our society!

[Obamanaut]

53. Actually, no one assumed you are a doctor, although there has been some comparison

to the Fristian ability to diagnose from afar.

And there are at least two assertions in the OP that the guy is NOT mentally ill, and the 'NOT' did appear in caps, and many, many keystrokes were employed to support this assertion, with not so much as a single "I think", "I believe", or even an "IMO (in my opinion)" Only the emphatic "NOT"

[Raksha]

90. Exactly. You aren't a doctor, but then you never claimed to be.

You aren't going to be diagnosing Loughner and you won't be the judge presiding at his trial either...or even serving on the jury. So your opinion isn't going to affect the outcome of the trial one way or the other.

It's hard to understand all the hostility on this thread under the circumstances.

[bluedigger]

38. I disagree.

No links required.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

39. A neighbor reported he used to talk to himself - classic schizophrenic.

I worked as a psychiatric social worker and quite often they can appear to be normal especially when they "have" to.

[bobbolink]

78. bwahahaha! I know people who "talk to themselves", and they certainly aren't schizophrenic....

classic or otherwise. (Actually, by their age their *are* classics, but not labeled as such.)

One friend is really funny when she talks to herself, and laughs about it.

Labeling people you don't know is not only strange itself, but destructive.

[Jamastiene]

89. Oh, shit. I must be schizophrenic too.

If you see me in the grocery store trying to get something off the top shelf or remember what it is that I forgot to put on my grocery list, I guess you can just call me schizophrenic and move along. Nothing more to it.

I had no idea that I was schizophrenic because I sometimes forget to add something that I needed to my grocery list or because I can't reach something on the top shelf and have to think my way though it. :wow:

Lock me up in a padded room and start feeding me three hot meals a day and giving me free (to me) health care now.

[Union Scribe]

95. Gonna have to join the "bullshit" chorus on that one.

[sabrina 1]

40. I didn't read past this:

But two things argue seriously against him being a schizophrenic. The first is just how organized his behavior was. His acts alone point to a man doing something on purpose.

You haven't known any schizophrenics have you?

We have a family member who has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and when he has a purpose he cannot be dissuaded from it and is very organized about it. He is in fact almost OC about his pursuits once he settles on one. I see nothing about Loughner's contacts with other people that day that points to him being normal. They were not the targets of his paranoia.

As I said, I have not read the rest, but anyone meeting our family member would never guess he was mentally ill unless they were around him for a while. He is very intelligent, knowledgeable and can hold fascinating conversations with people.

He has also had several violent episodes nearly killing another family member and assaulting two case workers and his own mother. He was jailed for one of those assaults but only until a place could be found for him to get treatment. He has been stabilized with meds and has not had any more violent outbursts so far. There is no doubt about his mental illness and without meds, I shudder to think what he might be capable of.

Jared Loughner is mentally ill, most likely paranoid schizophrenic and perhaps with some kind of personality disorder also. He shows all the symptoms over a long period of time and it is a tragedy that somewhere along the way there was no intervention as he plummeted deeper into psychosis.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

42. Yep - agree with you 100%

n/t

[Liquorice]

47. It's true. Paranoid schizophrenics can appear "normal" at least superficially and especially

when they have a purpose.

[undergroundpanther]

55. I know a lot of schizophrenics

I have a mental illness myself.Been struggling with symptoms for a long time.So I have met a lot of people diagnosed as schizophrenic and lots of people with other labels too. I have lived with mentally ill people as my roommates, as fellow patients and as my peers.Some of the people I've met with psych labels are my best friends. I was misdiagnosed schizophrenic when I had my first hospitalization.
They changed the Dx when huge doses of the anti-psychotics didn't help me.I have had several labels over time.I am finally getting the right help I have trauma issues cPTSD ,depression...It sucks on bad days.

[sabrina 1]

62. I view mental illness the same way I view any other kind of illness.

I have met many people diagnosed with different labels. And you are right, sometimes the diagnosis is wrong.

But in the case of the family member I mentioned, he has had many different evaluations and it is pretty definite that Paranoid Schizophrenia is the right diagnosis. He may also have Asbergers which has not yet been determined. Balancing the medications took time but seems to be working for him now and he is very good at taking his meds.

His violent attacks on others were caused by his paranoia, which he now understands.

People can manage there illness just as they can manage some physical illnesses, but it is first necessary to know what the illness is. Many schizophrenics can live relatively normal lives once they get control of the illness, with meds and good therapy and a strong support system.

Loughner could not control his illness because he had not acknowledged it. There were most likely signs that people around him and even he himself, could have recognized as danger signs, had he ever had any decent mental health care.

Without the care our family member has received, I do not know what might have happened to him, or what he might have done. I am only that he did have family around him and was fortunate to meet people who wanted to help, who made sure he did receive that help.

In fact, he was involved in an incident in college very similar to the disruptive incidents Loughner was involved in in his college classes. Fortunately in his case, the professor recognized his behavior as a mental health issue and called the police who took him to a hospital where he was evaluated and treated.

I wish you well. I am sorry for anyone who has to deal with illness of any kind, mental or physical as both are painful in different ways. Take care of yourself and I'm glad you are getting the right help now :-)

[SidDithers]

74. ...

:thumbsup:

Sid

[Maru Kitteh]

81. +1001 This is a really lame OP. Just awful.

[RobinA]

93. Yes.

I work in a psych hospital. There are a certain percentage of patients who, when some new staff person comes on the unit, that staff invariably says to her/himself, "Why is Jane Doe here, she seems perfectly fine?" Eventually they find out why the person is in the hospital. On the other hand, there are people who are so obviously sick, some fairly young, that you can't imagine them ever living a normal life. Then you see their prom picture - all dressed up and looking fine, with a date, having a good time... It's just sad.

[fishwax]

49. you can't tell if a person is (or is not) mentally ill from a single photographic portrait

[undergroundpanther]

58. no it takes more to get a dx than a photo

but you can observe what sorts of impressions the person in the photo evokes in yourself.

And you know babies learn to read emotional cues by looking at people's faces and expressions.
We get a lot of information from seeing other's faces and expressions,be it from a photo or not.Sometimes a person you don't know anything about can creep you out or bother you because your unconscious mind is alerted because it detected something your conscious mind can't.

This is all normal phenomena people have concerning social situations and faces..


In theoretical terms, the finding supports a psychological hypothesis called “embodied cognition,” says Glenberg, now a professor of psychology at Arizona State University.

“The idea of embodied cognition is that all our cognitive processes, even those that have been thought of as very abstract, are actually rooted in basic bodily processes of perception, action and emotion.”
http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/02/01/facial-expressions-control-emotions/11082.html

[boppers]

57. "Psychopathy is not mental illness!!! " Uhm, DSM FAIL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

It's a mental illness, just like depression, bipolar, OCD, etc.

[undergroundpanther]

61. Dsm fail? no you failed to notice the reasons for the axis designations

There are axis designations in the DSM..they designate things..

Psychopaths don’t exhibit the manias, hysterias, and neuroses that are present in other types of mental illness. Their main defect, what psychologists call “severe emotional detachment”—a total lack of empathy and remorse—is concealed, and harder to describe than the symptoms of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. This absence of easily readable signs has led to debate among mental-health practitioners about what qualifies as psychopathy and how to diagnose it. Psychopathy isn’t identified as a disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the American Psychiatric Association’s canon; instead, a more general term, “antisocial personality disorder,” known as A.P.D., covers the condition.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/10/081110fa_fact_seabrook

ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER (APD)

The diagnosis of APD has long been controversial. The criteria for it seem to change with each and every new edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-I 1968; DSM-II 1976; DSM-III 1980; DSM-III-R 1987; DSM-IV 1994). The diagnosis was substantially changed with DSM-III when the APA decided to distinguish between child and adult characteristics, and essentially substituted behavioral criteria (like truancy or law violations) for personality criteria (like callousness and selfishness). In the DSM-III-R (R for Revised), the focus was on violence and a list of violent acts (fighting, cruelty to others, cruelty to animals). The current DSM-IV approach essentially says that anything which is not sociopathy, psychopathy or dyssocial personality disorder is antisocial personality disorder, but there is considerable overlap. The diagnostic possibilities are endless; there are at least 3 million possible variations of symptoms on at least 62 different measurable items.

One of the things closely related to APD is the comorbidity of alcoholism and narcotic addiction. Some of the criteria for a substance abuse disorder are very similar: theft, hazardous behavior, failure to fulfill role functions in home, school, and work. A strong correlation exists between substance abuse and factor 2 (antisocial behaviors) of the psychopathy construct. APDs with a drug addiction have some serious substance abuse problems -- the kind that lead to death by overdose or accident within five years. Are APD and narcotic addiction part of the same disorder, does one lead to the other, or are they are spuriously linked together? From what little research there is, it appears that most of the time, APD precedes narcotic addiction, although some of the time, addiction leads to APD behaviors. People with such comorbid characteristics also usually have undiagnosed other Axis I and Axis II disorders.


http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/antisocial_sociopath_psychopath.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061127152200AAqScFl


So, Sociopathy/APD is not a mental illness. It is an axis 2 diagnosis,this means it is an innate personality trait ,which means it is an issue of who they ARE,not what they suffer from,as is with mental illness/psychiatric injury types of disorders.

This axis 2 designation means sociopath is not a true mental illness it is a innate personality situation.

[boppers]

86. "in other types of mental illness"

You're arguing both sides.

It may be innate, that does *not* mean it is not mental illness, any more than saying a genetic disorder like type I diabetes is "not a true physical illness", because it is innate.

[Roundtree65]

63. Good you know about sociopathy. But, you only know about that.

Excellent that you know about sociopathy/psychopathy, more people should.

However, respectfully, a "little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing".

There are more psychological issues to learn about too! This guy was very much schizophrenic.


Also, people tend to 'see' what they are studying or interested in. I do this too if I read about something new sometimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_students'_disease

[cali]

64. garbage. the evidence that he's mentally ill is staggering.

[seabeyond]

66. i think your position is more reasoned than those the insist he is mentally ill, and evidence "stagg

staggering".

you could be right. we dont know. but we know the people that insist he is mentally ill dont know either

[hunter]

68. Shit happens in our society. We don't pick people up when they first fall.

That applies as much to someone like Loughner as it does to some 13 year old gangster with a gun.

There are plenty of people who get "high" when others fear them. The most dangerous among them are those who learn to manipulate the system so they're not holding the gun. (Look at George W. Bush...)

One good reason for opposing the death penalty is that we don't have to make these fine distinctions between who is mentally ill, who isn't, and to what degree. You put the dangerous, manipulative, resistant to treatment, gets-high-on-other-people's-fear in one place, and everyone else in another.

In the second category everyone who is capable of change, whether they are mentally ill, criminal, or addicted, deserves the best opportunity for treatment and/or rehabilitation that we as a society can give them.

Unfortunately our society treats people as disposable tools. Those who can't function within the economic machine, those whose "productivity" can't be measured in dollars, are considered useless and are simply warehoused in unpleasant places like prisons or impoverished neighborhoods.

Our world has enough resources to support everyone in comfort but we are too busy finding reasons and labels that justify abandoning people to misery and death.

[oldlib]

69. His police mugshot was contrived.

I too think that he is not mentally disturbed. He purposely wanted everyone to think that he is insane and I believe that he had complete control before, during and after the shooting.

[LeftishBrit]

70. While it is true that most mentally ill people are not violent...

'mental illness' is a broad term, and there are SOME people who are violent as a result of delusions or other symptoms of mental illness.

Moreover, people who are mentally ill need not be impaired in all aspects of life, or instantly recognizable as having something wrong with them. There have for instance been many situations where someone has interacted with others during the day, appeared 'normal' - and then committed suicide. Mental illness is far less likely to lead to murder than to suicide; but it *can* happen, and it's not always easy to recognize or predict. In fact, according to the news reports, Loughner *had* already been recognized as showing bizarre and sometimes threatening behaviour, and had been asked to withdraw from college as a result.

Mental illness does not always result in complete disorganization, or inability to carry out a plan. In particular, there are two main types of symptoms of schizophrenia, and different people, or the same person at different times, can show either type of symptom as the predominant one. One type is negative symptoms. People with such symptoms tend to be passive, withdrawn, lacking in emotional response, and often do have severe difficulty in planning and organization. The other type is positive symptoms: hallucinations and delusions. People with mainly positive symptoms may show no great difficulty with planning and organization as such: the problem is that their plans may be based on a delusion instead of reality.

Of course, people with mental illness should *not* be stereotyped as particularly likely to commit acts of violence; they are not. But *some* cases of violence *are* the result of delusions.

[bobbolink]

75. "SOME" people are violent. Period. Remember the Dick.... Cheney?

Now *there* is a violent person, yet missing any diagnosis.

There are violent people in every segment of the population. Cops, teachers, priests, doctors, and yes, even the psych profession has had some violent members.

So, your assertion that "SOME" mentally ill people are violent is meaningless.

[LeftishBrit]

83. Let's put it differently: occasionally violence is a result of a delusion

And more often it isn't.

I was just arguing that one shouldn't just assume that someone is malingering, without definite evidence. And the fact that a person is not impaired in *everything* doesn't mean they're malingering about the area where they are impaired.

Loughner may be malingering - but we should not assume it as a fact.

[bobbolink]

87. Actually, what most people are assuming, without knowing anything about it, is that he is "mentally

ill".

[merh]

92. I think he is unbalanced but I think most cold blooded killers are unbalanced

I don't believe he is "innocent by reason of insanity" or that he meets the McNaughten test (not knowing or understanding or appreciating that his actions were wrong).

He was too calculated, his actions too premeditated - his former girlfriend said that he had been planning something like this for years and was faking insanity.

[bemildred]

71. I don't think there is any common agreement on what "mentally ill" means.

Or "mentally healty" either, though it's a bit clearer there, people who function well and appear happy can be assumed to be doing something right.

But I do think the perp here knew what he was doing, was surprisingly competent in doing it, and ought to be held accountable. He may or may not be schiznophrenic, as you point out, it can be hard to tell without extended scrutiny.

[Rex]

76. I think some DUrs are mentally ill. They insist on things with no evidence

from professionals in contact with Jared, just what they believe to be true (don't call it a gut feeling, they will produce pages of 'evidence' from fellow guessers) and anything else has to be garbage talk 'by the otherside'.

Black and white worlds are sad little worlds with no rainbows. :(

It IS possible Jared is mentally ill AND an evil bastard at the same time - I know that is earth-shattering news to some. A person can have TWO traits that drive them! TWO! Believe it or not, maybe even THREE!

[spanone]

77. no one knows either way.

[mainstreetonce]

80. desciption of a sociopath

I have read extensively about Columbine and Harris has been described as a sociopathic personality.
From the little we know of Loughner so far, the story seems different.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

84. Well if an anonymous internet poster unencumbered

by a professional degree or the hassle of actually meeting and evaluating the person in question says he's not mentally ill then I guess that settles it.

[pipi_k]

85. So he's a perfectly sane, nice all American boy

that's scary.

If that's true, then it means any of us...our moms...dads...brothers and sisters...spouses...

Ourselves...

Any of us has the ability to plan, and carry out, a cold blooded murder.

Bullshit.

If he's a sociopath or psychopath or schizophrenic or whatever...that's a mental illness.

Illness being defined as a state of disease. Or "dis-ease". Unease of the mind. Unease of the thinking process.


I have various mental illnesses and do not feel Jared Loughner's actions reflect badly on me.


People who do shit like that are not right in the head. And if they're not right, then there's an illness.

[Rabrrrrrr]

94. So why tell us? Take your crap to the American Psychiatric Association, who say it IS mental illness

Don't waste your time here trying to convince us to get it relabeled.

And try using some punctuation and spaces - I stopped reading about two paragraphs in because it's difficult to follow your randomly strung together train of thought, and far more so with the lack of punctuation that helps one sort out which thoughts go with which.

For now, Loughner - if he is psychotic, or APD - is mentally ill.

I'm sorry that you don't want the 'really bad' mentally ill lumped in with the 'not so bad' mentally ill, but that's the way it works.

[RegieRocker]

100. Just who do you think you are? You certainly have a

unjustified over inflated ego to think that you speak for everyone. "Don't waste your time here trying to convince us". Are you the Nazi punctuation and spaces police? Take your crap and peddle it somewhere else.

[Codeine]

106. He's a respected poster with a solid history here.

He's not the one who needs to peddle anything elsewhere.

[Rabrrrrrr]

107. Who do I think I am?!?! Who do I think I am?!?! OMG, I've been chastised!

:rofl:

Good luck with that.

And welcome to DU.

[Union Scribe]

96. I wish more people would read your links

instead of just responding with "shut up he looks crazy he's craaaazy I say!"

"The discrimination and stigma associated with mental illnesses largely stem from the link between mental illness and violence in the minds of the general public"
A-freakin-men.

[pipi_k]

102. He not only looks crazy...

he DID something crazy.


Unless murder of our fellow humans is programmed into our species, it's not normal.

Even most four legged creatures aren't biologically programmed to murder their own species.

Humans are supposed to be so much more aware and "civilized" than "soulless" animals, yet every day hundreds or thousands of us die at the hands of our own kind.

That's civilized? That's normal?

No. It's crazy.

There's something horribly wrong with someone who murders other people. There's something wrong with his thought processes, and, because of that, he is mentally ill.

[Odin2005]

111. Chimps invade the territory rival chimp troops and slaughter the rival troop for no apparent reason.

They do it for the hell of it.

[bobbolink]

103. Thank you for the common sense you have tried to inject. Sadly, with this topic, so many are common

sense averse.

In fact, it shows because rather than refuting anything in a calm way, there is the same name-calling and hyperbole that is associated with the RW.

Same standard tactics when people are invested in a paradigm and can't imagine needing to rethink it.

[Odin2005]

110. Just because this particular mentally ill person is a murder doesn't mean we are saying....

...people with mental illnesses are more likely to commit violent crimes, that's a logical fallacy.

I also detect a bit of the "Appeal to Consequences" fallacy, wanting to deny Loughner's mental illness because of the risk of it perpetuating that harmful myth, not because of the actual facts behind the mental health of Loughner.

[bobbolink]

117. And what I detect is the scary proposition that people are so invested in this outcome, that they

have judged and sentenced him, which not only is not Constitutional, but is the height of egotism to play psychiatrist with someone they don't know.

We had a good laugh at Frist for doing this... yet, here we are....

NONE. OF. US. KNOW.

[rucky]

99. You can't use statistics to refute a statistical anomaly

That's like saying that nobody wins the lottery because the odds are so slim.

[Quantess]

104. .

[earth mom]

105. Too many links-but I think Loughner is a sociopath/psychopath which is what I think you are trying

to say.

I grew up with someone that was mentally ill and they would never have been able to make the videos or sound as coherent as Loughner did in the video he made on the college campus.

[Odin2005]

109. You obviously don't know enough mentally ill people.

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

116. I am inclined to trust your judgment in these matters.