Is it necessary to demonize ALL Republicans?

[AmyStrange]

-

Hi all,

it has been a long time since I participated in this forum and a lot of things have happened in my life since then. One of the biggest things is that I now have a roommate, and she is a mod repub.

When we first met each other five years ago and before we moved in together, we had big time fights about our political ideologies. Being a lib dem myself, her ideas at the time were very offensive to me, but at some point and after much discussion and big time arguing, we came to some agreements. One of the most important is that neither side is perfect and each uses many of the same tactics to demonize the other depending on who is in power.

Since then our discussions are more civil (and very very interesting) and the result is that we have found that we do have some common ground. One of the most profound was that we both don't like Glenn Beck (Rush Limbaugh is a very close second) and for the same reason. Their knee-jerk negative reactions to anything that Obama says or does just proves that they are more interested in dividing this country rather then uniting it.

Not all of us will ever agree on everything, but does it really help our country any (or anyone for that matter) to make the other side look as evil as many on the other side are trying to do to us?
How does this make us better than them?

Dave (and Caty)

[ingac70]

1. That's like asking me to see the good....

in child molesters.

[Cid_B]

5. Way to go nuclear right out of the box...

... child molesters? Really? You must be a hoot at parties...

[ingac70]

15. A "moderate" Repub is simply a corporate whore....

without all the whackjob ideas social conservatives have.

[MadHound]

41. Much like a moderate, blue dog Dem. n/t

[Brilliantrocket]

54. I disagree, differing in idealogy doesn't make you a corporate whore

What if they are pro regulation ,but anti welfare state as well?

[KansDem]

75. What kind of welfare?

Republicans love welfare if it's directed at their interests...

Corporate welfare
Beef and dairy welfare
Farm welfare
Pentagon welfare
Welfare posing as "tax cuts" for the wealthy
etc.

Just what kind of "welfare" would a "pro-regulation, but anti welfare state" Republican oppose?

[ingac70]

131. Anti welfare? Evil POS. n/t

[ingac70]

132. Anti welfare?

You want poor citizens of this nation to live like the US is Bangladesh? Anti-welfare is evil POS.

[FarPoint]

6. I like the comparison.

Well put.

[Gato Moteado]

10. Exactly!

nt

[Brilliantrocket]

57. Way to be an absolutist

[Thor_MN]

147. Many conservatives are the ultimate absolutists

Black and White, with us or against us. They live in a binary world. They can't deal with shades of gray. A partial solution is simply unthinkable, it would be better to do nothing and let everyone drown than to take a simple action that would save 80%.

A media outlet that isn't 100% right-wing talking points is "Liberal media bias", one or two stories and it's far-left extremisms.

By forcing everything into that binary worldview, they become inured to hypocrisy. It becomes easier to have someone tell you what to think than try to establish Yes/No answers to complicated questions.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ingac70]

26. Wanting a Dickensian society for the working class...

goes beyond simply "wrong". And they ARE child molesters. http://armchairsubversive.blogspot.com/

[woo me with science]

52. Yeah, this is the party of civility.

:eyes:

[NuclearDem]

120. Wow.

That's just...incredible.

[valerief]

2. I don't dislike progressive Republicans. Where do you find them, though? nt

[handmade34]

3. I can call David Stockman

a decent person...




so not all of them

[JSK]

55. Stockman called himself a "lapsed Republican" on Real Time n/t

[Angry Dragon]

4. When are the mod republicans going to come out

and condemn the far right??
when are they going to voice their disgust of the hate mongers??
They have to remember the far right is a danger to them also.

[Dappleganger]

44. Many of them resigned and went into hiding.

Or they are cold in the grave.

[Zoeisright]

7. They make themselves look evil.

Calling out hatred, bigotry, and cruelty isn't the same as BEING bigoted, or hateful, or cruel. This is a dangerous false equivalency that tries to make both sides equal.

Democrats want to help people, to even the playing field, to make sure no one is homeless or hungry or dies without medical care. I don't know any republicans who feel that way.

[hootinholler]

8. Yes. I calls them like I sees them.

My reason?

They *are* evil. Every evil thing that has been cast upon liberals, the assault on liberaldom since the 50's and earlier, has been cast by the evildoers, to borrow a phrase.

-Hoot

[Gato Moteado]

9. anyone that clings to the right wing or the repub party......

.....is evil.

what exactly is it about the repubs that your roommate likes?

the racism, bigotry and homophobia?
the use of religion to manipulate malleable middle americans and southerners?
the corporate influence that does away with regulations put in place to protect us?
the greedy rich that want everything for themselves and nothing for anyone else?
the total disdain for the environment and anyone who thinks we should preserve it?
the wars?
the tax cuts for the rich?
the media control?
big oil?
big pharm?
corporate personhood?
the desire to cut funding for everything from the arts to necessary social programs?
sarah palin? rudy giuliani? rick santorum? michelle bachman?

seriously....can she name one good thing about the republican party, the tea baggers or the right wing in general?

They're evil.

[snagglepuss]

That exactly what I'd like to know nt

[Uben]

34. My parents are republicans, and they....

....are not rich, homophobes, racists, religious, or greedy. Obviously you don't really know any republicans that are not activists, which are the ones you describe. Most of them are just hard working Americans who have been told over and over again that democrats tax and spend, and they believe it, although republicans are much worse at tax and spend than democrats. Painting all republicans as evil is just as bad as them claiming all dems are evil. It's just rhetoric that keeps Americans divided, and you facilitate it as much as they do. Wake the fuck up!

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeff47]

51. So we should stop critizing them for following their activists?

Why?

Because they've decided to believe the activists over their own lying eyes?

[maxsolomon]

58. My parents are/were GOP, too. So are 90% of all my relatives.

I'm from the district south of Boehner's, OH-7. Conservative Irish/German Catholics. I know from middle-class conservative Republicans.

And you're right, they're not "evil". They're fucking rubes. Except for my doctor uncle - who is pretty wealthy - and he's just selfish and greedy. He means well, but he has no innate empathy or knowledge of people outside his circle.

If you think that Democrats are "facilitating" the divisions as MUCH as the GOP, you're a troll or as deluded as our relatives. Democrats have been getting outspent, shouted down, and vilified in the "liberal" media for 30 years. BELIEVING these distortions and lies may not make you evil, but you are complicit.

Please share with us how we turn the tide - is Obama's "bipartisanship" rhetoric producing results? Is it ratcheting down the divisions between Americans? Is it producing legislation that Provides for the General Welfare? If it is, I sure as fuck don't see it.

[ReadTomPaine]

68. +1

:thumbsup:

[fascisthunter]

146. well said

:thumbsup:

[annabanana]

61. Sadly, That must mean that they haven't been paying much attention.

If they took a good look at today's republican party, they might see that it has slid out from under them.

[Arugula Latte]

66. Right...Some are evil/greedy. Some are ignorant. Some are both.

But, really, they fall into one of those three categories.

[olegramps]

102. If they refuse to see the facts concerning the Republican Party I have no empathy for them.

How can any minimally intelligent person be so totally oblivious to the hatred, homophobia, greed and racism spewed by the Republican Party? I can only conclude that they actually endorse these immoral bastards.

[Teaser]

11. Your roommate belongs to a party of monsters.

She may not be a monster. She does support monsters.

You either deal with that, or just ignore it. Those are your options.

[bluestate10]

124. She could have been born into the party and was taught bullshit from a young age. nt.

[ZombieHorde]

12. Depends on how much thinking you want to do.

If you don't want to think very much, broad brushing is a great way to cut corners.

[mythology]

17. Unfortunately a seemingly rather lonely viewpoint

given the responses up until now. But I agree with you.

Not every Republican is bad and not every Democrat is good.

[handmade34]

13. why is your roommate

a republican? If she is a caring, thinking person, what would cause her to cling to republican ideologies?

[AmyStrange]

95. Here is her answer...

-

By the way handmade, that is a good question and thank you for asking it. Hopefully, I am allowed to respond on this board and Dave isn't punished because of me. Anyway, after living with Dave for the last four plus years, I probably lean more democrat than republican, but two examples of why I am more the latter than the former is because I favor the death penalty and am against abortion.

THAT SAID, I also believe that everything should be done to be sure an innocent person isn't executed, and as far as abortion is concerned, it is a personal belief, but I don't support forcing anyone through legislation to follow my beliefs which is one of the things that makes me mad about a lot of my fellow republicans and their beliefs. Hope this helps to answer your question.

Caty

[handmade34]

114. Caty...

it is my sense that capital punishment are quandaries for both republicans and democrats. I am as old as dirt and in my earlier lifetime, I knew and respected many republicans. The political arena is much different now and the whole package that creates what a republican is today, is not what it used to be and quite frankly I have no respect for anyone that affiliates themselves with the likes of John Boehner, Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor and the rest. We as a society and our environment are in serious trouble with these men and their ideas in charge.

these things are serious problems:
denial of Climate change
acceptance of Corporate power
lack of interest in the importance of infrastructure
dismissal of the horrendous effects of poverty on our nation
not understanding that PUBLIC education is a great equalizer
ignorance of how 90% of our citizens live
discrimination (especially lgbt presently)
etc, etc

I would love to discuss abortions and women's rights with you, but not in this venue... it is a very serious issue. I know women who died having back alley abortions and families that have been ruined because of anti-abortion sentiment. I have 5 beautiful children that I love more than life itself and I also have had abortions... not one regret. Abortion IS a personal issue; not one that should be decided by the state nor by anyone but the person that is pregnant. Religion drives much of the debate about abortion and it should have no bearing in making laws of the land.

Caty, you sound relatively wise... at least consider calling yourself an independent!

[AmyStrange]

122. Independant?

-

When we first met, she was a conservative repub big time, but after a million plus arguements and after starting to agree on some things. she has softened many of her stances, but (quoting her here) "I can't kick as much republican buttski as an independent as I can as a republican."

I tend to agree. Calling herself a repub lends her arguements more legitimacy than if she were an independent. You have to see her in action to know what she means by this. When one of her fellow repubs make a statement like all dems are evil or abortion should be illegal etc, she is not shy about attacking them and pointing out the flaws in their arguements.

Simply put, she is awesome!!!

Dave (and Caty)

[Moral_Imagination]

140. Interesting

You say you are against abortion... and then say you don't support forcing anyone through legislation to follow my beliefs.

This makes you Pro-Choice. Very strange how you characterized it. Do you think Pro-Choice means we want women to have abortions?
:eyes:

[Dawgs]

142. Your buying into the propaganda if you think anyone is FOR abortion.

Being pro-choice is NOT being pro-abortion. In fact, I have a bumper sticker on my car that says Anti-Abortion/Pro-Choice.

And, favoring the death penalty is not a good enough reason to stay being a republican.

[TheWraith]

14. No. But if they ally themselves with the psychotics, bigots, and haters, then they're the problem.

Your roommate sounds fairly reasonable. But the people who claim to be "moderate," then tacitly condone or ignore the activities of people like Glenn Beck, Randall Terry, the Tea Party, Michelle Bachman, etcetera, etcetera, then they're part of the problem themselves.

It's damned hard to justify a true "moderate" being a part of the modern Republican Party unless, to be blunt, they simply aren't paying attention to what's going around in the world.

[apocalypsehow]

16. Bookmarking for future reference. n/t.

[petronius]

18. No, it's not necessary, and not particularly helpful

I have Republican friends and family, and while I'm hard-pressed to come up with anything positive to say about their politics, we can usually find things to disagree civilly on, a few things to agree on, and a lot of things to avoid discussing and just get on with our lives. But if we decline to have those conversations because we've written the opposition off as pure mindless evil, then even the small areas of common ground and possible progress are lost.

I assume (hope) that most of the demonizing on political boards is just serving a venting purpose (and it is kind of fun) - nobody can possibly believe that big swaths of the population are as cartoonishly vile as the different groups are portrayed in the various places...

[emilyg]

20. +10

[wellst0nev0ter]

27. Well, I Get What Your Saying

I myself have a sister who I would think is a cartoonishly vile Republican if I didn't know her for so long (just listen to her views on gsys, for example). So you are right that it's not instructive to write off a large part of the country as hopelessly evil. But you can't deny the hopeless evil of a lot of the policies they embrace.

[AmyStrange]

96. Well said...

and that is exactly what we both believe too.

Thank you for sharing,

Dave (and Caty)

[steve2470]

19. The guy who runs the hardware store who is a Republican is usually OK, as a human being

It's more of the leadership at all levels who KNOW what their policies really mean to most of us, that I have a serious problem with. I think most ordinary Republicans who are not hard-right or evangelical Christians, really don't know.

[grasswire]

22. the proper word for *moderate Republican* is "collaborateur"

Those who do not denounce evil in their associates share responsibility for the evil.

There is no other definition.

[Brilliantrocket]

56. This is AMERICA we spell things with an O here!

Collaborator

[somone]

23. My problem is with Republican politicians

I know plenty of Republicans and I don't consider them evil. Some are so damn stupid, though.

[Melinda]

24. Wow, AmyStrange... you poofed like 5 years ago?

And didn't you create/archive DU's original lexicon OR did the meds just kick in? ;)

Oh, and in response... no, and it doesn't.

Welcome back. :hi:

[AmyStrange]

93. Thank you...

-

Hi Melinda,

I blame my absence on the meds (drugs) hehehe.

The DUG (Democratic Underground Glossary) is on one of my computers that died. I have to bring it to a repair shop and transfer all the stuff on the hard drive and then put it up on my website again. Just lazy and poor and of course the meds don't always kick in on time.

Dave (and Caty)

[bemildred]

113. Let me add my "welcome back".

I still have a copy of the DU Glossary around somewhere.
:hi:

[AmyStrange]

118. It feels good to be back...

and if you find DUG, send a copy my way please.

It will be a big help, but the html code is what I really need too.

Dave (and Caty)

[bemildred]

137. DU had an updated copy in the Research forum, which is offline.

I did some work on that from a copy of your stuff. You might contact the admins to see if you could get access.

And I have an old file saved from your old web site, which I can send you if you PM me an address, but it is full of broke links, so I dunno how much good it will do.

[AmyStrange]

144. DUG is up and still UGly...

-

UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Links may not work

http://DUG.amystrange.org/

It looks ok in IE, but have to bring it up to speed so it meets Firefox's standards, it needs a lot of work.

It's when I did html on the fly. Knew how to do it, but not how to do it correctly. Now I know how. Check out our website to see how much I have learned (it's not flashy, but simple and better than the old site --we think anyway):

http://www.amystrange.org/

Dave (and Caty)

[donheld]

25. Yes

[Warpy]

28. I know Republicans in real life and online

who are reasonable people who despise what's happening to the party today. Either they voted for Obama in 2008 or they cast protest votes and were very outspoken about doing so. A few of them have been casting protest votes since 1984 and they realized Reagan was a senile old fool who was going to wreck things.

They're decent and reasonable people, just wrong about how things actually work, especially economic things. They don't support the radical party the GOP has become in the past 30 years and they sure as hell don't support many of the things that have been done in their names over the same period.

I tend to cut decent and reasonable people some slack, to allow them to be wrong about things. Generally they cut me the same sort of slack.

So no, I don't demonize all Republicans. I just demonize the ones who support the right wing lunatic fringe, who allow themselves to be used election after election because they're just too damned lazy to find things out for themselves.

[wtmusic]

29. Lowering ourselves to their level helps not a whit

which is why I refuse to adopt terms like Repuke or Rethug. It's a kneejerk that's ugly and ignorant no matter from where it comes.

My ideals happen to line up nicely with most Democrats', but even labeling yourself one takes you out of thinking mode - you've joined a tribe. I try to know more about topics than those to whom I'm talking, then they can call me whatever they like but they can't fault my opinion.

[pnorman]

30. Kicked and Recommended!

n/t

[DrDan]

31. you are on-target

To demonize, and generalize those on the right as being from one mold, does not do the image of the left any good. There are decent Repubs. Makes us look like we have no ability to discern differences and lends the label of "elitist" credibility.

[Ramulux]

32. It depends on what you mean by demonize

Conservatism is a failed political ideology, both in terms of economics and social issues. From gay rights to immigration from free trade to tax policy, their ideas result in bad things. Many of the problems we have as a nation have been accelerated and sometimes created due to bad conservative ideas being enacted by conservative run administrations.

In my opinion being a conservative and supporting the republican party means you are supporting policies and ideas that harm the people of this country, if saying that qualifies as demonetization then yes, it is necessary to demonize all republicans. We must praise moderate republicans for their clarity of mind on certain issues but not let them off the hook for certain basic political misconceptions.

[StarsInHerHair]

33. if you consider an honest assessment of the Right= to the Right's lies about

Liberals........then I can't help you, the Right has made itself look ugly all on its' own and to deny that is dishonest. There are exceptions, yes, but that doesn't change the direction the Right is rushing towards.

[lame54]

35. Considering they are always - I mean ALWAYS wrong...

I will go with yes

[LeftishBrit]

37. I don't think that all who vote for right-of-centre parties are bad, no.

I think that the fundamentals of RW ideology are bad: i.e. the strong should prevail over the weak; it's people's own fault if they are poor or vulnerable and they should be punished for it; do kick people when they're down, it will do them good; the most important virtue is being good at making money; poor people and minority groups are to blame for all that's wrong with our country; I'm all right Jack and the Devil take the hindmost! And that is secular right-wingers - bring in religious-right attitudes and it becomes VERY nasty.

However, there is only a rather imperfect correlation between being politically right-wing and being 'right-wing' in daily life. There are many reasons for voting for a particular party. Many people approve of right-wing policies and parties politically, but are helpful and sharing and tolerant in real life. And the same the other way around. In fact, the most *personally* 'right-wing' person whom I've known - an authoritarian bully who 'smelled blood' whenever he saw someone in a vulnerable position, and was particularly vicious toward ill or disabled people - was NOT a Tory voter.

So right-wing parties and policies do tend on average to attract the more personally harsh and mean-spirited people - but by no means always!

Also, even at a political level, not every member of a conservative party is truly right-wing. I can think of British Conservatives who were very liberal in most respects, differing from Labourites mainly in terms of being more cautious about making rapid changes, rather than in their fundamental views of society (this was particularly true during the 'postwar consensus' between 1945 and about 1975.) And America has had some very liberal Republicans. And for that matter, there are very RW 'Labourites' and Democrats.

[TheBigotBasher]

69. " an authoritarian bully who 'smelled blood' whenever he saw someone in a vulnerable position"

Blair?

[LeftishBrit]

73. No, though it might describe him!

This was someone whom I knew personally; and who caused me and others whom I know a lot of problems IRL; and would probably have regarded himself as well to the left of Blair.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. At this point, after the last three years of absolute lunacy

coming out of the republican media, everyone who supports the crapfest of hate and violence that is the republican party of 2011 is either stupid or evil. Take your pick.

[JoePhilly]

39. To demonize the average Republican is to make us just as bad ...

as the extreme right ... who demonize all who don't walk in perfect lock step with them. As soon as you make everyone on the other side "evil", its not a long walk before you start talking about "taking them out".

The fact that many who responded to you see all Republicans as evil demonstrates that, sadly, the left has its own set of zealots to deal with.

I will say that I find many elected GOP members bordering on the "evil" line, specifically those who pander and energize the craziest member of the extreme right wing. They should know that throwing that group messages of hate and violence is dangerous. And by pretending to not be aware of that, I have little respect for them as politicians, or as human beings.

[WinkyDink]

40. Elections have consequences. Your roommate (and, I confess, my best friend) add to them.

[Dappleganger]

42. Being married to a conservative...

we have to find common ground. I can assure you that he is anything but "evil". Now our kids are quite liberal, so we joke that he's surrounded and he has to behave. ;)

[chrisa]

43. No way.

There's good and bad on both sides. I believe in only demonizing individuals based on their own actions, not their party affiliation.

[MadHound]

45. I live amongst moderate to conservative Republicans,

It is a consequence of living out in the country. I've found that most are actually decent people who will do anything for you, and I will do anything for them, that is the nature of rural community life. We all know where everybody stands politically, and don't hold it against each other. Surprisingly enough, once you are friends with conservatives, you find it is easy to convert many of them, wean them away from conservative positions through simple human kindness and common sense.

[HughBeaumont]

46. Well, if they continue to insist that Trickle Down was and still is a success, then . . . yes.

I mean, there are plenty of other issues I disagree with them on, but that's the deal-breaker. Laissez-Fail has killed America and yet conservatives STILL cling to it with every last fiber of strength. Many don't even waver or acknowledge the completely obvious and visual harm it's caused.

[chillspike]

47. Who on our side tries to demonize Republicans?

It seems the Left's main complaint against Righties, and with good reason, is that they try to demonize everyone else.

My own reaction to Righties is to simply remind myself and friends that "All of us learn at our own pace".

[dionysus]

71. "Who on our side tries to demonize Republicans?" fwiw, read this thread.

[walldude]

76. Have you not read this thread?

Fuck. It's right in front of you. The first goddamn reply called all Republicans "child molesters".

[wyldwolf]

48. yeah, it kinda is. Here's why

Suppose I heard one of my friends say this to a child:

"yeah, I know you're sick and I know you're poor and your situation is hopeless. I know I can't expect you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps because you have no boots and have no means to even get them. But you know what? I don't care. Tough shit. You can die, because I don't want my tax money helping you out."

Well, that person wouldn't be my friend anymore. But guess what? Every person who votes Republican is indirectly giving a big "Fuck You" to that child. And they should all be demonized for it.

[ehrnst]

49. I haven't seen too many Yankee Republicans since that guy from ME in the video testifying

For marriage Equality.

My late Father in Law (who died in 2000) was another. Mayor of his MN town for 12 years, he was fiscally conservative, but always compassionate. The environmental interests were as important to him as business interests, and several wetland areas owe their continued existence to his creative negotiations with developers. He was a devout Catholic, but taught his kids about Contraception, and believed that abortion was a tragedy, but needed to be legal.

My husband says that his dad would not recognize the Republican Party as it is now, and would not have remained a Republican. My Mother in Law switched her party to Democrat for the 2004 elections, and while she is generally more socially conservative than My Husband, she thought that Bush was pandering to the lowest in people, and that the Republican message was just becoming "mean and angry."

If there are Republicans like that, I'm not seeing them.

[jeff47]

50. We'll stop demonizing all Republicans

when the moderates start trying to do something about The Crazy infecting their party.

[marions ghost]

78. Right!

The Republican "moderates" have enabled the rightwing fringe. Enabled, accepted, and been happy for the votes of. This shows at best--lack of information and brainpower. At worst, it shows willful complicity.

The roommate is a mindless sheep is the problem. And this culture has a place for sheep, right up front. Should you have any respect for that type of blindness & sheepishness?

I say no.

However maybe you can have some dialogue with this person, but don't expect change. Agree to disagree, and style each other's hair. That's how I've dealt with the Republican myopia in my family. I feel sorry for them. I don't highly respect them and I don't TRUST them as far as I can kick them. Still, there are situations where keeping the peace is better than living with tension. This is one of them.

When not dealing with individuals--ie. in political action, and in rhetoric and resistance, I believe it is necessary to paint Republicans with the naked truth about their agenda. And the truth defines them as a party where greedy, selfish, heartless demons find a welcome reception.

[cliffordu]

53. Yes. Yes it is.

[NNN0LHI]

59. Did your roommate vote for McCain/Palin a couple years ago?

[AmyStrange]

116. Yes she did...

and even though she didn't vote for Obama, she likes him and thinks he is smart and actually agrees with some of his ideas. She was really impressed with what he did to keep the middle-class tax cuts and unemployment benefit extensions going.

That's the kind of thing we both agree on. Both sides need to sit down (like we both did) and work things out as best as possible with both sides getting something rather than just one side shutting out the other with an all or nothing attitude. Bipartisanship is the answer and not this stalemate attitude that is rampant in DC right now.

For example, although she isn't too keen on this health care legislation that us dems passed not too long ago, she disagrees vehemently with many of her fellow republicans that it ALL needs to be repealed. She thinks that is just plain stupid, and she is not shy about telling her repub friends this either,

Dave (and Caty)

[NNN0LHI]

138. Thats a problem

Because every single voter I know personally who voted for McCain/Palin has some kind of an issue. I can't quite put my finger on it but they all have something in common that gives me the creeps.

I couldn't sleep in the same place with any one of them. Even in an emergency situation. Seriously. I wouldn't leave my small children with any of them for even short periods of time. Not that they would necessarily do something on purpose to hurt them mind you. But I wouldn't trust them enough not do something accidentally to hurt them either? They just seem to have a strange thought processes that is completely alien to me. Every one of them.

People who vote for candidates who promote torturing other people are not someone I would be around if I had any choice in the matter.

Don

[Dr. Strange]

60. Yes. It's much easier than thinking.

[renate]

62. my vote is No

I think there's a difference between Republicans who watch Fox unquestioningly and those who don't. I also think there's a difference between Republicans who realize how Republican policies damage lives (and don't care) and those who don't realize (and would care if they did).

[Donald Ian Rankin]

63. Depends what you mean by "demonise".

I think that it *is* necessary to point out that all Republicans support policies which would do a great deal of harm, and that they're all wrong about most (although not necessarily all) of the most important political issues of the day.

It's certainly *not* necessary to suggest that they don't do so because they genuinely believe that those policies are good ones, though, or to impugn their integrity or character.

Most Republicans are perfectly nice, decent, wrong people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Necessary? No. Rational? Yes.

Even good sex partners can be evil greedy people.

[Swede]

65. Not at all. They are people with different beliefs.

They believe in small government,strong defense,low taxation,etc.

[Warren Stupidity]

85. nah - they mumble horseshit about those issues

but it turns out that, for example, they don't actually believe in 'small gummint', a belief that is impossible to hold consistently with a belief in 'aggressive military adventures all around the planet and a huge bloated military budget' or 'low taxation', not to mention invasive gummint intrusion into the private affairs of citizens in the name of 'homeland security' or gummint prohibitions on who can marry whom or gummint prohibitions on the medical care women receive from their doctors or...

they just mumble horseshit they hear on tv 'cause they are too firggen stupid to think for themselves, or because they are actually freaking evil and deliberately pushing a massive dishonest pile of bullshit to advance a depraved agenda.

[olegramps]

105. I totally agree.

They very ones who damn the "socialists left wing" are the first in line to take advantage of the legislation that was passed by Democrats against Republican opposition. I can't stand these hypocrites.

[Arugula Latte]

67. A good chunk are evil, and the rest are enablers of evil.

[oldlib]

70. Good Republicans.

The most dangerous repugs are the very rich, as they can influence and direct the right wing policies, easily and often. These are dangerous Republicans. There are hangers on who are independently wealthy, secure in their employment and have money to throw around. These repugs fear taxes the most and, have a reason to be, and should be considered good Republicans. A vast majority are the uninformed, who are poor but accept the party because, they listen to Rush and Beck and slavishly endorse the swill projected. These again are dangerous Republicans.

[KamaAina]

72. Visits with Mom -- and Republican Stepdad -- are always fun

The man reads the NY Post, fer crissakes. :puke: At least he isn't a racist (homophobe, yes). For years he refused to take Mom to France because he thought they had a duty to follow us into Iraq because they owe us from WWII. Seriesly. (The bookshelf in the back room where I sleep is carpeted with military history books.)

And yet he treats Mom like a princess, and he makes her happy. This is a woman who carried me on her shouklders to a McGovern rally in '72. Go figure.

[AmyStrange]

126. Isn't love wonderful (n/t)

-
Dave (and Caty)

[A wise Man]

74. I n short

HELL YES.....NOT ASK IT AGAIN AFTER THEY SCREW THINGS UP AGAIN...AND THE ANSWER WILL STILL BE "YES..YES..YES"!!!!!IF YOU VOTE FOR IDIOTS YOU MUST BE AN IDIOT.

[walldude]

77. Wow the replies here are sickening...

I work with Republicans all the time. Most are decent people who are angry like we are, but are filled with so many lies and so much misinformation that they direct their anger in the wrong places. It makes them ignorant, and granted some are nasty as hell, but judging from the response here I'd say we aren't any better.

Goood Luck Roomies!

The old adage works well, if you want to remain friends don't talk about religion or politics.

[jeff47]

79. So, we should pity them for their ignorance instead? (nt)

[walldude]

88. No. I don't pity someone who willfully ignores the truth.

But let me give you an example...

Last May Nashville was flooded. Half the goddamn city was underwater. When you went into the flood zones there were people there working, neighbors, friends, strangers, carrying sandbags, shovels, buckets and working together to help those in trouble.

When I reached out to help someone they didn't ask me who I voted for and I didn't care who they voted for. I didn't care what fucking church they went to, and I didn't give a shit who they listened to on the radio.

We spent days and days together with people from every political stripe. All working together to help one another. Laughing, crying, working, together.

But I digress, half of them were all fucking ignorant child molesters. :eyes:

[jeff47]

107. And the main reason you were there

Is that the ebil government was stealing their property for this "flood control" crap. And trying to control what they built on THEIR PROPERTY through the building code.

The underlying socialism in people will come out in a crisis. But once the immediate reality disappears, they're creating the next crisis, either by their direct work or their political support.

[Warren Stupidity]

82. like I said, evil or stupid, take your pick.

[walldude]

91. Yeah and yours was one of the nice posts.

So my point stands.

[Warren Stupidity]

97. About your point:

"Most are decent people who are angry like we are, but are filled with so many lies and so much misinformation that they direct their anger in the wrong places. "

which I categorize as "stupid". You can rephrase that anyway you like, but the point remains: they are stupid. The rest understand that the taking points are a load of horseshit, so they are evil.

[walldude]

99. Not stupid. Ignorant. Or lazy.

Big difference.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. Really? Big difference?

So you are ok with "Either ignorant or lazy or evil"? But "stupid or evil" is over the top?

[Pedalpower]

111. SO many people are missing it...

Nobody (almost nobody) sets out to be 'evil' or 'greedy'. If you're close-minded and have no interest in reaching these people, then you can write folks off as evil and/or greedy. No effort required from you (and you sound just like those Pubelickins who believe they're without fault and that the opposition is beyond help)

Conservatives believe that power and success are morality/ the poor and needy are immoral. Silly, but true. (How do they reconcile their fondness for Jesus, for instance?)If you work on conservatives, one-on-one, chipping away at their false base assumptions, you will make progress. But you have to do it nicely. Confront a Con with hostility and they'll back into their Fox-fortified bunkers. ANd you'll have made things worse.

[Warren Stupidity]

125. evil/greedy: very small number, stupid/ignorant: huge number.

[eridani]

106. I'd say ignorant rather than stupid

The former is actually a choice.

[Warren Stupidity]

109. And I am fine with that hair splitting

but the point remains.

[devilgrrl]

108. Which is precisely why I have the attitude toward them that I do.

That they can't see past the lies after all these years - I find that disgusting.

[madamesilverspurs]

80. No, they are self-demonizing.

At least their leadership is. Their leader in the Senate has repeatedly enunciated their intent to do everything they can to prevent a second term for Obama, never mind the horrific consequences for the country. Their leader in the House has chosen to symbolically spit in Obama’s face by repeatedly snubbing Presidential invitations.

The leaders and members hasten to placate the tender sensibilities of Limbaugh, groveling in his grotesque presence to regain his dubious favor. Beck and O’Reilly and others of their ilk are routinely invited to address party gatherings, wherein ‘libruls’ and the ‘Democrat’ party are routinely vilified.

They have spent decades doing everything possible to undermine public education, then “accuse” Obama of being “elite” because he is, of all things, highly educated.

They cast themselves as THE party of faith (ostensibly Christian, but they’ll go with Judeo-Christian if they have to), and they do so while simultaneously engaging in weirdly idolatrous worship of Reagan.

They mock the idea of gender equality by gleefully promoting the blatant idiocies of Palin and Bachmann and Angle.

They embrace the ‘Tea Party’ with its hideous portrayals of Obama, and by extension welcome those white-supremacist groups that have been drawn to and not rebuffed by the ‘Tea Party’.

They stand firmly and loudly on the Second Amendment while pretending that the resulting rhetoric poses no danger.

With pathetically rare exceptions they tacitly endorse the efforts of ‘birthers’.

After fighting tooth and nail for the rights of corporations they daily insult our intelligence by claiming to work on behalf of “the American people.”


And that’s the short list.


-

[treestar]

81. Agree, it is not necessary to demonize those who disagree

And both sides do that. The right wing uses more violent language though.

There are certain people who have to believe that they are right and therefore anyone who disagrees is more than just wrong, but evil and has evil motives.

We could agree conservatives in many cases really believe they are doing the right thing for the country - they just disagree about how - rather than attributing evil motives to them.

Then OTOH there are people who go too far and do have bad motives - racists, for example.

[Martin Eden]

83. Demonize the LIES, and debate IDEAS

The crucially important thing here is to make a distinction between the person who believes the lies ... versus the LIES and the liars who spread them.

4 things I believe:

1) We are not nearly as divided in terms of common interests as we are in our political beliefs.

2) The bitter political divide between average Americans has been fostered & reinforced by the Powers That Be so they can enrich themselves while the peasants fight among themselves. Politically, a House divided against itself cannot stand.

3) The only way this paradigm can be changed is for people from both sides of this divide to have an open and honest dialogue based on facts and about the ideas & principles of self-government.

4) It's not going to be easy. The corporate media has made it exceedingly difficult to find agreement on even the basic facts, and strong emotions (especially FEAR) cloud judgement and preclude rational thought. We have to cut through all the lies and hate and fear to make any real progress, and it's unlikely we can make much headway as individuals soaking up the corporate media or sitting alone at our computers. We're going to have to do this in our actual communities with face-to-face interpersonal relationships ... much like the two roommates who have at least taken the first step of civility and treating each other as human beings deserving of respect.

Once that step is taken, separating fact from fiction and having a rational debate about ideas is made possible.

[DirkGently]

84. No. It's also unnecessary to agree with the lie that both sides are the same.

In fact, part of what is wrong with REPUBLICAN rhetoric is that it demonizes liberals and Democrats as people, aside from policy or ideology.

The ongoing message, from the very top of the Republican establishment -- not just the crazies on the radio -- is that liberal and Democratic policies are "evil," foreign, "anti-American" influences (Marxist, Socialist, Communist, etc etc etc) with the express goal of destroying the country. AND, that "libruls" are, on a personal level, evil creatures to be eliminated.

There is no reciprocal message from the Democratic Party or liberals in general. There is mockery, there is some name-calling, but there is a not theme that either workaday Republicans, or even the Republican Party, are an anti-American evil to be destroyed like a pestilence.

There is not a general theme among liberals I know that workaday Republicans are all bad people who need to be swept out of American society forever.

The onus, therefore, is on Republicans to clean up their own rhetoric, before coming to Democrats and liberals asking for civility.

Let's hear the Republican Party denounce the "death panels" meme outright. Let's hear Rep. Steve King retract his "birth certificate remark." Let's see Republican leadership thoroughly and irrevocably denounce the rhetoric of guns and bullets and bloodlust.

Then we can talk about toning down whatever supposed incivility is flowing in the other direction.

[Fumesucker]

86. Necessary? Well, in the strictest sense no..

But it sure is fun! :evilgrin:

[Bigmack]

87. I'd compare "moderate" Repubs...

to the enablers in a co-dependent relationship. They know the crazies are running their party, but they do little to tone them down. I admit they try... but they are about as effective as us Peace Dems are in ending the Empire.

[Iggo]

89. That is the default position, yes. (n/t)

[devilgrrl]

90. Why not? What has the GOP done in the past 30 years to dispell those attitudes?

Quite frankly, unless you are an exclusive member of the top 1% of the wealthiest - you have no business being a Republican. You are great for keeping those assholes wealthy though. You'll never be that wealthy but don't let that stop you from buying into the myth and don't be shocked if people view you as "evil".

Have a nice day.

[WilliamPitt]

92. Great to see you again.

And my answer is "No."

Scott Brown, for one, has acted relatively human to date. My grandfather was a Republican, and was the best man I've ever known.

[AmyStrange]

98. Hi Will...

-

always good to hear from you,

Dave (and Caty)

[bobbolink]

94. Yes, it's "necessary"... AND Boomers, AND southerners, AND AND AND

Its soooo gratifying to try to make oneself feel superior by putting down others.

Also, its a very big vote getter.

[architect359]

100. No. Not my style. n/t

[semillama]

101. Any one trying to demonize Lacy Davenport will have to answer to me! n/t

[uppityperson]

104. Demonizing, dehumanizing. Neither helps except to continue the dichotmous "us vs them" crap

I have some republican acquaintances, family members, friends as well as democratic, green, independent ones. Some are good people, some are assholes. Some support humane causes, others don't.

Dehumanizing, demonizing, splitting into "us" and "them" doesn't help.

[DatManFromNawlins]

110. The weak and weak-minded...

... demonize people who differ with them ideologically because it gives them an excuse from having to defend their ideas in a rational manner.

[Rhiannon12866]

112. Welcome back to DU, Dave!

It's great to see you! I was thinking about you just the other day when I saw one of your post on the home page, from 2003, I think. It's great to have you back and to know that things are going well for you... :hi:

[AmyStrange]

121. Thank you Rhiannon...

-

Caty loves your dog picture by the way,

Dave (and Caty)

[Rhiannon12866]

130. Thanks so much!

My little guy is always able to make me smile, too. :) Here's a better pic, hope that she likes that one, too. His name is Jack, a four-year-old Brussels Griffon, and he's rescue, unusual for such an unusual breed. It's great to see you back! We've missed you here... :hi:

Jack :loveya:

[ThoughtCriminal]

115. Some of the stupid ones aren't very evil

So they just vote for demons out of ignorance and poor critical thinking skills.

[Electric Monk]

117. Yes. They chose to be that way. NT

[NuclearDem]

119. It's necessary to vehemently oppose ideas

But it's completely unnecessary to demonize and dehumanize. Just think back to your basic high school/college speech classes; the second you start calling someone with a complete opposite opinion names, you've lost them.

So really, progressives who broadbrush Republicans are almost just as culpable in the willful ignorance of some on the other side as the right-wing noise machine that purposefully distorts their minds.

[bluestate10]

123. Truly moderate republicans are acceptable.

As long as they don't fall into the demonetization of the poor mindset that dominates their party's policies. I must admit that I have not met a republican during the last decade that I would vote for or even feel comfortable talking to.

[AmyStrange]

127. Thank you everyone for sharing...

-

I wish I could answer you all individually, but unfortunately we have a website to work on.

Love you all -even those who disagree with us. Disagreements are what make horse races (and just about anything really) so darn interesting,

Dave (and Caty)

[Bluenorthwest]

134. What a tarty and rude comment, you asked the question

everybody has work. Fuck. That is exactly the Republican thing. And just so you both know, I flat out assume Republicans are anti-gay bigots of the first order, because their Party is exactly that. Anyone who takes the name is stating that they are opposed to my equal protection under the law, to my liberty and individuality, as they always shout about individuals and all of that.
They are presumed to be festering bags of hate who use fetus fetishes as a smokescreen for being perversely concerned with the private lives of others, and their constant quest to control every facet of our daily lives, from our bedrooms to our sick beds.
Why the fuck is my life their business? Invading every aspect of life with their atavistic and neurotic fears.
I guess they'd be alright if they just lived as they want, but they want to make every last person bow to their own twisted view of things, and fuck them, their State Religion, their bigotry, hypocrisy and bad haircuts.

[NuclearDem]

135. Speaking of tarty and rude...

:eyes:

See what the fucking problem is? When even a Republican MODERATE expresses even the slightest statement of good will (or at the very least, a lack of animosity), we turn it right around into an insult directed at us.

[Warren Stupidity]

143. !

[Urban Prairie]

128. Some "moderate conservatives" can never vote Democratic

For one reason above any/all others, and that is because they are Christian, and they are taught by their church clergy that abortion is murder and is a sin. They hope/pray to have the best possible chance that they possibly can to go to Heaven, by leading or trying to lead an honest and pious life, therefore voting for Democrats is being indirectly complicit/consenting to murder and they would be a sinner in their Creator's "eyes".

However, for conservative Roman Catholics, who vote Republican for this reason, the revelation that their Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops were knowingly complicit in shielding and hiding their pedophile priests, this fact must have shaken their faith to its very foundations, because physically and emotionally harming innocent children is just as much a sin in their faith as abortion is, and by continuing to support their church through contributions and by attendance, they are/were being indirectly complicit/consenting and are just as much "sinners" as those Roman Catholics liberals/progressives who vote for Democrats that are in favor of abortion continuing to be legal.

[butterfly77]

129. Yes...

[TheKentuckian]

133. If by "demonize" you mean to tell the truth then Fuckin' A!

What is it they are called out for in anything like general terms that isn't broadly true?

I've got a good friend that is technically a Republican but she doesn't vote for the fuckers. Actual Republicans are stupid, evil, insane, or occasionally recovering which means getting over whatever was the malfunction.

Day to day serious TeaPubliKlans are on the whole, rather fucked up and out to do real life harm to folks by the millions. That shit ain't cool just because if you exclude the millions from the conversation that it goes pretty well.

Also, the level of demonstrable failure of their ideology creates ever decreasing patience for their inane bullshit. I don't feel fuckwits need a high level of latitude to spout off what at this point is essentially batshit nonsense.

If you've been around the past generation or two then their is no excuse to be "deluded" in any way. If you believe in trickle down, or that Ronald Regan was some saint, or in the empire, or corporate rule, or deregulation, or the bigotry then it is very willful. There is little poor excuse for the dug in clinging to a pile of pigshit piled up to the sky.

Telling the truth on them is beyond crucial. If it is nasty, it is most certainly on them. You suffer from making a goal the way you want to do business in a world that hasn't caught up and may never will. There is no historical model of this super-majority common wisdom deal you are caught up in. I expect it sometime after the replicators, transporters, and probably warp drive.

In this reality somebody wins and it is seldom the one ideologically devoted to giving ground and elevating the opposition. Fact is they are not at all "loyal opposition" with reasonable disagreements. It is not functionally the case.

[CBHagman]

136. The only way anything gets done in this country...

...is through the usual means: dialogue, alliances, swaying public opinion. A bit of strategy and boldness won't go amiss. But yes, we need to see people as people, not party labels, and on top of that the GOP isn't monolithic. Nowadays the national and state leadership keeps pushing the party rightward, and of course there's the tea party, but there are quite a few of us still alive remember the Republican liberals and moderates of yesteryear.

And yes, we're going to have to work with conservative Republicans sometimes. That was good enough for Paul Wellstone and Ted Kennedy.

[Moral_Imagination]

139. LOL Republicans are not demonized here much at all...

Mostly just Obama is demonized here.

[Generic Other]

141. They are the ones who put the devil horns on their heads

You lie down with Beelzebub you get up smelling like sulphur.

[genna]

145. Yes. Especially when the shoe fits.

Attacking for the sake of attacking...no.

I used to enjoy Tucker Carlson because I thoought at least he was clever, but when they become unhinged it is difficult not to characterize their drama for what it is.