Okay, Tax Cuts Were Extended. So, Where Are The Jobs?

[Yavin4]

Show me the jobs. No more uncertainty corporate America. Where are the jobs?


We must ask this question every damn day.

[rucky]

1. The 2% of small business that falls into the upper 2% tax bracket...

doesn't feel comfortable hiring right now, under a temporary 2-year extension. Sorry, suckers!

[COLGATE4]

39. Yeah. It just didn't give them the 'certainty' that they all claim they

need to stop buying back stock and hoarding their cash and start employing people again.

[T Wolf]

2. I asked my asshole reich-wing cousin this question this morning. Asked him when he was placing the

ads for the positions he would be adding at his company.

Haven't gotten an answer - don't expect to.

But if I do, I'll be sure to let you know.

[somone]

3. We still need more deregulation and more tax breaks

because corporations are still uncertain as to whether their trillions in cash reserve are really, really, really sufficient. Hopefully the next Congress and the president can work together to address this minor issue :sarcasm:

[jimlup]

4. Yeah, I'm heart sick about this

It marks the beginning of the end. I now see Obama losing in 2012. That means we are in for deep and long lasting shit storm. All the promise of 2008 wasted. Some people here are all happy that he's "passed more progressive legislation than ever in just two years". But I think that is smoke and mirrors. Honestly, I'm starting to think we have essentially the same government as we'd have had under Mclame. Really, I'm not joking. Essentially the same health care deal (perhaps even slightly more progressive) and perhaps even a more liberal financial banking regulations deal. The state of the wars would be about the same. Well OK, we probably wouldn't have passed a less than adequate stimulus bill so the economy would be slightly worse off but otherwise, it is essentially the same government. Don't delude yourselves.

Of course we'd all be scared to death about keeping the man's heart beating...

[kentuck]

5. No. They are saying 2 years is not enough.

There has to be more certainty.

[somone]

6. Another ten years might be sufficient

like last time!

[niceypoo]

8. Another two years might be sufficient to put us into default

If the US goes into bankruptcy because of this, it is purely Obamas fault for not being willing to fight.

[TBF]

12. Not being willing to fight -

that is very generous. I don't think he had any intention of "fighting" - at least not on behalf of the working class.

[somone]

25. He fights AGAINST the working class

It's a requirement for membership in the super elite

[WizardLeft62]

34. HealthCare Bill Was Cooked Long Before

Obama's HealthCare Bill Was Cooked Long Before it was ever finalized in the "formal sense," as it met the standards of the Big Insurance and Pharmaceutical Companies.

Obama likes this corporate stuff and he is the Corporate President in the image of Ronald Reagan.

You cannot push a center-right president to the liberal side either. Obama also belives in wars and free trade agreements too.

Obama does not care about the rabble either. He cares about re-election and pleasing his corporate backers.

[COLGATE4]

40. K&R. Give this Poster a cigar!!!!!

[niceypoo]

7. Tax cutting destroyed our economy

Supply side economics drives wages down and unemployment up. The whole thing is madness.

[slackmaster]

10. The extra $200 per month I get from the current tax structure gets plowed back into the economy

I'm helping to keep a lot of people employed.

[niceypoo]

11. That is what got us here

So more tax cuts will save us from the ruin caused by reckless tax cutting? Why do Democrats now sound like republicans?

[slackmaster]

14. Let me tell you what I'd do if my take-home pay went down by $200 per month

I feel very strongly that the federal government should not take in any more money until the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the War On (some) Drugs are ended.

If taxes were raised by $200 per month, I'd increase my 401k contributions by about $714 per month so as to avoid having my tax withholding increase by a penny.

I know I'll end up paying tax on that income eventually (because I will either be dead or have mandatory distributions), but I'd prefer to take a chance on having more sensible people in control of how it's spent in the future.

So more tax cuts will save us from the ruin caused by reckless tax cutting?

Reckless spending by the GW Bush administration caused the problem.

[slackmaster]

9. It's up to people to create jobs, not government

Have you ever thought about starting your own business?

Are you especially good at something? Is there something you really love doing, that could be commercialized?

[niceypoo]

13. More GOP talking points

Lets just privatize everything

[slackmaster]

15. More Commie talking points

Let's have everyone work for the government.

[TheKentuckian]

17. At least everyone is working

[MadHound]

18. Hmm, that's what a lot of people said about FDR and his jobs creation program

Nice to see that Red baiting hasn't gone out of style.

Where are these jobs going to come from in the private sector? Jobs won't pick up until demand picks up. Demand won't pick up until jobs pick up. And around and around we go on that vicious downward spiral. Every reputable economist since Keynes has put forth that the government is the jobs creator of last resort when times are tough.

But you think that is somehow Communism. Well, you're in good company with that opinion, one that has been held by the Liberty League, the John Birch Society and other fringe RW groups. Aren't you proud.

[slackmaster]

19. Jeebus Crisco, all I did was suggest that Yavin4 consider starting a business

And I got tarred as a spreader of "GOP talking points". I wasn't red-baiting, MadHound, just responding in kind to a hyperbolic straw man with a bigger hyperbolic straw man.

The hard fact is that only about 8% of the jobs in this country are public-sector. Private business is the real engine of the economy; more than 90% of employed people work for businesses.

About 53% of people who are employed work for SMALL BUSINESSES. The main problem with our economy right now is high unemployment.

Do I need to help you connect the dots, MadHound?

[MadHound]

21. Yeah, right, you weren't red baiting. Go ahead, pull the other one.

You are correct about private industry driving our economy, but the fact of the matter is that the engine is dead right now Jim, not running because there is none of that magic ingredient that makes it run in a consumer oriented economy, demand.

No private business is going to open unless they perceive enough demand to make them profitable. No private business is going to hire more workers unless they perceive that the demand for more product is out there. In fact they will do what they're doing now, laying off workers, cutting back on hours, since labor is the number one expense of any business.

So, with no demand and no incentive to hire, what are we supposed to do? Urging people to open their own small business is pretty foolish in most cases right now. With such a slack demand curve, in such an economy, you are almost doomed from the start. Not to mention that despite sitting on trillions of dollars of cash, banks simply aren't lending right now, for small businesses or anything else.

You are spouting RW talking points in this regard. Virtually every RW idiot I see or hear says that people should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps, and start their own business. Really? Are you going to lend me the money to get started, because the bank surely isn't. Are you going to be around to clean up when the business craters (and even in the best of times, eighty percent of small business start ups fail within a couple of years)? The naivete of simply telling somebody to start up their own small business completely ignores the reality of today's economic climate.

Which leads us back to the government, who is, according to all reputable economists from Keynes on, the hirer of last resort. When times are tough and jobs are scarce, that is when the government is supposed to step in and create jobs. Those jobs will stimulate demand in the private sector, and thus break that vicious cycle. Not to mention that our infrastructure would get a much needed set of repairs and upgrades(it is the worst national infrastructure in the developed world after all).

That isn't Communism, that is called doing the right thing by your country, your constituents. But you are hurling around "Commie" much like the Liberty League did over sixty years ago. Aren't you proud to be in such company:eyes:

Furthermore, virtually nobody likes to pay taxes, OK. You bitch, I bitch, we all bitch about paying taxes. But intelligent people realize that, first off, paying taxes is a duty that you owe to your country. They also realize that we cannot continue on this tax cutting spree without serious negative consequences. Those Bush tax cuts have already cost us over four trillion dollars in debt, and are now set to cost us at least another trillion. You cannot offset that kind of debt without some serious spending cuts. Yes, we could cut defense spending, but you tell me, how likely is that going to happen? Yeah, that's right, snowball, hell. So where are the spending cuts going to come from? I'll tell you, they're going to come from SS, Medicare, and other programs that benefit the elderly, the poor and the middle class. Are those the kind of spending cuts you want, the kind that force people out of their homes and toss the elderly out onto the street?

None of us when bankrupt under the Clinton tax rates during the nineties. And yet we had an economy humming along(granted it was a bubble economy, but still), a surplus in our national account, and plenty of jobs for all. In fact I doubt that most people even noticed the few dollars that the Bush tax cuts added to their pocket. Paying one's taxes isn't, and shouldn't be an onerous chore in this country. It is the price we pay for having stable, and, relatively speaking, good government that takes care of the weak, the poor, the elderly.

With these new tax cuts, we are now changing that narrative, that grand national narrative, and kicking the poor, the weak and the elderly to the curb so that we can follow Reagan's tax cut mantra to the very bitter end. Yes, tax cuts are a GOP plank, in fact they are GOP gold, part of that mythical trickle down economic theory that has been invalidated time and again. The fact that Obama and so many other so called Dems are going merrily along with the GOP just shows how low the Democratic party has sunk, and how dire a situation we're facing in this country.

But hey, let's just say that those who take a stand with FDR, Keynes, JFK and other proud Dems are now Communists. I'll still stand with them, after all, I'll be in good company. Oh, and that whole Commie meme thing, it's lost a lot of currency and potency since the Soviet Union fell.

[slackmaster]

23. Our employer of last resort has pissed away over 3 TRILLION on just the Iraq war

That could have fixed a lot of potholes and rebuilt a lot of bridges.

[MadHound]

26. So your answer is for that employer of last resort to continue pissing away money on tax cuts?

Sadly, we'll all see how that works out in the end. In fact, with just the threats of these tax cuts going through, we're already seeing the negative consequences of those tax cuts. Moody's is considering downgrading our credit rating, Russia and China have abandoned the dollar as the exchange currency in bilateral trade, oil exporting countries are starting to switch to a basketful of currencies as the medium of exchange instead of the once mighty petrodollar, and the yield on Treasuries has gone up. This all lays the foundation for steeper borrowing prices for our government, weakening of the dollar and more inflation, possibly hyperinflation.

You don't continue to throw good money after bad, but that is just what we're doing. Sadly, we're all going to pay the price. And now, with these tax cuts, Obama and the Dems have hamstrung the government's ability to be the employer of last resort. So yippee! Our unemployment is going to remain high on top of everything else.

Let's see if the private sector can, or will get us out of this mess. We'll still be waiting ten years or more down the road. After all, the original Bush tax cuts created negative job growth after ten years, and the Obama tax cuts are going to do the same.

[slackmaster]

28. My answer is to end the wars. Middle-class tax cuts are good for the economy.

Go ahead and raise taxes on the wealthy.

[MadHound]

29. I agree we need to end the wars,

But continuing the failed tax cut policy, I don't care if it is for the middle class or upper class, is simply economic madness. Three trillion of the four trillion we spent on the Bush tax cuts was due to middle class tax cuts.

Tax cuts don't create jobs, in fact they are the least effective form of economic stimulus out there, bar none. Oh boy, you get a few hundred back at the end of the year, what are most people going to do with it? Pay off debt, put it in savings, invest it, this has been shown time and time again. The stimulus value of a tax cut is almost nil.

We would be far better off taking that trillion that Obama just pissed away and starting a true, WPA style jobs creation program with it. It would vastly stimulate the economy, so much so that what most people lost in the rise of their tax load would be more than made up for by renewed economic growth, ie overtime, pay raises and such. That was what happened under the Clinton tax rates, people were doing so well that they didn't fret over what they were paying in taxes, outside the rich and deluded RW.

We have followed the tax cut mantra for thirty years now, and you still think that they are a good thing? Haven't you been paying attention? All tax cuts do is transfer money up the socioeconomic ladder, from the poor and middle class to the rich and well off. They don't create jobs, they don't stimulate the economy, they simply increase our debt load which is now going to be balanced on the back of the poor and middle class, like it always is.

Sheesh, this place has gone nuts. Who would have thought almost ten years ago when this place started up that we would have so called Democrats spouting 'Pug talking points on taxes, and praising the failed tax cutting policies of the GOP.

[slackmaster]

30. People who get a tax refund aren't managing their finances as well as they could

I shoot for writing small checks to the IRS and to my state every April 15. I see the present tax structure (tax cuts if you prefer) as $200 per month to spend or invest that I wouldn't otherwise have any control over. I feed that money into numerous local businesses, and that activity helps keep people who are employed to stay that way.

Tax cuts don't create jobs, in fact they are the least effective form of economic stimulus out there, bar none. Oh boy, you get a few hundred back at the end of the year, what are most people going to do with it? Pay off debt, put it in savings, invest it, this has been shown time and time again. The stimulus value of a tax cut is almost nil.

The problem with that view, politically, is that people have grown accustomed to the present tax rates. They don't view them as the result of temporary cuts, which in fact they are; people would view a return to the previous rates as an increase, and you know that's how the Republicans would spin it if we let it happen - "Democrats allowed one of the largest tax increases blah blah blah..."

Cut my take-home by $200 per month, and that of other consumers like me, and we'll all be force to tighten our belts and spend less. Consumer spending drives much of the economy.

I quit a job in June 2009 because they declined to give me a pay increase for three consecutive years. I found a job that's closer to home, more interesting, and pays a lot better. At the moment I'm able to spend and invest at a much higher rate than I was two years ago, but if my take-home pay gets cut I will immediately start spending a lot less.

We would be far better off taking that trillion that Obama just pissed away and starting a true, WPA style jobs creation program with it.

I'd rather see it spent that way than on big corporate bailouts or even on unemployment benefits. At least the public gets some tangible results from WPA type work; some of our finest pieces of public infrastructure like Hoover Dam came out of that kind of government intervention.

There's some overlap in our views. Thank you for making an effort to keep the conversation polite and respectful.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[COLGATE4]

41. Oh, for Christ's sake. Drop the Rethug talking points....

[Rex]

31. Believe it or not, there are PEOPLE working for the govt!

I know, hard to believe.

[slackmaster]

32. Yes, about 8% of the US workforce is employed by the federal government, or a state or locality

More than 90% of US jobs are in the private sector, and ultimately the creation of new private-sector jobs will be the driving force for economic recovery.

[Rex]

35. Nope, it will be up to the feds to come up with work programs

because Corporate America has said there are no new jobs, so stop asking. I mean, if you believe in fantasy then yes the private sector will create enough jobs to make a dent in our double digit unemployment figures.

[slackmaster]

36. Most people don't work for large corporations

53% of employed people work for small businesses.

There are job openings in my city. Not everyone can find work doing what he or she is accustomed to doing or wants to do, but there are jobs.

If I lost my job (at a medium-sized privately owned financial services company), I'd seriously consider starting some kind of specialty widget manufacturing operation in my garage. I'm getting very sick of the rat race.

[Rex]

37. Oh i hear you there!

I left the cubicle behind 10 years ago and through it all am very happy with who I work for now. I just believe it will take more then the private sector to start the economy back up. Most people don't work for large corporations, maybe, but said corporations have all the influence and power while the small business owner has next to none. I've been working for a small business owner and see the job creation, but also see how little help he gets because he has no influence or power with the people that matter.

[slackmaster]

42. Government has to stop wasting money on pointless foreign wars

Then it will have money to spend on things like jobs.

[DenverDad]

16. But tax-cuts don't create jobs.

Deporting all the dark immigrants is what will create jobs for Americans.:sarcasm:

[WizardLeft62]

38. Yep and.

1. Obama’s tax bill of 2010 GUTS Social Security
2. Obama lowers estate tax for the rich
3. Obama double downs on Bush Wars, (have become Obama’s wars)
4. Obama attacks Teacher Unions (teacher unions now hate OBAMA)
5. Obama does not attack the Banks? he bails them out? (Just like the GOP)
6. Obama passes the Romney/Dole Health Care Bill (Romney/Dole are Republicans)
7. Obama is/was against the Public Option
8. Obama opposed Drug re-importation
10. Obama hand picks the "Cat Food Commission" to destroy Social Security
11. Guantanomo still open for business
14..Patriot Act renewed again by Obama
15. Renditions continue by Obama
16. Ben Bernanke was reappointed by Obama
17. Americans are targeted for assassination by Obama
18. Obama supports more off shoring of American jobs
19. Obama’s tax cuts help the wealthy and harm greatly the poor, elderly and disabled.
20. Obama sits back and does nothing but support the TSA
21. Obama freezes federal wages for 2 years and no COLA for another year with Social Security
22. Obama TARP Funds for Legal Services for Foreclosure Victims are blocked by the U.S. Treasury
23. Obama attacks Unions (His Big Screw You to the UAW is very Republican)
24. Obama endorses the Bush agenda of spying on, and killing Americans

[HughBeaumont]

20. They're ON THE CLOCK.

Whip up jobs. Whip them up fast. You've had 10 fucking years. NO more, assholes.


Sooner or later, I'm just wondering when the hoi polloi are going to stop believing Republican economic theory . . .

[Starry Messenger]

22. Why should they care?

The only thing they fear is masses of people out in the streets.

[sad sally]

27. Don't worry about that (people in the streets) - that's what all

them law enforcement people with state-of-the-art riot gear (including really BIG MEAN gus) are for - to keep the "little people" in line.

[ecstatic]

33. I hate to say this, but certain jobs won't be back

Ever. So it's best to either move, somehow get a business loan to start a new business, retrain or whatever it takes to get working again.