We would have been better off to extend unemployment benefits and let ALL the tax cuts expire.

[NaturalHigh]

Nobody wants to pay higher taxes, so I know this will be unpopular. The unemployment benefits were necessary to avoid more foreclosures and keep people from getting tossed into the streets. Letting the tax cuts expire, though, would have caused all of our tax rates to go back to the Clinton-era rates. As I recall, the economy was actually pretty good under Clinton.

We are going to need all that revenue the new tax cuts will cost us. As far as I'm concerned, Congress let us all down by passing down this massive debt to future generations.

[rucky]

1. We tried it as a standalone. It failed.

[mbperrin]

10. When was that vote?

Think I missed it.

I got this one, though. Say good-bye to Social Security, the only government program that actually has a surplus. Now we can beat it down and get rid of it as a liability.

Wonderful job.

[Myrina]

12. Yeah, I missed that too ..

:wtf:

[rucky]

26. CNN

http://money.cnn.com/2010/11/18/news/economy/unemployment_benefits_extension/index.htm

[TBF]

30. So let it expire and blame the republicans. nt

[bushisanidiot]

52. Tea baggers wet dream campaign slogan

"President Obama and the 'Democrat Congress' raised your taxes in a recession!"

[TBF]

83. It's not like he's going to win anyway - and think what we could do with all the money if

rich folks actually had to pay taxes.

But sound bites are much more important. :eyes:

[Egnever]

90. .

The irony of your post is astounding.

[TBF]

92. ..

well you got your tax cut, I hope you're happy.

It will actually save my immediate family about $20K a year. I'd happily let that go to unemployment and other programs for people who need it, but obviously you know better. Happy Holidays smart person.

[dkf]

84. It did expire and we did blame the Republicans.

It has expired several times creating weeks and months of gaps every time.

You notice how it hurt them in the election?

And the next crop of incoming Repubs are harsher than the last crew.

[mbperrin]

86. So we gave up on November 18? Wow.

"The $12.5 billion bill that was on the floor Thursday needed two-thirds approval, or 275 votes, a tough hurdle. The vote was 258 to 154."

So we let a 100 minus margin dictate to us?


So from a week before Thanksgiving til now, we could think of nothing whatsoever to do to pass extensions standalone? Even with 258 in favor?

Wonder how LBJ pushed through the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Head Start, and lots of others in the face of extremely stiff opposition? How?

Well, then, throw Social Security away for some temporary advantage that can't ever seem to made into votes; and give billionaires another jolly Christmas present! Yay!

[rucky]

98. The tax compromise was cut way too quickly.

But House democrats had very little to do with it. Pelosi didn't have a chance to bring it up again a different way.

[TBF]

Got a link for that - I missed that vote. nt

[Zoeisright]

2. How exactly was that supposed to happen?

And the tax rate would have gone up the most for the lowest bracket - by 50%. Think again.

[niceypoo]

5. Tax cuts = economic collapse

At what point do we stop pretending we are republicans?

[SOS]

80. $29 a year

That's the average value of the Bush tax cuts to the bottom fifth.
$2.40 a month
60 cents a week.

A 50% tax increase sounds terrible, but the actual increase for the bottom fifth would average 60 cents a week.
People earning over $1 million save an average of $114,000 a year under the Cheney system.

And by allowing Making Work Pay to expire, people earning under $20K will be getting a tax increase in 2011.
A person earning $15K will be worse off under this tax deal than he would have been under expiration.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3220

[mbperrin]

91. Anybody in the lowest bracket paying any income tax is plain foolish.

They most likely qualify for Earned Income Credits, where they receive thousands back that they never had to pay in.

http://www.hrblock.com/taxes/tax_calculators/rate_tables/earnedincome_childtax.html

Here's the calculator:

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/tax-planning/earned-income-tax-credit-calculator.aspx

[TwilightGardener]

3. President Obama promised not to raise taxes on the middle class.

So your proposal was a no-go right from the start.

[Cleita]

11. Obama doesn't make law, so how could he promise

it anyway and he already has broken some promises.

[TwilightGardener]

31. All Presidents promise stuff. And they are rightfully held to their promises, even

if they find themselves unable to get things through Congress. He would be held accountable for breaking his promise RE the middle class cuts, same as he is now accountable for not letting the wealthy's cuts expire.

[ladjf]

45. He did more than "promise". He passionately advocated not

allowing tax cuts for the wealthy.

[TwilightGardener]

50. And he had to break that. I don't think he was exactly delighted to do so, either.

But he did keep one promise, to the middle class. So...that's where we are.

[ladjf]

60. I'm not satisfied with the equation. nt

[TwilightGardener]

65. No one is. I'd rather have seen the wealthy's cuts expire. It didn't happen that way.

Plenty of blame to go around, but I don't see it as a catastrophe.

[ladjf]

66. I see it as assisting the rich in their race to take all of the money

as fast as possible. nt

[TwilightGardener]

69. I don't see it that way, but I respect that you do.

[ladjf]

72. Thanks for the tolerance and civility. I don't see enough of that on DU.

[TwilightGardener]

78. No problem--happy holidays!

:hi:

[Marr]

14. Good one!

I assume you're making a joke.

Obama couldn't do it because it would go against his campaign rhetoric. Must be one of his New Year's resolutions.

[niceypoo]

18. He promised he would allow tax cuts for the rich to expire

How did that work out?

[TwilightGardener]

24. It's a broken promise, that's for sure. But I suppose he decided not

to break two of them in one fell swoop of inaction (just letting them expire, that is).

[niceypoo]

46. Why are promises to Democrats broken, but republicans are handed everything they want?

It's like Bush on steroids.

[TwilightGardener]

53. They didn't resolve the tax cut issue before the midterms. The window

of opportunity closed, that was the end of having a strong negotiating position.

[niceypoo]

58. Bullshit

Obama did what he wanted to do. He could have just let them expire.

[TwilightGardener]

64. Why would he do that? He's not going to take money out of the middle class's pockets

just to spite the wealthy. And then the Repubs would just initiate tax cut legislation (permanent) in January, tie it to something desperately needed like unemployment or the debt ceiling, and any stimulative measures would have been left out--because they don't want the economy to improve. And Obama might have been a hero on DU (but probably not, they'd be mad at him for some other reason), but he'd be a zero to just about everyone else who's not interested in Democratic principles and legislative victories.

[niceypoo]

87. "just to spite the wealthy"

You are spouting the republican talking point that 'ending Bush tax cuts punishes the wealthy'

The tax cuts caused the problem. http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/16/news/economy/tax_cuts_economic_impact">Tax cuts do NOT stimulate. Sorry, but even the middle class will have to bite the bullet if we want to avoid DEFAULTING ON THE NATIONAL DEBT.

[Foo Fighter]

97. VERY good question.

Bush on steroids indeed.

When did Bush ever NOT get what he wanted, even with a Republican minority in both Houses of Congress?

When did Obama EVER push through anything he promised during his campaign, even with a Dem majority in both Houses of Congress?

Face it: when the Dems are in the majority, they claim they're "powerless" because of the Republicans. Yet when the Dems are in the minority, they claim the same thing: those damn Republicans just won't let them do what they want.

The reality is that the Dems use the "powerless" claim as a cover to to allow them cow-tow to the wishes of their big-time contributors. And the Dem supporters buy it because hey, those Repubs are soooo much worse. In reality, they're two sides of the same coin and the sooner the people realize it, the better.

[Nite Owl]

27. Strange that this is the promise

he chooses to keep isn't it.

[TwilightGardener]

33. No. I would in fact find it extremely strange if he DIDN'T keep it, in this economy.

[slackmaster]

4. A lot of people would have been upset to see their take-home pay cut in January

Bad, bad idea.

[niceypoo]

7. Fiscal responsibility

Sometimes requires a little sacrifice

[slackmaster]

28. It would have cost me about $200 per month.

Let me know when the federal government stops spending billions of our money on futile, senseless wars; then feel free to talk to me about fiscal responsibility.

[NaturalHigh]

79. Yes, agreed.

[Cleita]

17. Yes, tea partiers and others I'm sure but

most Democrats in my immediate circle of acquaintances seemed to think it was the sensible thing to do even if their taxes went up.

[slackmaster]

29. I'd be glad to contribute more, but only after the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are ended

The government is wasting HUGE amounts of OUR MONEY.

[NaturalHigh]

20. I didn't say it would have been popular...

but I still think we would have been much better off.

[slackmaster]

32. "We?"

I think I can make better use of $200 per month than the federal government can.

[TBF]

88. So instead we let the rich hold us hostage and loot the treasury again?

Nice plan.

[slackmaster]

94. I don't have any great love for the rich or care how much they're taxed

Our government has spent more than $3 TRILLION on the Iraq war.

[sharp_stick]

6. I probably would have gone for that

but how exactly would we have accomplished that? AFAIC there wasn't a chance in hell of the pukes allowing the tax cuts to expire without imploding the unemployment benefits. Now we are also getting votes on DADT and probably the START treaty as well before the new Congress comes into play.

I'll take the extension of the tax cuts to get those three in return.

Now, if the Dems had agreed to make the tax cuts permanent as a lot of the pukes wanted to do that would be another story.

[LibDemAlways]

16. The tax cuts have become a Republican sacred cow, and the Dems are playing along.

This extension will eventually be made permanent.

[sharp_stick]

25. I wish I could see into the future

it must be an incredible gift.

Unfortunately sometimes you have to give something up. Like I said I'll take this in return for START, DADT and the Unemployment Extension.

Selling out gays in the military and the unemployed to ideology just wouldn't be worth it to me. I'm a lot more of a Partisan than an ideologue.

[LibDemAlways]

35. The R's are completely unwilling to give an inch on tax cut for the rich.

Unless we somehow manage to get a filibuster proof Democratic majority without a bunch of DINOs thrown into the mix, I fail to see how these cuts will ever go away. They will continue to be used as leverage for any decent legislation.

[MilesColtrane]

67. Tax cuts for the rich will expire one day,...

if only to fund soldiers to keep the underclass from storming their compounds and killing them.

[NaturalHigh]

38. Ideology has nothing to do with the fact that our country is getting deeper and deeper into debt.

We have to pay our own way eventually.

[Cleita]

8. Not only that, the Republican Congress would have

brought back the tax cuts anyway in January and then they would have owned the fallout instead of us. Now we own it. In the meantime we might have gotten some good out of the lame duck session.

[niceypoo]

15. Republicans dont control the senate

They cant do shit unless the Dems allow it and Obama signs it

[Cleita]

21. Yes, they do.

Have you not been watching the events of the last two years? The filibuster rules allow the majority to be ruled by the minority. Also, our Dems and Obama enable them. It's what i've seen happen since they have so-called been in power. What makes you think they will suddenly change their spots and not cave into the Republicans over and over again like they have done?

[LibDemAlways]

9. Congress is a bunch of millionaires looking out for themselves.

Those who voted for this travesty demonstrated that they simply don't care about the good of the country. Now, they'll use reduced revenue as an excuse to cut Social Security and Medicare. Hit the most vulnerable with the least voice and fewest advocates. This country sucks.

[Cleita]

13. They might find out differently.

Old people are a growing demographic and I for one intend to scream loudly and clearly about this.

[SidDithers]

19. That combination wasn't an option...nt

Sid

[NaturalHigh]

22. Politically, no it wasn't...

but it still would have been the best option if it could have been passed.

[Nite Owl]

23. People have no idea just how

dearly they will pay for their temporary tax cuts and it all should have been explained to them. I think that the unemployment benefits would have passed alone before Congress left, the GOP too has unemployed and they would have had an earful when they returned home. It wasn't even a good deal that he got! Two years for tax cuts and only 13 months for unemployment insurance? And that estate tax provision was the clincher. Bad negotiating.

[TBF]

34. Bad negotiating? What negotiating?

He didn't negotiate anything. He did what the republicans wanted - there is very little about that bill that is good for working americans.

[Cleita]

37. I think so too.

They are mostly corrupt millionaires looking to feather their own nests with what's left of our tax money. The few honest ones, the real patriots, who want to do what is best for America and the American people, are outnumbered. We are no better than a corrupt banana republic these days. My only hope is that the states will rise to the occasion to do what is right for their citizens.

[femrap]

36. I agree with you....

but most of the Americans who pray to the Almighty Dollar care nothing for their neighbors. They just want more for themselves...they are always the victims.

The bill for the Greed will come due soon. And it will not be pretty.

I plan to :hide:

[Lasher]

96. I wanted them all to expire too.

Bill Clinton weathered that storm OK and he actually raised taxes. All Obama had to do was nothing, then the Bush tax cuts would have expired. But he extended them all and he did it because he wanted to. After all, he is a neoliberal, in the Reagan tradition.

Yes, the bill is coming soon. Some people have been saying these tax cuts won't lead to social program cuts. It won't be long before these same folks have to change their tune - or continue treating their cognitive dissonance with heavy doses of 'up is down' and 'day is night'.

[femrap]

99. I watch 'The Ed Show'

and he had various polls that showed +60-70% FOR this Tax Cut Bill. I don't know if I should believe these polls or if the American consumer/citizen believes he/she will never need Social Security or they think they'll be rich some day or they're just plain greedy and stupid. Is the USA now Dumfukistan?

And the fact that this Tax Bill increases the taxes on those making less than $20K/year is just cruel. I read somewhere that people making less than $40K/year really don't get that much of a tax cut.

I'm sure all the Accountants will soon analyze the Bill and let us know how it screws the typical American. I'm just amazed at how delighted most Americans are to get screwed.

Yep, War is Peace.

Given the budget deficits of certain states, people will be dying in the streets. Ohio, definitely Dumfukistan, just elected a cruel-hearted governor. I really don't want to see the hateful things he'll do to the least of us.

How is WVa doing?

[Lasher]

100. Polls show most Americans want magic ice cream that makes them rich and beautiful.

These polls ask if people want a tax cut. Well of course they do if that's all there is to it. And in some people's minds, it is. Others, such as those who are paying no federal income taxes and getting a refund anyway, know better but don't care as long as they personally get some money.

Pollsters don't ask us to choose if we'd rather let the tax cuts expire or cut off Grandma's Social Security & Medicare. You won't see the issue set forth in a pay/go, side-by-side sort of way like it is here in the 2006 National Budget Simulation Game. And at least one poll, Gallup, stopped giving respondents a choice in including tax cuts for households making more than $250K.

The stage is now set for March or April, when it's time to again increase the national debt ceiling. That's when we'll have to choose between cuts to our social programs, and cuts to our social programs. The timing of the Bush tax cut extension takes them out of consideration for fiscal restraint. Our lavish military spending will be off the table too, perhaps helped along by some event if it needs to be made even more sacred than it is now.

You see, it was by no accident that the Bush tax cuts were extended at this point. Our corrupt government has ensured that these tax cuts will never be included in meaningful side-by-side fiscal scrutiny when we finally get around to deciding what we'd rather give up.

So far the WV state government is weathering this storm better than most states, mainly because of coal. We finally woke up a decade or so ago and started imposing severance taxes on coal. But when I say we're still OK, this is relative to better times like the Clinton years. The Colony State will never be affluent, so we'll be hit hard when the neoliberal Republicans and Democrats finally drown us all in a bathtub.

[Beetwasher]

39. I Think We Would All Be Better Off If I Had A Time Machine And I Could Go Back And Kill Hitler

And then get me some of the really good old school wienerschnitzel that you just can't get anywhere anymore.

[Cleita]

41. Speaking of that, the reason Hitler came to power

in a liberal democracy was because their government couldn't solve the problems of debt and unemployment of the Weimar Republic. Hitler filled them with promises and hope, but also instilled fear and hatred of a scapegoat in their midst to gain compliance and acceptance of his brutal policies and invasions of other countries. Does it seem familiar to you? It should.

[Beetwasher]

44. Yes! You've Convinced Me! Obama Is Hitler!!!

Now where have I heard THAT before? Hmmm...

[Cleita]

54. Really?

Did I say that? I thought I was talking about the Republican Party and Bush in particular. I guess I should have spelled things out more clearly in big block letters.

[Beetwasher]

59. You've Still Convinced Me! Obama Is Hitler!!!

Even if that wasn't your intent!

[Cleita]

62. That isn't even funny. n/t

[Beetwasher]

63. Am I Joking?

:shrug:

[Cleita]

71. I hope you are because putting words in my

mouth could be considered against DU rules. I was being friendly and using your post to throw some history on what you said. Killing Hitler wouldn't have worked because another wacko would have come along to fill the hole left by the inadequacies of that government to deal with it's internal problems. If anything I was implying that Obama could be the same as the Weimar Republic that took over after the monarchy failed in Germany due to WWI. Obama (Weimar Republic) took over a mess after Bush (Kaiser or monarchy) left Germany. Hitler has yet to come but she could come in high heels and a beehive hairdo if our Democrats, not just Obama, don't start some real fixes to our problems. But why do I bother to point out history to anyone and why we shouldn't repeat it.

I would love to continue with you but this seventy year old woman has to get ready for work. Yes, I lost a lot of my retirement due to the crooks on Wall Street enabled by our last two administration and now the Democrats are allowing the Republicans to start shooting holes in my Social Security. Hence I work and no doubt some younger person could really use my job, but there you have it.

[Beetwasher]

74. I Put Words In Your Mouth? Well For Goodness Sake Woman, Spit Them Out!

Everyone knows my words are poison to the soul.

[Cleita]

76. I used to like you. When did you turn into this?

[Beetwasher]

77. Oh, Come On, I've Always Been An Asshole! Everyone Knows That!

Don't take it personally! :loveya:

Honestly, if you were talking about Sarah Palin, I don't think we have much to worry about in that department, the ONLY way she could get elected is if there's a third party candidate who takes votes from Obama and that is very, very unlikely.

[Cleita]

81. Read your history.

The Nazi Party was considered a joke. Hitler was considered a joke. Look what happened.

[Beetwasher]

82. I've Read My History And The Comparisons Are Ridiculously Alarmist

n/t

[bushisanidiot]

85. Yep! Alarmist and Defeatist

but hey! the enemy of my enemy is my friend. so the left and the right sleep in the same bed and together, they demonize our President for everything.fucking.thing.he.does.

[MilesColtrane]

73. Here.

You dropped your poster.




The Mods must keep you around for laughs.

[Cleita]

75. How rude of you.

The next Hitler is Sarah Palin and if you guys don't see that and instead want to make accusatory statements with no foundation in what I actually said because I'm trying to give you a little history I think you are the ones who actually believe it.

[MilesColtrane]

93. Then why didn't you say that?

"Does it seem familiar...?" implies that you're posting about someone in the U.S. who has already ascended to power.

Palin has no power.

[NaturalHigh]

48. Nice sarcasm, but I do realize this wasn't a politically feasible option.

I was merely stating my opinion. That's still allowed, right?

[Beetwasher]

49. Of Course! Did I Say It Wasn't? Opine Away My Friend! What Are Your Thoughts On 1940's

Wienershnitzel?

[NaturalHigh]

57. I've never tried Wienershnitzel.

I really don't even know what it is. I'm more of a steak and taco guy.

[stray cat]

40. THAT wasn't going to pass either - but you can wish on falling stars

[NaturalHigh]

43. I know it wasn't going to pass.

Yes, it was just a wish.

[wryter2000]

42. That wasn't an option n/t

n/t

[niceypoo]

47. Yes it was

And letting them all expire would put us back in a balanced budget by 2014

[harun]

56. It was the best option.

Let them expire, balance budget and fund the wars.

People would learn that electing a bunch of irresponsible, drunk on greed Republican's who've never met a war they didn't like has consequences.

[bushisanidiot]

51. Have you been paying attention? the repukes voted again and again against extending

unemployment benefits. and letting taxes go up was exactly the hand the repukes wanted President Obama to play into. That would have been their tea bagging wet dream for a campaign slogan "President Obama and the 'Democrat Congress' raised your taxes in a recession".

the option you're describing was never a possibility.

[NaturalHigh]

61. I might have mentioned somewhere that I know it wasn't a political possibility.

I'm just saying that I think we would have been better off.

[MilesColtrane]

55. Of course.

But, there's that nasty reality of Republicans in government.

[treestar]

68. Of course it would be, but it would not be possible

So many posts as if people do not understand how a bill becomes a law. It's embarrassing and gives right wingers ammunition to call us a bunch of lazy entitled babies. We have to stop this.

[NaturalHigh]

70. Treestar, I've already said that I know it wasn't a political possibility.

I'm merely saying that we would have been better off if it were.

[Rex]

89. Yes, I agree 100%

[Egnever]

95. Comparing Clintons economy to this one is disingenous

They are not nearly the same. In the scheme of things the tax breaks for the rich in this particular package is small potatoes when compared to our overall debt picture.

Clintons economy was based on bubles of its own and he didnt come into office at the begining of a full blown depression.

The media is very fond of running with the "defits are out of control meme" But when put in a historical perspective our deficits as compared to our GDP have been worse in the past and we have been able to right the ship and get back on track.

I am not trying to imply that our deficits are great or that I like wasting money on a tax break for the rich that dont need it. However the chicken little stuff that the end is near because of these tax cuts is a little over the top for me. If our government chose to it could just print the money to pay the defecits. It would cause inflation to be sure but it could be done. The point is there are plenty of ways to address the defecit and right now getting our economy back to stability is much more important than defecit numbers.