This tax bill is irrational from all rational points of view

[nadinbrzezinski]

not just because it gives money to the very rich... nah that is not the reason. It increases the deficit in ways that are just insane. So why is it that perfectly rational people are doing this? I mean apart of the fact that the system is quite rigged. There is this about irrationality in empires in decline. When you examine this bill from that point of view it makes sense. The US has entered the irrational phase of Empire. It is the last phase. It is not different from France trying to hold on to Vietnam in the 1950s, or Russia trying to hold on to Eastern Europe while fighting a war in Central Asia.

This is part of the process, and the same event that two years ago did not make any sense, now you have a POTUS telling you it does. It matters little what the evidence of trickle down working or not working tells you. This is the irrational phase. They are also always, very near the historic end of Empires. This is one more trend to add to this. And yes, as sleep let the anger pass, it made sense. We are now fully in that phase. As I have said repeatedly, the trends have massively accelerated. I also realize that some USA Americans will hold on to the illusion that it will not fall in their life time even after it is so obvious retrenchment starts... or even after it is officially dead. I cannot help that. This is also part of the process. There are some older Brittons still holding to the view of Hail Britannia... never mind that Empire has been dead for close to three generations now.

I guess it is human nature...

Alas that is one more of the trends.

The other of course is military adventurism... and I guess Central Asia will get another notch in the killing of empires spear. I wonder who will be foolish enough to try again next... I mean we have been at this since Alexander, and that part of Central Asia has never quite fallen to foreign conquerors. And in this light Karzai's statement also makes sense. We are seeing already the realignment of powers, and he knows that he will probably lose his head unless he manages to convince the locals that yes, he is one of them.

[Aramchek]

1. the Deficit! the Deficit! the Deficit!!! forget the Unemployed and the Middle Class

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Do you understand what I posted?

And why it is irrational and why the extension should have never ever been attached to this?

No you don't.

You will be screaming Hail USA well after the empire is dead and buried too.

[Aramchek]

5. this bill was the only way to get Unemployment Insurance extended.

I guess you wouldn't mind if all the tax cuts expired.

But the rest of the Middle Class disagrees with you.

"You will be screaming Hail USA well after the empire is dead and buried too. "

One day you'll look back and wonder how you could have been so ignorant.
But maybe not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. No it wasn't

and you will look back and wonder what the hell happened?

You believe the US will escape history? We are that fucking exceptional aren't we?

:sarcasm:

Here is a hint, get a history book, Rise and fall of Great Powers by Kennedy would be a good one, or if you want a real classic Gibon's Rise and Fall of Rome, and chiefly READ THEM.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Ikonoklast]

37. Appeals To Authority as a basis for debate only work when one is actually an authority on the

subject being debated.

Holding yourself out as an authority without backing up that claim, other than your own say-so is not supporting your argument in any way.


On the web, we're all Rocket Surgeons.


But, I see that you are quick to ignore anyone that questions your credentials.

[JVS]

39. So, let's get this straight.

Telling someone "You're not a real Historian" isn't an appeal to authority, but responding "Yes, I happen to do that for a living" is?

:crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I must say the history of labor I am working on

is a hoot... but some people round these parts really would hate to read it.

For that matter they'd hate to read Kennedy's Rise and Fall of Great Powers. I remember readying that in Grad School. Let's just say it had an influence in my thinking... especially after you looked at the USSR and how it fell from grace as it were.

Americans hate any person who has any education. This is a general statement and part of the general culture too. It is in our national DNA.

Crisis (and we are entering one) tend to have a changing effect. Nobody can predict whether they will be good or bad.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. The OP was attacked directly as 'not an authority'.

and therefore her arguments should be dismissed, which is the opposite fallacy of 'appeal to authority'. If there is a problem with the OP's thesis it should be stated, rather than attacking her authority to state her opinions. However, having been so attacked, it is not unreasonable for the OP to provide her personal background. If you have information that indicates she is misstating who she is, please do present it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. And I will provide right now a link to my thesis

http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/ow/34157238

Yes I am one...

I hate to do this but there are days I wonder about people in the online world.

And not you by the way... but the person engaged in such stupid attacks.

[stopbush]

11. Exactly. And what's with the "deficit = doomsday" shit?

Isn't that a RW mantra from, oh, two months ago?

The fact is that the government has to spend money right now to keep the economy propped up. The tax cuts to the rich are 1. temporary, and 2. about 1/6th of the tax package.

Screaming about the deficit being THE issue is so fucking Republican! Adding a trillion dollars to the deficit when GDP is $15-trillion = 6% of GDP. That's not that far out of line with normal, much as I hate to say it (I realize that the deficit is about 10% of GDP for 2010, but most of that is a hangover from bush, not from Obama).

I can't believe how many on DU have bought the RW meme on the deficit hook, line and sinker.

[Aramchek]

18. they'll use any ammunition they can get. doesn't matter if it came from the enemy.

[abelenkpe]

29. No it was not nt.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

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[Kalun D]

63. Wrong

""this bill was the only way to get Unemployment Insurance extended.""

No it was not, the repugs have extended before and they will again.

""I guess you wouldn't mind if all the tax cuts expired.""

that's not the problem with this bill, the problem is the first successful attack on Social Security since it's inception, a de-funding in the disguise of a "tax-break" the repugs have been trying for this since SS inception and now we get it from the biggest traitor to the working class since the bush boy.

Karl Rove of all people was advocating for the passage of this bill, what does that tell you? When the repugs hadn't even taken power back in the house Karl Rove was for it.

I will NEVER vote for Obama again, I don't care if Palin is the opposition, people just won't wake up when an actor like Obama is grifting them on the corporate boob tube.

People need to wake up before this country is ruined by the bankers.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. Trickle Down.

I dare anyone to support this bullshit.

Oooh! Burn!

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. It did not work for Grant, Hoover or Reagan, or Bush jr.

it ain't gonna work now.

But this is irrationality at it's best.

[Aramchek]

6. what is so trickledown about Middle Class tax cuts and Unemployment Insurance???

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. Let me think: Estate Horseshit and "Sorry You Slipped Through The Cracks."

If you're not a "Get-Getter," I apologize.

[Aramchek]

10. how does either of those negate UI and Middle Class Tax Cuts???

Face it.

You hate the Rich so much that you are willing to sacrifice the rest of us just to stick it to them.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. Wow!

So you're not a "Get-getter?"

[Aramchek]

16. what does that even mean??

we're not all up on the latest OldElm-approved insults.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. I quote:

(w)What is so trickledown about Middle Class tax cuts and Unemployment Insurance???

Are you going to mention the other parts?

[Aramchek]

22. you mentioned them. I just stated that tax cuts for the rich don't negate the positive aspects.

You have no response to that, apparently.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. I've got a great response:

Yes, they do.

[Aramchek]

48. do you care to explain?

so the Deficit might increase, but Middle Class families and the Unemployed will have more money to put food on the table next year than if we do nothing.

[Statistical]

15. Exactly. What part of compromise is so hard for people to grasp?

Nobody in Whitehouse is claiming tax cuts for the rich are needed to stimulate the economy.

They believe (as do I) dropping UI and having huge tax increase for middle class and poor would anhilate any recovery.

The "price" for what they felt was needed was tax cuts for the rich.

The senate tried the "go it alone route".
They tried to extend UI by itself - failed.
They tried extending only tax cuts <$250K - failed
They tried extending only tax cuts <$1 mil = failed.

Obviously "something" was needed to get more votes.

What part of compromise is so hard for people to grasp?

[Aramchek]

23. I don't know if the problem is comprehension or hardheadedness.

Probably a little bit of both.

[taught_me_patience]

13. This is a great post and echoes my sentiments exactly

We are an empire and in decline and in severe denial about it.

[stopbush]

20. If we are indeed "an empire in decline," then adding

$140-billion to the deficit through a two-year tax cut for the rich accounts for diddly squat of that decline.

The USA will neither be brought down by an additional $140-billion in deficit spending, neither will it be saved by not adding another $140-billion to the existing deficit.

That can't be denied.

[taught_me_patience]

24. It does becuase it reinforces policies that are destroying this country

1) You can never raise taxes
2) Deficits don't matter
3) No spending cuts necessary

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. you get it, good.

Some folks really can't comprehend what is happening around them.... this is irrational and even 20 years ago this would not have happened.

[stopbush]

44. Reagan's policies were destroying the country as well, running deficits like crazy.

Flash forward to the 90s and 7 years into Bill Clinton's presidency and we were running surpluses.

Things CAN change.

Do you know what % of GDP the deficit was at the end of WWII? Look it up.

BTW - I agree that the Reagan philosophy is still largely in place in the nation's mindset, and that the country continues to be ruined by it, but economic systems and policies can work around philosophies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. The denial part is also part of it

[stopbush]

47. Another part of it is not being able to tell victory from defeat.

I think you need to work on that one. :)

[damntexdem]

25. It's irrational even from irrational points of view.

Those who will benefit the most may find it rational to have supported it; but it's irrational even for their long-term interests.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. ;Exactly, like the adventure in Vietnam was for France

back in the 1950s... short term might have made them feel good, but the end result...

Or for that matter the elite in the USSR that tried to hold to all even when it was obvious they could not, and their economy was a basket case.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

28. I might -- MIGHT -- have supported --

such a debt increase if it had been for a direct jobs program, but for this bill? Not a chance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Alas a WPA would have produced the jobs

that would have led to the taxes that would have led to long term reducing the deficit. This does not. Why this is so insane.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

34. Batshit insane.

Just spoke with Mom (who does my taxes) and she confirmed that I will be getting less money from the government because of this deal.

Bill fucking Gates gets more. I get less.

Welcome to the New America!

Thank you President Obama, thank you soooo much! :applause: :puke: :cry:

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Why I said only when you look at this as part of the end

phase does it make any sense.

And for the record Bill Gates begged them NOT to do this. So did a few other billionaires.

[obxhead]

30. I find it amazing that Republicans ran for 2 years on the enormity

of the deficit and the first thing they do, before they even get sworn into power, is raise the deficit by a trillion dollars.

Then they get the Democrats to blame. It's one amazing trick!

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. This will not end well

on the bright side, once the empire officially collapses I don't think EITHER party will survive, as both will be blamed.

[obxhead]

33. Both will be equally responsible.

Maybe the race to the bottom is the only thing that can possibly fix it.

There comes a time in every vehicles life where it makes more sense to replace it than continue trying to repair it. It's possible this bus needs to be replaced.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Oh I am not ready to predict what will happen

once it is official. I know it wasn't pretty in the USSR for about 18 months. The Biris handled it better.

[JVS]

41. Don't worry. They can legitimately claim this was a Democratic Party approved deficit explosion

They know how they need to operate.

[obxhead]

43. Yes they can claim it.

Democrats are still in power. This tax extension is clearly a Democratic value now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. WOW I think I hit a nerve

GOOD!!!!!!

[Statistical]

49. DEFICIT. DEFICIT. DEFICIT. Any economist will tell you in a recession the MOST important thing ...

in a recession is to cut the deficit.

Slash everything you need, wipe out unemployment, let the poor starve, destroy aggregate demand through crippling tax increases. The only thing that matters is reducing the deficit. Peroid. Because the single best thing you can do to save the economy is cut the deficit to $0.00. If at all possible cut spending AND raise taxes to produce a surplus then use that to pay down the national debt (previous year's deficits).

















Actually no they won't. You won't find a single economist that says that. Worrying about deficit spending in a recession is the height of stupidity, like worrying about price of water while your house burns. Worrying about deficit in a recession is a Republican false meme. Strange it is getting so much play on DU. Hell there was less talk about deficit when we weren't in a recession (the time to minimize deficits) then now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Actually what they will tell you, and you are being quite disengenous

is that you need STIMULATIVE spending, which this is NOT.

Tricke down economics is a figment that does not work, and it is part of supply siders religion.

Are you a follower of THAT RELIGION?

This is the WRONG KIND OF DEFICIT SPENDING... and if you cannot get it, I can't help you. Suffice it to say it is insane... and will just continue to HOLLOW OUT the economy.

[Statistical]

51. Tax cuts to the poor & middle class are stimulative.

So is UI insurance, so is payroll tax holiday.

Once again the whitehouse (nor anyone on DU) is making the claim tax cuts for the rich are stimualtive.

They are the cost. The pricetag to get the portions necessary passed. If we had more more votes that pricetag wouldn't be necessary but that is the reality we live in.

Stimulative:
Tax cuts for middle class
UI extensions
payroll tax holiday

Pricetag (hell call it a bribe) to ensure passage
Tax cuts for rich
Estate tax cut

"is that you need STIMULATIVE spending, which this is NOT."
Many economists even liberal ones would disagree with you. You give someone a UI check it is stimulative. You think he/she is going to save it for a rainy day, think they are going to invest it? Hardly they will spend all of it and that will increase aggregate demand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. SHHH continuing the SAME TAX vacation

as was for ten years already ate the effect.

The dipping into social security will have some effect, but not enough.

Again, are you a follower of trickle down?

It will have a minimal effect.

[Statistical]

54. At least educate yourself.

Calling a direct tax cut to middle class "trickle down" makes you look pathetically stupid.

No I don't believe or support trickle down. Neither does Obama. Tax cuts for the rich are the pricetag.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. You mean the SAME tax cut we have had in effect for ten years?

Again that DOES NOT have a stimulative effect AT THIS TIME.

The Extension of Unemployment has some... so does the 2% into the FICA tax, the price we will pay is amazing.

And all the spin will not change this.

[Egnever]

58. False

As removing that tax cut would have detrimental effects. Continuing it is stimulative because those detrimental effects are avoided.

And if you think taking that money out of peoples paychecks right now is a good idea then you are at odds with the majority of economists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. I guess so is Krugman

Oh wait, Paul is a nobody too.

In the end this is a zero sum game with SOME stim effect, but NOT ENOUGH. And the some comes from mostly the one year dip into FICA.

[Egnever]

61. not enough not enough not enough

thats all you can say over and over to everything, excuse me while I dismiss your whining as what it is.

[soryang]

59. I agree with some of your points but...

For example, tax cuts for working class or middle class people are stimulative but they are a stopgap measure only with a statistical effect on GDP. They have no impact in addressing the structural problems in the distribution and application of capital accumulations of wealth which are grossly out of balance.

The cost to acheive a very limited effect from the middle class tax cut is not going to offset the continuing collossal damage the bush marginal rates on the rich are doing to the economy. They don't invest their money in tangible capital because they are not taxed at a high enough marginal rate. The business investment tax credits and deductions available to the rich and corporations are not used becuase without higher marginal income tax rates and higher taxes on financial investment transactions there is no incentive to use those incentives to offset marginal rates of taxaation which are currently too low. So they just go on hoarding and speculating and the financial sector will continue growing at the expense of manufacturing and real capital.

To trade a huge tax reduction extension for a bill which only offers more of the same in terms of economic problems leaving the structural economic factors unaddressed is wrongheaded and politically weak.

Kevin Phillips says that the elites of prior empires have consistently proven incapable of reform because they were unwilling to give up their privileges. We are no exception.

[Ozymanithrax]

53. First, politics isn't a rational process.

There is no logic in it. We like to think that, we like to think our personal ideological
point of view is rational and well thought out, and if everybody just did it exactly like we want the world would be rational and beautiful. But that is not human and it is not factual.

Politics, as a uniquely human endeavor is the antithesis of rational. This political negotiation, like any other, begin from many differing points of view, positions of power, conscious fears, unconscious fears, ideological beliefs, arrogant ambitions, hopes, and dreams. It is not rational to believe that governments are inherently evil and 1 trillion or so extracted from the people is somehow equal to 2 trillion or more given back. It is not rational to believe that the man or woman who was a progressive hero yesterday, who voted to pass a bill, has suddenly sold out to forces of the enemy. Alas Kucinich and Franken, we knew them Horatio. But they have joined those Claudius clone corpronazi's and are now dead to us. In this age, disagree with any me and you have gone to the dark side.

Add in the weird end of an age vibe that is a lot like a man running after having his feet knocked out from under him to try in vain to stop from falling on his face, this kind of psychic flagellation mutilation excoriation of the body politic is inevitable. Especially now, when the nation is dead and the remains are like the legs of frog dropped into a metal pan that quiver and kick.

Politics isn't rational.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. And in Empires in decline

it is even less rational.

Which is my point.

[moondust]

62. Bush cut taxes way back when there was a surplus. n/t