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Our History of Meddling in Middle East Nations

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:14 PM
Original message
Our History of Meddling in Middle East Nations
If you take even a casual look back at the U.S. government's history in the Middle East, it's not a pretty picture, generally. The bottom line is that we have consistently supported "stability" at whatever cost. As long as the countries kept the oil flowing and didn't attack Israel to seriously, we have generally been content with whatever government the various nations there had. Dictatorships, monarchies, whatever. Stability has been our goal, not some higher goal.

When we've tried to step in to alter things, our success rate has been pretty dismal. We don't do well in trying to manipulate government in Islamic countries. Generally, we hurt, rather than help ourselves when we try such manipulation.

So, today, the popular unrest has shifted to Egypt, where we've long supported a stable, if unpleasant regime in that country. There's an uprising there right now, with advocates of a more democratic government and advocates of an Islamic state both rising up against the current, U.S.-backed government.

Will we meddle in this, too? There's a good chance we will officially, and we'll probably attempt to shore up Mubarak and try to maintain the stability of Egypt. Remember the Shah of Iran? It didn't work in Iran, and now we have a distinctly hostile government there. Whenever we mess around with Middle Eastern governments, it seems to backfire and end up with a result we don't much like.

In Iraq and Afghanistan, we're not just messing around. We have troops there, and both countries have ineffective and corrupt pseudo-democratic governments in place that we're attempting to shore up. We're leaving Iraq now, slowly, and it won't be all that long before we start withdrawing from Afghanistan. Not soon enough, but not that long, in historical terms. What will happen? Well, our meddling probably won't result in anything we'll enjoy, and traditional power struggles will resume. Many of these nations aren't unified by much more than some artificial borders, anyhow, so turmoil is always in place with one tribal faction or another religious sect fighting with the others for control.

In Egypt, something's happening. Perhaps we should not interfere as we have done so unsuccessfully so many times in the past. Perhaps we should let the people of Egypt work it out for themselves and let their government reach its own level. We don't seem able to figure out what's going to work the best in the Middle East. It's not surprising, either. Here we are in the U. S., with a government formed by a motley bunch of Calvinists and Deists, secularized for the most part, and relatively stable. What do we know about Islam? Very little, but that's the dominant religious and cultural reality in most of the Middle East. We're not likely to be able to even identify what will produce the best government there, so we're very likely to screw things up even more in the attempt.

Let the people of Egypt find their own level. Let them find whatever combination of factors that produces the most stable government of which they're capable. Right now, it's unclear what the outcome might be. I'm sure it's unclear to the Egyptians, as well. They're trying to come to some semblance of a government they can live with. Our help is not required, nor is it even desired by the people of Egypt. They want to work it out for themselves.

Will the process be ugly? Most likely. Will it be violent? Probably. Most political upheaval and revolution is. Can we stop it? Probably not. Is it our business in the first place? I don't think so, especially given our history with such things. We don't live there. We don't understand the social, religious, and cultural issues there. I believe we need to back off, try to encourage some peaceful solution if we can, and leave it to the Egyptians to figure out how to govern their society.

If you disagree with this, I encourage you to see my signature line.
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Heartless bastard!
You really don't care about oil company profits, do you?

:sarcasm:
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Not very much, no. And you've identified the main problem.
Oil is the reason for our unreasoned approach to politics in that region. To our shame.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. I do not disagree.
nt
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. "If you disagree with this, I encourage you to see my signature line."
LOL! Nowhere do you ask anyone to enagage you in debate or discussion even though you are throwing this up on a DISCUSSION board. Are you at all interested in debate or should readers refrain for participating in your post?
Cheers!
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. My signature line doesn't say not to discuss the issue. It just
identifies what I write as my opinion, and nothing more. If you have a comment on the situation, I'd love to read it. If you have a comment on me, personally, well...that's your choice, too.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. +1, n/t
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Don't know you well enough to comment on you personally ...
... but I like your thinking.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's very nice of you to say.
Thanks.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you for the voice of sanity. I think we SHOULD NOT be interfering
with people in other countries who are trying to "petition the government for redress of grievances."

And you're right, we have a very sorry record of trying to impose our will on the Middle East, as does Great Britain.

We also have a sorry record of trying to impose our will on Central and South America.

Few people today know that we led the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh in Iran and installed the Shah. We then supported the Shah against all opposition until the Iranian Revolution overthrew the government. If we'd left Mossadegh alone, we (and certainly the Iranians) would probably have been much better off. Trying to control Iran for its oil didn't work and it caused lots of death and suffering.

We supported the overthrow of Allende in Chile and supported Pinochet and his regime to take over the government there. That had a pretty big series of down sides.



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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks. I was focusing primarily on the Middle East, but you're
right about our meddling in the Americas, too. When we do, it doesn't usually work out well in the long run, and often causes serious internal problems in the countries involved.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. So far, we don't have a lot of verifiable facts from Egypt.
It's a mistake to jump on bandwagons that may not actually show up. We'll know more tomorrow.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. Very. very well said. At the risk of severely upsetting many on this board, I'm quite glad that the
administration hasn't jumped all over this yet.

I came of age around the time of the Iranian revolution and was dating an Iranian at the time. Weird, scary times--we need to proceed with grave caution (if we proceed at all).
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. I suspect we're going to have to hit a tipping point ...
... in terms of the price per gallon of gas.

$4 a gallon was an eye opener.

$6 a gallon might be the tipping point.

$8 a gallon, if we're caught flat-footed, might be the tip over point.

The tipping point price, whatever it is, would be when we're slammed with higher prices to the point we HAVE to act and still CAN act. Higher prices means a further depressed economy, so it would likely be tough to sell another Blood For Oil excursion and extend our oil dependency.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. So, let me ask you - Are you looking forward to that?
I'm sure not. Where do you stand on such things?
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R nt
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-11 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. There have been a lot of rumors today about what's happening
in Egypt. Most of them have been false. Mubarak did not flee the country, for one. This points out, once again, the point I'm making in the OP. We must be watchful and not draw conclusions about situations like this one until we have some solid facts. If we are not careful, we may make decisions or form judgments that will seem foolish when the facts actually emerge.

Act quickly and repent at leisure. Things take time to become clear.
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