"Wishing" for a revolution in the US in the light of Egypt is insulting to the Egyptian protestors

[Godhumor]

Their grievances are much, much different than what the average US citizen faces. We are nowhere close to where it is necessary for the populace to risk violence, disappearance or death to make a change. This is the Egyptians' movement, not ours.

[AlabamaLibrul]

1. Because we can't want nice things too?

Is that the point?

[sufrommich]

16. Compared to poor Egyptians, you live in the lap of luxury. nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

21. fuckin' A! n/t

[melody]

48. You haven't been to the rural south lately, have you? n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

73. I have...and the small pockets of poverty there

cannot compare. When was the last time you visited a shanty-town of 30,000...built of lashed together scraps of plywood and corrugated metal with open sewers for streets and no access to clean anything? There are indeed homeless and helpless here...but it is nothing compared to the scale in some of the other places in the world. And to say that some anonymous poster on an internet-discussion-board is living in luxury compared to some is NOT a stretch...

sP

[AlabamaLibrul]

107. To clarify on what I said earlier, and I do stand by it,

we want nice things in America, yes. We should want nice things. I dare say that as human beings we deserve nice things.

Like being able to afford to go to the doctor.
Like a little money when you get old.
Like some food when you can't afford it.
Like a place to sleep at night in December.

These things are very real for many and even for those who can get it, we are seeing a political reality/future that may involve some of these nice things disappearing for all but the richest. If we get to that point, there will absolutely be people on the streets in America, in more ways than one.

[dtmfman]

111. you mean like New Orleans?...n/t

[Kalyke]

118. The last time I visited Appalachia, thank you.

Do you even know what you're talking about??

[ProdigalJunkMail]

121. yes, I DO know what I am talking about...

New Orleans? Are you shitting me? (I know this comment was not made by you but I am not going to reply to each person who believes that what goes on the USA is anything comparable to some of these third world countries). Go to India, Pakistan, Burma, any number of countries in Africa and then come back and tell me that poverty here is like poverty there...I have been to these places. I have worked with these people...there is simply no comparison between poverty here and poverty there. None...


sP

[Hannah Bell]

127. oh, but there is. the causes are the same; it's the same world system.

[NuclearDem]

No, there really isn't. Egypt is Egypt. America is America.

The standards of living between the two are entirely different. The Egyptian poor would look at our poor here and actually be envious.

Not saying poor here or there is a good thing, but false equivalencies are false equivalencies.

[Hannah Bell]

129. egyptian poverty has a different cause than american poverty? do tell.

[NuclearDem]

130. Since when was I talking about cause?

Poverty is poverty...it's just wrong to say that the American poor have it just as bad as the Egyptian poor.

This coming from someone who is unemployed and was almost homeless. I don't compare my situation to the Egyptians.

[Hannah Bell]

132. i think you better take a look at the post you responded to.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=295486&mesg_id=299585

[melody]

157. Have you been to Appalachia?

I have been there, I've seen the poverty there. There are children with no shoes, no medical care at all, riding around on trash dump bicycles and anything they can pull out of dumps. There's no money for milk. There's very little money of any kind. They are poor, hopeless, and invisible to too many people in this country. They don't riot because they were taught to request nothing from the Federal government. They are terrified of any kind of government help.

I could go on and on. If you need to be right, then by all means feel that way. The truth remains the truth.

[jberryhill]

167. But that's not the point of a comparison

I have been to Appalachia.

I have also been to Cairo, Delhi, and Sao Paulo.

Given the option to be poor in any of those places, I would prefer Appalachia. As one point noted in your post, you are not going to find a bicycle, or any other metal object, in the well picked over trash dumps of Cairo, Sao Paulo, or Delhi.

[melody]

170. Oh, well, that does make the difference

You're not going to find a bicycle in any well picked over trash dump in West Virginia either.

Look, the point of all this is some people do not want to feel compassion for Americans. Our poor people hurt just as much as anyone, even if they are Yanks.

[jberryhill]

175. Yes they do - but the scale is incomparable

Yes you will find people in the US whose conditions compare to, say, the Kibera slum near Nairobi.

What you won't find in the US are 1.3 million of them in one spot.

The question was "Have you seen Appalachia?". The relevant question is "Have you seen Appalachia and Kibera?" if you want to talk about comparisons and contrasts.

The US doesn't have that kind of thing anywhere, and certainly not in the concentration and scale that a mass uprising becomes feasible

[melody]

176. I don't think there will be a mass uprising here

I made that point elsewhere. However, to suggest there is not third world level poverty in this country is an insult to our own people who are suffering.

[jberryhill]

181. The point of the thread was about the types of conditions and numbers relevant to

...a mass uprising. Pockets if extreme poverty in thinly populated areas doesn't do it.

[melody]

217. That might have been your point of the thread

The contention was there are NO pockets of extreme poverty in the US.

The places with true poverty are hidden from you -- places where people catch ground hogs and squirrels for food. Children are skeletal from lack of calories. The lucky people can collect moss to sell. They carry water from public cisterns. It does exist. Your contention was it did not exist at all.

I swear, this whole thread reminds me of my arguments with GOP acquaintances that "American poor people can afford cable."

[melody]

173. Go check out post 156 "No comparison, eh?"

Now if you just want to win the argument, then don't look at the post. If you seriously want to have compassion for Yanks, check it out.

[Mojeoux]

199. Have you visited the 3rd world lately........EVER?????

Burning plastic, kids digging trough garbage, always boiling water.......

Oh of course we have poverty here in America. What we don't have is places where there are square miles and miles of absolute squalor.

[jberryhill]

201. Collecting shit for cooking fuel

It makes decent fuel, but when there is an economy of shit, it's pretty impressive.

Very common in India to see folks flattening out shit cakes to dry in the sun.

[melody]

216. Human excrement is used on crops

Sorry, but I can find numerous instances of equal poverty here in the US. Parts of our country suffer a third world level of poverty.

[Mojeoux]

231. No one in the US has to walk miles for water

I know there are so many poor people here. However, it's not not not the same.

[Mojeoux]

232. Here we have cracks to fall through, in the 3rd world they haven't even got cracks. nt

[Kalyke]

165. No comparison, eh?

Where is this?

http://www.uky.edu/ArtMuseum/may/May_09_10.htm#wolin

It could be here:



But it's not - the first is Appalachia - the second is Egypt. Granted, there seems to be less trash visible in the first photo, but I'm going to assume its hidden in the foliage, while the trash is clearly visible on pavement in Egypt.


Where is this?





Excepting for the greenery, it could be here:



The first one is Kentucky, the second Manila. The only difference I see is that the poor people are spread further apart in Kentucky.


I should post the house down the street from me, but I don't think Google would do that. Here's the link:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=tazewell+pike,+knoxville,+tn&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Tazewell+Pike,+Knoxville,+TN&gl=us&ei=PGpETZrNBIGs8AbUzsDGAQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ8gEwAA

A Shanty just, ironically, across the railroad tracks from a solidly Middle Class neighborhood.

I live in Tennessee.

[melody]

171. Superb post, exactly

Thanks for making it.

[Recursion]

191. Actually the trash is a big part of it

That's what I remember most clearly about Lagos: trash. Trash everywhere. Ankle-deep.

And when I say "everywhere", I mean everywhere for at least the next 3 miles in any direction, and people having built lean-tos out of plywood or corrugated metal (or in some cases just cardboard) just in the middle of the garbage.

[melody]

218. Oh, I see, it's just they have more trash

I thought others were contending there was NO trash in third world countries. Now there's too much?

[Recursion]

227. No, it's not "just that they have more trash"

And you clearly don't get what 3rd world poverty is about if you would say "just more trash". For example, saying "just more trash" or "they're just closer together" is kind of missing the point, because the concentration of people and the lack of any sort of city services like sanitation is precisely what makes 3rd world poverty so much worse than US poverty.

[Le Taz Hot]

123. So, you're saying,

if you're starving but have a roof over your head, it's better than starving and not having a roof over your head? Apparently you don't have the ability to understand that it's STILL STARVING. For goddess sakes, I hate these stupid "AAA poverty is worse than BBB poverty." You're pitting one group against the other which is exactly what the Power Elite want you to do. Open your damned eyes and understand hungry is still hungry.

Btw, I'm betting you've never actually been hungry and homeless. I suggest you take your "theory" and pose it to the woman on the streets who is living in her car whose children haven't eaten for 3 days and tell me how comforting it is that she's better off than the poverty-stricken Egyptians. Tell me how that goes for ya.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[melody]

172. Amen n/t

[superduperfarleft]

78. I'm FROM the rural south, and no, there is no comparison. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

88. Oddly, melody has gone silent... n/t

[melody]

101. Oddly, Melody was making dinner for her family

I can't afford to be 24/7 on DU.

And I disagree -- there is wrenching poverty here in the States. If you haven't seen it, you haven't lived it. Members of my family have.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

120. I am from an extremely rural and poor area of south Alabama

and no, there is no (ok, very little) poverty in the US like there is in some of these other countries. You just cannot compare it...it is not even close...

sP

[melody]

158. Look, if you need to be right, consider yourself right

The truth remains what it is.

[AngryAmish]

144. Maybe you should not make dinner for your family

Then you will know what hunger is!

[melody]

159. Oh, yeah, that's fair. You don't even know me.

I KNOW what hunger is. I won't go beyond that, but I do. I don't have to live that way anymore. Because you would wish that on ANYONE just to prove your point, tells me all I need to know about you.

[melody]

102. Tell that to my cousin's neighbor

Her 6 month old was hospitalized for four weeks because they couldn't afford his formula. They were having to give him radically watered-down milk.
Oh, and they live in a trailer that was thrown away at a wrecking yard. They use a local toilet with carried-in water. They only survive because of food banks.

Yeah, living high on the hog here.

But no, we'll never have the kind of unrest Egypt has because we're more affluent (thanks to enough years of Democratic Presidents) on average, but there are
pockets of extreme poverty in the US. To think otherwise is to live in denial.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

122. your first sentence tells the difference...

ask someone in a shanty in India what a hospital is...or a toilet...a fucking food bank...are you fucking kidding me? Your idea of poverty is indeed small. Yes, poverty in the USA is hard on those in it and it COULD be eradicated...but it is NOTHING on the scale and depth of what happens in some of these other countries...and to suggest it is indicates that you have never been there and seen it. I have worked with the impoverished in about 15 countries including the USA...you obviously have no idea.

sP

[cali]

150. You need to tell your cousin's neighbor about WIC

Seriously, there was no need for this to happen.

I live in a poor rural area, but no the pockets of extreme poverty in the U.S. don't even approach the poverty in cities like Cairo.

[melody]

177. My cousin's neighbor is a hillbilly

They do not believe in government assistance. They accept help from their church and that is it.

Have you been to Appalachia? There's a post elsewhere that clearly demonstrates we DO have pockets of extreme poverty here on a third world scale.

[JI7]

188. oh, so they are offered help and refuse it ? so that's a lot different than Egypt

[melody]

219. I can't believe this post

I won't even try anymore.

I surrender. If you must win an argument, I let you win by default.

[JI7]

222. you don't think that's a big difference ? that there is some help offered in America unlike Egypt ?

[cali]

223. yes, I've been to Appalachia. Reminds me of the Northeast Kingdom

where I live.

If what you say is true, then the tragedy is your cousin's neighbor's fault. WIC would have prevented it.

[Kalyke]

119. So am I - and the ex wife of an Arabic man.

I'm in the odd position of knowing both the rural American South and the Middle East, particularly Jordan and Egypt.

I wear both of these pendents every day - one of my son, one for me and I'm trying to find the Eye of Grace for my daughter.

[barbiegeek]

156. We have clean water, Egyptians boil water out of the Nile in buckets

Egypt burn plastic for fire.

[Hannah Bell]

195. some of us have clean water. some egyptians have clean water too.

[melody]

220. Appalachia boils water -- their rivers are poisoned by strip mining

Appalachians barely make-do with the very little they have. That's the point.

In all these discussions, I'm reminded of my arguments with Republicans I know who insist all our poor people are just fat and lazy people with basic cable. We HAVE poverty here just as deep and unrelenting as any third world country.

And that my last word on any of this.

[olegramps]

139. What has perplexed me about the Middle East is the extensive poverty.

These civilizations have existed for thousands of years, yet the majority live in abject poverty. I was astounded by the conditions when I traveled there. The living conditions are primitive and it appears that they are locked in some type of time warp in which the other societies continue to advance while they show little improvement. While these societies are very religious, they are also very corrupt. It must be absolutely frustrating for the younger people who now have access to view Western society and realize how primitive and appalling their conditions are in comparison. It would appear to me that the people, especially the younger ones, have been forced to see just how corrupt and medieval their existence is in comparison to the West and are determined to change the situation.

[AngryAmish]

145. Mankind's default position is abject poverty

For the vast majority of human existence almost all people lived that way. It is only in the last 100 years that any number of people have grown beyond subsidence farming and garbage collection.

Why? Industrial revolution. Widespread use of the scientific method. Less interpersonal violence (really). Green revolution (norman borlaug)

We live in miraculous times. We live in a country where then main health problems of the poor come from having too many calories, not dying of starvation.

So, why are people in the middle east poor? Because they do not have the civil societal things that allow widespread wealth and thus revert to the mean.

[Hannah Bell]

198. default position = untold wealth.

[Hannah Bell]

196. why do you think that is when a lot of them have a lot of oil?

[Hannah Bell]

193. but in fear as well. fear of losing one's job, home, health care -- for starters.

and for those on the bottom half, that fear is pretty unrelenting.

[Teaser]

29. How often do the secret police beat your ass?

.

[saras]

37. Who needs secret police when ordinary police can do the job?

Answer: too often.
Criteria: once is once too often.

[tigereye]

90. they don't typically watch everything you say, take your

family away, torture them and kill them. :shrug: Police violence is never good, but there is really no comparison to what we are seeing in Egypt.

[pnwmom]

44. You think war is a nice thing? This isn't a game. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

134. See?

[MineralMan]

2. It's just plain stupid, too. We're not anywhere near such a thing.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucian]

9. We're not being oppressed by our government?

The Patriot Act, the corporations taking over the government, corruption in our own government, the poor, the unemployed, the uninsured?

I think we're way overdue for a revolution.

[cali]

24. have fun. count me out if it involves violence.

[Lucian]

91. I'm an advocate for peaceful demonstrations.

[MineralMan]

95. Ah, so it's "let's you and him fight" is it?

[dtmfman]

112. gee...wonder where we'd be...

had Patrick Henry felt the same....

[Teaser]

31. How many of your relatives have been disappeared?

.

[saras]

39. Relatives, or friends?

Unfortunately, my relatives are either right-wingers, dead, or live in other countries.

If you asked how many people I knew personally have been killed by US forces, or US backed and trained forces, I'd have to ask a few permissions, but I could get you a list.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. Okay, I'll play.

How many people IN THE US do you know PERSONALLY who have been killed by US forces, or killed in the US by US backed and trained forces? In the US.

Get your permissions, then get us the list Please and Thank You.

[readmoreoften]

80. I know one person indicted by a grand jury through an FBI mole for simply organizing.

I remotely know one person in prison for being a lawyer of a terrorist. I know a few people whose computers were destroyed and their belongings confiscated by homeland security. I know one person who was followed by the FBI for organizing with Food not Bombs--a thirty-year old woman-- whose condition of release was that she be "watched by her father." I have seen video of interviews with a US protestor hooded, beaten, bruised from stress positions, forced to choke on his vomit in a black hod, and denied access to social workers for demanding food after 14 hours in detention without being fed--on Democracy Now. I have seen interviews with non-political passersby reporting blood smeared on the wall in the holding facilities at the RNC 2008 protests. I have MANY acquaintances who were thrown in Pier 51 in toxic conditions during the RNC 2004 and suffered respiratory problems. I know of one person raped with a baton in custody by police during the RNC 2008.

Should I continue, or is that enough?

[cherokeeprogressive]

89. Actually the poster used the term "killed".

I didn't see evidence of that on your list.

[Teaser]

65. yes, get that list

.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucian]

104. Oooooooooooh...elections...

where we vote for one corporate master or the other corporate master.

Gotcha.

:eyes:

[cali]

151. I vote for Bernie Sanders, Pat Leahy, Peter Welch, Peter Shumlin

Corporate masters? Not so much.

[Lucian]

3. What about our unemployed and uninsured?

Or are we going to forget about them just like the administration?

So they should sit down and remain quiet like good little poor people?

[pnwmom]

62. Nonviolent protests are one thing. Armed revolutionaries are another. n/t

[dtmfman]

114. what unemployed...what uninsured?

According to the rethugs...those lazy sobs aren't working because they're getting unemployment benefits....and the uninsured?....hell..they're waiting till they or their family members get so sick that they HAVE to go to the ER for care....and by then it's probably too late...so the population numbers AND the unemployment numbers will go down as they expire....that's the Amerikan way...didn't you know....

[Rex]

4. AMERICA DOES NOT NEED A REVOLUTION!

We need our LEADERS to stand up and represent us as they promised to do under oath. Stop the lies, take responsibility and punish the 1%...if they leave the country we can all take their share of the loot! We'd all be millionaires!

[atreides1]

15. And if they don't?

Then what?

[Rex]

20. We gripe about it on the Internets.

And wealth disparity continues unabated.

[dkf]

40. Or we can raise taxes to 90% and they will leave too...

But all rich people take their money with them.

[Rex]

55. Only the money the can prove they earned legitimately and within 24hrs.

The rest we get.

[superduperfarleft]

69. Yes, they'll flee to Europe where the tax rate is even higher.

:eyes:

Of course, you clearly think the superrich submit their W2s at the end of the year like the rest of us. Tax shelters, have you heard of them?

[mmonk]

115. That would take a revolution.

[DJ13]

5. So we should just accept our fate at the hands of the tyrannical elites?

[JuniperLea]

12. Where did you pull that from?

You don't know what hardship is. Seriously. No one who has access to a computer to the degree that they can sit and post on DU is near as bad off. Wow... the drama.

[cali]

25. the self-indulgence here is pretty funny.

[JuniperLea]

72. I'm surprised some people...

Just don't set themselves on fire outside McDonald's because their order was wrong. Maybe I'm just old enough to remember the stories of real suffering. Maybe the harsh reality of such things doesn't come across in history books.

Not being able to afford the latest tech toy or sneaker isn't a sign that one is impoverished or oppressed.

[Fumesucker]

105. Not being able to afford to have an abscessed tooth pulled..

Is a fairly decent sign of being impoverished..

That happens in the USA every day.

[Maru Kitteh]

178. Yeah, and not having the funds to have your tooth pulled is JUST LIKE living under martial law for

30+ years under the same dictator and living on $4.00 a day.

[NotThisTime]

57. +1000

[pnwmom]

45. Nonviolent means of protest is one thing. Revolution is another. n/t

[leftstreet]

6. Pondering the tolerance level of an oppressed class is not "wishing"

Good grief

[enlightenment]

7. Define 'necessary', please.

I agree that the situation in Egypt is very different from the US, but I'm interested in what you believe would would make 'wishing' for revolution in this nation 'necessary'.

Thanks.

[JuniperLea]

10. Yeah, that's just plain ignorance...

I think people have been desensitized by all the pictures they view while sitting in their comfy chairs. Anyone who would wish for such a thing needs to wake the hell up.

[readmoreoften]

19. Yes, anyone who "wishes" for justice should "wake the hell up"

So much less violent to continue this path of destroying education and sending American kids to bomb Yemen and Pakistani kids to expand US holdings.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. big difference between justice and revolution.

:shrug: but I'm sure you know that.

[readmoreoften]

54. Uh. Yeah, justice happens when a revolutionary change is successful.

Or are you a monarchist who supports the King. Sometimes you people baffle me.

[Bluerthanblue]

76. "you people".... you'd do much better to ask what someone is

thinking before you voice your assumptions.

Yes, sometimes after a violent revolution there is a measure of justice. But justice that comes without revolution is one that has a chance of really lasting. If you think that the best way to achieve justice is through revolution, i encourage you to do what your username instructs.

One of my favorite people ever to have lived understood the need for justice better than most of us ever will. He had this to say about the use of violence as a means to an end, and gave his life living out his understanding that violence is not the answer-

"....nonviolent resistance is not a method of cowardice. It does resist. It is not a method of stagnant passivity and deadening complacency. The nonviolent resister is just as opposed to the evil that he is standing against as the violent resister but he resists without violence.
.... The end of violence or the aftermath of violence is bitterness. The aftermath of nonviolence is reconciliation and the creation of a beloved community. "
The Power of Non-violence
Martin Luther King, Jr.
June 4, 1957

[Recursion]

186. Most revolutions have wound up making things worse

Ours included.

[JuniperLea]

66. I'll take this as verification...

Of my good sense to put whomever that is on ignore!

[Arkana]

97. So you want rebellion for the sake of rebellion?

[Bluerthanblue]

22. +1000

:hug:

[JuniperLea]

63. Hi!

:hug:

Perspective is everything, right? :hi:

[Drale]

11. People don't realize

o yeah revolution it sounds great but what is more likely to happen is that someone far worst then who you where trying to get rid of will take hold. The American revolution was one of the few revolutions in all of history that did not end with mass bloodshed and a crazy person taking over. At least in the last 300 years or so. The two big ones that I look at are the French and Russian revolutions, both times a crazy person whether it be Napoleon or Stalin took and and things go really bad. A violent revolution is a very dangerous thing and should not be taken lightly.

[JuniperLea]

14. Well said...

I'll add to that just a little. People don't get that when a government is shut down, everything stops. We are spoiled. How long do you think it would be before the crying started?

[pnwmom]

51. Yup. And the Tea Party people love to talk about revolution, too.

Wouldn't that be just great.

:sarcasm:

[JuniperLea]

58. Holy Mother of God!

Save us!

And you are right about it being too early to celibrate. We should be watching very carefully, and hopefully learning something... that's it.

[Drale]

67. O no if they tried to start a violent revolution

I would be leading the counter revolution because I WILL NOT LIVE UNDER THOSE FREAKS!

[JuniperLea]

74. Ha! Love this post!

I WILL NOT LIVE UNDER THOSE FREAKS!

Another reason we need to work feverishly against the entirety of the GOTP!

[Le Taz Hot]

124. But not against the corporate-loving

whores in your own party? Interesting.

[LanternWaste]

13. Then there is an objective list of grievances

Then there is an objective list of grievances which determines whether one may or may not, with right and conscious, discuss revolution without being insulting, yes?

If not... :shrug:

[jberryhill]

99. The font on the interstate highway signs sucks

The US Federal Highway Administration created its own font - FHWA (M) - sometimes called "Highway Gothic".

In Europe, almost all road signs are in Helvetica, which is more readable and also more graceful.

We should not stand for the visual clutter being foisted upon us by poor font design, and we should demand Helvetica.

[readmoreoften]

17. Oh here we go. Just like only people about to lose their fingers need unions.

Not service workers or teachers. Maybe you're not dealing with oppression or police violence in your upper class world, but you underestimate the repression of American leftists. No, I don't mean "Democrats." I mean leftists. Plenty of protestors have been beaten, tortured, and sexually assaulted in prison. Is that "as bad" as Egypt? No. But it's fucking bad enough.

[leftstreet]

18. +1

[Godhumor]

23. My oh here we go moment was watching people get excited that it might/should happen here

The countries are worlds apart in terms of what life is like for the majority of populace.

[ipaint]

33. Yes, 50% of Egyptians live under the official poverty level.

Here 14+% (ironically the same actual number of poor as in Egypt, approx. 40 million). Ignorant comfortable class americans will wait it gets to 50% and then cry in surprise when the uprising begins.

[readmoreoften]

38. No. It's not going to happen here soon. That's a world apart from "shouldn't" happen here soon.

We have every right to stand in solidarity with the Egyptian people and I'm sure they'd appreciate it more than us yawning and patting them on the head for being good little righteously suffering people (as opposed to our "selfish" and "complaining" working class that has "no experience" with immiseration.)

[Godhumor]

41. Standing in solidarity is a lot different than "Oh Boy, we should be doing this to our bankers!"

Solidarity is supporting them in their movement, which DUers have done admirably. It is a completely different animal.

[readmoreoften]

59. Of course it is. But it's fallacious to argue that somehow wanting to revolt against the banks

precludes actual working in solidarity movements. I'd love to see a revolt against banks AND I work in solidarity movements of all sorts. In fact, there are precious few people who work in solidarity movements who don't like seeing left-wing populist uprisings....

[snooper2]

26. JHC

sometimes all you can do is :eyes: when you read posts like this...

[JVS]

64. +1

[Catherina]

125. +1. Injustice is injustice plain and simple. n/t

[blindpig]

28. Capitalism here, Capitalism there...

to be sure they have gotten a lot more of the iron fist, indeed we are not squeezed so much because the squeezing is done over there, not here. Yet we face the same enemy though the faces are different.

[Recursion]

187. In what sense is Egypt "capitalist"?

Almost every industry is either explicitly nationalized or heavily state-influenced.

[fascisthunter]

30. thank you for your concern

[Starry Messenger]

32. lol.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

34. Like DUers are going to get up from their computers.

:rofl:

[spooked911]

160. we can dream, cant we?

:)

[JoePhilly]

182. Maybe the revolution will have free wireless connectivity!!!!

And free coffee.

[jonnyblitz]

197. there you go projecting again! the last protest i went to

DUers had their blackberries anyway and I didn't see YOU there.

[earthside]

35. "It's the Tunisians' movement!"

Hey, movements for justice and equality and liberty don't belong to any one group of human beings.

Let's hope that things don't have to get as bad here as they are in Egypt before we decide to kick the authoritarian, corporate militarists out of power.

Frankly, I hope this mass movement of 'people power' spreads from Tunisia and Egypt, to Syria, Saudi Arabia ... and, yes, this country if the plutocrats don't get the message that this nation belongs to all of us, not just to them and their corporations.

[superduperfarleft]

36. It's almost cliche to say, but I think many on DU would find their lifestyles aren't going to be

quite so comfortable once "revolution" erupts in the US.

You don't get to devote hours a day to messageboards and political news when you're starving because the grocery stores are empty due to blockades, and you can't visit your family across town because of checkpoints set up by rebels, and you haven't slept very well due to the constant sounds of gunfire and mortars in the neighborhood adjacent to you.

There was an article posted here a week or so ago by some military guy saying something similar, but to the teabaggers. I wish I'd bookmarked it.

[Bluerthanblue]

42. i think you might be thinking of

a repost by Will Pitt of a letter from a soldier to those calling for revolution in the US.- I'll see if i can find it.

[Bluerthanblue]

47. here's the link to

the one i think you're citing-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x155232

[superduperfarleft]

53. Thank you. n/t

[readmoreoften]

52. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We already read it.

Funny, everyone in Europe and North Africa doesn't seem to be "terrified" of trying to get into the streets to effect change. But we're supposed to be "terrified" of American soldiers who are AOK with killing American citizens. Troops being okay with killing Tea Party terrorists throwing bombs at civilians are one thing. Troops being okay with killing millions of people in the streets are another.

Of course, Americans are no where near getting out in the streets by the millions. But some of these countries don't have parties that function to squash all anti-corporate rebellion through misleading campaigns that tap into and misdirect popular energy.

[readmoreoften]

43. Oh gosh. I'm so concerned about my "lifestyle."

You mean working 65 hours a week and fearing for my future and being pretty sure I'm going to die young of some untreated illness like many of my friends have--that's better than a revolution? What you're describing isn't a revolution. It's a right-wing paramilitary style uprising or a right-wing paramilitary response to left-wing uprising. Not to mention that my tax dollars are creating that exact scenario--terror, fear, and death--for millions of people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen.

[superduperfarleft]

56. You think that's not what a revolution looks like?

How exactly do you envision a revolution in this country, where one side has already been running around the woods with guns training for almost 20 years, and has mainstreamed themselves enough to where somebody like Sarah Palin can pretty much make death threats against elected officials without consequences?

"Not to mention that my tax dollars are creating that exact scenario--terror, fear, and death--for millions of people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen."

I don't disagree. Not sure what that has to do with what I'm saying though.

[readmoreoften]

70. I don't "envision" revolutions because you can't account for all the contingency.

But generally a paramilitary presence indicates heavy reactionary forces usually funded by wealthy Western states. When there's no reaction, it's not so bad. Look at the Paris Commune. Pretty peaceful until the Royalists send in their troops. Look at the general strike of Seattle 1919--in solidarity with the Russian Revolutionaries. Working people reorganized their city and banished police (and didn't need them... )

There is no revolution on the horizon in the US. The right-wing populists hiding in the woods with guns are reactionary fascists, not "revolutionaries" and if they took over it wouldn't be a revolution, it would be fascism. They'd fire public workers--if not execute us, imprison or execute gays and immigrants, and burn union halls. That's what fascists always do. And they'd do it with financing from capital. Per usual. Do I want that? Uh. No.

Revolution happens when there are mass movements in charge--millions of people with a common purpose. It is not chaos and hysteria caused by right-wing Palinite proto-fascists. But if there were millions of Americans in the streets I wouldn't be afraid of a few thousand fascists.

[superduperfarleft]

75. Far more people would have to be in far more desperate situations than they currently are

for Americans to do what you're talking about, and peacefully (don't make me laugh). It may be a necessary evil in some people's eyes, but I'm not quite ready to support a process that will cause enormous amounts of suffering for the very people you're claiming to speak for.

And look, I'm not necessarily arguing whether or not revolution in the US is justified, I'm just trying to give a bunch of people on DU who clearly lead relatively comfortable lives (if you have a roof over your head and the time and resources to devote to posting regularly on the internet, I'd say you're better off than many of the truly poor in this country) a little perspective when calling for it.

[readmoreoften]

82. Having a roof over your head and an internet connection is a far cry from "comfort."

Sorry. Many people around the world would point to our lack of access to health care as reason enough to revolt. The constant "middle-class-izing" and rationalizing of our situation is not accurate. We are far poorer than the working people of Europe and they threaten their officials plenty. Many of the poorest Americans have houses, cars, and even playstations. And many of them live in extremely violent conditions, have no health insurance, and work 60 hours a week.

[superduperfarleft]

87. Again, you're having an argument that was clearly started with someone else, because I've said none

of the things you're supposedly responding to.

I didn't say revolution in the US was justified or not. I didn't say that there aren't desperately poor people in this country. I was simply talking to the armchair Gueveras on DU who I guaran-fucking-tee you aren't one of those desperately poor people (whom they also, coincidentally, claim to speak for when getting oh-so-righteously indignant with another poster) who truly do have nothing left to lose.

"Many of the poorest Americans have houses, cars, and even playstations. And many of them live in extremely violent conditions, have no health insurance, and work 60 hours a week."

And, again, they'd be the first to suffer if your revolution ever came to the US. So maybe it should be their call, instead of the chickenhawk revolutionaries who wax poetic about how totally cool it would be to "take it to the streets." Expressing solidarity with those people is allowing them the means of self-determination (and if they then revolt, more power to them), not outright ignoring the very real consequences they'd face so that you can look cool in a I'm-leftier-than-you pissing match on the internet.

edited to add: The Black Panthers didn't want to allow white people into their organization, but would work closely with other leftist organizations that had white members, because while they accepted the support of their allies, it was the Panther's revolution to fight. THAT is what solidarity means to me, not just cheering people to their slaughter like it's a football game, which is what the OP and my post were trying to address.

[Hannah Bell]

131. homeless people post on the internet regularly, thanks to the public libraries.

$1 an hour in my town if you don't have a library card, free if you do.

you can get a free card with residency at our homeless shelter.

but in fact, i've seen some favela homes i'd rather live in than our homeless shelter; here's why:

1) privacy
2) more freedom: don't have to keep someone else's hours, don't have to be turned out at 8 am, don't have to keep an appointment with a "counselor"
3) less stigma; living in community rather than a house for pariahs
4) less self-hate; hard to be a "failure" in the "land of opportunity"

[readmoreoften]

71. What revolutions look like depend on contingent factors.

But generally a paramilitary presence indicates heavy reactionary forces usually funded by wealthy Western states. When there's no reaction, it's not so bad. Look at the Paris Commune. Pretty peaceful until the Royalists send in their troops. Look at the general strike of Seattle 1919--in solidarity with the Russian Revolutionaries. Working people reorganized their city and banished police (and didn't need them... )

There is no revolution on the horizon in the US. The right-wing populists hiding in the woods with guns are reactionary fascists, not "revolutionaries" and if they took over it wouldn't be a revolution, it would be fascism. They'd fire public workers--if not execute us, imprison or execute gays and immigrants, and burn union halls. That's what fascists always do. And they'd do it with financing from capital. Per usual. Do I want that? Uh. No.

Revolution happens when there are mass movements in charge--millions of people with a common purpose. It is not chaos and hysteria caused by right-wing Palinite proto-fascists. But if there were millions of Americans in the streets I wouldn't be afraid of a few thousand fascists.

For the record, I don't think the US is anywhere near a revolution. Maybe in the next few decades, but we're nowhere near it and it will likely happen only after following a European lead.

[leftstreet]

49. Could you be any more insulting to impoverished people in the US?

FFS

[superduperfarleft]

60. Yeah, I could be. But I won't. Thanks for asking!

:eyes:

So what exactly do you think a revolution in the US would look like?

[superduperfarleft]

68. Oh, and those masses of poor people who you claim to speak for

would suffer the most during a revolution. You think the rich are going to stick around and suffer with the rest of the proles?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

79. OFFS...

You have GOT to be kidding!

Everything is relative; the USA has fallen on hard times, and yes, there are those who are impoverished by OUR standards. Clearly you haven't the faintest idea what it's like in the rest of the world. There are entire countries that are starving and have no shelter. You should be ashamed.

[leftstreet]

113. That's not the point

You can discuss homeless hungry people in another country without suggesting impoverished people in the US should count their blessings. It's inappropriate to even bring it up, and anyone who does so should be ashamed

[inna]

203. +1,000

could not agree with you more.


what a thread, too. quite revealing.

[Warren DeMontague]

136. There's not going to be a "revolution"

Next week, it will be a different impending apocalypse.

[yurbud]

46. if you lose your house, your job, your pension, your health insurance, your kids' class size

doubles and the police force is cut in half, shouldn't you be pissed off?

[LooseWilly]

224. If all that happens, you should just be happy you're lucky enough to be an American...

Don't worry, be happy!

[EnlightenedOne]

61. We don't NEED a civil war - YET

but there is absolutely no reason we couldn't mobilize through and with use of the Internet as a call for justice and fairness (which I posted earlier, but that was a big FAIL of a post).

The Rabbi's took out a page in the New York Times - and trust me, THINGS LIKE THAT are going to matter.

Al Sharpton has a group who is trying to get Rush Limbaugh off the FEDERAL airwaves.

There are movements - its just we don't feel like doing it or participating for whatever reason.

Remember when Obama said in one of his speech's - I'm the only thing standing before you (meaning the R's) and the pitch forks"?

TRUST ME - The PTB know there is a revolution afoot - you can only stomp on the people and screw them for so long before they fight back - and I think they know their time is coming so they are going to push the envelope as far as it can go to see what will be the final straw. Just like a child will do to their parents - they want to know - WHERE'S THE LINE I CAN'T CROSS.

Is it going to be cutting Social Security?
Is it going to be privatizing Social Security?
Is it going to be cutting Medicaid?
Is it going to be food shortages?

They're wondering where the line is - and we're all just watching and waiting for Obama to change everything for us without lifting a finger. Its not going to work that way. It would behoove us to call out for justice in peaceful ways now - embarrass them, put public pressure on, etc. If we don't do it now, it may be that we will wind up having no other choice but to be out in the streets eventually ourselves.

[treestar]

77. agreed. they live in a dictatorship

we do not.

[apocalypsehow]

83. To paraphrase Burt Lancaster in "From Here to Eternity," 99% of our erstwhile "revolutionists" here

on DU would puke their guts out at the sight of any actual violence or bloodshed in the streets of America.

It's a lot of anonymous internet bravado, these posts braying for a "revolution" in the United States: they excite nothing but well-deserved contempt from the vast majority of reasonable posters here.

[yurbud]

202. by vast majority do you mean the handful of DLCers who back capitulation to the wealthy

because its ''reasonable''?

[apocalypsehow]

221. LOL - laughable stuff. n/t.

[white_wolf]

84. Can I wish for a peaceful one?

I don't think we are near to the point of needing a violent revolution, but I would love to see a massive peaceful revolution where the current ruling class are kicked out of power and we elect leaders who actually represent the people.

[Uzybone]

86. KnR

[TNLib]

93. I don't think our fore fathers were exactly living in slums

nt

[earth mom]

96. Bullshit. The powers that be here in the U.S. won't rest until we all live in extreme poverty

and are at their mercy for jobs, food and shelter.

Those bastards are trying to steal everything that isn't nailed down including our Social Security!

Should we all just wait to be totally screwed over and are living in boxes under the overpass while eating cat food BEFORE we DO something to stop them?

[apocalypsehow]

106. "...BEFORE we DO something to stop them?" - Spell it out; what specifically would you have us do?

And typing on the internet doesn't count. I would like to hear from you concrete steps that should be taken in the real world to "stop them".

:shrug:

[Godhumor]

116. Are you prepared to do what might be necessary to "stop them"? Would you be willing to do it

Even when the vast majority of the country is OK with how things are?

[Bonobo]

98. Ummm, I'm looking for the thread where smug jerks gloat and tease idealistic youth...

Am I in the right place?

[jberryhill]

100. No, you are still looking for "California Missile Confirmed" - two doors down the hall /nt

[Godhumor]

109. Smug jerks? I find it appalling that the "idealistic youth" would co-op the pain and suffering

Of those actually having to live in the reality. It is an insult to what they have been pushed to do to sigh wistfully wishing someone would take on the US "plutocrats".

[dtmfman]

110. uhhhh....well..now that you mention it...

There seems to be a recurring and universal theme to a lot of "revolutions"....governments that continue to distance themselves from, and are unresponsive to those they govern. Elitist class "warfare"...the destruction of the lives and the vanishing of nest eggs of hard working citizens because of corruption and unabashed greed... Sadly, it sounds all too familiar...

Some Americans refer to them as A rabs...towel heads....and a plethora of other disparaging names...but the sad truth...It appears they may have bigger stones....AND...they appear to be willing to do what they feel is necessary to be heard!...call me crazy...but...I don't think one has to be a tea bagger/wingnut to understand their feelings....

Granted their "plight" may not be exactly the same as ours...and yes...we do have it a thousand times better....but I fear we are not that far apart...and sadly...IMO...not that far behind....

http://landwheremyfatherdied.blogspot.com/

[Kalyke]

117. Wrong. We may not be quite as bad off, but many see us

heading off the same cliff.

I, for one, am tired of our apathetic population who continues to vote against their own best interests based on a stream of propaganda initiated by corporations. You know, FASCISM.

[BzaDem]

141. What if the population you speak of is tired of you? n/t

[jotsy]

212. And who are you to speak for a population?

I find your comment disturbing in that I perceive a threat is issued within that string of words. I have no familiarity with you or the poster this is directed at but would urge a tone that promotes the civility the administrators have repeatedly stated they aim at preserving.

[NuclearDem]

126. Disagree with some parts, agree with other parts

No, we don't have it as bad as the Egyptians, and any DUer who says so is so willfully ignorant it's not even funny.

No, we don't need to have a violent revolution. Anyone wishing for that is no better than a Tea Party terrorist, no matter their intentions.

No, popular revolution is not confined to one group of people--but the difference between us and Egypt is that we still--despite all the naysayers here--have peaceful avenues to address those problems. It's bad here, but it's not bad enough that we need to start throwing rocks and Molotovs.

[Catherina]

128. -1 We Can't Make It Here Anymore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kazWM

[Warren DeMontague]

135. Yeah, why don't you ask James McMurtry if he supports a revolution?

I don't think that's what he's talking about.

[Warren DeMontague]

133. You have to understand how important it is to talk big in the dorm lounge under the che poster.

Anyway, here we are just weeks after what was supposed to be a pause for self-reflection in our nation about over-extended, violent, hyperbolic rhetoric.


I think violent rhetoric is to be condemned, whether it's teabaggers talking about "2nd amendment solutions" or some armchair revolutionary going on about how great it would be to bring back the guillotine.

[NuclearDem]

137. I'm almost afraid to visit DU sometimes...

The amount of people here who ARE actually hoping for a revolution or wishing violence on others is just staggering...

[quaker bill]

138. and also actually pretty dumb.

people who post here likely would not be too happy with the outcome, if it were to happen in the US.

[BzaDem]

140. Why does a tiny subset of people think they get a revolution just because they can't get their way

in elections?

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

183. The same logic says you're 'sticking it to the man' by breaking windows at McDonalds or Starbucks.

No, you're sticking it to the minimum wage broom pusher who has to clean up the broken glass. :eyes:

[HughBeaumont]

142. Wow. DUers playing the RW "you don't KNOW what poverty is like" card. That's what was missing.

I'm sure our homeless, uninsured, jobless and hungry DUers will be happy to know what their fellow posters think of their plights. Squalor is still squalor, whether you're in a mud hut eating beetles or living in a car or going days without eating or $233,000 in debt with absolutely no hope of ever repaying it thanks to being uninsured and committing the crime of getting cancer.

Any ONE of us could potentially be one firing, one bad financial mishap, one accident away from losing everything we worked so hard for through no fault of our own.

Rather than getting into a goddamned dick-swinging contest as to who has it worse in life, why not stand with the people of Egypt and reflect on the fact that, with enough people who believe in a vision of a better future as they do, it can be accomplished?

Of course, it's not like I should be surprised. I have a whole Red-X Toilet of Bootstrapper idiots who think globalization, free trade and job offshoring (in other words, destroying someone's progress here so another's can be lifted) are just kick-ass awesome.

[NuclearDem]

143. wat

I'm unemployed, was almost homeless, and don't have the money to get help for my PTSD...but I'm not out throwing rocks or Molotovs...

The OP was a response to DUers who say that we should be doing what the Egyptians are doing because our two countries are in the EXACT same state...which they're not...

[HughBeaumont]

146. I'm pretty sure no one here is saying that Egypt and the US are in the same Venn diagram.

I'm not even saying that. That'd be silly. My friend was stationed there. It was a hellhole before all of this started. They have very little sanitation there, garbage strewn just anywhere and river systems polluted beyond belief. Of course, we have that going on here, but not to the degree they have.

I'm addressing the people who are commenting on individual situations or pockets of poverty as if none of us have any idea. Poverty does exist in your backyard. Working in downtown Cleveland, I see it every day. The building next to me is used as a urinal and an outdoor sleep area.

I'm not much into the "perspective" mavens who attest that "Your life could be much worse". Uh, right. It could also be a whole hell of a lot better for everyone too. Nobody thinks of that part.

[NuclearDem]

147. Fair enough, I see your point now.

Thought you were addressing the OP, but I guess you weren't. Thanks for clarifying. :)

[HughBeaumont]

148. And I hope your situation gets better.

Being unemployed is not fun. Happened to me during the FIRST Bewsh II recession for half a year. Too many friends on here and IRL have suffered through it as well. I wish you luck and better days ahead. Things have to get better.

[Disintermedia8]

149. Their grievances are identical to my grievances

and the grievances of many of my friends and peers here in the good ole USA.

We share a desire to escape from the debt slavery and oppression that is a product of an elite, worldly, transnational group of pirates.

Billions in aid to Egypt? It goes into a black hole of a family kleptocracy.

Billions in aid to Lloyd Blankfein? It goes into a black hole of a crony kleptocracy.

Jobless in Suez?

Jobless in Tampa?

Autocratic rulers who make sure that power rests in their hands regardless of the plight of the citizenry? Where could that be?

The United States of America is identical to these far off places in terms of economic ideology. If you can take it, take it. If you can keep it, keep it.

Me and Abdul and Hassan and Amin share the same desire to live peacefully and contentedly. The vast majority of the world is content with very little. But that would diminish the wealth of our lords.

This is PRECISELY our fight as well. So I humbly disagree with your post, though I am sure the sentiment was well intentioned.

[blindpig]

152. Very well said.

Class transcends national borders.

Welcome to DU.

[Disintermedia8]

162. thanks #

[BzaDem]

153. Shouldn't the people decide through elections the economic policy of the country? n/t

[Disintermedia8]

154. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

I've read two or three of your comments and I understand where you are coming from.

Cheers.

[TBF]

234. Perfect response. nt

[HughBeaumont]

161. Yes, that's done a world of good for us these past three decades, really . . .

[BzaDem]

189. So your prefered solution is to NOT have a democracy? Because it hasn't "done a world of good?"

[HughBeaumont]

208. My preference is for people to wake up and see that we DON'T have one.

Vote for Republicans - Corporations and the wealthy and Jesus rules you. Love it or leave it, Tommy.
Vote for Democrats - "Corporations and the wealthy will start sharing the burdens and the Republican-started wars will end" .. .. aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, yeah, guess not; they still end up ruling you anyway, sometimes even worse than before. And the wars still continue somewhere . . .

Go to college and get an education . . . and stand on the sidelines or in the unemployment office with the rest of your college educated friends. Or work and not get raises while the cost of living goes up every year. Or have your career choice become obsolete within a few year's time. Or have it succumb to cheap overseas labor.

Republicans - "Trickle Down. Laissez-Faire. Uncle Milton. Love it or Leave it, Tommy."
Democrats - "Well . . . in hindsight, maybe 'Trickle Down' wasn't so bad after all . . . it's . . . not like we really have a choice in the matter . . ."

Republicans - "Man and a Woman. Romans/Leviticus/whatevs 3:16 . . . Go to France if you want to make out with men."
Democrats - "We believe in equal rights for all . . . just . . . wait a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiitle bit longer 'til we get the backwoods contingent outta office to get that whole marriage thing in place."

Vote for Republicans - You're on your own. Love it or leave it, Tommy.
Vote for Democrats - "Hang in there" .. ..

Some menu.

[BzaDem]

214. Just because you don't like the RESULT of an election doesn't mean we don't have democracy.

In fact, in ANY democracy, there are going to be people like you who don't like election results. If everyone unanimously liked the election results, that would be a problem -- not a good thing.

You seem to be forgetting the concept of a primary election. Who decided the nominee of the Democratic party? The Democratic party voters. There was indeed a candidate running in the Democratic primary who was probably closer to your views than Obama. Now, he didn't get more than a percent of the vote or so, but that doesn't mean we don't have a democracy. It just means that some people's preferred candidates lost.

[TBF]

235. Just because they declare results to an election, doesn't mean they counted anything.

What a farce.

[ipaint]

169. Perfectly stated, thanks. nt

[Catherina]

233. Speak for me anytime. n/t

[TBF]

236. Solidarity. nt

[egressingsparrowdrop]

240. so, what would u install instead of democracy? nt

[purrFect]

163. nonsense

this is a global phenomenon stoked by the greedy elite not willing to share the wealth with the people who produced it.

this is coming to a neighborhood near all of us soon if things don't change.

bet.

[Godhumor]

207. Sure absolutely bet. How many socialists do you think are in the US?

How many more would be willing to kill or be the source of violence to affect change?

You want to know when you might see that level of frustration? When we hit nearly 50% unemployment, 40% illiteracy and watch our average income reduced by a factor of 5 or 6. And, frankly, to go from what we have now to that would mean the country had already collapsed.

[Iggo]

164. What!?!?!?!?!

:rofl:

[yurbud]

166. this reminds me of the Bush excuse for torture: Saddam did worse

so unless we live in a Third World dictatorship, we have no room to complain.

[madmom]

168. I can't believe this thread...

these poor people are worse off than those poor people is about as bad a my god is better than your god. Jeesh people get a grip. There are poor people everywhere and they ALL need our help and compassion. It doesn't matter to what degree they suffer, just that they suffer. What's that I hear ... empathy?:eyes:

[cali]

180. I'm sorry but your post is ridiculous

No one is saying that poor people here in this country or any other country don't deserve, compassion, help and respect. What some of us are saying is that the depth of poverty in some places is of an overwhelming magnitude. I can't even wrap my head around the fact that millions of people live in desperate conditions in Cairo's City of the Dead. To not understand the difference is to not understand why certain events are happening.

[madmom]

210. I do understand the difference and it's still a stupid argument.

[Imagevision]

174. Cheney & Bush started a phony war in Iraq and got away with it- things R different in the US

[TheKentuckian]

179. I see no merit in waiting for our population to face utter deprivation and loss of natural rights

before the problem is dealt with. No way, that is suicidal and passive.

It is also no small factor that the boots on the necks of some are the same as stand on our backs.

[Warren DeMontague]

184. What boots on what necks? Care to be specific?

Is this about having to show an ID at the airport?

[TheKentuckian]

226. No, its about who profits and who is powerful.

When it is boiled down it is the same motherfuckers.

[NuclearDem]

185. The secret police of Egypt are the same as the TSA, huh?

[TheKentuckian]

225. Didn't say boo about TSA

[Desertrose]

190. Actually after reading this thread...makes it clear why we will never

have a revolution in the US...arguing over who has the worst poverty.....?

I don't see how saying that we could use some big "revolutionary" changes here diminishes or insults the Egyptians in any way. Yes..it is their movement but that doesn't mean it can't inspire others worldwide to change and right the things that are so very unjust. I greatly admire thier courage & passion...and their solidarity.

FWIW..poverty is not always measured in "things" but also in the ways the people are impoverished. Hunger knows no borders or boundaries....it is a HUMAN thing. And we are all humans sharing the same planet...we need to start thinking that way. What helps and uplifts some, uplifts us ALL.

Just my 2¢.

[datasuspect]

192. thread over, please lock

you pretty much summed it up

[Desertrose]

194. Thanks...I tried.

[Godhumor]

206. Do you think an Egyptian protester is going to see the same situation if he or she were in the US?

I sure as hell don't. I think they'd look at the armchair revolutionaries in the US and wonder how the hell we could compare our situation to theirs.

They need empathy and solidarity in the sense of standing for them in their cause; our revolution, if it ever comes, will not be the same--in terms of reason or result--as theirs.

[Desertrose]

213. It's not a competition.

Its ok for people in the US to be every bit as dissatisfied as people elsewhere....oppression comes in many forms. I doubt the protesters give a fig about us (Americans) right now. I'd say their focus is elsewhere.


"They need empathy and solidarity in the sense of standing for them in their cause; our revolution, if it ever comes, will not be the same--in terms of reason or result--as theirs. "

I agree with this with the exception that all revolutions come about because the people want things to improve...to change...because a few have been oppressing the many and at some point enough is enough.



As I stated previously,I am completely with the Egyptian people...they have great courage to do what they are doing...taking their country away from the elites that are sucking it - and them - dry. I really feel they will come out much better for this struggle. I am in awe that it has been as peaceful as it has. Good for them. They totally have my support fwiw.

I don't know what your point is....seems as though you are trying to cause a problem where there is none.

[Pedalpower]

230. Yes, and here's the reason...

Standard of living.

Of course the US is wealthier than Egypt. Of course we have a higher standard of living, even among our poorest.

BUT, the correspondingly-higher amount spent on supporting the poor here in the US still leaves them at a huge disadvantage to the rest of the US population. It doesn't matter that we have more than Egypt does; what matters is the disparity of wealth among the population. In other words, it's all relative.

As liberals, we want to care about everybody. Problem is, nature doesn't want us to have contact with folks half-way around the globe. At some point, we need to focus on what's around us, in our neighborhoods, our states, and our nation. I'd like to see us stay focused on ourselves. Look, we're not able to correct the ills in the US. What makes us think that we can fix the entire World? Hey, I've got an idea: once we've eliminated lobbyist money from US politics and have restored wealth-equity HERE, we'll bother with Egypt, and every other nation that deserves to be manipulated.

Whatcha think?

[Raine]

200. I don't agree. Until there is an upheavel here

this country will never gets it's boot off the necks of the people in other countries.

[inna]

204. this thread is insulting to intelligence, really. enough said.

[Godhumor]

205. Yes, all the people who think with glee that the situation here is anyway resembling Egypt

is insulting to intelligence.

It's disgraceful to undercut why the Egyptians felt the need to do this by co-opting their grievances.

[Maru Kitteh]

209. +1 well said. n/t

[RegieRocker]

228. There are enough similarities to see a correlation.

To think 100% correlation is needed is thinking from a corporatist view point. People seeing a correlation in no way diminishes the Egyptians cause nor is wrong for people to do so. As a matter of fact, the people who see a correlation, most definitely side with the Egyptians and hope they acquire what they are protesting for more than those who don't see a correlation. If there are any motives that are in question, in would be yours unless you are Egyptian yourself. If you are, look at the correlation as a solidarity with the Egyptian people. Many are on the Egyptians side.

[Godhumor]

237. Correlation? The Egyptian face overwhelmingly different economic and societal differences

The "socialists" who think this could lead to a revolution in the US don't have the support or the will of the populace to enact change. The fact is, to have an uprising like this, you need a large enough population to do so--there are very few in the US who want to blow the whole thing up.

And I would argue that trying to tell an Egyptian that our problems are similar enough to theirs would be akin to slapping them in the face. Respect and solidarity with the Egyptians is about supporting their right to do what they're doing; not by trying to convince the world that we share the same problems on such a massive scale.

[RegieRocker]

239. 100% Dude did you miss that?

100% is not need for a correlation. You really think that another country has to be identical in every way to associate themselves with the protests that are taking place in Egypt? You're sorely mistaken. God help us all if many think like you.

[wisteria]

211. Some people like revolution for the sake of revolution. n/t

[jotsy]

215. I believe Tunisia was first, it seems the entire southside of the Med is rocking.

The red shirts of Thailand, the recent episodes in Greece, the students from the United Kingdom. It's already not just Egypt's battle. I don't feel that to identify with them in terms of the obstacles to accessing the existential infrastructure and wanting to fight for fairness in that is an insult. My first question would be if all we want is fair, why have we been made to fight for it?

But your thread has developed and also degraded as the topic turns to talk of revolution here, what it means, what it looks like and what justifies it. Some of the comments up thread are contentious and phrased in ways that borrow a wide brush of authority with an audacity I find a bit mind boggling.

I say a revolution is what we make it and one does indeed need making if the notion of this nation is to endure. I don't appreciate being painted into a box with tea party noodles for thinking that, either. My allegiances lie to the spirit of the democratic principle, you know social and economic equality? If what I understand about how my government is supposed to operate is true, then I know that none of it is working as designed or intended. If you want a branch by branch break down of that, let me know. That's why I contend revolution is justified.

So zip through about a cajillion scenarios and subsequent what ifs to arrive at what it can look like. I contend it depends on the means, a blood in the streets confrontation doesn't have to be had for revolutionary tactics to be engaged in. That is a worst case scenario, (given no other countries armies are here, liberating us from the tyranny of our leaders) will bring the kind of open ended ugly, survival of the fittest crap it hurts me to see any child face.

What I have called for is a bloodless coup, what that entails is non compliance in some facets and a good hard push in others. Stop the flow of money to the machine and demand the EQUAL application and enforcement of the rule of law. The man power exists due to the lack of jobs to visit local offices of DA's and Justice Department satellites. Go in number, go repeatedly, go with alternative media in tow and arm yourselves with the tools as outlined in Vincent Bugliosi's book, The Prosecution of George W. Bush. A separate contingent could apply that same principle to the financial services industry which economist Michael Hudson recently described as a stupid parasite that believes it can suck its host dry and move on freely to the next victim. I owe people around the world the effort of trying to see that discontinued.

What does it mean? It may mean we live without electricity and cell phones and plumbing for awhile. Seems to me the pioneers managed. If fear of being without modern day conveniences convinces some that a lifetime of servitude is preferable, I guess that's their call to make, but I wonder how they'll feel when the day comes, that they are without those things anyway. It might mean that the call to mold governance as needed in the view of this public can be seen to still and all these years later, the declaration of independence us calls us home even when echoed from far off lands like Egypt.

This populace risking violence, death and disappearance and where we're at or what is necessary is not for you alone to determine. I find us not where we are supposed to be as a nation, based on the repeated usurpation of the public will, which we are said to be of, by and for. I know I am not alone in these beliefs, and that more share my beliefs than did last year or even last month. The swell is on and government here will learn to act as a conduit of the public will or find itself replaced, or deemed unnecessary by its monetary masters who will leave them high and dry when there's nothing left if we don't revolt. That's the bed they've made for themselves and when the time comes, them who'll be sleeping in the wet spot.

Many a poster put on the defensive in this thread, a couple have handled some pretty snarky comments with respectable grace and one in particular has garnered my awe for their ninja like precision as a debater, I hope you know who you are! Well done.

[Modern_Matthew]

229. Won't happen unless there's a collapse of the welfare system...

We have the pressure valve of the welfare system. I just don't see protests of this magnitude occurring in the U.S. unless there is a total collapse of the welfare system.

We live in a country that gives us just enough not to be satisfied, but quite enough to not bring about an uprising.

[inna]

238. "welfare system" is a RW term. just sayin', FYI.