President Obama is raising my taxes. I am barely above the poverty line.

[AlabamaLibrul]

Just thought you guys should know that, while the stimulus of the forthcoming traffic at Mercedes and Maserati dealerships is certainly appreciated.

[phasma ex machina]

1. Inflation's the biggest tax of all - it funds the war machine. nt

[lonestarnot]

88. And silent reduction of weights and sizes of food products appear to be shrinking

so they apparently are counted as an indication of inflation.

[femrap]

117. The lose of

PURCHASING POWER, ie Inflation, is the biggest tax of all.

Last month Food Prices were up 1%....that's 12% annualized. I see it at the grocery store. I'm a Budget Hawk and note every price increase and every package-size decrease. And I write to the companies telling them I know what they're doing...I'm not stupid.

[Rex]

2. I am right there with you!

As is the majority of workers in America. Making 18k a year and being told it is enough to live on is a pathetic joke. Thankfully I went into business for myself and work for someone else as well. Two jobs are better than no jobs imo.

[Lorien]

6. Yep, me too

I'm struggling to hang on. The bank would like nothing better than to take away my home now that I have less than 90k to pay on it.

[phasma ex machina]

16. +1 The powers-that-be who just gave themselves a tax break do indeed want your home.

[L. Coyote]

76. and 150,000,000 million other poor Americans in households with more taxes.

Counting members of households, Obama and the Pukes just raised taxes on 150 million Americans.

[femrap]

118. It's beyond disgusting.

May the rich choke on their $$$.

[Delphinus]

46. I used to have

supplemental jobs to help my part-time income. That's dried up. I'm doing my best and hanging on, but not sure how long that will last. Today I cried for the first time due to the stress of this.

[Rex]

108. Hey we can try and survive together here on DU.

My life is still up in the air on both and job security is a joke, like health insurance. Crying can be good. :hug:

[Delphinus]

158. Hugs back to you.

Thanks. :hug:

[Divernan]

125. I totally empathize with you.

I'm a senior citizen who just about killed myself working going door to door in last summer's heat, working on the Census. I made enough to pay my property taxes and do a few necessary repairs. I'm not sure how I'll pay them next year. There is next to no "age-appropriate" work out there - by which I mean part-time and accommodating to my increasingly fragile health. All this tea party talk about increasing the retirement age is out of touch with the reality of aging.

Good luck to you in 2011 - I hope your situation will improve. A Christmas hug from Pennsylvania!

On edit: as to the census work, I had to go to some huge estates, and I'm here to tell you, most of the wealthy I had to talk to treat the rest of us as if we were different species!

[Delphinus]

160. And a Christmas hug

back to you from Indiana! :hug:

The wealthy - reminds me of a book from years ago called The Rich are Different - they really are, aren't they (and I don't necessarily mean in a good way).

I keep thinking that those of us who really are severely impacted will find a way to overcome this nonsense. Best of luck to you in the future.

[Skink]

3. I hear ya.

I make enough to survive, I'll even pay this higher tax but to see no other tax bracket effected if shameful.

Now the payroll tax holiday has other issues and I hope it goes down.

[myrna minx]

4. I'm so sorry that so many were left behind in this.

:hug: I feel horrible for the 99ers too. They've been completely forgotten and cast aside as well.

[somone]

9. The 99ers really got shafted

UI should have been a separate issue - period.

[pnwmom]

15. Many people here don't understand that the bottom tax rate of

10% was going to expire and return to a bottom rate of 15% -- which would have caused a much greater increase in taxes for lower income people than replacing the one-year stimulus program called "Make America Work" with a reduced rate in the Social Security tax.

And if this stimulus package works, the economy will improve, more employers will start hiring, and the 99ers will benefit, too.

[elleng]

29. Good summary; thanks.

[Hello_Kitty]

38. Nope, sorry, you don't get to use that comparison anymore.

The bill is signed. We don't have what we could have had. We have what is. A compromise that means the lowest wage workers will have less in their pockets in 2011 than they did in 2010.

I find the continued dismissal of this unfairness and the red herrings to be obnoxious and tone deaf.

[pnwmom]

58. Of course I can. The choice was between going back to the 2001 tax rate

of 15% or keeping the current 10%. The Make America Work grant was only intended as a one-year stimulus.

People like you are deliberately twisting the facts.

[Hello_Kitty]

68. That choice never really existed and it's gone now.

And eliminating MWP and replacing it with the payroll holiday was a deliberate decision by those crafting the deal. Obama owns this since the WH is describing the SS tax cut as a win for our side. They made the choice to take money away from the poorest workers and give it to the wealthiest. I'm not twisting anything.

[SOS]

124. $29 a year

That's the average value of the Cheney tax cuts to the bottom fifth.
$2.40 a month
60 cents a week.

A 50% tax increase sounds terrible, but the actual increase for the bottom fifth would average 60 cents a week.
People earning over $1 million save an average of $114,000 a year under the Cheney system.

And by allowing Making Work Pay to expire, people earning under $20K will be getting a tax increase in 2011.
A person earning $15K will be worse off under this tax deal than he or she would have been under expiration.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3220

on edit - speaking of facts, MWP was for 2009 and 2010, not one year.

It should come as no surprise that the deal crafted inside the Green Zone would wildly benefit the rich while
shafting those under $20K. It's disgusting, yet not surprising.

[CreekDog]

151. why do you keep defending this? they got everybody's tax cut right except for these folks

it's not defensible. they screwed up and instead of screwing the rich out of a couple hundred bucks, they screwed the poor.

yeah that's the opposite of the kind of mistake that i expect Obama to allow.

but he did.

[AlabamaLibrul]

53. Is it okay that, in replacing MWP, the poor's taxes go up from this year while the rich go down

even further? I understand it entirely, that my taxes would have gone up without a compromise. I'd have rather been a part of shared sacrifice than a "compromise" that helps the rich, and hurts the poor.

I have to obviously reject the idea that this will do anything at all to spur growth. It didn't for the last decade.

[stillwaiting]

113. It spurs the growth of the wealthy elites bank accounts. That's about it.

We were so robbed by this "compromise".

The fact that the wealthiest will be taxed EVEN LESS overall under the Obama tax cuts than under the Bush tax cuts is very, very telling. There's no getting around that fact.

[femrap]

119. IF this tax package works....

that's a big IF. And I don't think one can call this Bill a 'stimulus' bill. It was a bill to CUT TAXES.

Employers/Corporations do NOTHING out of the goodness of their heart. They're sitting on a pile of cash. They can simply buy back their shares of stock (if publicly traded) or simply invest in an overseas Hedge Fund or in another bubble like Commodities.

Offering jobs to the 99ers? Very doubtful. Many employers will NOT even interview you IF you don't already HAVE A JOB. That's what it is like out their in the real world. I became a 99er last week. All I see are $8/hour jobs w/ no benefits. And I have a Masters Degree in Industrial Engineering.

And I have major problems with reducing the amount people put into their Social Security Accounts....it's very short-sighted....basically cutting off one's nose to spite the face....unless, of course, one DIES before the age of 62 and has NO DISABILITIES.

[CreekDog]

150. but everyone was spared from a tax increase, except the poorest people

that's a rather big exception to make and it rankles.

[TalkingDog]

152. "IF" encompasses many possibilites

"if" the stimulus package works,
"if" the economy improves,
"if" employers start hiring


and "IF" the tax cuts for the rich don't kill the economy exactly like they did in 1929,
http://www.politicususa.com/en/why-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-killed-the-economy-in-1929-and-are-killing-us-again


MAAAAAYBE, things will get better....

somehow

at some future, as yet undisclosed date.....




*time passes*




still waiting

[skyounkin]

179. "IF"?

If this plan works?

IT WON'T!!

It hasn't worked for the past 10 goddamn years since these tax cuts were forced upon the people.

Extending them won't make a damn bit of difference.

And let's not think about how bad it would have been if Obama just raised the taxes on the top 2%. But, no, can't have that.

He might hurt the feelings of some fucking millionaires.

[TwilightGardener]

5. He is? How so?

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Is he the President?

[TwilightGardener]

8. By what specific mechanism did he raise taxes on this poster?

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. The bill he just signed onto law

:hi:

There are days...

[TwilightGardener]

19. No--by what specific mechanism in the bill did he raise taxes on this poster?

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Read the analysis from experts since obviously you

do not believe this is possible, that those making 17K or less will pay more in taxes.

I can't help you, if you are NOT willing to do the work YOURSELF.

All that hope and shit is just that... SHIT.

[TwilightGardener]

27. You can't answer the question. Because Obama did not raise the poster's taxes.

The Making Work Pay tax cut expired. That was a stimulus measure that was scheduled to expire. Claiming that your taxes are being raised because a temporary cut is expiring is the same as complaining that your company cut your pay in January when you didn't get your Christmas bonus again after Christmas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Yes I can, but you refuse to do homework

boosters usually face a fate that is interesting. When all the reality finally hits them in the guiding lights. You will get it, or perhaps not.

but here you go, some sources so perhaps you will get it, don't expect it, but whatever

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/11/12/919902/-CTJ:-Senate-GOP-Bill-RAISES-TAXES-on-Bottom-60-of-Americans

As I said, I can lead the horse, but cannot force the horse to drink from that water.

[TwilightGardener]

33. That's dated November 11th--it's a Senate Republican bill regarding

permanent tax cuts. It's not the same bill Obama has just signed into law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. And current analysis says that they are still going up

have a good life.

I really have had it with the boosters.

Try doing your homework.. but the anger from the OP is not feigned.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shellgame26]

127. "current analysis"..sounds like "some say"

[tabasco]

131. You are willfully unaware of reality. n/t

[Donnachaidh]

139. too bad the admin didn't use that very same argument to let the elite tax cuts expire

Seriously, dragging out this to use against a poor person who is not in the position to just *suck it up and deal* is shameless and HEARTLESS, especially on this forum. Unbelievably heartless.

I guess the poor are just another *annoyance* to those who benefit from the big christmas gift from Washington.

[shireen]

153. +1

i was just thinking the same thing. keeping the Bush tax cuts alive for 2 more years is a form of stimulus.

Letting the Making Work Pay tax expire was cruel. I didn't realize that had happened as well, and now i'm really livid. :mad:

[SnakeEyes]

165. It's the same argument being used

by the right with regard to the bush tax cuts being extended. That if they didn't it would amount to a tax increase. Most on DU rejected that argument and if one is consistent they should reject it when used here.

[Hello_Kitty]

75. Here: Let Larry Summers tell you.

Senior White House adviser Larry Summers told reporters on Wednesday that the GOP wanted to replace Making Work Pay with the payroll cut. "It came out of the process of compromise with the Republicans who were more attracted to the payroll tax holiday concept, and that was a proposal that, as had been coming out of here, we had been giving considerable thought to in the context of the President's budget," he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/10/obamarepublican-deal-coul_n_795187.html

[TwilightGardener]

87. Right. They didn't want it. It wasn't going to pass, because Republicans

weren't going to accept it.

[Hello_Kitty]

97. But the GOP wanted the payroll tax cut, and so did the Admin.

So they agreed to trade the Making Work Pay credit for the regressive payroll tax holiday. Which is counted as a "win" for the Administration.

[TwilightGardener]

100. If you can't get what you want, you settle for something else.

They wanted more than just to keep the cuts, they wanted a boost to the economy. They took what they could get. I can't fault them.

[quakerboy]

159. Right

I see some flaws in your theory. just a few mind you. If the bank can't get their payments, they settle for your house. If you can't get food, you settle for no food. You may starve to death, but you settle for something else, which makes everything OK.


Sometimes I feel that this "don't dismiss good, just cause its not perfect" misses the point that "good" isn't always enough. If you miss the bus to work, It doesn't really matter if you worked on your morning routine and got it so you only missed the bus by one minute, not the normal 5. You still missed the bus.

[truedelphi]

10. Almost every expert addressing the issue admits this is happening.

That many people who are making around 17K a year, or under, will be paying a "few dollars" more each week.

But of course, if you are making 17 K and you pay 3 dollars a week more, that is almost a 1% raise on your income tax levels.

There is something obscenely wrong with a nation that allows its millionaires and billionaires to scream "Damn ruination" abut the proposal for a four percent hike on their earnings.

And so they are let off the hook. While the poorest among us are just expected to get blood from a turnip.

[TwilightGardener]

13. What specific action did Obama make to raise taxes on this poster?

[nashville_brook]

40. here: "Obama's deal will raise taxes for some low-income workers" - McClatchy

If you earn less than $20K (or $40K-couple) you pay between $400 ad $800 more a year.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/08/104986/under-obamas-deal-taxes-will-rise.html

WASHINGTON — The tax deal struck this week between the White House and congressional leaders has a little bit for most taxpayers in the country. But some of the nation's poorest workers will actually end up worse off.

(snip)

At the same time, the proposal eliminates the "Making Work Pay" tax credit that was originally part of President Barack Obama's 2009 stimulus package and reduced Americans' taxes by up to $400 for an individual or $800 for a couple.

When comparing the Social Security reduction versus the current tax credit, middle- and upper-income Americans will fare far better under the new proposal. But some lower-income workers won't.

The break-even point is $20,000 for an individual and $40,000 for a couple. All other things being equal, make less than those figures in a year, and your taxes will go up come Jan. 1, 2011. Make more and they'll go down.



Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/08/104986/under-obamas-deal-taxes-will-rise.html#ixzz18PpNvnLR

[TwilightGardener]

52. Right--because Making Work Pay expires. It would expire no matter what.

It was a stimulus that wasn't renewed. That's not the same as actively raising a person's taxes. So anyone who professes that Obama raised their taxes because this one stimulus measure wasn't permanent is being either dishonest or does not understand what happened. Again, it's like claiming your employer gave you a pay cut because you got a Christmas bonus in one paycheck but not in the next.

[Kalun D]

66. Sure it is

""That's not the same as actively raising a person's taxes.""

It's the net end results that count, they extended the filthy richer's tax cuts and they didn't extend the poor workers MWP benefit.

[TwilightGardener]

71. No, it's not. The MWP credit was for everybody, and it went bye bye

as it was expected to do. Because it wasn't so much tax policy as it was a temporary stimulus measure.

[Hello_Kitty]

73. But I thought the payroll holiday is supposed to be temporary too.

Or maybe not...

[Kalun D]

81. Bottom Line

End NET result

the poor pay more, the rich pay less, has been that way for the last 30 years, why else would disparity be increasing?

[TwilightGardener]

85. Everybody lost the credit. Not just the poor. It's just that they're not

benefitting as much from the payroll tax holiday (another stimulus measure added to the bill) as middle class people. That was the basis of the conclusion that taxes were going up for the poor--because they weren't going to benefit AS MUCH as previously, when the two temporary stimulus measures are compared. Not benefitting as much because some happy little gimme has come to its expected end, and isn't fully offset by another temporary happy little gimme, is NOT a tax increase. Especially when one considers the fact that these particular stimulus measures didn't have to happen at all. If someone cuts me a temporary break on the cost of an item, and I know it's just for a limited time, I don't scream that prices are being raised on me when the break ends. That's no different than Repubs claiming Obama will raise taxes by letting the cuts expire. It's not really an honest argument.

[Hello_Kitty]

93. Everyone lost the MWP credit but higher wage earners make out better .

Using your analogy, it's like saying "Poor people, we are now increasing the cost of this item for you but discounting it even further for people making more than $40K." I can't imagine why the people getting the increase would be upset! :sarcasm:

[TwilightGardener]

94. You're right, I can't imagine why people who are opposed to the tax compromise

are bent out of shape because of what's NOT in a bill they already OPPOSE. If one was begging his or her Congresscritter to vote "no" and let the cuts expire and the bill fail, then you automatically support tax rates going up for everybody and NO stimulus measures. So it's illogical to then take the attitude that the bill doesn't go far enough in its tax-cutting mission and stimulus benefit.

[Hello_Kitty]

96. I can't imagine why you thought letting all the tax cuts and credits expire was ever an option.

Let's live in the present, shall we? The bill that was signed by President Obama today is the situation we have. It includes the swapping of Making Work Pay for the payroll tax cut, which accrues disproportionately to people making over $100K per year.

Make $10K a year, you lose about $200 in 2011 compared to 2010. That's the difference between the MWP credit and the SS tax cut for you.

Make $100K or over, you gain about $1600. That's the difference between the MWP credit and the SS tax cut for you.

That is some regressive shit, I don't care how you want to defend it.

BTW, as of a few days ago, I wasn't for killing the entire bill. I called my members of Congress and asked them to address the disparity. It could have been fixed by reinstating a partial MWP credit or expanding EITC for the affected workers so that they wouldn't LOSE money from this compromise. I encouraged others to do the same. The White House and the Dems in Congress ignored it.

[TwilightGardener]

99. I didn't think it was a GOOD option. But it's what a lot of people here were urging.

That said, it's a shame that the MWP credit wasn't allowed to be renewed as part of the bill, but...the GOPers weren't going to pass it. They didn't want it. That's the way it is. I suppose one can be angry that Obama even offered this credit to begin with, simply because it's ending. But, just wait a few weeks more and no one would like anything the GOP House comes up with, tax-wise.

[Hello_Kitty]

102. But the GOP did want the regressive payroll tax holiday.

So it would be nice if the WH and its loyalists would stop acting like this regressive crap (and possible poison pill against SS) was a victory for Democrats.

[TwilightGardener]

103. I don't know what the effects will be. Krugman wasn't opposed to it, just

wary that Obama would have trouble letting the rate reset to normal, IIRC.

[Hello_Kitty]

104. Not sure Krugman was taking the actual regressiveness into effect.

Raising taxes from 2010 to 2011 on 1 in 3 workers, even if it's just a little bit, cannot be stimulative to the economy. The lowest wage workers spend all they get. People making above $80K are more likely to sock it away into savings or retirement plans.

[truedelphi]

185. Congress people are not paid by the firms that lobbyists work for

To fix the disparities.

Ain't gonna happen, not in our life time. Unless we suddenly take to the streets like the people in the Phillipines did in the mid eighties, and the people in BOlivia more recently.

And not just for a pleasant Sat afternoon outing of walking around the downtown area. But actually OCCUPYING Talking Head studios where the Talking Heads spout the lies.

[martymar64]

132. Tax cuts are not stimulus. Quit spreading supply sider lies

[tritsofme]

161. All tax cuts are not examples of supply side economics.

Cutting taxes on lower-middle income workers is definitely stimulative. Whether it is as effective as other forms of stimulus is another matter.

A payroll tax cut has nothing to do with supply side theory.

[martymar64]

181. The payroll tax cut is the back door to attack Social Security

It's a giveaway to the Republicans that want to mix the Social Security fund in with the Genral Fund. That way they can justify cutting or eliminating it in the name of austerity.

That is much worse than anything else in this bill. It is a supply sider's wet dream. It's just opened a bigger pool of money that Obama and his Republican bankster buddies Geithner and Summers will be able to give to Goldman Sachs and the rest of the thieves on Wall Street.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Facts don't matter to people

ideology does.

In the end I will pay more taxes too.

And when elections come, people will remember.

For the record I don't mind paying more, if it is a fair exchange... read Progressive Taxation.

[dflprincess]

82. So if Obama had allowed Bush's "temporary" tax cuts to expire

that really wouldn't have been a raise in taxes either - because, after all, we all knew the drop in tax rates was just a temporary stimulus effort.

[TwilightGardener]

86. Actually, Obama wanted to make those rates permanent for the middle class.

They were renewed not because they would be a stimulus but because they would keep us from backsliding during a fragile economic recovery. I can understand not wanting to snatch spending money out of people's hands right now. I also didn't buy the argument that Obama is raising taxes by letting the cuts expire--although that will be the GOP/media spin that will prevail. I think it's dishonest, but it's what would have happened.

[femrap]

120. This just irks the

crap out of me. So women have to reproduce and become a 'family' so to get tax credits??? Given the dimishing resources in this world, there be a tax that rewards women for NOT reproducing. It's not like we're an agrarian society that needs kids to work on the farm anymore.

I live in Dumfukistan.

And just wait for your State to start cutting programs for the least of us. Many states are in dire shape. First to go will be programs for the Elderly, Single Mothers, kids of the poor and working poor, the sick and the homeless.

I would wager that next Christmas, this nation will look very different...mean, cruel and hateful.

I am sickened and disgusted by this Tax Bill.

[truedelphi]

111. If you want specifics, this post contains some vital links

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x32506

[ProudDad]

168. His capitulation to his republican collegues...

:shrug:

[truedelphi]

184. OH YEAH, BABY...

Capitulation and collusion is the name of the game.

[ProudDad]

169. His capitulation to his republican collegues...

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

20. Only if you compare next year's taxes to this year's taxes,

when we have a bottom rate of 10% and also have the one-year Make America Work program.

However, that bottom rate of 10% expires at the end of 2010 and increases 50% (to the levels that were in place in 2001). So if you compare overall what would be paid next year to what would have been paid if a bill hadn't been passed to retain the 10% rate, these people are still much better off.

[truedelphi]

23. So the fact that tthe bottom rate can basically eat their shorts doesn't bother those here

On DU who have so faithfully remembered the Talking Points.

Jeesh!

Well at least this time around no one is pointing fingers at us poorer people and telling us that it's too bad we are not getting our ponies!

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Trust me some of us

who are a little luckier, are calling the true believers on their shit.

It will raise your taxes, every analysts I have read agrees. But some folks are still blinded by this.

[truedelphi]

30. I am hoping some on this board are still fond of

Real Democratic Principles.

Your remark cheers me up a little.

[Horse with no Name]

25. However, if you scrub the blood off that turnip too hard

then you lose another day's meal.
Be gentle.

[truedelphi]

32. Hey Horse with no name

:hug:

I am getting rather good at the turnip scrubbing thing. Likeyou suggest, it requires a soft touch.

[Horse with no Name]

35. We're ALL going to have to learn ways to stretch our dollars

at least those that are lucky enough to still have them.:(
:hug:

[treestar]

28. This sounds like a dodge

That same person would qualify for many of the credits.

Not buying it for now. Unless more evidence is given, it appears a form of left wing spin.

I have seen by now enough chicken little threads for disasters that turned out not to be true.

[Ikonoklast]

37. The world's ending soon anyway, or so I've read here.

So, this matters not.


Or, does it?


I get confused.

[fascisthunter]

50. for some it actually is

[Hello_Kitty]

41. I don't qualify for any of the credits.

If I make the same next year as I did this year my taxes are going up $180.

But hey, I'm not one of the people who matter so who cares?

[Hello_Kitty]

44. Here's the evidence

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=2866&DocTypeID=7

The columns show the difference between MWP and the payroll holiday for the different tax brackets.

Oh, and "left wing spin"? Really?

[shireen]

154. that is chilling

those last two columns tell the story. It's horrible.

The bottom line: people in poverty are being ignored. period.

[GinaMaria]

176. That is seriously f'ed up

What can be done to help? Those numbers are distressing.

[Brookyn_Queen]

175. Left wing spin?

Is this not a Democratic board? I was under the impression that left wingers were welcome here.

Even so, it seems more credible than anything else that's being put out.

[fascisthunter]

47. why is the sky blue?

no, but why?

[nashville_brook]

11. silly -- someone has to pay for cutting the estate tax!! sheesh.

yes, that's sarcasm.

[pnwmom]

12. Not really.

For people at the low end of the tax range, without President Obama's bill, overall income taxes would be rising by 50% -- from 10% now to the 15% rate we had in 2001.

What you are referring to is the end of the one-year stimulus called "Make America Work" which is being replaced by the Social Security rate cut. So comparing next year to this year, you will have paid more taxes. But that doesn't account for the increase in the lowest income tax rate, since that 10% rate was set to expire at the end of 2010. Without the new bill, you would have ended up paying 50% more on the same income than you would have paid in 2001. So, yes, you will be be paying somewhat more next year than this year because "Make America Work" expired on schedule. But overall you'd be paying much MORE if the 2001 law was allowed to expire and your rate returned to 15%.

[Hello_Kitty]

42. So you honestly think it's okay?

That the lowest wage workers are the only people who make out worse with the MWP/payroll holiday swap? A person making $10K loses $200 while a person making $100K gains about $1400 (SS tax cut - MWP).

That is the definition of regressive.

[fascisthunter]

49. some people live comfortably

its why they can dismiss this so easily. Thing is, there are people who live comfortably, yet still care, so it really comes down to whether people care or not.

[femrap]

121. There is something called

Fairness....Justice. I live those principles. This sickening Tax Cut for Rich Bill is NOT FAIR. It is NOT JUST.

Someday those with their inherited wealth will find themselves looking at pitchforks aimed at their fat bellies.

edit for spelling

[MedicalAdmin]

133. Pitchforks? Don't be so harsh! Let's toast to their health!

[ProudDad]

167. Yes, they do... They are among the elitist class

Unlike you and I, they make more than 20K...

[AlabamaLibrul]

51. Yes, really. My taxes are going up. Just because they are going up less than they would have

if the rich didn't get their tax cuts (PLUS a larger cut than this year with MWP vs. SocSec tax) as part of this terrible "compromise", does not mean that I didn't get shafted so that the rich can go buy another Mercedes.

The campaign promise was not to raise taxes on those making less than $250,000 a year. Not only are my taxes going up from this year to next, but the rich's taxes are going FURTHER down from this year to next.

It's not a "continuation" of the Bush tax cuts, it's a new tax cut for the rich entirely.

[pnwmom]

60. Your tax RATE will not be going up. It will remain at 10%

if you're at the lowest level. But the one-year give-back stimulus program called Make America Work will expire.

[AlabamaLibrul]

61. Oh well my tax RATE isn't going up, great! I'll send in the same amount I sent last year then. n/t

[pnwmom]

67. Do that. All that will change is that you won't get a check in the mail

from the Make America Work act.

[hay rick]

89. Their tax RATE isn't going up, only their tax BILL.

That's so much better. As you say "the one-year give-back stimulus program called Make America Work will expire." And as you don't say, the ten-year give-back program called tax cuts for the rich gets at least a two year extension.

Of course, the word "stimulus" was never used to characterize the tax cuts for the rich, but we were told that it would take the shackles off growth in the economy and the trickle down effect would become a flood and a rising tide would lift all boats, not just the super yachts. This theory has worked so well for so many over the last decade that it certainly deserves AT LEAST two more years to further demonstrate its awesome power.

[shireen]

156. look at it another way ...

This discussion is not about whether the tax package should have passed or not. It's about what was left out of the legislation.

why was the impact of letting the 'Making Work Pay' tax cut expiration NOT considered during the tax negotiations? Did anyone run the numbers on how the poor would be affected by this tax cut package? If they had retained the 'Making Work Pay' tax cut for people earning less than $40k, it would have really helped people in those income brackets. The fact is that the poor were simply not factored in their grand plan. They were irrelevant. That is utterly sickening.

Hello Kitty provided a link to a page with some teiing numbers. Go look at the last two columns,
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=2866&DocTypeID=7

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sasha031]

22. why do you feel a need to attack people when they are talking

[pnwmom]

57. They can't do math or else don't understand that the 10% tax rate

was automatically going to rise to 15% after the end of this year.

[rapturedbyrobots]

83. its all about the math

it is about the math. you're playing semantics to defend a shitty policy choice. has it really come to this? we have to parse our words to defend the democratic president? what a joke.

will satisfy you?

obama did not raise my taxes, but he allowed the amount of money in my bank account to go down.

active, passive, tax hike, benefit expiration...WHO CARES!?! bottom line is that either way you parse it, there's less money in the pockets of the poor. and much much more in the pockets of the rich.

[ProudDad]

173. Due to democrat sloth or incompetence or collusion...

"the 10% tax rate <on ONLY the first 8,350 of TAXABLE INCOME> was automatically going to rise to 15% after the end of this year"

[Egnever]

62. Well said! Its a FUCKING LIE!

[AlabamaLibrul]

65. self-delete: not going to get into personal attacks over this

[TheKentuckian]

78. How the fuck is it a lie when the people we claim this is being done to help will pay more

next year than this year and the top 20% will not see an increase of a single dime?

Your ability to explain WHY something is happening does not make that thing false.

Low income people will pay more next year than this. That isn't a lie but rather a stone, cold fact. A fact that hobbles the claim of an stimulus in the bill outside the unemployment benefits since around of a third of workers will in real dollars, have less money than they struggled by with this year.

You can fire bile and curses all you want but the count of dollars for the same pay rate will be less.

[SidDithers]

64. +1...nt

Sid

[sasha031]

18. I feel your pain, I struggle too

but even if I was in a high tax bracket, how could I justify getting a tax break when so many are left behind.


thank you for sharing that, because you speak for millions.

and how about the 99's, that were left out. It says allot about what people are turning into.

[elleng]

26. President Obama is NOT raising your taxes,

the Congress/Senate forced this to happen, along with recent history's repug spending sprees. WE will have to remedy THEIR fu**-ups, for MANY years to come.

[Hello_Kitty]

39. And they're just paupers anyway, so who cares? eom

[intheflow]

80. "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

Just getting into the Christmas spirit in this thread. :eyes:

[AlabamaLibrul]

55. It was Obama's compromise n/t

[elleng]

74. It was THEIR compromise; one does not compromise with oneself.

[totodeinhere]

95. No, it takes two to compromise. Obama was one of the two and the GOP was the other. n/t

[Dappleganger]

98. His signature is on the bill.

HE made the deal with the republicans, so YES those taxes on the poor are going up.

How's you like dem apples?

[smiley]

34. the rich keep getting richer

and the poor... well, who really cares about the poor anyway.

[slackmaster]

43. I keep getting told that it's no big deal, and I should be glad to pay my share

:argh:

[Hello_Kitty]

45. "Shut up, pauper, it could have been WORSE" is what I keep hearing.

[katnapped]

48. Yes you should

We need to be happy that we live in a free country (GODBLESSAMERICA) where we're able to sacrifice a little extra for the nobility that owns us. How would we ever survive without the Waltons of the world?

:sarcasm:

[TwilightGardener]

54. You should want all tax cuts for the low earners to expire, therefore their taxes

will go up, but that's OK because the wealthy will pay more, and that's a victory. But then you must complain that the low wage earners' taxes aren't being cut ENOUGH, therefore Obama hates poor people. Or something. I can't get the outrage du jour straight. Teh logic, there iz none.

[AlabamaLibrul]

56. The claim was that we all had to share in the sacrifice. Instead, taxes are only going up for the

poor.

[TwilightGardener]

63. A stimulus tax cut was scheduled to end, and is ending.

But no one raised your taxes just because a temporary credit expired. And Obama even tried to have it renewed as part of the compromise, for additional stimulus, but Repubs said no. So Obama did not raise your taxes, any more than a boss is cutting your pay when he gives you a one-time bonus and then stops giving it to you in the next paycheck. If you must blame someone for not renewing the Making Work Pay credit, you could try blaming...Republicans.

[AlabamaLibrul]

70. The one that helps the rich was scheduled to end, too. But only the one for the poor did. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

90. That tax credit went away for everyone. Repubs would not agree to renew it.

[Hello_Kitty]

107. Instead the Repubs got a payroll taxcut

That benefits them more than low income workers. And one that is a shot across the bow toward their goal of defunding Social Security.

[AlabamaLibrul]

69. If inflation is up 3% a year for a few years, and then goes down 2% for a few years

you do not then say that inflation is at x year levels.

I'd like to remind everyone of that, and I wish I could add it to the OP.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yo_Mama]

79. You're right and this is sickening

I cannot believe that there are people on DU who would try to argue this away.

It is true that the MWP tax credit was due to expire. So were a bunch of tax cuts. BUT, whereas the tax cuts for the upper middle class and upper class were actually INCREASED from 2010, the tax cuts for the low-income workers were DECREASED from 2010. The way that this was accomplished was to replace the MWP credit with the 2% payroll tax reduction.

And this is the deal that Obama announced, and that the Democrats passed. I will not write what I think of this, because I would be thrown off the board if I did. But you ain't gonna be seeing a whole lot of donkey stickers on my car henceforth - I'm beginning to feel like too much of a jackass already for believing in these people. And when I am called for donations, I will politely explain to the caller what I have written below, and tell them that henceforth I am giving my donations to the people who were just screwed. And I am. Because clearly DC doesn't give a shit about them!

The net effect of the "deal" is a very substantial shift in the overall tax burden toward lower income workers. Here's how this plays out.

Last year, if you earned 15K you got a $400 tax credit. This year, you will get a $300 tax credit. If you have a spouse also earning 15K, last year the two of you had an $800 tax credit and this year you will have a $600 tax credit.

But now consider a worker earning 100K. The MWP was figured as 6.2% of earned income to a maximum of $400 per worker. However the MWP was reduced by 2% of the amount paid to the worker over 75K a year. Therefore, if you earned 10K last year you got a $400 tax credit. If you earned 75K a year, you got a $400 tax credit. If you earned 85K last year, you got a $300 tax credit, and if you earned 100K last year, you got $0 tax credit.

THIS year, if you earn 10K you get a $200 tax credit, and if you earn 100K a year, you get a $2,000 tax credit. If you earn $107,000 (107K) you get $2,140, and if you earn 200K a year you get $2,140. This isn't Democratic. It's not even sane. It's economically harmful and terribly unjust.

Those of you abusing the OP owe him an apology. This isn't right and he isn't complaining for no reason. Any economist will tell you that shifting the tax burden regressively in this manner will have a harmful economic effect, and it will be redoubled by the poor economy which is forcing so many into minimum wage or low wage jobs. This cannot be explained away or justified. It is flat-out pandering to the better-off, and I am beginning to suspect that this was federal union payola. Which I do not mind that much, but it should not have come at the expense of the lower-income worker, or the unemployed worker.

I am completely disillusioned. Also furious. And no, I am not being impacted very much, but I still feel sick to my stomach.

Now add to this that the 99ers aren't helped at all by this deal. I never in my lifetime expected to see this from any party calling itself "Democratic", and I will never get over this.

And don't forget, many of these people are experiencing a drop in real incomes because of where the inflating costs are in this economy. They don't profit from the deflating prices. Their purchases are mainly of things that are inflating quite quickly, because there are no alternatives. The net effect of increasing the deficit in this manner is to increase inflation, and the lower-income cohorts are doomed to bear the brunt of that inflation. So they are doubly hit, and any economist will tell you that.

[Hello_Kitty]

92. Damn straight!

Up until today I was willing to give the Democrats the benefit of the doubt. I thought maybe the bean counters who worked out this deal missed this unfair little "detail". I attributed Larry Summers' and Austan Goolsbee's dismissive attitude to their affluent cluelessness. I thought if we just told them about it they'd get to work correcting the disparity. I mean, sheesh, all they would have to do is reinstate a partial MWP credit or expand the EITC to make up the difference. But when the Dems in Congress chose to go after the estate tax provisions full throttle (lost cause) while ignoring the increase on the lowest wage workers I knew where my class stood.

[Caretha]

115. Thank you

for your post. I'm copying it if you don't mind and will print it out to give to the Repugs in my area that are sure to complain to me about the "Obama Tax Cuts" for the poor.

[davidthegnome]

142. Well said

You put it into words much better than I could have. Thank you for this post.

[kenny blankenship]

84. You had it easy for too long

BTW: President Obama wants to have a "conversation" with you about Social Security.

[hay rick]

91. Actually, the conversation will proceed quite nicely

WITHOUT you if the "bipartisan" commission is any indication.

[defendandprotect]

101. Evidently, that got ZIP attention .... !!!

[Tsiyu]

105. I am right there with you

and from where I sit, it is heartbreaking.


I don't quite understand it and I'm trying to make sense of it.


I feel numb from the struggle...so I suppose what's another punch in the gut?

[Kalyke]

106. I just posted this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x32020

It may not be much, but as a Tennessean, I'd love to give to an Alabamian. Do you or yours need something? It's not much, but I'd love to help a 'Bama liberal. My non-voting father and liberal step-mother live outside of Huntsville. I spent my summers at Space Camp before it was called that. :hi:

[taught_me_patience]

109. Wait until you get hit by the coming inflation

the cruelest of all taxes.

[femrap]

122. You said a mouthful there!!!

Last month Food Prices were up 1%....that's 12% annualized. And it's going up from here. All the rich folks are investing in Commodities...foodstuffs, oil, etc. I think they want to starve us.

[Donnachaidh]

110. I'll bet lots of folks barely making it are going to be unpleasantly surprised

But hey -- Paris Hilton can still afford her pets and cars -- that's what counts, isn't it? :sarcasm:

[katnapped]

114. Need to just suck it up

And clap louder

That's what people here have said...

[Donnachaidh]

138. yeah, surprising that sort of attitude when so many here claim to be progressive

Lots and lots of hypocrisy, especially when it comes to the subject of the working class poor. It's appalling to see how quickly those who cannot fight back are being literally left behind.

[blindpig]

112. Divide and conquer, devil take the hindmost.

This is how they play us, with the most powerless getting the shaft.

Solidarity.

[femrap]

116. That Tax Bill was

out-and-out CRUEL! There's just no other way to define it.

The Rich will live to endure their comeuppance.

edited for spelling.

[DFW]

123. The stupid thing is: he's NOT raising my taxes.

I make a comfortable six-figure salary, and now that my girls are out of college, I no longer
have to watch every euro. I can afford to go back to the rate of the Clinton years. If I can,
then so can any clown who makes five (let alone five hundred) times what I do.

This is ridiculous. I don't drive a Mercedes or a Maserati, so I think I will calculate how
much more I should have paid in taxes next year, and, after helping one of my daughters, who
makes slave wages at her job in the States (the other is doing fine in Germany), donate it to
cancer research (my wife is a cancer survivor, and both my parents and ALL of their siblings
had it, so I'm a cinch to get it sooner or later), Bobby Kennedy's environmental thing, NPR
in Dallas, WOMR in Provincetown, and Howard's DFA.

[judesedit]

126. What are you talking about??? You're paying less taxes than in decades & Obama just signed a less

than ideal bill to ensure your taxes would be cut even more next year. Stop watching FAUX "news". Go to factcheck.org and read up on the facts, so you don't keep voting against yourself.

[judesedit]

134. And the wealthy are paying WAY less. Why do you think we have this huge shortfall?

Much of it's due to the fact the rich are not paying their fair share of taxes, so we have to borrow money from other countries just to keep going. And if that's not bad enough...the fatcats are taking their companies off shore to avoid paying and transferring their money from U.S. banks to foreign banks so their real value can't be evaluated. So then they pay even less tax than they really owe this country for making them fat. They have all the perks on top of it. To make things really fair it should be a flat rate tax the same for everyone. I hate to tell you, but this whole country just got royally screwed the last election. And you can thank SCOTUS for that. Now corporations, foreign and domestic can donate to campaigns as much as they want and they don't have to disclose it. I wonder who they're giving to???? Wake up people. Prepare for real poverty. Of course we can all pray for divine intervention.

[judesedit]

135. One more thing...without the tax cuts, 23 million jobs were created...WITH the tax cuts only 3

million were created... and 750,000 jobs went bye bye the last 7 months of 2008. The GOP's been blowing smoke up your asses for 10 years now....when are you going to learn? They create nothing but misery and havoc for 98% of us. And now you have a front row seat....AGAIN!!!!

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[obxhead]

136. I hope you have some evidence that the poster is a liar.

Otherwise you are simply a rule violator.

[quickesst]

130. It' a shame..

...that the smart people left DU several years ago mostly in disgust of the ignorance and blind faith displayed here. Probably could have gotten some actual good replies to the op. Most here wanted what we have now, or thought they were getting what they wanted. Now that you have it, live with it. Thanks.
quickesst

[obxhead]

137. but, but, but..... PONY!

No wait, don't be such a PURIST! That's the new line.

I'm sorry. I'm at the bottom suffering with you.

[alarimer]

140. Yep.

AND your 2% payroll tax cut will be also be taxable. So whatever that amount is for people is now subject to withholding, which will vary. For me I will see a cut of about $60 a month, before taxes. Withholding will reduce that amount to probably around $40, big fucking deal. Certainly I will not be running off to buy a Mercedes. I will be putting that money in some kind of interest bearing account, which is not a stimulus to the economy and I hope everybody uses that money in a similar way because they will need it if they ever get to retire. And, of course, this deal puts all of SS at risk. It is Obama's back door deal to reducing SS benefits.

This guy is a menace who should never have been elected President. He is killing the middle class and working class.

[midnight]

141. K&R Between this tax burden on the lowest earners in the

country, unaffordable access to health care, jobless recovery, this country has shifted it's obsession of feeling safe and rich on those who can least afford it.

[TheWebHead]

143. if you're barely above the poverty line

you pay no federal income tax because of the standard deduction. You're getting less free government money in a tax refund check, which is basically what happened with about everyone during the Bush era when the government stopped sending out those tax rebate stimulus checks everyone got whether they paid any net taxes or not.

[Hello_Kitty]

145. Wrong. I'm under the poverty line and will owe taxes.

You have to be a parent to get most of the tax breaks available to the poor. But nice try and good job pushing the Welfare Queen meme.

[katnapped]

147. Nope

Wrong, but thanks for playing

[Exilednight]

148. You seem to be misinformed about our tax code. n/t

[katnapped]

149. Heard it from Rush first-hand, no doubt n/t

[Brookyn_Queen]

178. That is not true

The standard deduction for 2009 for a single person under 65 was 5700 dollars. As the poverty line for an individual under 65 is $11,161 the person would be accountable for taxes on the difference less any credits and whatever. It's possible with credits that said person may pay no taxes but it is not true that the standard deduction would keep someone who is just above the poverty line from paying taxes at all. That is just false.

[davidthegnome]

144. There were republicans who

during the Bush Presidency, realized what a moron he was and what his administration was doing to this Country. Many of them chose to tow the party line all the same. I must admit I did not expect to see that from democrats on DU. My own Father who's views I normally have a great deal of respect for continues to make up excuses as to why the President cannot get anything progressive accomplished.

What the GOP did was basically hold hostage the unemployed in order to force Obama into a compromise. It was a bluff, however - and one he could have called. Had he stood from the beginning to fight this issue as Sanders did - had he fought back rather than making this deal his own and calling it a triumph, I might have retained some respect for the man. There is no excuse, none, what so ever, for giving further tax cuts to the rich while the poor are suffering so much. The focus should have been there - ESPECIALLY from the man who once spoke of the "Audacity of Hope."

Instead he folded, he went over to the other side in a ridiculous attempt to claim successful bipartisan efforts and perhaps convince a handful of people that the government is actually "working together for their benefit". Though I suppose that is actually true, for those who are already wealthy.

He has not fought for democratic principles, he has shunned progressives while befriending those who would continue to fill their own pockets, the greedy and ambitious. This man has proven far more a friend to the haves and have mores than I ever suspected he would.

In closing - allow me to point out for those who may have missed it... Obama IS raising taxes for the poor, not because of a specific action on his part, but because of his INACTION. His inability and lack of the will to fight for them is precisely what makes these "give to the rich, ignore the poor" policies possible. The true shame, is that he had the ability to accomplish far more than he did, he had the ability to give us hope and to create change. He decided not to make use of it.

[Starry Messenger]

146. +1

[DeSwiss]

155. Exactly!

There's only two ways this works out:

(1) Either he's a cunningly brilliant Republican in-disguise, or
(2) He's an incompetent buffoon.

- But remember, even W had his 20%ers who stood by him no matter what he did.....

[shireen]

157. people disagreeing with the OP are MISSING THE POINT

This is about what was left out of the tax cut compromise. Did anyone consider the impact of letting "Making Work Pay" expire for people living in or near poverty? Did anyone run the numbers for people making less than $40k? NO. They were too busy dealing with the middle class and rich.

This is the fact: people earning the lowest incomes, the people near or at the poverty line, were NEVER a part of the equations in this grand tax compromise. Republicans and Democrats involved in the negotiations, lead by Pres. Obama, completely ignored them.

Hello Kitty provided a link to a page with some teiing numbers. Go look at the last two columns,
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?...

[TwilightGardener]

162. It was left out because Republicans wouldn't support it. If you want to blame

Republicans for not renewing the tax credit, go right ahead. If you want to blame Obama because he gave everyone a ONE-TIME stimulus credit that he wasn't able to keep renewing (DAMN HIM, HOW DARE HE???), go ahead. But don't make the dishonest charge that Obama is raising taxes on anybody through this bill. The lowest earners are better off with this bill than without it.

[Hello_Kitty]

171. Not according to Larry Summers, as I already pointed out upthread.

Senior White House adviser Larry Summers told reporters on Wednesday that the GOP wanted to replace Making Work Pay with the payroll cut. "It came out of the process of compromise with the Republicans who were more attracted to the payroll tax holiday concept, and that was a proposal that, as had been coming out of here, we had been giving considerable thought to in the context of the President's budget," he said.

Emphasis mine. Both the GOP and the administration wanted this.

[ProudDad]

174. Yeah, typical larry summers shit...

Let's fuck the old people to pit them against the younger poor...

As Ollie North said, "It was a sweet deal."

[TwilightGardener]

177. Yeah...we covered this already. It doesn't prove that Obama raised anyone's taxes in this bill.

[BlueIris]

166. Thanks. nt

[johnaries]

163. Uh, no - he kept your taxes from going up.

He extended the tax cuts and the EIC. He replaced the Make Work Pay cut with a Payroll Tax cut that will be more of a benefit to many.

Beware of analyses that use convoluted logic - they often have an ulterior motive.

[ProudDad]

170. That horrible conflation of Social Security funding

with General Fund obligations...

Misnamed a "payroll tax cut"...

Is the beginning of the END of Social Security...

And it took another "triangulator" to do it...

McCain would NOT have been allowed to do it...

[Hello_Kitty]

172. "Shut up, paupers, it could have been WORSE!"

:eyes:

[brentspeak]

182. Interesting logic. How did Obama keep the OP's taxes from going up if they're actually going up?

If the OP's yearly income doesn't exceed $20,000 AND he/she doesn't http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=150513,00.html">qualify for the EITC, then they will be paying more in federal income taxes this year than they did last year:

http://blogs.forbes.com/beltway/2010/12/09/the-obama-gop-deal-a-tax-hike-for-the-working-poor/

The math works this way: The MWP credit gave as much as $400 to each single worker and up to $800 to couples. If you’re single and earned at least $6,452 (and less than $75,000) in 2010, you got $400. Married couples with earnings over $12,903 (and less than $150,000) got $800.

But you won’t get $400 from the payroll tax cut until your earnings reach $20,000; earnings have to be twice that high to yield the $800 that MWP gave to couples. So single taxpayers who earn less than $20,000 and married couples earning less than $40,000 will pay more in taxes under the payroll tax cut than under MWP (see graph). Like everyone else, those folks will keep their Bush-era tax cuts and everything else that would continue from 2010 into 2011. But because no other provisions would cut their 2011 taxes relative to 2010, those taxpayers are unequivocally worse off under the compromise in 2011 than under the tax law we have this year.

Of the two posts -- the OP's and yours' -- I see only one which employs "convoluted logic".

[maryf]

164. K&Rnt

[killbotfactory]

180. Start unionizing

That's the only cure to low wages.

[unkachuck]

183. kick....n/t

[Cowpunk]

186. Thr working poor are no longer considered human beings in Washington D.C.

That's the only way I can explain the fact that so many politicians say they support this tax package because they "don't want to see anyone's taxes raised".