Guy on MSNBC just said "People ask why can't it happen here? The people in

[gateley]

Egypt were unemployed, sitting around the cafes with nothing to do but become more and more frustrated." I may be making it sound more harsh than he said/implied, but it just kind of irked me. Does he think we're all happy employed in the USA with no concerns about paying for food, shelter and providing for our families?

IMO, we're not too far away, but I may just be too immersed in the half-empty glass. :shrug:

[katnapped]

1. According to other DUers

Even the homeless living in cardboard boxes here and scrounging for food from dumpsters are living "high on the hog" compared to those over there.

[cali]

11. oh bullshit. no has said that. what people have said

is that the degree of poverty there is far worse than here. And that is simply a fact- something you don't seem to partial to.

[Starry Messenger]

18. Yep, seen it here all day. nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. You had a U3 and a U6 in the Great Depression...

....twice what they are today, at an absolute minimum, and still no violence to speak of, not in a country this size.

The degree of immiseration needed for a revolution is far, far beyond anything this country's ever seen.

Even the original American Revolution was a bourgeois revolution, not a revolution in the French-Russian-Chinese sense.

[kentuck]

4. The New Deal was mostly in response to these conditions...

and the growing socialist and labor movement in this country.

[Davis_X_Machina]

9. What you got...

...though, with the New Deal, was most assuredly not a revolution.

No one woke up to discover heads on pikes, barricades in the streets, and a declaration out of a provisional government in Washington that -- take your pick -- Property was now Theft, or The Jews Did It.

[kentuck]

35. True.

But for America, it was revolutionary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. That is because that was a PEACEFUL revolution

not all revolutions involve pikes and heads on them.

[Davis_X_Machina]

41. If they don't...

...they're not revolutions. Otherwise the term has no meaning.

France, 1792, a revolution. Russia, 1917, a revolution. US, 1933-38, not a revolution.

Not a knock on us, though. Revolutions are decidedly not-good things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Yes, yes they are

some non violent revolutions that are called that way...

Industrial Revolution

Scientific Revolution.

Historians use the term to mean massive social change... the New Deal qualifies as that.

The reason for the New Deal was partly to PREVENT the Reds taking over... that would have qualified in your definition, which is very narrow.

Oh and all revolutions do have winners and losers... just that the non violent ones are less obvious.

Welcome to the debate that now rages

Scholarly debates about what does and does not constitute a revolution center around several issues. Early studies of revolutions primarily analyzed events in European history from a psychological perspective, but more modern examinations include global events and incorporate perspectives from several social sciences, including sociology and political science. Several generations of scholarly thought on revolutions have generated many competing theories and contributed much to the current understanding of this complex phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution

[barbiegeek]

45. Have we forgotten Ghandi & India's peaceful revolution

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. DUH... you are right

Or Mandela in South Africa... was a little less peaceful but I would not say Apartheid SA and modern SA have anything in common... beyond the name.

[DearAbby]

31. Maybe you need to read more about the great Depression

how people rioted at factories, and how people were chased from town to town. It wasn't a bed of roses during the depression, people didn't always fill your plate and sing Jesus loves me...

[Davis_X_Machina]

37. But people didn't...

...hang factory owners from lampposts, or shoot their way into grocery stores to get food, or lay waste blocks of cities in protest. We went into the Great Depression a capitalist state and came out of it the same way, with nearly all the same firms making up the Dow 30 before and after, because there was still an NYSE, under the same Constitution, the same government, even the same President.

The Great Depression in this country did not spawn a revolution -- unless you consider the New Deal one, and if you do, you've got a pretty low threshsold for what comprises revolution.

[Doremus]

36. Got a link to those stats (U3 and U6)?

Thanks!

[Davis_X_Machina]

39. I usually get U6

...here and U3, because I like their graphics -- the actual data's from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Best data on the Great Depression has U3 around 25%, and U6 around 39%.

[Angry Dragon]

3. The mind set of the elites is pretty obvious

When Obama claims that gibbs is only earning a modest salary of $172,000
and he understands why he wants to leave and earn more money
They have no idea what an average American is

[jus_the_facts]

30. Thank You!

[MineralMan]

5. I don't see unrest in any kind of percentages that would create

a situation as in Egypt. Yes, there are a lot of people who are not doing well here, but I'm not seeing the type of unrest that would lead to any sort of mass action. There are small groups who talk about it and sort of threaten it, but when they actually turn out for some sort of demonstration, it's pretty unimpressive in numbers.

Unless you've lived in a country where poverty really means struggling to survive, it's hard to comprehend just how bad the poor in some countries have it. Here, we have some resources for the destitute, from homeless shelters to institutions like public libraries where people can escape from the cold. We have food banks and all sorts of other institutions to help those who have almost nothing survive.

I lived in Turkey for a year and a quarter, back in the 1960s, and became aware of what real poverty was. It's not the same thing as poverty here. Not at all. At least not yet.

[tblue37]

33. Also, the so-called middle class in many of those

countries--the educated and ambitious people--are also st uckin poverty, with little hope of ever doing any better. no matter how hard they work. Our "middle class" is disappearing, and most who work have become working class, not middle class--on the edge of disaster in many cases--but we still do have enough people employed that don't want to rock the boat too hard just yet.

[OneGrassRoot]

6. Median age is 24 in Egypt...

Median age here is 37.

I really think that is a significant factor.

I don't really grasp the discussion about living conditions here versus living conditions elsewhere.

There are many persons in the US who are homeless, truly with no shelter whatsoever; many others realizing that they're rapidly approaching the same. Worry about how to feed themselves and their families, while they witness a large portion of the populace idolizing the Kardashians and that lavish lifestyle.

Perhaps it's the age of those suffering these conditions the most. I don't know. But, suffering is suffering and extreme wealth inequality is extreme wealth inequality. Even if the wealthy here can't be compared to the wealthy in other countries -- and the same with our poor -- the contrast within this country is what we know, and what is being experienced.

What about the student protests in the UK? That could certainly happen here.

:shrug:

[gateley]

14. Agree that the comparisons don't help those experiencing the pain here.

Even if the level of despair is nowhere near what it is in other countries, that doesn't diminish the despair people are feeling HERE.

I don't think this might happen next weekend by any means, but if the wealthy continue to get more and more, the average Joe gets less and less, and people become desperate to provide for their families to even EAT, I can certainly see it happening. What else can they/we do? Nothing seems to "work", nothing seems to "help" and you just reach a breaking point.

[phleshdef]

34. We can acknowledge that the severity of their poverty is beyond the severity of ours....

...without taking away from the fact that the experience of poverty is a severe experience, regardless of the magnitude.

Yes, we are much better off than countries like that in so many ways. We can recognize that and still strongly desire to fight our own problems with all the passion that we got.

[Lint Head]

7. It can happen if we can do without American Idol for a while.

Ohio
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x88hm_neil-young-ohio_music

For What it's Worth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M_Ttstbgs

[Vegas_Baby]

49. Yeah, because only Americans have those "idol" shows,..not

I can't claim to know what's on television in the middle east,

but there are replicas of "Idol" shows all OVER Europe..."Britain's got Talent", Croatia Does Too, etc.

[Drale]

8. Anyone know what the unemployment rate in Egypt is?

Because while its 10% here and thats a large unemployment rate, it is much high in other parts of the world.

[Davis_X_Machina]

10. 40% is pretty typical right across the Maghreb...

...though official statistics aren't remotely that bad, somehow.

BBC did a wonderful series "Young in the Arab World" back in '05 -- well worth a click..

[ananda]

12. The unemployment rate in Egypt is very high...

... and the living conditions for the poor are abominable.

Two thirds of the population is under the age of 25, and that
unemployment rate is 40%.

[ipaint]

13. I wonder if they leave out of the official # over half the unemployed like we do. nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

15. They're not left out...

...so much as they are the difference between U3 and U6. Traditionally U3's been the official official rate, used for things like Humphrey-Hawkins, and longitudinal studies, etc. because it's the oldest, and lends itself to apples-to-apples comparisons.

U6 is hardly a secret -- most people who care about such things keep an eye on, and report, U6, for example, Paul Krugman.

[lonestarnot]

21. U3 and U6 wow, didn't know of these measurements until you posted. Thanks.

[Davis_X_Machina]

23. Watch U6...

...it'll a.) give you a feel for what the real job scene is like and b.) let you toss stats around like a pro -- all you need then is the wall-eye, and tenure at Princeton, and you too can have a column in the Times. :-)

[lonestarnot]

26. I'll be foregoing b.

Thanks though. :D

[ipaint]

29. Yes and when they start reporting the U6 as the official # we might be getting somewhere. nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

38. The reason why it's not used...

...as 'the unemployment rate' has as much to do with things like having a harmonized unemployment rate in all OECD countries for reporting purposes, or because the unemployment rate that releases federal assistance to state UI systems is stated in U3 terms as any vast conspiracy to keep the people uninformed.

At the end of the day, the unemployed know who they are, and the still-employed know who's sleeping on their couched.

How it's reported doesn't matter.

[ipaint]

43. Baloney. And the only person talking conspiracies is you.

If the OECD countries and their global capitalists need a number then corporate news can report it as such. A number for the elite to ponder dispassionately from afar.

Then report the actual human number to real people, the workers, who are doing the suffering. Individually knowing your unemployed or helping someone else that is does nothing to increase the collective awareness of the extent of the problem and the horrible job governments are doing to address it.

[Hydra]

25. 10% is the lowest of lowballs

But thanks for highlighting the problem- we here in America simply don't see how bad the problem is and is becoming.

We even call it a "recession" and call it a "jobless recovery" when the biggest source of income in America right now is the Treasury via bailouts.

The lack of truth does wonders for keeping things "peaceful"

[Imagevision]

16. if it happened in the US. do you think the M$M would report on it(?)

[gateley]

17. There's always Al Jazerra. :-) nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

20. If it happened, they couldn't...

...they'd have been burnt down early on.

That's the difference between a revolution and street protests.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kudzu22]

22. We haven't had the same President for 31 years.

There's always hope just around the corner.

[TheKentuckian]

48. Wrong!

Reagan has been President for such a length, regardless of what guises and parties he has inhabited.

[Ozymanithrax]

24. One neighbor is mowing his lawn, and the other is having a party.

I live on a suburban street lined with pastel houses. There is some unemployment, a few people were forced to sell. But, the majority are content to live their lives.

Will there be Watts style riots among the poor. Possibly, but the middle class are still content as cows who have not yet glimpsed the truck that will take them to the slaughter house.

The U.S.A needs to go a lot lower on the misery index before something like Egypt happens here. Bread and circuses are keeping the citizens quiet.

[lonestarnot]

27. It is very strange isn't it.

[Hydra]

28. That's really the issue, IMO

The willful blindness. Probably the hallmark of the Middle Class.

I was raised by middle class grandparents. They should have been Dems to the bone, but they got swept up by the red scare and women's lib. A bad dose of church added to that made them "Reagan Democrats."

My mother, on the other hand, was a single mother and teacher. Without the wealth to protect from reality, I got a better education on how things worked when I lived with her later.

The middle class likes to believe in their "rights." As you say, they'll keep believing that until they're in the slaughterhouse.

[phleshdef]

32. The condition of our society and economy and government is thousands of times beyond theirs.

We may have our problems, but the reality is, America has done a very good job at evolving into a civilized, democratic nation with an advanced society. We often spend our time measuring our condition against "what perfection would be like" and not nearly enough time appreciation what our condition is compared to complete defection.

[ipaint]

44. I know, I appreciate the increasing homelessness and poverty especially among the

elderly and children everyday. The growing number of long term unemployed and the dismal job market predicted to last for years just makes my heart sing. And the food banks running out of food and the emergency rental assistance being depleted the first week of every month is just fantastic.

I can't wait for the cut to food stamps, Oh and that last tax increase on the working poor was a godsend.

So fucking civilized.

[BzaDem]

46. Because we have an alternate means of picking our leaders, perhaps? n/t