President Obama pulls away from Mubarak

[Tx4obama]

The Obama administration Saturday continued inching away from the besieged government of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak as observers in Washington and Cairo began to conclude that the autocrat has little chance of restoring his authority.

Full article here: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/48412.html



Aaron David Miller: The Obama administration has played a terrible hand pretty well so far. The president didn't create the conundrum he now faces: How to deal with a regime that has lost its legitimacy and may not be able to maintain control but who's also a key ally in a region where America has critical interests. .... http://www.politico.com/arena/

[Ken Burch]

1. So...did he PULL away, or did he INCH away?

There's a difference.

[ashling]

2. Pulled away by inches

:shrug:

[Radical Activist]

3. Or did he actively encourage the opposition

with his comments in support of Tunisia during the State of the Union address? Isn't it great to have a sincere ally for human rights and democracy in the White House?

Axelrod: President Obama Has “On Several Occasions Directly Confronted” Mubarak on Human Rights for the Past 2 Years
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/01/axelrod-president-obama-has-on-several-occasions-directly-confronted-mubarak-on-human-rights-for-the.html

[sabrina 1]

4. He gave him a few strongly worded lectures, and then sent him

his yearly checks.

This was a moment when the whole world was waiting to see a firm statement of rejection of the brutality of an infamous dictator against his own people over three decades. A corrupt, brutal, narcissistic, criminal who has tortured and oppressed and literally destroyed the people of Egypt.

Had this president given the speech the world was waiting to hear, he would have ended terrorism against the U.S., and re-gained the respect and trust this country has lost over the past several decades because of our support for these brutal dictators.

His words always sound wonderful but people are beginning to realize, and you can read it in the news media from every part of the world, that words don't mean anything if they not are accompanied by decisive action.

His speech was received around the world with great disappointment. The U.S. likes its dictators. The Egyptian people are not concerned about what the U.S. thinks, they were partners with the man who destroyed their nation. And after the people prevail, it will be too late and will be seen as the Obama administration having to accept the inevitable, but only because they could not stop it.

In fact it is already too late.

[Radical Activist]

7. 85%-95% liked his speech

so it must be what people wanted to hear. It may not be what YOU want to hear but you aren't the world.

Words mean a great deal when the President of the world's most powerful nation actively encourages democratic revolt against dictatorship. I'm happy to see that Obama did his part to embolden the revolt in Egypt by showing his support for Tunisia during the SOTU.

[dipsydoodle]

8. 85%-95%

of Egyptians ?

[Radical Activist]

20. OK. Post a poll of Egyptian reaction to the SOTU.

Oh, that poll probably isn't going to happen. I'm happy to see some solid evidence but for now I think the claim that the speech was unpopular around the world is something sabrina pulled out of her ass. No evidence has been presented.

[sabrina 1]

9. You mean in the U.S.

Not so much in the rest of the world. 'Very disappointing' was the general consensus and it's easy to understand why.

The people of Egypt have expressed their disappointment. I guess you haven't been following events there. And they have asked that the U.S. 'leave us alone' This is a people's movement and they will decide their own fate. At least they know that the people of the world are standing with them, even if the Western Govts are not.

In Egypt right now, Obama has become irrelevant. Try to keep up with things outside the bubble that is America. We are beginning to look like a dinosaur as the world moves forward while we continue the old, failed Cold War policies of supporting every dictator we can find.

Btw, has Obama said anything to Karamov of Uzbekistan about his brutality towards his own people yet? Or does he have to slaughter people with the cameras on recording it before anything is said?

Why did Obama wait until now to speak publicly about conditions in Egypt? It's not as if they just started this past week ~

And looking at the Egypt Cables released by Wikeleaks, it doesn't look like Mubarak is worth the money we have sending him every year. You'd think we'd have cut him off a long time ago now that we know so much more about our relationship with that particular dictator.

[Radical Activist]

13. And yet you still provide no evidence

that the rest of the world shares your disappointment in Obama's speech. Wanting it to be true doesn't make it so.

You wrote: "The people of Egypt have expressed their disappointment."

What is that supposed to mean? People are rioting because they didn't like the SOTU? WTF? LOL

It's not that hard to figure out. Obama encouraged democratic revolutions like the one in Tunisia. The people of Egypt are capable of figuring out that Obama was talking about them even if you can't.

I posted a link showing that Obama pressured Mubarak before and now you complain that he should have done it publicly. That's called moving the goal posts. You're trying too hard.

This could be the first State of the Union address in American history that helped to egg on a democratic revolution. Why do you hate good news?

[sabrina 1]

23. Instead of worrying about what the U.S. government

does or doesn't do, you could save yourself from all that typing by just reading what the Egyptian people themselves had to say about the speech given by Obama.

I COULD post link after link, but here's one. You are free to do some research on your own, or not.

Mohammed El-Baradei: Mubarak Must Go, U.S. Is Disappointing Egyptians

“We are very disillusioned by President Obama’s speech,” said Muhammad Shafai, 35, a lawyer, who called for Mr. Obama to distance himself from Mr. Mubarak.

El-Baradei echoed this sentiment in his interview:

“What is … very disappointing to the Egyptian people is the message coming from the U.S., which is saying that we are going to work with the Egyptian people and with the government,” he said. “Well, you have to make a choice. This is an authoritarian government and on the other hand the people have been deprived of their freedom for 58 years

More:

Egyptians Upset With U.S. Response To Crisis

In the streets of Cairo, many protesters are now openly denouncing the United States for supporting President Hosni Mubarak, saying the price has been their freedom. They say the Obama administration has offered only tepid criticism of a regime that has received billions of dollars in U.S. aid.

As I noted yesterday, Mohammed el-Baradei, who seems to be emerging as a rallying point for the protesters, criticized the U.S. response to the crisis. In an interview on ABC’s This Week today, he repeated that sentiment:

Mohamed ElBaradei, the former head of the International Atomic Enegry Agency and a 2006 Nobel Peace Prize recipient, told ABC’s “This Week” that the people were expecting the U.S. to be on the side of democracy and “let go of a dictator.”

“He’s also saying, I look to the government, you know, i.e., Mubarak, you know, to implement democracy,” ElBaradei said of President Obama’s call for reforms and protecting the rights of the people.

“I mean, to ask a dictator to implement democratic measure after 30 years in power is an oxymoron,” he said. “So they need to let go of Mubarak. They need to side with the people. They need to go for, you know, transition, smooth transition, through a government of national salvation. This is only way out.”

Feel free to keep denying the reality of the situation, that's up to you. But denials of reality don't change that reaility.

As Elbaradei says, 'they need to let go of the dictator' and so far, that hasn't happened. The world is wainting.

[Radical Activist]

28. Still no evidence to support your claim so basically you're full of shit.

We can both post anecdotal comments about the speech. That still doesn't support your claim of wide global disappointment in Obama's SOTU speech. Clearly, it's what you choose to believe because you want it to be true.

[sabrina 1]

37. More 'anecdotal' backup to my 'full of shit' claims:

Egyptian View of Obama and U.S. Low As The Streets Fill

According to the Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project, Obama has suffered a significant fall in Egyptian public opinion since his Cairo speech. Whereas 38 percent of Egyptian adults approved of Obama's International policies in 2009, only 17 percent approved a year later. (The 2009 poll was conducted between May 24 and June 11, 2009; Obama spoke in Cairo on June 4, 2009.) When asked if the U.S. will do the right thing in world affairs, 42 percent of Egyptians responded positively in 2009, while only 33 percent responded positively in 2010.

Notably, U.S. favorability in Egypt was lower in 2010 than in 2007 and 2008, the last two year of George W. Bush's presidency. Whereas, 22 percent of Egyptian adults had a favorable view of the U.S. in 2008, and 27 percent had a favorable view in 2009, only 17 percent had a favorable view in 2010. This coincided with deep drops in the national mood in Egypt. Only 10 percent of Egyptians called the current economic situation good in 2010, compared with 44 percent in 2008. Sixty-nine percent expressed dissatisfaction with the direction of the country in 2010, compared with 57 percent in 2008.

After widespread fraud was reported in the Egyptian parliamentary elections in November of 2010, along with clear examples of voter intimidation (including limits of SMS use), the U.S. State Department released a room temperature statement of disapproval, along with the typically discordant claim that "The United States has a longstanding partnership with the government. . . . We look forward to continuing to work with the Egyptian government and with Egypt's vibrant civil society to help them achieve their political, social, and economic aspirations."

So far, you have provided nothing other than your ranting opinions to back up your claims. How about providing some backup to show that Egyptians have not lost confidence in this administration?

Supporting dictators while their people suffer doesn't make you popular. As I said, and I can certainly post their own words from the source, the Embassy Egypt Cables prove that until the people took to the streets themselves, this administration was bending over backwards not to upset the dictator. He didn't want to hear about human rights violations, so, the U.S. obliged by 'toning down' its criticisms of the horrendously brutal human rights violations he was inflicting on his people.

If you are unable to back up your assertions with links to credible sources, don't waste any more time offering your unsubstantiated opinions.

[Radical Activist]

41. Your link isn't even about the SOTU. So basically you can't find anything to back up your claim

which you obviously just pulled out of your ass. I never claimed Egypt loved Obama. I'm not in the habit of making things up based on prejudices against Obama.

But since you asked.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/poll-egyptian-publics-views-toward-united-states-are-much-improved/?src=tptw

[sabrina 1]

43. Your poll ends in 2010

After Bush left nearly everyone's opinion of the U.S. improved. After Obama's Cairo speech people felt hopeful. The U.S. WAS viewed more favorably in Egypt after that speech. It's clear from the Embassy cables that this administration did plan to take a stand for human rights in Egypt, until they were told that by doing so they would jeopardize their relationship with Mubarak.

I am not influenced by political personalities as you appear to be. I supported Obama being that he was the only viable candidate who had not supported the Iraq War.

This is not about Obama, it is about U.S. policies towards other nations and the harm they have done to millions of people around the world. No individual politician is that important. Since last year this administration has lost support in Egypt and over the past several days of clinging to a relationship with a man who is clearly not wanted by his people, that support has sunk even lower.

Obama can change that. Actually the U.S. has no choice anymore. The people are in charge now, not just in Egypt but elsewhere where there are U.S. supported dictators also. Change is happening, but it didn't come from this administration and the people on the streets have made that point very clear.

I don't doubt that Obama wanted to stand with the people, he is a good human being. But he appears to be unable to take a firm stand on controversial issues when it is most needed, for whatever reason.

And all of this is irrelevant anyhow. Egyptians will now decide their own fate. The U.S. will try to influence them, to find a leader THEY can work with, and the people will reject anyone who in any way puts the needs of any other country before the needs of Egypt.

It's too bad that the U.S. did not take the lead in supporting the legitimate demands of the people. Trying to hang on to a dictator was a failed policy. Now, the matter is out of their hands and they will end up having to accept the will of the people. It would have been better to have done so to begin with. The writing was on the wall.

[Radical Activist]

48. 2010 ended a month ago! ZOMG! It means nothing! LOL

You claim to be about issues but it's very obvious that you have some deep biases about Obama. You know how I can tell? Because you keep changing your principles in order to make them conform to your disapproval of Obama. Your latest comment is a good example.

First, you're happy that Egypt and other nations will decide their own fate. Then you attack Obama for not interfering in support of the revolt. Well, which is it? You can't make up your mind whether America should interfere or not, but you're sure that Obama is wrong either way. Bizarre.

I know some people are trying really, really hard to imagine that Obama is doing everything in his power to keep Mubarak in power, but once again, I prefer to live in the real world. No one has produced meaningful evidence to support that claim.

[sabrina 1]

52. No, what is obvious is that I am a realist.

You otoh, are a loyalist. Which is fine, but it tends to blind people to reality. I provided you with the Pew Poll on Egypt which contradicts Silver's BBC poll, which is like taking a CBS poll of a few people in the street. That poll was from months ago. A lot has happened since then which informed the people of Egypt that the U.S was going to continue to support their dictator.

The U.S. was still supporting him as of a few days ago calling him a 'good friend and ally'. Which, btw he was not. He was proven to be a person who took financial support from the U.S. on the condition that he help broker a peace agreement in the ME. The cables show that he did no such thing. That he in fact did not want that to happen because if it did, according to the cables, his usefulness to the U.S. might end.

Dictators are a bit paranoid so it was not surprising to learn of his fears of being discarded. The cables show that the State Dept was aware that he was of little use in helping the U.S. solve the I/P situation.

No one is trying hard to 'imagine Obama is doing everything in his power to keep Mubarak in power'. They are trying hard to convince him to make up his mind and issue a straighforward statement one way or the other.

If he has made such a statement, then post it. That is what people are waiting to hear.

As late as yesterday, Hillary Clinton still would not utter the words that Mubarak must go. So you can rail all you like but no one has heard that all important statement as of the time I am writing this.

We did hear this president advise the Egyptian people to try to have a dialogue with the dictator whose security forces were at the time shooting them in the streets. That enraged the protesters as it should.

Try not to project your own problems with focusing only on individual politicians, either hating them or loving them, on others. Some of us can rise above that.

Obama is a politician. He is not my husband, brother, father or friend. I have no reason to rush to his defense unless he earns it. When he does something worthy of praise as a leader of this country, I will say so. I happen to find his position on this issue to be sadly weak. And I am not alone. Your childish assumptions are amusing to me and say more about you than you know.

[Radical Activist]

53. So you're back to arguing that Obama should interfere by issuing some kind of statement

even though you want the future to be determined by the people of Egypt. Again, please reconcile these two contradictory beliefs.

Calling me a loyalist is a cute argumentative tactic, but it doesn't conceal your logical inconsistencies.

You wrote: "As late as yesterday, Hillary Clinton still would not utter the words that Mubarak must go." But, isn't it up to the Egyptian people to decide that, not Clinton? Someone is playing a gotcha game by setting up a litmus test that you know will not (and should not) be met. I believe in their right and ability to choose their own leader without US interference. Isn't that a progressive value? It seems that YOU are the one abandoning progressive ideals when its convenient in attacking Obama.

[sabrina 1]

55. He IS interfering. Every time the U.S. sends a check to

Mubarak, they are interfering. Their interference is directly responsible for the plight of the Egyptian people. We pay for the arms that are used against them. We kept in power a corrupt, brutal government which, without our interference would have fallen long ago.

The U.S. now owes the Egyptian people the withdrawal of that support. And if they will not do that, then they should 'go away' as the protesters have requested. And let the people decide their own fate.

[Radical Activist]

18. And Obama did speak out publicly before.

Have you read Obama's 2009 speech given in Cairo? It may hurt you to admit this, but these are the sort of words that emboldened the democratic forces at work in Egypt today. This is what having a sincere ally in promoting peaceful democracy looks like. Here's what he said about democracy while IN EGYPT.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/04/obama-egypt-speech-video_n_211216.html


I know there has been controversy about the promotion of democracy in recent years, and much of this controversy is connected to the war in Iraq. So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other.

That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are not just American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will support them everywhere.

There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this much is clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more stable, successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments - provided they govern with respect for all their people.

This last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, government of the people and by the people sets a single standard for all who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not coercion; you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a spirit of tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your people and the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. Without these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy.

[FrenchieCat]

25. Here's a poll that backs up your notion that Obama has more to do with

current developments than some want to acknowledge for whatever their personal reasons.




Read more here: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/poll-egyptian-publics-views-toward-united-states-are-much-improved/?src=tptw

[sabrina 1]

26. Yes, I read that speech, listened to it at the time.

It was inspiring, a breath of fresh air after the Bush ramblings for so many years. And Muslims and Arabs heard it too, in fact they have been referring to it throughout these protests, wondering now why they had to take to the streets to stop the U.S. from supporting not just this dictator, but Ben Ali, Karamov and a whole host of other dictators around the world.

Words are great IF they are followed by action. These oppressed nations have heard all this before, but the U.S. continues to financially support the very people they claim to abhor.

Sorry, but we have lost the trust of the world on this issue. Anyone really listening to the people in Egypt would not be talking about dealing with Mubarak. He is a dictator. He only knows one way to deal with people who disagree with him.

I understand that it's possible Obama is not free to say what he really thinks, but that alone shows that something is very wrong with this country. The people elected HIM, not anyone else, to make decisions and it's becoming increasingly clear that there are other forces, unelected forces, at work behind this government, and the president appears to have little power to overrule them.

Either that, or he agrees with the Cold War policies of propping up dictators and destroying the lives of millions of innocent people for decades supposedly because that benefits US in some way? Well, I guess other sovereign nations are putting THEIR needs first as they should. They are not pawns to be played in some Global chess game, they are people whose lives are as important as the lives of people here or anywhere else.

[Radical Activist]

30. You write as though Obama is responsible for the past 30 years of US foreign policy.

He did not institute aid to Egypt and it's clear that the US under Obama did its part to facilitate change there without imposing its will on other nations.

You wrote: "Either that, or he agrees with the Cold War policies of propping up dictators and destroying the lives of millions of innocent people for decades supposedly because that benefits US in some way?"

Since Obama spoke out for democracy while IN EGYPT and has done nothing to help Mubarak maintain his power as the revolt continues one would have to be a delusional moron to reach that conclusion. To put things in perspective, what do you think Reagan or Nixon would be doing right now? Sitting back and letting democracy take its course? Fat fucking chance!
Maybe Obama doesn't speak out clearly because what happens in Egypt is up to the EGYPTIANS and not the United States. That used to be a liberal value, at least until bloggers with an axe to grind saw it as another opportunity to attack the great Satan Obama.

[sabrina 1]

39. I'm sorry, I'd like to believe what you are saying also. But the

Egypt Cables prove otherwise. They prove without a doubt that the U.S. under this administration decided to refrain from making too big a deal over the dictators brutal human rights abuses against his own people. They were advised that he did not want to hear about it. 'He is very conservative' the cable said before Mubarak's visit to the U.S. and gave advice on how best to keep his support. That advice included muting any criticisms of his brutal regime.

I do not blame Obama for the old Cold War policies, but he promised 'change' and for a short time people were hopeful. But not for long. It was clear after a short time, that nothing was going to change.

I have already posted links that show the almost total loss of faith in this administration by the Egyptian people. Obama's poll ratings in Egypt had already sunk to below Bush's before the people took to the streets.

As I said, maybe there is nothing he can do about it. But every time he talks about 'working with the Egyptian Govt.' it is a slap in the face to the people of that country. They do not want to work with a brutal dictator. I think they've made that clear. If he cannot do anything for some reason, if his power is that limited, then this country is the country we should be worried about.

[Radical Activist]

42. You're confused.

1) The suggestion a diplomat makes in a cable is not the same as an official policy action by Obama and it's misleading for you to suggest that.
2) His Cairo speech proves he did not remain silent about democracy or abuse of power. It's misleading for you to suggest otherwise.
3) The failure to actively overthrow Mubarak (invasion? how?) as you seem to think he should have cannot be equated with an effort to help him stay in power. It's misleading for you to equate the two. The difference is important.

And my reply to your other post shows what you wish to be true about Obama's popularity is not. Why is it so important for you to believe that the world hates Obama?

[sabrina 1]

49. Sorry to have to disappoint you again.

U.S. policy is to keep Mubarak in power. Even President Carter admits that:

Carter says 'people have decided' in Egypt: report

"The United States wants Mubarak to stay in power, but the people have decided," said the 86-year-old Carter, calling the unprecedented protests "earth shaking."

Earlier Sunday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for an "orderly transition" and "real democracy" in Egypt but stopped short of demanding Mubarak step down.

Sunday, that was yesterday. Still unwilling to withdraw support for the dictator.

Overthrow him? What are you talking about? There was no need to overthrow him. The people were doing a good job of that. The last elections in Egypt were so corrupt that he never should have been accepted as a legitimate leader by any Western nation.

However, once the people rose up against him, and considering all the evidence of corruption there is available on Mubarak's regime, all the U.S. had to do was to announce that since the people had spoken the U.S. would be withdrawing support, including financial support. That was the statement everyone was waiting for. It still has not happened.

As for your last hyperbolic and childish statement, all I can I do is point out the obvious, you project too much. I am not especially interested in defending politicians when they disappoint me. I can handle the disappointment. You otoh, have a difficult time facing the fact that politicians will disappoint us. Our job is not to defend THEM, it is to defend this country.

[Radical Activist]

51. Your spin is shameless.

Carter was obviously talking about US policy in a broader context, even as he said Mubarak would have to step down. Once again, that isn't evidence that Obama is actively working to keep him in power. It's grossly dishonest of you to repeatedly suggest that with no supporting evidence.

"orderly transition"

Transition: movement, passage, or change from one position, state, stage, subject, concept, etc., to another; change:

That's not a word one uses when they're suggesting that the same person should stay in power. You are being so fucking dishonest.

Once again, you can't make up your mind if Egypt should decide its future or if the US should intervene. Which is it? If Obama withdraws support from Mubarak more than he already has who do you suggest he recognize as the Egyptian head of state? Or does he have to continue waiting this out to see what the Egyptian people decide?

[sabrina 1]

54. January 29th!

TEXT-Obama urges Egypt's Mubarak to enact reforms

"When President Mubarak addressed the Egyptian people tonight, he pledged a better democracy and greater economic opportunity. I just spoke to him after his speech and I told him he has a responsibility to give meaning to those words, to take concrete steps and actions that deliver on that promise. Violence will not address the grievances of the Egyptian people and suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away.

"What's needed now are concrete steps that advance the rights of the Egyptian people, a meaningful dialogue between the government and its citizens and a path of political change that leads to a future of greater freedom and greater opportunity and justice for the Egyptian people.

Two days ago the President was asking the Egyptian people to have a dialogue with the government they had clearly stated they did not want. A government that was shooting them in the streets.

There was nothing in that speech that said to the people that the U.S. was looking toward a future without that government.

You clearly have not been reading my posts since I have said over and over again that Obama is a politician, that we are talking about U.S. Policy, NOT about a single politician. However, if the president does not have the power to change that policy when a crisis like this occurs, but instead must cling to it, then the best thing for them to do is to leave Egypt alone, as the people have now asked them to do. He admonished the people about violence, when the people had not engaged in any violence, and were unarmed against a powerful, armed and brutal regime.

It is a waste of time talking to you as your focus appears to be on one person. A person who is not all that important right now until he takes a firm stand. Is he on the side of the people or on the side of a corrupt, brutal regime. The people are important, it is their country, they are not pawns in U.S. geopolitical games anymore.

You are denying facts. The record speaks for itself.

[Edweird]

11. "No to Mubarak, no to Sulyman. Both are agents of the Americans"

[Radical Activist]

15. Irrelevant to the discussion.

[Edweird]

17. You wish.

[Radical Activist]

19. Fine. Explain yourself.

Can you form an argument beyond a single subject line?
Resentment against US foreign policy has built up over decades. Even Egyptians who like Obama don't want be governed by a dictatorial US puppet. To suggest that line being shouted is about Obama personally is idiotic and asinine.

[Edweird]

22. I am sorry, the man tells me, but I hate your president. What is this speech he gives?

Why can't he support us? He says we can have human rights but he gives us no political rights? To America, we are monkeys, monkeys, monkeys. We Egyptians don't deserve a constitution, don't deserve freedom, don't deserve democracy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x311737

[sendero]

12. +1000

... the Egyptian people know who their friends are and the US isn't one of them. Obama would have to do something really bold to counter that feeling, and bold's just not in him.

DC is shitting bricks, Israel is shitting bricks and they all damn well should be.

[Catherina]

24. [phone] n/t

[jonnyblitz]

5. LMFAO!! Axelrod? Now *there's* an unbiased source.

:rofl: Did you also get all your *accurate* info about Bush from Karl Rove?

Obama and Mubarak are BFF and the Egyptian protesters KNOW IT.

[Radical Activist]

6. Would you prefer fair and balanced Fox News?

Do you always discredit any information that comes from a Democrat? Is there any reason to assume that Axelrod is lying? It's amazing how much DU reminds me of arguing with talk radio conservatives. They use the same tactic to ignore facts they dislike.

[Buzz Clik]

10. That's a pretty extreme reaction. Comparing Axelrod to Rove? Are you kidding me?

Has DU become this level of cesspool?

Get a fucking grip.

[upi402]

16. I agree, reluctantly

I hope it's not just stepping out of the way of a runaway freight train. It may be a cynical political play. But I hope it's an ethical move.

Mubarak kept Islamic extremism at bay. He didn't scream, "death to Israel" all the damn time. And yet - Obama pulled his support and sided with the populist overthrow. I'm impressed, cautiously. Nice to have professional actors in the WH and Dept. of State instead of evil halfwits.

[Ken Burch]

21. He hasn't YET publicly said "Mubarak is on his own...WE won't save him".

n/t.

[malaise]

27. No but he sent someone to

help him pack.

[Catherina]

29. He will soon enough. .As soon as HM lands safely in Dubai n/t

[Renew Deal]

40. Of course there is

:rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

14. That OP title gave me a visual I didn't need. -nt

[hulka38]

31. Obama blew his, "Mr. Mubarak, tear down this wall" moment.

That Mubarak built his wall with U.S. $ and weapons has a lot to do with it.

[Radical Activist]

32. I guess you didn't hear the state of the union or his 09 speech in Egypt.

Those were his "tear down this wall" moments and they helped lead to what's happening today.

[hulka38]

33. I read the Cairo speech and heard both.

At some point you have to walk the walk.

[Radical Activist]

34. Oh, so using the bully pulpit is important. Until he does and then it doesn't matter anymore.

Yeah, I've heard this routine before.

[hulka38]

35. This is the time.

What he says now or rather said a few days ago as this revolt became serious and real is the critical thing. Timing is everything. The people of Egypt and the ME and the rest of the World were watching and waiting to see whether the U.S. would choose its self interests over its professed ideals. By backing Mubarak remaining in power, it chose the former.

[Radical Activist]

36. The US is staying out of it.

Liberals have been wanting the US to stay out of democratic revolutions for decades. At least until Obama did it and now that's suddenly bad. That's hypocrisy. It's interesting that some people on the internets have imagined that Obama is helping Mubarak stay in power but I prefer living in the real world.

[hulka38]

38. Really?

Obama got off the phone with Mubarak Friday night and then issued a statement saying that Mubarak should stay in power and issue reforms. Thursday Biden said that Mubarak should not step down. How much more into it could they be?

[Radical Activist]

44. Some creative people with an axe to grind chose to interpret statements

as helping Mubarak stay in power. In fact, Obama has repeatedly encouraged Mubarak to usher in democracy and has done nothing to help him stay in power. That's exactly what he should do. It's not America's job to stick our nose in.

And no, you won't find a quote from Obama which says Mubarak "should" stay in power. That's spin.

[sabrina 1]

56. How would you interpret this statement from the VP?

'No, I would not call Mubarak a Dictator'??

How did the people of Egypt interpret it?

I'll give you credit for one thing though, caring so much about one man when the fate of tens of millions of people is at stake, their very lives, and working so hard on behalf of a man whose life will be privileged for as long as he lives, never will he face the threats to himself and his family that those tens of millions of people face every day, yet HE is the focus of your passion right now. Your creative attempts to credit him with being responsible for the uprising in Tunisia and Egypt are disturbing and insulting actually.

The man who inspired the revolution in Tunisia is dead. Despair and anger at what he and his fellow citizens have been subjected to for so long finally caused him to make the ultimate sacrifice. He set himself on fire in front of a Government Bldg after one too many incidents of harassment from the brutal thugs of another one of our Dictator friends' regimes.

Words from a foreign leader had NOTHING to do with the Tunisian Revolution. You insult the memory of that hero who inspired not only the Jasmine Revolution in Tunisia, but the Revolution in Egypt also.

To try to connect a speech from a U.S. president whose government was actively supporting both dictators even as he gave the speech, to the revolutions in those two countries is the ultimate insult to them. They were on their own and they knew it. But the suicide of that brave man was the final straw and I doubt he or they gave a single thought to the words, especially since they were not backed by action, of a foreign leader so far removed from their lives.

[hulka38]

57. Here's where the administration was a few days ago

when the outcome of the revolt against Mubarak was unknown.

JIM LEHRER: Has the time come for President Mubarak of Egypt to go, to stand aside?

JOE BIDEN: No, I think the time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction that -- to be more responsive to some of the needs of the people out there...

My interpretation is that the VP is saying:
1. Mubarak should not stand aside/step down.
2. That he should remain in power for the time being and implement reforms for the people.

How else can this reasonably be interpreted? That was Thursday, one day before the President spoke to Mubarak and then released his statement. Here's the relevant part:

"When President Mubarak addressed the Egyptian people tonight, he pledged a better democracy and greater economic opportunity. I just spoke to him after his speech. And I told him he has a responsibility to give meaning to those words, to take concrete steps and actions that deliver on that promise."

Now, did Obama say explicitly, "I demanded Mubarak to step down!" Of course not. He'd be a complete moron to be that overt about it and as we all know he's very smart and has a team of very smart people to help him. They carefully crafted a statement. Implicit in the statement is that Mubarak would remain and implement all the reforms that were mentioned. After all, how could Mubarak make reforms if he was no longer in power?

There is no space in between the VPs or the President's comments. That also makes sense because I didn't hear Biden or anyone from the administration correct what Biden said on Thursday.

[EFerrari]

45. No, we aren't staying out of it.

[Radical Activist]

46. OMG Proof! Also, China is organizing toy collections across America!

We know its true because the toys say "made in China."

I like to use critical thinking skills so you'll need to fill in some details around your out of context picture. Who's using this canister? Who was it sold to? When was it sold? Who sold it to them? The US directly or a contractor? If this was sold directly by the US government to Mubarak during the last week then it would provide some evidence that Obama is actively trying to stop democracy in Egypt. Otherwise, this is more of your usual silliness.
Yes, we know the US has given financial and military aid to Egypt for decades. That's not evidence that Obama is currently acting to keep Mubarak in power.

[EFerrari]

47. Here's something you might enjoy. I did.

Dima_Khatib Dima Khatib أنا ديمة
Washington sent a special envoy, ex-ambassador, to Cairo for talks.. but it says that change in #Egypt is not decided by the US #jan25
27 minutes ago

48thave Elizabeth Ferrari
@Dima_Khatib Sometimes the jokes just write themselves.

[Radical Activist]

50. So you're against two nations talking to each other?

:crazy: You really are desperate.

You can't answer any of my questions about the picture?