A call to increase the safety of our children (swimming pools)

[pipoman]

What is the 2nd leading preventable cause of accidental death (after auto accidents) of children 0-14? Drowning.

* In 2007, there were 3,443 fatal unintentional drownings in the United States, averaging ten deaths per day. An additional 496 people died, from drowning and other causes, in boating-related incidents.1, 2
* More than one in five fatal drowning victims are children 14 and younger.1 For every child who dies from drowning, another four received emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries.1
* Nonfatal drownings can cause brain damage that may result in long-term disabilities including memory problems, learning disabilities, and permanent loss of basic functioning (e.g., ., permanent vegetative state).

-snip-

CHILDREN: In 2007, of all children 1 to 4 years old who died from an unintentional injury, almost 30% died from drowning.1 Although drowning rates have slowly declined,1,3 fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death for children ages 1 to 14 years.4

Yep, that's right, drowning. Some of these tragic drownings occur in necessary water holding areas or bodies of water. Of children under 1 year of age, the most common place drowning occurs is in bathtubs, toilets, and buckets. While preventative measures should be taken, bathtubs, buckets and toilets are certainly necessary for daily living, thus an argument can be made that restricting these items may be subject to a cost benefit analysis leaving us with the answer that while tragic, the overall benefit of these items outweighs the risks.

This brings us to the next leading area of danger. Private residential swimming pools. While there are localized restrictions and codes on the construction of residential pools, there are no national restrictions or codes. The CDC lists several suggestions to make residential pools more safe. None are codified as federal law.

LACK OF BARRIERS AND SUPERVISION. Children under one year most often drown in bathtubs, buckets, or toilets.6 Among children ages 1 to 4 years, most drownings occur in residential swimming pools.6 Most young children who drowned in pools were last seen in the home, had been out of sight less than five minutes, and were in the care of one or both parents at the time.7 Barriers, such as pool fencing, can help prevent children from gaining access to the pool area without caregivers’ awareness.8

-snip-

* FOUR-SIDED FENCING. Install a four-sided pool fence that completely separates the house and play area of the yard from the pool area. The fence should be at least 4 feet high. Use self-closing and self-latching gates that open outward with latches that are out of reach of children. Also, consider additional barriers such as automatic door locks or alarms to prevent access or notify you if someone enters the pool area.
* CLEAR THE POOL AND DECK OF TOYS. Remove floats, balls and other toys from the pool and surrounding area immediately after use. The presence of these toys may encourage children to enter the pool area unsupervised or lean over the pool and potentially fall in.

The above excerpts can be found here: http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Water-Safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html

The rate of child death in residential pools has been referenced in Freakonomics as 1 pool death per 11,000 residential swimming pools. This is a shocking number considering other risks responsible for childhood deaths.

http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-5/

The tragic accidental drowning deaths of hundreds of children 0-14 is quantified by the CDC in their WISQARS compilation site at 739 in 2007.

What could be done?

We could encourage our lawmakers to enact laws to protect children from this preventable risk.

Four sided fences with locking gates around ALL residential pools.

Hard pool covers required on ALL residential pools.

These ideas would be a start. Without penalties for failure to secure pools when unsupervised or failure to use the pool covers when not in use, these laws would be ineffective. Very few parents/pool owners are prosecuted for child endangerment following the drowning of a child. Responsible parties and pool owners should face criminal prosecution for failure to use these safety devices or for failure to properly supervise children.

Certainly not all of these drownings would be prevented by these measures, but some of the 700+ annual fatalities and countless permanent injuries could be prevented by the enactment of these simple laws and subsequent prosecution of violators IMO.

[enlightenment]

1. Just playing Devil's advocate -

should parent's who allow their children to run around unsupervised (i.e., to gain access to a neighbor's fenced and gated backyard, assuming said neighbor did not have their pool separately gated/covered because they don't have children) be prosecuted for failing to properly supervise their own children?

[pipoman]

2. Personally, I think both should be prosecuted, depending on the circumstances

I believe that the pool owners should receive the majority of the blame, they spent the money to put in the pool, yet failed to secure it. Examples of people being prosecuted criminally for not fencing private sewage lagoons where an unrelated person drowns can be found. There are federal requirements on sewage lagoons which are adopted in virtually all area where lagoons are found.

[enlightenment]

4. Okay -

In the circumstances I described, the child would have to breach the existing fence and gate surrounding the yard in order to access the pool. Should the parents of the child bear more culpability in that case?

Reasonable safety measures are a good thing - but they don't need to be federal. Where I live, home owners who have pools are required to have fencing around the yard OR around the pool, and self-locking gates on all the fencing.

If someone has children, the reasonable thing to do is put fencing around the pool, as well - but why should the neighbor who does not have children be required to do that? If a child gets into the neighbor's fenced and gated yard, they didn't do it in the blink of an eye - the failure to supervise falls on the parents, not the neighbor, and that's the way the state sees it. The neighbor made reasonable measures - fencing the yard, installing self-locking gates. They would not be prosecuted under those conditions. Neither would the parents . . . when, in my opinion, they bear far more responsibility.



edited because my 's' key is behaving badly.

[pipoman]

25. I am not one who doesn't believe in zero tolerance

and consider myself a civil libertarian. I believe each case must be evaluated individually. As it is almost nobody is prosecuted in these tragedies.

That said, if there were Federal guidelines which each state was strongly urged to adopt as law which included a four sided fence and hard pool cover. Then if an accident still occurred through no fault of the pool owner, meaning every reasonable precaution was taken, yet through the ingenuity of the child an accident still occurred, no criminal prosecution should occur, imo.

As for the federal thing. I think the feds should make a set of reasonable guidelines, then strongly encourage the states to adopt them as laws. This happens a lot, child safety seats, drinking and tobacco ages, DUI alcohol levels, etc.

The neighbor should have to fence the pool because a pool is a kid lure. I don't have kids but am still required to fence my sewage lagoon. Standardized rules should apply. What if the neighbor has company with kids? Or if they sell their home?

[Kievan Rus]

28. I have a better idea. How about parents teach their kids not to trespass on other people's pools?

[blueamy66]

45. WTF is a sewage lagoon? nt

[MicaelS]

56. A sewage lagoon is an open air pond...

Used for the containment of sewage. http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=WQ402

[pipoman]

57. See above link

these are usually used in rural areas with heavier clay top soil. Most rural areas don't have access to public sewer systems. Some rural areas with good drainage use septic fields...underground containment which separates solids from liquids allowing the liquids to evaporate or seep into the ground being filtered by the soil. Sewage lagoons are widely used across the US.

[lepus]

6. It's obviously the pool owners fault.

Regardless if what level of care and supervision the parents/guardians took. If the pool was not there, those kids would still be alive.

Understand, we do not want to ban pools, except for those in ground pools that have the capability of killing a lot of kids at once, we just want to place reasonable laws in place to protect the public.

[enlightenment]

8. I'm starting to think you are not being sarcastic . . . nt

[Obamanaut]

9. Or, if the parent/guardian had provided adequate supervision, the kids

would not have gotten into the secured (by fence and lock) pool, and would still be alive.

[bhikkhu]

11. How about if the kids are determined, so you have to put up razor-wire?

Is the pool owner then liable for injuries?

Perhaps some really creative booby-traps employing trap-doors, pillows and chloroform would be more humane? The kids could then be relocated to a vicinity too far away for them to find their way back.

[lepus]

21. All the razor wire does is slow them down.

While I do agree with a good catch and release program for children using a suitable have-a-heart trap, the chances of them bypassing it altogether are too high.

[Codeine]

13. Pool of mass destruction.

I say we move to outlaw pools with diving boards over ten feet in length.

[lepus]

18. Or pools with slides.

While it may just be a cosmetic aftermarket item, they do enhance how dangerous a pool is.

Buckets. Don't even get me started on buckets. Cheap, portable, highly concealable. About 30 kids a year lose their lives in these micro pools of destruction.

[WolverineDG]

19. How's about parents eaching the little tykes to swim &

not to trespass?

Oh wait, then they'd have to actually BE a parent & say "no" on occasion.

dg

[Lucinda]

61. x2

I was practically swimming before I could walk. Teach them early.

[beevul]

42. "Assault diving boards"?

"Assault diving boards"?

Yeah, I'm all for it!!

And ban the ones with that scratchy abrasive surface finish too, someone might get hurt!!

And those pool floaties!! Nobody needs those to swim.

[Fla_Democrat]

16. Gee, sounds so familiar

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:






:smoke:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

5. All public schools should offer free swimming lessons to young children

It would be worth the cost, for the children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. That used to pretty standard

I teach in an older urban district that has a swimming pool in every high school and many elementary schools. Swimming was part of the curriculum until the 60s. Don't know for sure why they dropped it.

[RC]

23. Money. Swimming pools are expensive to maintain.

[surrealAmerican]

12. While that's not a bad idea ...

... children under the age of four make up a large portion of these injuries and deaths, so this would not solve the problem.

[pipoman]

29. I agree..

:hi:

[Taitertots]

10. Lets just get some liability for negligent parents whose children drown in their pool

Before we worry about egregious bans we should start with incremental changes. Hold parents criminally negligent if any child drowns in their pool. They created the hazard and it should be their responsibility to make sure that people are not hurt or killed.

This leaves it up to the owner to install some degree of protection around their pools while not creating an undue burden on people who don't have children.

[pipoman]

31. I have a hard time thinking that most pool owners couldn't afford to comply

if they fail and, say, a guest's child dies in their pool, they should be criminally prosecuted, imo. Maybe no penalty for not complying on existing pools, but failure to comply and a death occurs results in some hard time.

[Codeine]

14. Just watch your damned kids.

Be a parent or don't bitch about it when your precious spawn prove incapable of dealing with water.

[pipoman]

32. Really?

Do you feel the same about child safety seats in cars?

[flvegan]

15. Ban swimming pools.

And buckets. And toilets. And bathtubs.

[Odin2005]

17. What happened to WATCHING YOUR KIDS!?!

And teaching kids to swim?

[pipoman]

33. Knowing how to swim will not always

prevent a drowning. Most drownings of swimmers occur because of panic...kids will panic.

[InvisibleTouch]

20. Not in favor of ever-more draconian rules and regs, sorry.

Pretty soon we won't be able to do a damn thing in our own homes that isn't a felony. How about parents teaching their kids not to trespass on other people's pools, or teach them safety around their own? Education and reasonable safety guidelines are great; legislating every move is ridiculous.

[pipoman]

34. Child welfare is public responsibility

Is your home wired and plumbed to code? Most are as a matter of public safety. There are hundreds of compliance features mandated by government for public safety, this is no different. Obviously you haven't ever had a four year old or it has been so long ago, you have lost touch with reality. Why would you object to these simple, common sense regulations?

[REP]

22. What about those who don't have children?

We're buying a place that has a 6' foot fence around the entire property, not just around the pool. We don't have children and we won't be inviting children over. Should we be forced to put up yet another fence and buy an additional cover because someone might trespass?

[lepus]

24. If it saves just one child,,,, NT

[REP]

30. You're right. We'll put in an electric fence. Think of the children!

[May Hamm]

59. Electric fences are illegal - Think of the children.

I've never lived in a municipality that did not require a fence around a pool.

My opinion is anyone who has thought about the possible liability and thousands of dollars in attorney's fees would put up a fence before ever even breaking ground for a pool. It's just not worth the risk money wise.

[pipoman]

36. I suppose you could take your chances

and hope for the best. Actually, it would likely be mandated before title could be transferred on existing pools.

[apocalypsehow]

26. I got a better idea: tell your kids to stay out of my backyard. Problem solved. n/t.

[pipoman]

37. I suppose.

You should hope no tragedies occur with grandkids or visitors.

[REP]

43. Any child on my property is trespassing

I don't have children or grandchildren; our friends either do not have children or their children are older. We don't babysit. We don't have children in our house ever.

[May Hamm]

60. You must know about liability.

If you own property it's not possible that you know nothing of the responsibilities of property owners.

[Kievan Rus]

27. A law is no replacement for parental responsibility.

Better idea: why don't parents watch their kids and make sure they don't wind up in a swimming pool unsupervised in the first place?

This is just more nanny state stupidity. Nanny state arguments like this drive people away from the left in droves, usually towards libertarianism.

[pipoman]

38. Do you feel the same about child safety seats in cars?

Some people need to be dragged into commonsense measures by threat of criminal prosecution.

[Kievan Rus]

40. They're not even close to being the same

A child in your vehicle is under your direct supervision per the law. If a child trespasses (which may I add, is already illegal) onto your private property and gets into your pool which has a fence around it, why is it the property owner's fault that somebody trespassed? What are you suggesting, that we have guards stationed at every pool all the time? At least it would provide a lot of people with jobs.

Instead of making yet another feel-good law that only burdens law-abiding citizens and probably won't solve anything in reality, there is a better solution. Teach kids to stay out of pools if they can't swim and to respect other people's property and privacy.

I agree that some nanny state legislation with regards to children is necessary, but only because they lack the mental abilities to make informed decisions. On the other hand, I am completely opposed to all forms of said legislation with regards to adults (for example, I'm in favor of repealing all laws that require adults to wear seat-belts in cars and helmets while riding motorcycles.) Anybody that doesn't wear a seat-belt in a car is an idiot and I always wear mine, but I would always wear mine even if there wasn't a law requiring it. With regards to adults, if they aren't harming anybody else or depriving anybody else of their rights, then it's none of the government's business.

Nothing drives otherwise progressively-minded people away from the Democratic Party faster than this what-if laden "for the children" and "it's for your own good" nanny state nonsense. I know a handful of otherwise progressive young people that are pro-choice and pro-gay rights, yet are anti-liberal, anti-Obama libertarians because of stuff like this.

[Nevernose]

35. I read somewhere that there are, on average, 9 child bathtub drownings/year

It was in an article on how safety-crazy we are, that we spend millions per year on child bathtub safety for a problem that, while existant, isn't exactly endemic.

There are legal and political issues with requiring curreny homeowners to secure their pools (for instance, what about childless couples?), but I believe we have a law on the books in this state requiring all homes sold with pools to install fencing or other covering. Personally, I think fencing night be more effective; how many people are going to put a hard cover on their pool every day in the summer?

[pipoman]

39. I think that the CDC link in the OP

disproves the 9 figure pretty significantly.

[pipoman]

41. I had more time now..

According to the CDC quoted above in the OP..

Children under one year most often drown in bathtubs, buckets, or toilets

Also according to the CDC site, specifically the WISQARS calculator also linked in the OP, in 2007 there were 225 drownings of children ages 0-1 years of age. If most drowned in bathtubs, toilets and buckets, the 9 figure is simply not even close to right.

[blueamy66]

44. We had an inground pool in Buffalo in the late 60s...

my Dad threw us in and we learned quickly how to swim....only inground pool on the block back then

Next was Kailua on Oahu....learned how to swim even better in the ocean.

Fenced pools are ugly.

If you have a pool and kids, teach them real quick how to do it right.

[pipoman]

46. Tell it to the 750 annual drowned kid's parents

Kids don't panic when their protector is standing right there watching them....panic and fear increases the likelihood of drowning. Kids who accidentally fall in panic, this isn't to mention that they likely have on more clothing and even shoes when they fall in.

[blueamy66]

54. Then let the parents teach the kids

how to swim from the get-go.

I panicked and my Dad told me to kick my feet and swing my arms. And I did.

Geez....children these days are sooooooo protected.

[pipoman]

55. Yea, I see your point....stupid, spoiled dead kids...

[blueamy66]

58. oh please

stop with the drama

Don't let the little precious kiddos these days ride bikes, swing from ropes, ride skateboards or hell, even walk to school. They might get hurt.

Teach the kid to swim. nuf said

[LibDemAlways]

47. A 2-year-old in my area drowned in his backyard

swimming pool last year. Mom was upstairs taking a nap and assumed two older siblings were watching him. Wrong.

No fencing around the pool.

His grave is in the same area as my dad's at the local cemetery. Heartbreaking to see the toys left there.

A tragedy that could have been avoided with a little common sense - a fence with a locked gate coupled with adult supervision - and that little boy would be playing with those toys today.

I wouldn't prosecute mom, however. Having to bury her child is punishment enough.

[kiva]

48. I suppose that's a start, but

what if a toddler breaks into a house - shouldn't people be required to put child safety locks on cabinets to keep the kids away from the Drano? And if a house has stairs, better put up a safety gate to protect infant trespassers...you can never be too safe, you know.

Or, parents could just keep their children from trespassing onto someone else's property and watch their children if they are near pools or other water.

[madmom]

49. My parents had an above ground pool, hard cover , fence around the deck with a

locked gate, another fence around that, 6 foot w/locked gate, then ANOTHER fence w/locked gate around the whole back yard. A couple teenage neighbor kids got in and slashed the liner of the pool, it was empty. Parents tried to get their parents to pay for said liner. No dice, it was called a neighborhood nuisance.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

50. So, about 10% of the number of deaths from guns, then? N.T.

[pipoman]

51. No actually

in considering accidents of children 0-14, there are around 15 times MORE kids die from accidental drownings than gun accidents (in 2007, 65 gun deaths vs. 739 drownings). As for rates, the Freakonomics link in the OP states the rate of accidental child deaths with firearms is 1 on over 1,000,000, the rate for residential swimming pools is 1 in around 11,000, or 90 times more likely.

If you look at all ages, there were, in 2007, 3,443 accidental drownings, as compared with 613 accidental shooting fatalities.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

52. Yes, actually.

"Most of the people killed by guns were over 14 and/or killed deliberately" does not refute "about 10 times more people are killed by guns than swimming pools".

Clearly, if you choose to exclude most of the people shot from your figures, guns will not look terribly dangerous...

[pipoman]

53. Clearly you don't recognize the difference between

accident and all causes. This thread is about accidents and safety precautions which could reduce ACCIDENTS...nothing more...there is no debating that swimming pools are rarely used as weapons or efficient mechanisms for suicide...can you wrap your head around the difference?

[Hangingon]

62. I see a new high tech job set...

drone pilots for the pool police.

[blueamy66]

63. This entire thread fascinates me.

As I have state upthread, we learned to swim as toddlers.

As a child in AZ, we would jump fences and swim in everyones' pools. It's really not hard to swim.

I cannot believe how scared everyone is these days of the children. Hell, my fiance played hockey on the frozen river across from his house without any padding or helmet. Oh, the horror. And guess what, he survived.

I swam in the irrigation ditches in AZ....and guess what, I survived.

Let's just encase children in plastic bubbles and stick them in front of the tv or computer for their safety.

I'm glad that I don't have children or am a child these days....

[pipoman]

64. What the hell is the matter with you?

What about 750 children drowning each year don't you understand. You are superman, we get it. 2 kids per day drown.

[blueamy66]

65. Nothing is the matter with me.

I was taught to swim.

I live in AZ where there are thousands of pools. We were all taught to SWIM.

Back in the 70s there were NO FENCES around pools.

Teach your freaking kids to swim. It's that simple.

[pipoman]

66. So no kids drown in AZ?

The total callousness of your response is unbelievable. Your telling people to teach their children to swim has done not one thing to curb the 2 deaths per day. Do you have any suggestion which might actually help with this problem or are the deaths just fine with you? Do these kids deserve to die because they haven't been taught to swim or because they panic?

Oh, and back in the good ol 70's the death numbers were significantly higher.

[blueamy66]

67. I don't have kids.

I was taught to swim at an early age. THAT'S ALL. If you don't want your kid to drown, TEACH THEM TO SWIM.

My great nieces and nephews all are taking swimming lessons. I have paid for them.

I shouldn't have to worry about some neighborhood kid trespassing onto my property and drowning in my pool.

Parents need to parent.

We could go on and on about this....I'm done. We disagree. Nuf said.

[pipoman]

68. Honestly? We don't disagree at all..

I think we both know that there are inherent risks with childhood and in merely living. I think we should do what we can to minimize risk, but alas there will always be tragic accidents.

The point of this thread was to see the responses in GD of a true risk to children (15 times greater than gun accidents), one which could be greatly eliminated through intrusive regulation or a ban on swimming pools. The answer is just as I suspected, <0 recs and very little agreement with the regulations on pools I suggested.

At the same time if a child accidentally shoots him/herself, a poster almost without fail will post in GD along with a call for massive prosecution of the gun owner, regardless the circumstances (which usually happens anyway), and new "common sense" regulations to be added to the already tens of thousands of regulations on the books...sometimes even an all out ban. Then the GD crowd chimes in with songs of praise for the OP, show total outrage for the children and they rec. the thread into three digits.

As I suspected, those threads have nothing to do with child safety and everything to do with demonizing guns and gun owners at every opportunity.

[blueamy66]

71. Honestly. I work 60+ hours a week to help

my fiance pay his child support so that we can live a normal life.

I favor stricter guns laws.....cause a gun is gonna kill a child way before a pool is.

[pipoman]

72. Statistically not true, I can demonstrate if you would like to see.

And not even close to true if speaking of accidents...pools are far more dangerous and likely to kill...65 accidental gun deaths 0-14 750 accidental drownings...15 times more likely..Oh, and 90 times more likely if you consider rates...residential pools accidentally kill at a rate of 1 death per 11,000 pools, firearms at a rate of 1 in over one million guns.

[blueamy66]

73. Do you want to work my 60+ hours every week?

I'll let you start tomorrow

[pipoman]

74. I've been working 50-55 myself..

the first time in 3 years my work has been shut down for weather...the great blizzard and all that....windchill is -20 tonight and my electricity has been blinking..,

[PVnRT]

69. Pool owners should be required to hire armed guards around their pools 24/7

Or maybe kids should stop climbing the 6'+ fences most states require to break into a neighbors' pool.

Nah.

[blueamy66]

75. thank you

Go Pack nt

[guitar man]

70. ...

:D