Fires are spreading

[nadinbrzezinski]

Sudan police clash with protesters

Source: Al Jazeera

Sudanese police have beaten and arrested students as protests broke out throughout Khartoum demanding the government resign, inspired by a popular uprising in neighbouring Egypt.

Hundreds of armed riot police on Sunday broke up groups of young Sudanese demonstrating in central Khartoum and surrounded the entrances of four universities in the capital, firing teargas and beating students at three of them.

Police beat students with batons as they chanted anti-government slogans such as "we are ready to die for Sudan" and "revolution, revolution until victory".

There were further protests in North Kordofan capital el-Obeid in Sudan's west, where around 500 protesters engulfed the market before police used tear gas to disperse them, three witnesses said.

"They were shouting against the government and demanding change," said witness Ahmed who declined to give his full name.

Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/01/2011130131451294670.html...


It is spreading.

[RKP5637]

1. Recommend!!! n/t

[NuclearDem]

2. Helllllllll YES!

[Sinistrous]

3. I have to smile at the claque cheering the spreading chaos

which is going to lead to a whole string of Islamic theocratic dictatorships, with their concomitant repression of human rights and state-enforced irrationality and ignorance. In Tunisia, they are already moving to fill the power vacuum.

Belief that this chaos will somehow lead to anything like democracy is sadly naive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. In some places it may, in others it will not

but do carry on.

Oh and one last thing... putting head in sand and going, LA, LA, LA, LA, does not mean that it is not happening.

[Sinistrous]

17. Rachid Ghannouchi

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/01/tunisia-tunis-ghannoushi-islam-politics-revolution.html

Maybe he is, or will be a force for freedom and democracy. Maybe not.

[justiceischeap]

5. 'Since I'm tired of PC, here's what many r thinking but don't want to say-the islamist scare'

weddady weddady
Since I'm tired of PC, here's what many r thinking but don't want to say-the islamist scare= "arabs aren't ready for democracy" #Jan25

http://twitter.com/#!/weddady/status/31772666822135808

This is what they think of what you're implying in Egypt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Well that is a very colonial attitude

and you are correct, most of us have it in our minds but have not said it.

[justiceischeap]

9. That was from one of the Egyptian tweeters in Cairo, not me

but I think that bucket holds a lot of water, so to speak. There is definitely an idea in the US that no Arab country could become a democracy. That if a dictator is toppled a muslim fundamentalist theocracy will grow in its place. Of course, the last time a people tried this and succeeded in toppling the regime was in 1979 (in the ME). It does the Arab people a disservice judging them on something that happened more than 20 years ago.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yes it does, I knew exactly what he was talking about

sadly.

Having studied colonialism and it's less than happy history.

I should have clarified.

[coalition_unwilling]

23. Small point but Iranians are Persians, not Arabs. When it comes to Iran, the US is in no place

to judge, for we propped up the Shah for many years, after we helped him and his agents overthrow a democratically elected leader (Mossadegh) back in 1954. We have a deep legacy of shame in Iran.

[blindpig]

30. Kinda self-serving, huh?

Gotta have 'order', ya know, without that it's a 'bad business climate'.

[Avalux]

6. You're wrong. There's nothing religious or extremist about what's happening.

I suppose you think it's best to keep the status quo in place, for fear of the unknown.

[justiceischeap]

8. Well sure that's why people were afraid to vote for, you know, the "black" man

with the funny name. Fear of the unknown. That's why so many people still dislike him, they keep waiting for the guy with the funny name to sell us out to other people with funny names. :sarcasm:

[Avalux]

11. Wouldn't it be nice if people would wake up and realize we are all the same, no matter our names?

It sounds so easy......

[Sinistrous]

13. However, it will be exploited and turned into something we don't want.

[justiceischeap]

14. Since when is everything about America's wants and needs? nt

[Sinistrous]

19. Why can't "we"" refer to the family of man and not just the USA?

I meant it as "we" who cherish freedom and democracy and self-determination. I never even thought of the chauvinist implications.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Yes, in a way you are correct

that whoosh you hear is American soft power diminishing... if Foggy Bottom does this right, they may keep SOME... if they don't... well one more step to end of Empire.

But this is also about the policies of globalization which have been all but kind in the developing world, all propaganda nothwithsatanding

[Sinistrous]

20. I am more concerned with the freedoms of the people in the region.

I'm not sure I give a big damn about the rise or fall of US influence.

[Avalux]

21. That is for the people to decide.n/t

[Sinistrous]

28. Like they did in Iran?

:rofl:

[H2O Man]

31. When?

Like when they chose our friend the Shah?

[Sinistrous]

33. Wow! I thought you were smart. But since you obviously need a clue:

Who last came to power in Iran as the result of a revolution?

[H2O Man]

34. Gosh.

I suppose that my willingness to speak with a snarky person alone would be evidence that I'm not very smart. Your mistake if you thought I was, though obviously not the only error that can be attributed to you.

The "last" revolution wasn't the only one. Hopefully, most DUers are aware of "Operation Ajax" (1953), when the US removed the Iranian prime minister, who had been elected by the people of Iran. That was definitely a form of revolution. And it lead to the next revolution, which you apparently are so concerned with.

Hence, my question -- although I was aware of what looms so large in your mind.

As others have noted on this thread, your comments suggest a concern about what is best for US interests in Egypt. I am fully aware of your denial, and the unconvincing bit about your concern for the human family. Your response to my question confirms my suspicions.

[Sinistrous]

37. And now you are a mind reader too! Your talents never end.

And I have become fascinated by how people here read a post that does not agree with their preconceptions and immediately kluge their bete noir du jour onto the post, despite a total lack of mention of what they accuse the author of thinking and a complete denial of their misconceptions by the author.

So I guess you are calling me a liar in making my denial. Nice going.

BTW, your characterization of the CIA engineered overthrow of Mohammad Mosaddegh as a "revolution" is hilarious.

[H2O Man]

39. Sure.

I read things people post here, and evalute what I think they mean. I'm sure that you do not.

And yes, by definition a revolution is a change in direction, in this case political direction. From a leader who won a national election, to a dictator placed in power by a foreign nation's intelligence operations for political/economic reasons, is a revolution.

[Sinistrous]

43. Your skills at evaluating the thoughts of others

failed miserably in this instance.

revolution: an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution

The Iranian people had nothing to do with the ouster of Mosaddegh. His ouster was entirely engineered by the US and British intelligence services. There is no similarity between that and what is happening in the Middle East now.

[H2O Man]

45. That definition fits.

Unless, of course, you believe that the CIA put in the Shah alone. I hope that you wouldn't say anything that weak. But it won't surprise me if you do.

Everything that you've wrote on this thread supports my thoughts about your position.

[Sinistrous]

46. Since I explicitly stated that

the British were involved in ousting Mosaddegh, the basis for your gratuitous insult is utterly refuted.

As regards your opinion that "Everything you've wrote (sic) supports my thoughts about your position.", it is obvious that you are now desperate to save face by defending the indefensible position you have boxed yourself into. You have made no coherent arguments to support this really goofy assertion.

So, unless you can add something of substance to the discussion, good-by.

[purrFect]

15. thats called blow-back

and so it goes...

[malaise]

25. Yep just like Indonesia

Freedom, economic justice and political rights are only needed by people in the West.
:puke:

[Sinistrous]

27. Get some rest, and then re-read my post.

As it stands, your reply is total gibberish.

[Obamanaut]

29. I do believe you are correct. nt

[bobbolink]

36. Or... it could be that your crystal ball is malfunctioning....

:shrug:

Hi, from one "claque" to another. :crazy:

[Sinistrous]

38. Whatever...

BTW, a claque is, by definition, a group, not an individual.

[bobbolink]

40. Yes, whatever... I'm guessing that the British press wasn't too happy about what was happening in

the colonies in the 1770s, either.

and your sentiments are in a group of the same, so its still a "claque".

[Sinistrous]

41. Good grief.

I write a post about my concerns for the people of the countries now in turmoil and you start talking about comments that might have appeared in British newspapers almost 240 years ago. Please try to stay somewhere near the subject at hand.

[bobbolink]

42. Please try to link the same sort of attitudes. Stretching the brain is a GOOD thing.

[Swede]

10. Dictators around the world are probably having trouble sleeping.

nt

[RegieRocker]

16. Great post!

[Odin2005]

22. Vive la Revolution!!! Viva La Revolución! Long live The Revolution!!!

[thesush]

24. but i wonder if this will effect southern sudan n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. I'm just wondering how this dovetails with your oft stated wishes...

Otherwise, you'd not post it.

Is this but another nail in the coffin of empire? Shall we cower in our homes awaiting the inevitible coming of those who would take from us that which our ancestors stole from people we never knew, with the intent of stealing it back?

Events in the Sudan will affect or hasten the end of empire. Is that about it? Jordan's internal politics affect the future of the United States, right?

Here's my opposing view: There is no fucking way that Egypt winds up a fundamentalist theocracy. No way in hell. How many signs have you seen supporting that? I've seen none. If anything, I'd put my money on the notion that Egypt will end up being a western style democracy, thus becoming an even CLOSER ally to the United States. Egyptians aren't demonstrating in an effort to install a fundamental theocracy. They're willing to die for western style democracy.

I'd posit that EVERY national government that falls in the Middle East will fall for the same reason.

[KharmaTrain]

32. Lots Of Projection Happening...

I couldn't agree with your post more.

Lots of people trying to tie events in Egypt with those in other countries and visa versa with little understanding of the realities on the ground in these countries. Just like "imperialists", people try to play global politics with situations that are based on local conditions and then attempt to score points from whatever occurs. Be it those who are already claiming this is "Obama's Iran" to those who are cheering for anarchy as some indication of the crumbing of the evil empire, the reality is a far different place.

[hootinholler]

44. The question remains

Will we (the CIA/Corporate we, not the we the people we) allow it to stand?

I agree that Egyptians do not seem to be heading in a theocratic direction, but that's not to say that with some encouragement from the right circles, it would never happen.

-Hoot

[Catherina]

35. Vive la revolution! Truth was so unrec'd and banished that now people don't know what hit them. K&R