A most powerful piece: "I hate your president.Why can't he support us?To America, we are monkeys..."

[snagglepuss]

Source: Guardian CIF


snip


This is a sweet, sweet revolution; it is peaceful. Tell everyone we are peaceful.

We do not owe this revolution to the Muslim Brotherhood, not to anybody. They say the Ikhwan is more organised – maybe. But this is the people on the street; this is not about any political party. Look, he says, more and more people are coming; Tahrir Square is getting more and more full.

I am sorry, the man tells me, but I hate your president. What is this speech he gives? Why can't he support us? He says we can have human rights but he gives us no political rights? To America, we are monkeys, monkeys, monkeys. We Egyptians don't deserve a constitution, don't deserve freedom, don't deserve democracy.

We are in the streets every day since 25 January and you give us Omar Suleiman, an agent? We are out here demanding our rights and you give us the head of intelligence? We will not accept Suleiman. America puts the security of Israel above the people of Egypt. We are monkeys to America. They are saying we Egyptians don't deserve political rights, don't deserve freedom. It's over… the fact that the outside world continues to engage this guy Mubarak is ridiculous. It's over.

snip

Clinton just spoke: she says we deserve human rights. We want political rights. Please tell the people in America we want our rights. Please explain we don't have internet. Everyone has to understand that the rights of the Egyptian people are being sold for Israel's security. Our rights are being sold. It's as if we are monkeys. They have one strategic consideration and that's Israel.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/30/peaceful-revolution-egypt-muslim-brotherhood

[stevenleser]

1. Human rights include political rights. If you inject that piece of sanity into the evaluation of

what this man on the street was saying, his missive becomes a meaningless rant against the US. Except for perhaps the only other typical scapegoat used in the Middle East, Israel.

There is simply no reason for Egyptians to hate Obama.

[snagglepuss]

4. He's been supporting Mubarak all along. Biden denied he's a dictator.

Obama has done nothing substantive to press for open and free elections, to stop torture of political prisoners. Not to be able to see how the Admin has let down Egyptians is wilful blindness.

[Dogmudgeon]

10. What do you think of WikiLeaks?

Assange and Company released State Department memoranda showing "quiet" support for the rebellion. Given our long history of support for Mohamed ElBaradei, particularly when he was the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, this makes sense.

The Obama State Department, in fact, played it both ways, holding Mubarak's hand while supporting the rebellion. I suppose that this will change the "Obama supports dictators!" cry to "Obama is Machiavellian!", but so be it. Diplomacy with friendly bastards has never been an easy game to play, and the game's master, Richard Nixon, was himself a bastard.

I'm more critical of the fact that we don't get more news of what our government does in our name. Because we don't see what's happening, it is often impossible to figure out whether we are doing the right thing. But Obama is not the "eeevil KKKorpr08 MasTurd" that a lot of DUers want to think he is.

--d!

[stevenleser]

20. That is complete bullshit as evinced if you turn that around to put it in proper context

if Obama and co were openly working to remove Mubarak from day one, the criticism here from Obama critics and from the rest of the world would be that the US was bullying another country and Obama was the same as Bush.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot criticize the US for meddling and bullying when it suits you and then accuse it of not doing enough to remove governments you dont like when it suits you.

[malaise]

42. Well said

Anyone notice that the army has not opened fire on the Egyptian people. They should wonder why.

[lillypaddle]

72. +1,000,000

right on.

[Catherina]

53. Bullshit. And the Egyptian people are smart enough to recognize that bullshit.

Talking about "wilful blindness", the hope and change routine ain't fooling anyone anymore except the willfully blind.

[snagglepuss]

57. Are you replying to my post? nt

[Catherina]

58. No. stevenleser . Post 20. Sorry Snagglepuss. Replied to wrong post. I rec'd your thread. n/t

[sabrina 1]

8. Do you know how these people have been treated for decades?

And with the help of THIS country without whom the people could have decided their own destiny.

If the U.S. cares about human rights, why are we sending millions of dollars to Karamov of Uzbekistan, to Mubarak, to Ben Ali of Tunisa? Knowing full well the brutality they have inflicted on their people.

Please, the game if over. People are taking matters into their own hands and unless the U.S. comes out on the side of this very legitimate revolution, which should have happened years ago, we will be left behind, because all over the world the oppressed people, whose oppression can be directly related to the support given to the most evil of dictators, from Latin America to the ME to Africa, are finally saying 'enough'!!

And the world is with them, even if the U.S. shamefully, is not.

That man is desperate. The world's people are listening, even if the world's enabling governments are not.

Egyptians have as much right to their freedom as Americans do. In his speech to Muslims after his inauguration, Obama stated that fact. But since then all he's done is what Reagan did, the Bushes, Clinton and nothing changed. They are angry because they thought that those words meant something. Now, they don't want to hear any more words, and who can blame them? Asking them to sacrifice their rights for OUR needs whatever they are? How fucking arrogant we are! It boggles the mind.

[Igel]

17. It's not meaningless.

It's inaccurate, inept, self-exculpatory and full of ill-founded claims. It's many things. But meaningless? Certainly not.

[stevenleser]

21. That´s one of the ways I define meaningless

"inaccurate, inept, self-exculpatory and full of ill-founded claims"

[blindpig]

48. You can't have human rights without political rights...

and ya can't really have either without economic rights. The United States has been supporting this authoritarian regime for decades. This administration gives no indication of otherwise, thus it stands accused.

And speaking of economic rights, we could use 'em too.

[stevenleser]

63. Exactly. So when Hillary Clinton, the SOS said we support the human rights of the people of Egypt

it included all of the above and thus, the person in Egypt whose rant was reposted by the OP doesnt make sense.

[blindpig]

66. Talk is cheap and they're talking out both side of their mouths.

Because you see, you cannot have those things and have a toady in charge willingly at the US's beck and call. And considering that we don't have economic equality here why would you think that the US government would want it there? Economic equality is the opposite of capitalism.

[stevenleser]

70. And it is sentiment like that which makes it imperative that we not do anything because

anything we do will be painted by people as meddling and wrong.

[robinlynne]

71. well said.

[justiceischeap]

2. I take it monkeys are bad things in Egypt?

He makes a damn good point though I think there is more than Israel at stake.

I predicted this in an earlier thread, and I'll do it again. I think we will hear harsher language from the Obama administration once we have our people out of Egypt. Probably around Tuesday.

[Earth_First]

5. +1

You are absolutely right.

[gratuitous]

3. "It's as if we are monkeys"

Oh, that Americans thought that highly of you. No, most Americans can't find Egypt on a map (certainly one of our major television networks can't). About the only time Americans think of Egypt is when The Bangles come on the oldies station, and our understanding of your country and culture is only slightly more sophisiticated than walking like an Egyptian.

[Skittles]

28. speak for yourself

I regularly speak to people in Egypt

[RandomThoughts]

6. Thats an interesting question.

Would a person agree to enslave nations to keep Israel more secure. Would Israel? Would that be faithful?

And if Israel did that, or supported that, then would they be following the teachings of their faith, and what would they reap if they supported those regimes over years.

If Israel was to make it hard on a neighboring people while having much food and medicine for Israel would that say something about their obligation in their faith of taking care of people.

Lots of interesting questions around that.

And if God chose a person of faith years ago to be his chosen people, could he chose other people also, or could he comment about inequity in many areas and how that is wrong and the effects from that.



Or they could shoot at relief convoys and not worry about that.

I think better distribution systems, good information systems, and democracies in areas make sense.

[treestar]

7. What do we or our President have to do with it?

What does Israel have to do with it?

:wtf:

[movonne]

12. I hope you are kidding...don't you read...

[stevenleser]

22. Do you? n/t

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stevenleser]

24. I rather think that yours does. Thank you n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

18. What do we or the Prez have to do with it?

Apparently more than you have been willing to follow by reading. I suggest you do a little homework and figure out why this guy was propped up just like Sadaam and all the other puppet dictators who received nods and winks from the United States in their role as puppet dictators.... Then, tell us why for the last 30 plus years, he's been changing their constitution to make him emperor in chief for life.

Apparently, we got ourselves in to a convenient little war over things like this when Cheney Bush decided the time was right.

That's what we have to do with it. Lather, Rinse, Repeat ... get it?

[stevenleser]

26. Bullshit. Obama has nothing to do with this.

Unless of course you expected him to send the CIA to destabilize and remove Mubarak, or invade and regime change the country.

But you couldnt be advocating for that, now could you?

[MrMickeysMom]

46. Of course he could "do something"...

He could make a declarative statement that it's time to listen to his people and indicate in the way only HE can what this means.

The United States, and therefore Obama are not benign in this event. If you don't understand that, then read more and watch world news. Better yet, talk to Egyptian Americans about it.

[KG]

23. you can't possibly be that uninformed, so i'll take it your just being disingenuous

[stevenleser]

27. Oh yes, and you are so informed you couldnt post anything to back yourself up. n/t

[KG]

29. whatever.

:boring:

[stevenleser]

31. Yes, whatever indeed. (No trite smiley face included)

[Ignis]

59. Yap yap yap.

Great work, keep it up. :thumbsup:

[Enthusiast]

44. WTF indeed.

Crawl back under your rock.

[iamtechus]

9. All of those poor demonstrators are making a terrible mistake by not selecting a leader

A large group of people without a leader is a MOB. The poor bastards can't expect other countries -- or Mubarak for that matter -- to take them seriously as long as they are just a huge blob of discontent.

I am sure that the Muslim Brotherhood understands this as does the military and they will be fighting each other to get into Mubarak's office if he decides to leave.

Those boobs out there reciting poetry and directing traffic won't know what hit them.

edited to correct typos

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. El Baradei, say it after me, EL BARADEI

good

[stevenleser]

34. Some don´t like him and accuse him of being essentially a carpet bagger.

I happen to love the guy, at least as much as I have been able to gather about him by a lot of reading.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. and all groups in Egypt have agreed to have him

as the de facto leader. So there is a leader now, to negotiate for all. That is my point...

[stevenleser]

37. "All groups?" I would like to believe that. Do you have a link?

What I have read suggests tepid overall support for him at best.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Al jazeera has been reporting this all day.

[stevenleser]

39. Interesting. The hotel I have been in for the past 5 days does not get Al Jazeera

or many US stations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Online. Al jazeera is not on on most cable systems

Search for it...they are the best on this mess

[aquart]

11. He wants to be free to kill Jews?

Well, who wouldn't agree with that? That's the only problem his country has. Israel.

I simply cannot wait till the triumphant Egyptians throw open their Gaza border and embrace their Palestinian brothers in real love.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. I didn't see that in the OP

Where did you see that?

[JoePhilly]

49. It is interesting that so much of his anger was directed towards Israel.

His anger that we aren't doing enough is one thing ... his extending it to Israel suggests something more.

[Catherina]

55. I can't wait either. It will be the happiest day of my life when the Gaza border is opened

Shame on anyone who supports that inhumane crime.

As to the rest of your post :eyes:

[customerserviceguy]

15. A 'peoples revolution' is all too soon hijacked by forces lying in wait

Here's a little something from Time Magazine:

"The President's problems are magnified by the fact that the opposition does not arise from a single political sector, like the communists, or a single cultural group, like the religious conservatives, who remain his most vocal and articulate foes. The dissent cuts across class, religious and political divisions, ranging from Marxist students on the extreme left to Western-educated intellectuals, professionals and businessmen in the center to religious zealots on the far right. The mullahs, for all their abhorrence of the decadent excesses of modernism, have traditionally been political progressives and nationalists in their outlook."

Ok, I tricked you, I changed the word "Shah" to the word "President" from the fifth paragraph in this 1978 article:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,916373,00.html

I've been reading Time from the period of 1977-1981, looking for parallels in how the Repukes used events to oust Jimmy Carter in favor of Ronald Reagan. I sure hope President Obama has people doing the same thing. If so, they are wise to be cautious.

[justiceischeap]

16. I suspect 1978 is weighing heavily on everyone's minds in DC nt

[defendandprotect]

19. k

[HEyHEY]

25. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. n/t

[stevenleser]

30. Which is the point that many claiming they are better informed don´t get or won´t acknowledge

Attacking Obama for his administration´s basic friendliness toward Egypt absolutely demands one answer the question, what, instead, would YOU have done?

There are two possible answers and both do not end up in a positive outcome.

[HEyHEY]

32. Plus, if we chastize a foreign leader we are interfering, if we don't we are "supporting them"

If we withhold aid to a dictator we are "punishing the people" if we give them aid we are "propping up their regime" it's such a load of bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. It is imperial citizens looking out.

[johnroshan]

41. A majority of the aid was military in nature.

That is the reason why withholding the aid now is a pretty good idea.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

60. The "what would you have done" question has been repeatedly answered.

Either you're simply ignoring answers you don't like, or you're being remarkably disingenuous.

Which is it?

[stevenleser]

64. Which answer? Have the CIA topple him? Drones? Which one are you talking about

Yes, various individuals have put forth moronic answers. To which one do you subscribe? To which one do you intend to attach YOUR credibility?

[Ignis]

65. So you're asking to which "moronic answer" I subscribe? No thanks.

[stevenleser]

68. That's what I thought. n/t

[Ignis]

74. You thought I wouldn't play your game of false dichotomy?

Gosh, I guess that means you'll have to find someone else to berate and belittle, doesn't it?

Quelle damage. :(

[stevenleser]

75. Yep, exactly what I thought. You've got nothing. n/t

[Ignis]

76. Allow me to ask a counter-question: Which serial killer do you like most?

I mean, since you have no problem asking which "moronic answer" I favor, I'm sure you'll have no problem answering a similarly disingenuous one, right?

:eyes:

I'd hate to think you were anything other than an honest broker.

[Enthusiast]

43. K&R nt

[TBF]

47. You are not the only ones who are monkeys - it's not like we have political rights either. nt

[Godhumor]

50. I think they have a much different definition of what political rights actually are n/t

[TBF]

51. No they don't -

Workers worldwide would like to overthrow their oppressors. There is nothing confusing about that, only folks who try to confuse it because they have a financial interest in doing so.

[Godhumor]

54. Yeah, going to stick with my original answer even when faced with slogans

I really don't think Egyptians would say that their lack of political rights is the same as ours, by any stretch of the imagination.

[TBF]

56. I'll stick with my original response as well,

even when faced with right-wing talking points.

[Catherina]

52. Powerful piece. K&R for truth. n/t

[leftynyc]

61. I'll feel a lot better

when this uprising doesn't result in a theocracy. When women, gays and minorities are as safe as everyone else. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Hydra]

67. Hey, they can't do any worse then when we're in charge

When we support a dictator, you're dead if you aren't part of the "accepted norm."

[leftynyc]

73. Nonsense - it can and will get

a whole lot worse for women, gays and minorities if the religious freaks are in charge.

[Arkana]

62. And if we did interfere the Middle East would go fucking crazy.

It's THEIR problem, let THEM deal with it. I am so, so tired of this "world policeman" thing.

[stevenleser]

69. And in the eyes of the people in the region, we would delegitimize any side we helped n/t