We're Better off Than Egypt - Right? Let's Take a Look.

[Donnachaidh]

http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/rj-eskow/34017/were-better-off-than-egypt-right-lets-take-a-look

A tourist who was interviewed last night from Cairo spoke for millions of his fellow Americans when he said he couldn't imagine living a country like Egypt. It is hard, isn't it?

Imagine: A government run by and for the rich and powerful. Leaders who lecture others about "sacrifice" and deficits while cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy. A system so corrupt that rich executives can break the law without fear of being punished. Increasing poverty and hardship even as the stock market rises. And now, a nation caught between a broken political system and a populist movement that could be hijacked by religious extremists at any moment.

No wonder they're upset! Why, we'd be marching in the streets too.

Here's the reality: Income inequality is actually greater in the United States than it is in Egypt. Politicians here have close financial ties to big corporations, both personally and through their campaigns. Corporate lawbreakers often do go unpunished. Poverty and unemployment statistics for US minorities are surprisingly similar to Egypt's.

More at the link --

[Lucian]

1. How dare the author uses facts to show that we're not better off than Egypt.

Yet many here say we are.

Whatever. :eyes:

[Recursion]

9. Some of us say it because we've been there

And can't quite decide if these comparisons are offensive, absurd, or both.

[Maru Kitteh]

76. I vote for both, plus insulting to the plight of Egyptians. n/t

[Doctor_J]

11. Yes, the platitude goes,

"Egptians only make $2/day, so we're nothing like them"

whatever, indeed.

[Lucian]

38. Should we wait, then, until they get that low here?

:eyes:

[quaker bill]

82. Should has nothing to do with it

Such movements are not the result of a considered rational choice, they arise spontaneously from emotion.

[dkf]

2. Is the point of this to promote Government overthrow?

I wonder if the Feds look at stuff like this.

[jaxx]

4. I wonder too.

It seems the naysayers are getting bolder.

[Disintermedia8]

70. We might need to clamp down with some more stringent measures

Enhanced interrogation perhaps. Just make an example out of a few.

[ret5hd]

5. Some people don't get you, but i do...

you are smashingly funny!!! :rofl:

[Doctor_J]

12. No, the point is to march in the streets when your government

no longer represents you.

[RegieRocker]

22. and the fact that you posted this and want to instill fear

speak volumes. Proud of your country heh? Don't think it needs a tune up heh?

[Romulox]

28. A *true* patriot would make a citizens arrest!

:eyes:

[TBF]

68. That is not allowed on this website, so no that would not be "the point" -

in fact, it's interesting that you would ask that since you posted an OP this weekend asking people to explain to you what the standard of life is like for the average Egyptian. This is something many are thinking about, and if you'll read a few more threads people actually got to the point of posting actual statistics which is interesting.

It seems that the gap between rich and poor is wider here, but on the whole there are several other measures (infant mortality, per capita income, etc...) showing that most in Egypt are living (or not living) at a subsistence level (ie probably in greater poverty than we have here - or comparable to our poorest areas).

In the end my focus is on working folks being able to get out from their oppressors - I have no interest in propping up the status quo. But it doesn't hurt to talk about the available data in order to get some idea of what is going on in different areas. After reading some of these statistics there is no doubt in my mind as to why the people of Egypt are mad, and I think plenty have the right to be angry here too.

[Catherina]

3. Rec'd. n/t

[Recursion]

6. How does "we are more unequal" remotely prove we're worse off?

I mean, seriously, this is the caricature of the Left's position that the Right keeps using against us: would you really rather have a more equal country where the median income was 10 dollars per day?

[NoPasaran]

7. DU really needs a performance art forum

[cali]

8. there's something really disturbing about people trying to make this case

the fact is that the depth of poverty in Egypt is of a magnitude that's far, far greater than here. People trying to make this case fail miserably, and the thing is that conditions here are quite bad enough that it's unnecessary.

[Doctor_J]

13. So we should wait until we're a third-world country to protest?

[cali]

14. love your little straw man, but of course that's not what I said.

Try reading for comprehension.

[pampango]

10. Per capita income in Egypt $5,500; in the US $46,442. Our income inequality

is worse - a disgrace.

The US' Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index is #12 (again a disgrace given the amount of wealth in the country) behind most European countries, Canada and Australia. Egypt ranks #101 just behind Mongolia and just ahead of Uzbekistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

[frazzled]

15. Egypt is 137th in per capita income, yet 16th in population

US is 11th in per capita income, 3rd in population. Talk amongst yourselves.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook//rankorder/2004rank.html?countryName=Guernsey&countryCode=gk®ionCode=eu&rank=14#gk
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

[OnionPatch]

16. I spent a year in Egypt.

The poverty in Egypt is gut-wrenching. Being there and witnessing it changed my whole outlook on life, profoundly, forever. It's embarrassing that an American would even say our income inequality is greater than theirs, and if it is, it can only be because our rich are so much richer.

[cali]

20. thanks. it's such cheap rhetoric. disgusting really.

[Pisces]

74. +1000 from a fellow traveler to Egypt. These comparisons are beyond disgusting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Yep we are just as bad

I guess those are photos of the slums of new york...

Silly me.

Things are bad here, but to claim that they are just as bad is silly.

[bobbolink]

18. No, pictures of NOLA.

[dionysus]

23. .

:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

63. That would only be applicable...

If our entire country looked like NOLA.

And we would only be able to honestly compare ourselves to Egypt if our entire country looked that way as well... or if half of us were unemployed.

Had we not pulled out of the ditch, we may have looked like that now. But no.

[bobbolink]

69. I forgot...... NOLA people were invisible.

[JuniperLea]

71. No, they just weren't a full country full of people...

And that is what it would take for a comparison to be correct. We would all need to be suffering like those in NOLA for that to hold any water.

This doesn't detract from their suffering in any way, but it makes a lot of sensible people wince when America is compared to Egypt. It just isn't so, and no amount of spinning is going to get it there. Sorry.

[dionysus]

19. .

:rofl:
:spray::rofl:
:spray::rofl:
:spray::rofl:
:spray::rofl:
:spray::rofl:
:spray:

[Godhumor]

21. The author is trying to use Gini to make this point, which shows he has absolutely no clue

This is a horrible article and cheapens the economic reality of Egypt.

[RegieRocker]

24. B.S.

taken straight from the article " Life for the Egyptian poor can be much harsher than we're used to seeing here. Roughly 3.8% of Egyptians live in "extreme poverty," which means they don't have enough to eat on a daily basis. While that level of poverty's much rarer here,"

[Godhumor]

26. Again, He starts with we have greater income inequality and then uses Gini

To make his point.

That is not how Gini works.

Since he doesn't understand that, the rest of his point is invalid.

[Hannah Bell]

47. it's not? please enlighten everyone.

[cbdo2007]

25. It isn't about income inequality between the top and bottom. It is about the 80% of people in the mi

ddle. We're all doing just fine.

[Hannah Bell]

48. gini isn't about top & bottom either, it's about the entire distribution.

& i question your claim that the middle 80% are "doing fine".

[spanone]

27. go live in cairo then come back & report in...

[Uzybone]

29. out of touch American foolishness

anyone who can compare the living situations in Egypt to the US is completely out of the loop. They should just continue to sit at home and wallow in their ignorance.

[Romulox]

30. Talking about inequality in the US makes you a JERK--they're so much poorer in Egypt

that poverty in the US not only doesn't matter, it's an inappropriate subject for conversation altogether!

[cali]

31. it's vital to talk about inequality in the U.S. It's bullshit

to claim that it's worse in the U.S.

[Romulox]

32. By all means, take a stand in defense of the US' economic status quo.

I have no idea why this comparison, hyperbolic or no, should elicit such passion if the facts underlying the comparison do not. :shrug:

[Hydra]

33. We don't get upset about facts in this country

We get upset about perceptions.

"War on Christmas!!!"

[TBF]

34. Do you have anything to back that up - because facts do not support it

This from wiki, 2002 numbers to be fair, but it paints a different picture than you are giving -

Gini Index: Countries with greatest equality

1. Slovakia 19.5 11.9% 31.4%
2. Belarus 21.7 11.4 33.3
3. Hungary 24.4 10.0 34.4
4. Denmark 24.7 9.6 34.5
5. Japan 24.9 10.6 35.7
6. Sweden 25.0 9.6 34.5
7. Czech Republic 25.4 10.3 35.9
8. Finland 25.6 10.0 35.8
9. Norway 25.8 9.7 35.8
10. Bulgaria 26.4 10.1 36.8
11. Luxembourg 26.9 9.4 36.5
12. Italy 27.3 8.7 36.3
13. Slovenia 28.4 9.1 37.7
14. Belgium 28.7 8.3 37.3
15. Egypt 28.9 9.8 39.0


NOTE: Countries are ranked according to the Gini index (or coefficient), a measure of income inequality within a country. A country's Gini rating is between 0 and 100, with 0 indicating perfect equality and 100 indicating absolute inequality. (The U.S. rates 40.8 on the Gini index—the poorest 20% of its population receives 5.2% of income; the richest 20% receives 46.4%.)
Source: World Development Index 2002, The World Bank.

Read more: World Income Inequality (2002) — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908770.html#ixzz1Ce1rq1SH

[Godhumor]

36. FFS, this is bastardizing what the Gini shows--you cannot use it as a 1 on 1 comparison

Really short form, it does not measure economic opportunity. In a country like Egypt, the Gini spread may be less, but more people are lacking the basics to live. In a country like the US, where the vast majority of people have full access to the basics needed, the Gini reflects the spread in so called "luxury" income (i.e. that beyond the basic).

Gini cannot be used to support the idea that Americans are less better off due to wealth spread.

[TBF]

37. "where the vast majority of people have full access to the basics needed"

Please define "basics" and "full access". I know facts don't convince you when you have your right-wing BS to spread. But go ahead and amuse us.

[Godhumor]

39. Did you honestly call me right wing because I don't like seeing people misusing a statistical dongle

Let me make this even simpler, if the spread is less but more people live in poverty than that country's wealth inequality spread is not a direct comparison to a country where the majority of people live at or above the poverty line-even if the rich are proportionatly richer. It is a very, very, very well known limitation of the Gini coefficient and the reason it is not used in modern macro economics as the sole statistical measure between countries. Gini is only useful in comparing various systems when combined with other statistical measures.

Anyone thinking the US is worse off than Egypt is a fool and completely denegrates the Egyptian situation.

[TBF]

43. Rather than insulting folks, why don't you find some evidence of the

assertions you're making? All you have done is criticize the facts I offered, you've offered nothing substantive to argue against it.

[Godhumor]

46. Um, yes I have, and I haven't insulted you-though you've gone after me

The facts to back it up are for what the statistical measure is actually used for. I explained that it cannot be used for a direct 1-on-1 comparison due to the fact that it doesn't account for economic opportunity. I don't know what more I can tell you other than Gini doesn't say what you think it says.

[TBF]

49. Again, nothing substantive. Just your opinion, no facts. nt

[Godhumor]

52. Not opinion--it is how the Gini is actually used. Statistics can't just be slotted into a story

Please, understand this is not an opinion--an opinion would be "I disagree with what you say, because I feel..." Understanding what statistics show and how they're used is piece and parcel to being able to talk about them correctly.

The Gini coefficient does not account for economic opportunity--it never has nor never will. If used by itself to compare countries, it gives an incorrect assessment due to the fact that it makes no accounting of % in poverty or other macro indicators that are necessary. Is it fair to say the US spread is larger? Yes, that is what the Gini shows. It does not show that the US is worse off. If an entire country was under the poverty line and all made the same amount of money, the ratio would be perfectly equal, but no one would argue the country was actually better off than and developed 1st world country.

To use the Gini it must be considered with other macro factors including poverty rate, education/literacy rates, GDP, per capita income, etc. etc. By itself all it does is give a number that has no meaning other than the spread is larger/smaller--that is it.

[pampango]

53. Try post 10 and 15 above. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

50. gini represents the same thing wherever it is used.

[Godhumor]

55. Calculating spread, yes, but it does not represent the actual economic opportunity of a country

Comparing the Gini of one country to another to draw any meaningful macro conclusion is an exercise in futility, because it does not level set.

So no, Gini does not "mean" the same in every country. A gini of, say 0.43, in a developed country looks worse than a gini of 0.28 in a third world country--but that is patently untrue.

[Hannah Bell]

57. red herring. no one claimed it represented "opportunity". they claimed it represented

income/wealth distribution, which it does.

you're dragging in a lot of fish.

[Godhumor]

64. No, people are using it say things are "worse" in the US

And it doesn't say that. Saying the spread is larger is fine--saying it shows that income distribution is worse is not, because Gini does not establish a poverty baseline, among other things.

It is more the use of the word inequality as an out and out zOMG negative. If an average income is 50,000 and the super rich is at 1,000,000 that is a larger spread than an average of 10,000 versus 30,000. The first one is definitely less equal but, on average, much more preferable than the more equal second choice.

That is why using the Gini as an indication of being worse does not work.

[Hannah Bell]

79. no, they're using it to say income distribution is worse & inequality is worse. & it is.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Uzybone]

45. Ranked right below Egypt is Rwanda

Yes, that Rwanda. Rwanda, Egypt and Pakistan are ranked better than both Canada and the Netherlands.

Oh and the income gap is supposedly worse in Chile and Hong Kong than it is in Nigeria. Fucking hilarious.

What a rubbish statistic.

[TBF]

35. Bad in Egypt, worse here. K&R nt

[Silent3]

41. Worse here than Egypt? WTF?

Even if there is a greater income distribution disparity in the US than Egypt, it's only because Egypt's rich aren't as insanely rich as our richest people, not because our poor are anywhere near as poor. Most poor people in the US, even many of the unemployed, are materially far better off than most Egyptians, especially the poorest Egyptians.

I'm not advocating American complacency -- there's a lot would should protest more than we do. That doesn't excuse, however, ridiculous comparisons that fail to appreciate how much better off Americans are than Egyptians.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[nadinbrzezinski]

75. I guess once again these are the slums of New York

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/04/18/svEGYPT_wideweb__470x306,0.jpg



And while this is the reality of a small percentage of americans...



This reality



is far worst in places like Egypt.

No we are not there... if we were... this is how large swaths would look like



http://www.firstmediation.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/great-depression.bmp

And while we are on our way there... and by economic indicators you could argue we are there... we are NOT there yet.

Let's work to prevent this, shall we?

[JI7]

51. Yeah, we ARE better off than Egypt , i don't know why you feel the need

to try to equate the two or in some cases say things here are worse in order to be critical and call for change.

it is ok to want to improve our conditions even though we are better off than many other nations .

but i think some people seem to want people to go out in the streets and want what is happening in egypt. but you CAN do that already, people do it all the time. unlike in Egypt the internet and other communication isn't not going to be shut down.

[JuniperLea]

54. I think this is beyond irresponsible...

WTF? Anyone who thinks we are anywhere close to being as bad off as the Egyptians is just too stupid to breath correctly... basic brain-stem failure. Why is this idiocy allowed here? At the risk of repeating myself, WTF?

[cali]

56. thanks, JL.

this meme has been going around DU for the last few days. Sickening.

[JuniperLea]

59. I'm literally shaking my head as I type this...

WTF, cali? Are people that afraid of real change that they are shitting their pants?

From my POV, Democracy is breaking out! That is a good thing. The people of Egypt need to be in control of this, and we've seriously fucked up every country we've tried to "help" into democracy. This isn't a fucking football game, but that's how it's being treated here.

I'm not always happy with Obama, but I think he's doing the right thing here. Maybe it has just been too long since people have seen real diplomacy? Seems some would be a lot happier if we were back to cowboy boots and saber rattling. I truly believe it is irresponsible to even suggest the US has a right or can do anything. What would we do? Fight the people? Prop up a dictator? Install our own? That's worked so well in the past. And to say we are anything like the Egyptians is just amazingly naive.

I pray this works out well for the people of Egypt. They need a break.

[Posteritatis]

61. The mental blocks people have positioned right around the border are astonishing

There's probably people around here who think the US is worse off than Congo-Kinshasa or southern Sudan, never mind Egypt. I know there's people here who've argued at embarrassing length about how much better off North Koreans are compared to Americans.

It's embarrassing, to say nothing of infantilizing to large chunks of the other ninety-five percent of the planetary population. The sheer pompous, self-obsessed arrogance required to argue that Americans are worse off than places like that - without fear of real repurcussion on a forum like this, no less - is ridiculous.

[JuniperLea]

65. The knot in my gut...

Agrees with you 100%.

I'm going to wear my neck out shaking my head today.

[MilesColtrane]

85. Are you kidding me?

Have you seen latte prices lately?



Your average Ehtiopian is Bill Gates in comparison to us!


:sarcasm:

[Posteritatis]

58. So many comfortable Americans nailing themselves up on first-class crosses... (nt)

[JuniperLea]

60. They'd never want to ruin a good manicure... eom

[Posteritatis]

62. Oh, there'd be designer nails and mallets involved

Only the best for the worst-off, you see. ;)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

66. I love the posts elsewhere comparing us to a third-world country.

Said by people posting freely on the internet. :rofl:

[Mike 03]

67. Kick and Rec. Been thinking the same thing for years. NT

[upi402]

72. Me too as I traveled

Now, when I hear "America is the greatest country in the world" or
"Where else can you become take the initiative to start a business and get rich..."

I want to :puke:

Asia is much freer and it's much easier to start a business without a WalMart crushing you immediately.

[Pisces]

73. You obviously have never been to Egypt or experienced 3rd world poverty. It is nothing

like being poor in America. Get over yourself Sarah Palin, and quit making everything about us. It is not. These comparisons point out how ignorant most Americans can be.

[quaker bill]

83. Well put, thanks

[Starry Messenger]

77. k&r

Oh we're not totally there yet? Let's get cracking. :sarcasm:

[Shandris]

78. Note that this is the Federal Poverty Guideline.

The FPG is still right around the 80% quintile of Egypt.

[Starry Messenger]

80. We shouldn't have *any* poverty in this country.

It's a rich fucking country, and we have a shit-ton of billionaires who aren't paying their way. No one is saying that OMG we have just the same set-up as Egypt. It's that the overall gap is wider and the problem is getting worse, not better. My question again, do we have to wait until more of our people are up to their necks in garbage to say there is a serious damn problem here?

[TBF]

81. +1 - finally a voice of reason. I thought I was lost in a bad FAUX news

commercial for a minute there ...

"look at our beautiful country with no poverty - we are so much better off than those third world folks". I guess they can't see the slums from the porches of their McMansions. Granted there are different measures/statistics we can look at and compare, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a very small minority of elites that owns everything - both in this country and worldwide for that matter.

[bvar22]

84. Things not as bad as you say.

We caught that Wall Street Crook, Martha Stewart, and threw her criminal ass in jail.

[Blue_Tires]

86. ttt