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Shanghai gets top PISA test scores. But there's a price to pay for the 18 hour a day studies.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:28 AM
Original message
Shanghai gets top PISA test scores. But there's a price to pay for the 18 hour a day studies.
Our Arne Duncan was absolutely alarmed that the US scored about the middle. Amazingly those in Shanghai knew there was a price to pay for making education all about scores. A deputy principal of Peking University High School, and director of its International Division spoke out in a WSJ op ed about it.

Jiang Xueqin: The Test Chinese Schools Still Fail

With its demanding parents, ambitious students, and test-obsessed culture, China's K-9 schooling is probably the most rigorous in the world. And Shanghai, an open and cosmopolitan city that is boundlessly ambitious and fiercely competitive, has always been China's K-9 education leader.

..."China's most promising students still must go abroad to develop their managerial drive and creativity, and there they have to unlearn the test-centric approach to knowledge that was drilled into them.

The failings of a rote-memorization system are well-known: lack of social and practical skills, absence of self-discipline and imagination, loss of curiosity and passion for learning. Chinese students burn themselves out testing into university, where many of them spend their time playing World of Warcraft.

But don't the PISA results at least show that China's K-9 education is the best in the world, and that standardized testing, as U.S. President Barack Obama seems to believe, is necessary to improve American schools? Not really. According to research on education, using tests to structure schooling is a mistake. Students lose their innate inquisitiveness and imagination, and become insecure and amoral in the pursuit of high scores.

Even Shanghai educators admit they're merely producing competent mediocrity.


Here is even more about how they are realizing the failings of the constant testing...even as our country's leaders have decided to take that route.

China's Confucian Culture Clash

"Students hate it, parents rave against it, principals complain about it and even the Minister of Education is far from happy with it," says Xu, in his recent essay, Discourse of Resistance.

.."Hill, now the chief executive of the Australian Curriculum and Assessment Reporting Authority, which runs the My School website, says the Confucian "reverence for education" explains why Chinese and north-east Asian students do so well and also why many are so unhappy: they work very, very hard.

Gao Chunying says her son arrives at school at 7 am each day and gets home at 6.30 pm. He eats dinner for half an hour and then studies until 11 pm or midnight, six days a week. On Saturdays he stays at home and studies all day and all night.

''Every student in China studies like this," Gao says.

"They carry such a great burden, it is not good for their personality. I prefer Western education because they respect children and let them have their own ideas."


Unfortunately not for long here. We are heading the way that China is seeing now as too intense. We should learn from their experience.

Michigan State's Yong Chao wrote about this testing phenomenom as well.

How Shanghai topped PISA ranking

He wrote a piece on his blog reacting to the great surprise expressed by American leaders, including Education Secretary Arne Duncan, about the fast rise of the Shanghi students in the 2009 administration of the Program for International Student Assessment. The test is given to 15-year-olds in about 64 countries and individual school systems. Results released last week by the test’s sponsor, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, showed that the United States was generally in the middle of the pack.

On his blog, Yong wrote, in part:

I don’t know why this is such a big surprise to these well educated and smart people. Why should anyone be stunned? It is no news that the Chinese education system is excellent in preparing outstanding test takers, just like other education systems within the Confucian cultural circle — Singapore, Korea, Japan, and Hong Kong.

Interestingly, this has not become big news in China, a country that loves to celebrate its international achievement. I had thought for sure China’s major media outlets would be all over the story. But to my surprise, I have not found the story covered in big newspapers or other mainstream media outlets. I have been diligently reading xinhuanet.com, the official web portal for Xinhua News Agency, China’s state-controlled media organization, but have yet found the story on the front page or on its education columns.


Professor Chao then refers to the letter written by a mother about the stress her daughter has experienced under this testing regime. The link to the letter is in Chinese, so I will refer to Chao's website.

A True Wake-up Call for Arne Duncan: The Real Reason Behind Chinese Students Top PISA Performance

The story, entitled A Helpless Mother Complains about Extra Classes Online, Students Say They Have Become Stupid Before Graduation, follows a mother’s online posting complaining about how her child’s school’s excessive academic load have caused serious physical and psychological damages:

Since my daughter began 7th grade (first year of middle school), she has had extra evening classes. At that time, the class ends at 18:50 and I accepted it. But ever since she entered 9th grade, the evening class has lengthened to 20:40. For the graduating class, the students have to take classes from 7:30 to 20:00 on Saturdays. There are also five weeks of classes during the winter and summer school vacation. All day long, the students don’t have any self-study time, or physical education classes…

This kind of practice has seriously damaged students’ health. They have completely lost motivation and interest in studying. My child’s health gets worse day by day. So is her mental spirit. She has begun to lose her.

This is not the end. After coming home after 10pm, she has to spend at least one hour on her homework. She has to get up at 5am. She is still a child. May I ask how many adults can endure this kind of work?


Yong Chao expressed more concern earlier about this intense testing.

Asian countries moving away from standardized testing because it kills "creativity and innovation"

Just as the federal government has announced the awarding of $330 million to two consortiums so that they can develop new national exams, it is more important than ever that people check out this video of one of our best critics of high stakes testing, Yong Zhao.

..."He points out that China and other Asian countries are trying to move away from standardized testing, because it kills creativity and innovation, just as the US government is trying to impose it on schools throughout the country.


His blog also has more about Duncan's inability to process this information.

Zhao asks how in the world could Arne travel the country on that big blue bus and not hear any criticism.

During this one-hour call-in radio program, Duncan took questions from students and teachers in the Washington DC area in the studio and a few callers from around the country. Out of all the questions asked, only one gets close to criticism: “When are we going to start learning how to think and not just how to pass a standardized test?” To which Duncan answered: “It got to happen yesterday.”

That’s the moment of epiphany: Secretary Arne Duncan is a master and all criticism melts away before this great master, master of myth because all critics are told what they want to hear.


One more paragraph from the article by Jiang Xueqin.

Both multinationals and Chinese companies have the same complaints about China's university graduates: They cannot work independently, lack the social skills to work in a team and are too arrogant to learn new skills. In 2005, the consulting firm McKinsey released a report saying that China's current education system will hinder its economic development.


That was 5 years ago, yet our Secretary of Education is not paying attention.

That is scary.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. k&r
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Perhaps the goal of Chinese education is to create worker drones who
have no critical thinking skills. They are creating neutered intellects. Oxen can be driven and worked hard.
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Jkid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Or people who have no social life.
All they know is work and study. No fun, no real life.
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katnapped Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Sort of like we're doing here ? n/t
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. Maybe that's Arne Duncan's goal.
America doesn't need creative or inventive people. They only rock the boat with too many questions, and it's cheaper to contract with Asian engineers for whatever needs designing.

What America needs is people with the basic skills of literacy and numeracy required to do their little jobs, if they should be fortunate enough to get one. We need people who will listen to Rush, watch Beck, and do and think what they're told to do and think.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. k&r
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EmilyKent Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. The same things were said about Japanese
students back in the 80's. In fact such a bleak picture was painted of their lives, it's a wonder to me most of them survived into adulthood.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I remember that well. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Please note that I quoted Chinese and articles that quoted them...
Their educators are questioning their system.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. It's called propaganda.
It's what countries tell their citizens to distract them, take their eye off the ball.

The Japanese are fine as I suspect the children of Shanghai are.

The "dangers" of over-education are really nothing compared to the dangers of the lack of education.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. The Chinese are spreading their own propaganda, sorry you think that.
I think 18 hour days and Saturdays are a little much.

But then as I say, it depends on what you consider education. If you think high stakes testing is the thing, then you will like the way we are heading.

I taught and saw the pressures on really bright kids, good kids.

However not going to argue, as most Democrats are all for the testing now...and more testing and more testing.

So that is how it will be.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. Ravitch tells how Finland, China score so high. Neither do what US is doing now.
"Since I have not visited schools in either Shanghai or Finland, I am certainly no expert. It was interesting to watch the short videos about their schools, found here. It is also interesting to consider what these two very different systems have in common: They place their bets on expert, experienced teachers and on careful training of their new teachers. They rely on well-planned, consistent support of teachers to improve their schools continuously.

These two systems are diametrically opposed in one sense: Shanghai relies heavily on testing to meet its goals; Finland emphasizes child-centered methods. Yet they have these important things in common: Neither of them does what the United States is now promoting: They do not hand students over to privately managed schools; they do not accept teachers who do not intend to make teaching their profession; they do not have principals who are non-educators; they do not have superintendents who are non-educators; they do not "turn around" schools by closing them or privatizing them; they do not "improve" schools by firing the principal or the teachers. They respect their teachers. They focus relentlessly on improving teaching and learning, as it is defined in their culture and society.

The lesson of PISA is this: Neither of the world's highest-performing nations do what our "reformers" want to do. How long will it take before our political leaders begin to listen to educators? How long will it take before they realize that their strategies have not worked anywhere? How long will it be before they stop inflicting their bad ideas on our schools, our students, our teachers, and American education?"

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2010/12/the_real_lessons_of_pisa.html

And we doing right now all of the bolded things, not proven to work.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. !!
"The one thing they have in common is that neither of the world leaders in education is doing what American reformers propose."
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. add also that 1) it's a *sample* of students in shanghai, and 2) it's not "china".
Edited on Sat Dec-18-10 03:22 AM by Hannah Bell
most of china = still rural. and poor.



a lot of labor in shanghai is recruited from the provinces; they come as single men, leaving their families behind, to make money.

shanghai = richer/better educated than china on average.

sample in shanghai & us = about 5000-6000 students.

countries do their own sampling.

this is what some DUers are touting as proving that "china" is "setting the education standard".

even though about 10% of chinese don't even graduate from their equivalent of jr high school, & rural education is notoriously poor -- read the comments from chinese on these reports.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. And one article mentioned that Shanghai is supposed to send students back..
to their own provinces for high school. Apparently they can keep the good ones. Will find that reference.
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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. Okay, so a Chinese Li or Huang can produce an iPhone and an iPad...
But it still takes an American MacGyver to figure out how to meld them into a workable small-scale thermonuclear device using nothing more than a thumbtack, a toenail clipping, and a wad of used Juicy Fruit. :patriot: So there.

Well, at least until Duncan is through with him. By then, he'll be lucky to know how to find the "on" switch without written instructions.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. arent the higher countries sifting thru students for only the brightest. not what we do in u.s. nt
Edited on Sat Dec-18-10 10:40 AM by seabeyond
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Unfortunately...that does happen here a lot.
That sifting is happening a lot in the new charter schools that get public money but are not regulated like traditional public schools. There is a huge attrition rate in charter schools that gets no attention. Public schools can not dismiss students for academics, charter schools can and do.

Charter schools that boast high test scores should reveal their attrition rates as well.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. i understand it is happening in charter. which is one more advatange for them that public has to
deal with. but these tests that are taken adn then compared nation wide is not pulling out only our brightest to test. nor taking into consideration per student nationally, skewing results.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I don't even know how to respond to that.
The charters don't have to keep students who don't perform as they wish.....and they actually get to brag about how high their scores are. They really get to do that. They do not have to publish their attrition rates, they get bragging rights.

I will not respond further because I care enough about education and the students who will suffer.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. 2nd conversation mad where you take it to odd land. i have been supporting public
and pointing out the obvious as much as (not as succinctly) as you. if you would get beyond deciding what i am talking about but actually read what i am saying, you would know i am fuckin on your fuckin side. i have been opposed to charter since day one. my public schools kick charter and private schools ass in my area. my kids get an excellent academic education. their teachers and adm has by far been on the students side.

i KNOW charter manipulates in order to get the $. the dollar the schools are being deprived. i KNOW charter has advantages publics dont have, and that facts are ignored

so keep thinkin i am your enemy and whatever else bullshit...

i am done
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. understood, & you're right, the international PISA tests the media keeps touting
are a sampled test.

about 5000 students in the US took it & about the same in 3 cities in china.

there's no way the results are comparable as china didn't sample the majority of their students, who are rural & very poor.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Just what I said.
Edited on Sat Dec-18-10 02:26 PM by madfloridian
I did not know how to respond. I saw Hannah Bell's post and understood. I am careful not to argue at all here anymore because there are so many consequences. I try not to be critical of Obama and I don't argue. Maybe I can stay awhile...who knows. And I don't want to be forced to leave here because I want consider education a vital issue.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. i am with you on the public school issue. i know obama agree with so many duers who attack the
public school, teachers and adm. it is one of the things i can NOT agree with or even compromise on. i am so pissed at people blaming public schools when i have watched all the systems fail or succeed because of one thing. the home environment and parental participation in the kids education. the education is there. if a child will take advantage of the opportunity given.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I think you misunderstood seabeyond's post, madflo
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I explained.
I did not get his point, but Hannah Bell made it clear. I did not know how to respond, and I am afraid now to say much here.

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. And now for a few words…
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
13. k&r MadFloridian does excellent job of summarizing issues
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&Rnt
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