So, if repukes defeat Dream Act, do you think they will lose the Hispanic vote for a lifetime?

[Hawaii Hiker]

I think they absolutely will...States like NM, NV, and CO will, perhaps not turn CA or NY blue, but they'll go from toss-up to "lean Democrat" states in future elections...

I cannot see how Democrats don't get margins of 75-25%+ w/Hispanic voters if the pukes defeat the Dream Act today.

Agree?

[ladjf]

1. Theoretically, you are right. But, somehow, the 2010 election seemed

to have defied all political logic. I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps the rigged voting machines might be trumping all other political influences.

[LiberalLoner]

2. Ding ding ding ding "We have a winner!" n/t k&r

[ladjf]

9. As a computer programmer for 20 years, I can tell you with

certainty that programming a vote counter to cheat is child's play for any professional Not only can the tally be rigged but all traces of the illegal activity can be removed easily.

I've wondered why this isn't a greater public issue among politicians. I can only speculate that politicians on both sides are aware of the potentials for cheating but may believe that their programmer is better than the one on the other side.

[RKP5637]

4. Makes sense to me. Politicians are also window dressing for the "real" wealth

and power running this country behind the scenes. Politicians are there to appease the masses.

[ladjf]

10. You are on the right track. Stay after it. nt

[Hawaii Hiker]

5. Yes, but strong support from the Hispanic community in 2010 elections helped

Buck, Brown, Boxer, and absolutely/positively enabled Reid to beat Angle...

[ladjf]

11. You are correct. But, the margins should have been larger. nt

[EFerrari]

14. I read that Laino voters decided more than one contest for Democrats.

But I bet you're right that these voters are preyed upon by the riggers.

[blondeatlast]

34. The rigging isn't all technical, either. Voter ID laws and deliberate

tactics by the likes of Sherriff Joe Arpaio (stationing armed deputies at largely Hispanic/Latino precincts, for instance) and shortchanging the same precincts of voting booths and poll workers is SOP here in Phoenix.

[EFerrari]

36. There you have it!

:hi:

[dkf]

17. Maybe if the polls had said we should expect the opposite we could pin it on the machines.

But we kind of knew what to expect.

[ladjf]

25. "Rigging" is an equal opportunity scam. It can, and probably does,

go in multi-directions but not necessarily with the same weights on all sides. nt

[Upton]

20. How did it defy all political logic?

Traditionally, the current president's party loses seats in the midterms.

[ladjf]

26. I was basing the use of the words "all logic" on the premise of the

initial OP which was that in light of the destructive acts by the Republicans, it would seem that the Democrats should have "won" the battles in 2010.

You are correct that conventional wisdom is that the incumbant Party loses votes. However, "conventional wisdom" is often wrong.

[galileoreloaded]

3. No. Legal hispanics and other immigrants are almost violent in their...

disdain for illegal immigration.

Ask a legal first or second generation immigrant what they think. The answer will shock and surprise.

[lonestarnot]

7. Fistacuffs at a protest I went to over this very thing. People that are schitz over their own race.

The 2nd generations hate the new folks coming here. Nuttier than shithouse rats.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. That's not the case here

We have huge crowds at Dream Act rallies and lots of support from second and third generation immigrants.

[lonestarnot]

18. I'm not saying it's true in every case, however, I see way to much of it here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I'm sure you do

I would imagine the Hispanic voters there are likely to be more conservative than here.

Our local GOP has zero Hispanics. Or if they do, they hide them. :)

[Edweird]

12. This is true. I've seen it with my own eyes.

[EFerrari]

16. I don't agree with that. My mm and I are first and second gens.

We certainly don't feel that way.

[lonestarnot]

22. I don't know why you haven't seen it. Do you get out much?

[EFerrari]

23. I live in a hispanic community out here in East San Jose

and there are many, many people of all kinds of immigration status here. Lots of undocumented but that means, lots of mixed families. You might as well be in Guadalajara. Maybe it's different in other places but no one here seems to be down on people who don't have docs except the rednecks and a very few right wingnuts. Class plays a bigger role. Maybe people who feel that way don't live here.

How are you, lonestarnut? December treating you okay?

[lonestarnot]

37. You definitely got that right, they live over here. I have one right next door.

:puke:

[EFerrari]

39. Yikes.

Well, I have one in my family that I haven't talked to on purpose since 1983. Thank goodness, he went back to El Salvador and bought a resort. But he was always like that and at bottom, it isn't about immigration but about sneering at people with less than he has.

You'd love it here. It has problems like any place but there's neat sense of community. Before the Spanish came, we were mostly socialists around here, lol, so hanging in there together must be in our DNA or something. :)

[Xicano]

30. I agree with EFerrari in that I don't agree with that.

I'm a Mexican born and raised in So-Cal and I myself certainly don't feel that way, but not just me. Every single last family member of mine, every single Mexican friend I grew up with, every single Mexican co-worker/friend I have all have the same exact point-of-view regarding this issue as I do.

I know most people who are not Mexican won't see this in the same perspective that we do, and, that's fine its understandable. But every fellow Mexican I know see's this issue as the newcomer telling people who've been here for thousands upon thousands of years that we are "aliens".

Like I said I can understand why most people who are not Mexican won't see that perspective in the same light as we do, and that's fine. But its a reality that's part of history nonetheless and as such most of the Mexican community don't feel the way some in this thread have pointed out. There are other reasons of course too, such as the feeling that the US should have a moral obligation to those across the border who have been displaced by our trade policies and our industries benefiting from their resources at their financial and environmental expense, etc.

But the point is, and for whatever the reason, every Mexican, Central and South American I know feels the same way. They don't agree with what some have pointed out here about their feelings toward immigration.


Peace,
Xicano






Examples of Mexican, Central American and South Americans who don't feel the way some have pointed out in this thread.

[EFerrari]

31. Those are great pictures!

:hi:

[Xicano]

33. Thanks EFerrari, always good to see you.

:hi:

[blondeatlast]

35. Apparently, we don't live in the same region of arizona. I find absolutely the opposite. nt

[treestar]

38. I don't agree

They may have been illegal at one time, and now are legal, and are still related to illegals or have friends.

Not true at all.

[DainBramaged]

6. Nothing trumps money

[pampango]

8. They probably fear that but they fear their base even more. Their base trumps the corporate wing

of the party in cases like this.

[Pisces]

13. They will continue to lose the hispanic vote due to their racist language

and bigotry of anyone with color. They don't understand that hispanics number 1 issues is family. When you talk about deporting their family or family members, or talk about these people as criminals, you have just made an enemy for life.

The republicans want to pass SB1020 legislation in other states, like Arizona. This is alienating the few hispanics left in the Repub. party.

[EFerrari]

24. That sounds right to me. n/t

[Posteritatis]

21. Voters often have short memories. (nt)

[RKP5637]

27. That's a good point and now it seems many can't even remember the Bush years and

want to repeat them they were just so great.

[spanone]

28. no, they and the media will claim it failed under a democratic congress and President

and they will convince the people that this is the truth

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. I don't think so

The half life of the impact of any major vote is maybe four years. Also the DREAM act will not impact voting Hispanics. Finally Hispanics do not vote nearly as en bloc as to African Americans.

[EFerrari]

32. Of course it impacts voting Latinos. Families of mixed immigration status

are very, very common. And Latinos vote with Democrats for the same reason black people do, because the Republicans are overtly racist. There are exceptions but those usually have to do with class and with the now shrinking community of wingnut anti-Castro Cubans.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. In the southwest the Hispanic vote is far from monolithic

especially when compared to the black vote. Conservative Hispanics are much more than anti Castro Cubans. Many of the Hispanics I worked with in industry did not like it that newer immigrants did not have to go through the same effort that they did, an attitude I have found fairly pervasive. YMMV

[EFerrari]

44. My mileage sure does vary. There is nothing that I have seen

that shows Latinos discriminate against other Latinos on the basis of immigration status.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. Read some of the other posts here. My observations are not rare

[Robbins]

40. Hispanics

The NBC/Wall Street Journal has around 53 percent of Hispanics as one of Obama's base.Republicans will keep helping Democrats with
other Hispanic voters.

Don't forget In 2010 Both Reid and Bennet owe Hispanics to winning relection.

Hispanics are often more conservative on Social Issues like Abortion.Many are Catholic and have large familys.

Hispanics often vote Democrats on Issues like Education,Health Care,and Economy.

Democrats strength In California has been helped by antiImmigration Republicans.

Come 2012 Hispanics will be Important In Nevada,Colorado,New Mexico,Arizona(strong support from Hispanics could make this a
battleground state)Florida,and NC(Hispanics were part of the reason Obama Carried It In 2008)

The Dream act helps reminds them how antiHispanic Republicans have become despite the fact Republicans will push Rubio as spokesman.
Remember Bush was able to come close enough to steal the vote with 40 percent of Hispanic vote In 2000 and Bush would not have been
able to narrorly win In 2004 without 44 percent of Hispanic vote(allowing him to carry New Mexico and likely Nevada)

[EFerrari]

42. Check and recheck your numbers. The Latino vote

is consistently claimed by Republicans and consistently underestimated by the "mainstream" pollsters. I posted a thread about this that is probably in the archives. I'd give you the link but I don't have it any more. I believe it was posted to the Election Reform forum.

And, there is no evidence whatsoever that LATINOS vote their social values. That's just a rightwing talking point that I've yet to see supported by hard numbers.

Oh, and very few Latinos call themselves "Hispanics" because we aren't from Spain.

[underpants]

43. That is long gone

they are ruled by Fox News not the other way

[Bigmack]

45. I think we're missing one thing....

It's racist to imagine that all Hispanic people are sane and reasonable and will vote in their own interest. Look at the Log Cabin Repubs. Look at the poor whites who vote Repub. I'm sure there must be some anti-abortion black people who vote Repub.

I believe some people are fucked up regardless of race or creed or orientation.