Worried about My Dad and All Workers older than 50

[jtown1123]

My parents just recently moved to CT for a job with Pfizer. Pfizer bought Wyeth and my Dad, an analytical chemist at Wyeth, was fortunate enough to be one of the very few that was offered a job in their new facility. Uprooting their life in New York, my parents bought a home in CT last summer. Now, it looks like it is highly likely my Dad may be laid off (again) in a year. The jobs he is qualified for are all going to China, India and other places where cheap research is done. Basically, my Dad, who is 53, will be competing against younger people who are cheaper to employ, younger people who are probably more sharp mentally than he is, and workers overseas who will accept much cheaper pay.

Will he ever find another job? I worry about people in their 50s who may never work again after being squeezed out of the labor market. Now we have people wanting to raise the retirement age...granted not for people his age but people my age. What makes them think it'll be any easier in the future for people to find jobs in their 50s if they are laid off?

Sorry for the rambling post, I am just really concerned and wonder if other people are going through the same thing.

[sharesunited]

1. There is a career "arc" which peaks, then declines and trails off.

You find other work or become self employed, but for reduced compensation.

My 87yo mother-in-law is an IRS enrolled agent and prepares income tax returns.

[jtown1123]

2. I am thinking he might have to find another career. Good to know it worked out for your MIL.

[sharesunited]

6. Learn Spanish! Muchas oportunidades! Work in Panama during the winter ! n/t

[cheneyschernobyl]

134. Winter? In Panama? Yeah....right...

I was stationed there for 2 years. The only way you'll ever see any ice is in your drink. On an interesting note, my apartment building was across the street from where Noreiga hid while we blasted super loud rock and patriotic music 24/7.

[sharesunited]

141. Exactly! My glass is the only place I want to see ice.

[Citizen Worker]

113. The American way, work until you drop dead!

[SammyWinstonJack]

116. And until then, it's LIVE to WORK! What a GREAT COUNTRY!

:puke:

[femrap]

130. Or starve.....

or die of some disease.

Welcome to the 3rd world.

[amandabeech]

70. Unfortunately, these days finding other work or even becoming self employed

is very difficult. Your mother-in-law is amazing, but very few are like her. My Mom is 89 and she would have a difficult time returning part time to her profession of teaching because her hearing, sight and overall abilities are not up to it at her age.

[sam sarrha]

174. the Richest 1% hold 42% of americas financial wealth, 6 times what the bottom 80% hold, 20% hold 93%

so basically there is just no money to do do anything with.. thus the recession.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

the one thing you need to learn about the Doinionists.. is that wealth and power, especially power over others is proof of gods favor of a man, therefore it is a sin to tax a rich man/corporation. and Poverty, is proof of gods disfavor of a man..so it is a sin to help them.. and it is no coincidence that that is the Platform of the GOP.. it is how they vote 100% Goose Stepping down the Isle praising Jesus.
the GOP is a group of Mentally ill narcissistic OCD wealth and power Hoarders

this is due to the Dominionist influences in the government
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18897.htm

see post #173

[grahamhgreen]

148. WTF? Tell it to Mubarak.

[JDPriestly]

154. Even in good times, most employers won't go near anyone who is over 62.

And if you are looking for a job, forget it if you are over 50 in this market.

[northernlights]

169. That "arc" did not include being dumped on your ass during your peak earning years

in the past.

It does now. It's one thing to make a little less. It's another thing to make 80% less than what you used to make, competing for jobs at Walmarts, unable to downsize your life as fast as the economy has crashed and burned. I've been trying to sell my home for nearly 3 years -- only 1 person has even come to see it in that time. It's priced *very* competitively. Doesn't matter. Very few people are buying, those that are think they'll get a better deal buying a bankruptcy, or find out they can't get financing anyway.

The fact is that my generation has been and is being robbed of our retirement savings, our homes, and our careers, and thrown to the wolves. Starting your own business -- one that will support you and allow to to save for retirement -- is a huge gamble. Politicians *love* to cite private businesses as the "engine" of our economy. Despite the *fact* that the majority fail within 2 years.

I doubt your grandmother could earn a living wage doing tax returns. That is supplemental income at best.

I made the mistake of going back to school for Med Lab Tech. Worldwide shortage with 100% employment when I started the program 2 years ago. Now that I'm finishing, hospitals are dumping their techs and contracting them back at reduced wages with no benefits. The hospital where I'm doing my clinical training is building a replacement facility -- with fewer beds, bigger equipment and yes, they will be downsizing their staff.

Based on conversations I've heard there, the staff has caught on to what's coming. All 3 of us in training there were just "damned with faint praise" on our 1st rotation. So having sacrificed several years of my life and a large chunk of change -- I'm now looking at another failed career, this time before it even started. 2 other classmates in the same boat -- retirement savings lost and on the brink of losing our homes. Another set of young people who will graduate with far higher student loans than their salaries will ever support, which, again, they were lied to and tricked into taking. And one very small subset who either already work in the hospitals where they are training and have tuition paid...or who have *everything* paid for by the state and/or former unions, including a living stipend equal to their former salaries so they can focus on their studies.

Hindsight is 20/20. The "winners" were picked before we even started. A bunch of us were lied to, robbed and ruined to boost enrollment to pay for the select few (C+ students that are no threat).

I consider myself a little luckier than they are. My veterinarian provided me with a ticket out of here if it gets bad enough. And based on what my last 2 years have been, I have no reason to believe it might not get bad enough to take that ticket. I can tell you this. If I end up checking out, they will *not* get my house in lieu of paying the school loans. I was lied to into taking them out to begin with, worked my ass off to maintain a 4.0 in pre-med sciences and clinical sciences while working a shit job to support myself. I will burn the house to the fucking ground before they take it. That's how bad it is.

So, frankly, you can take your pablum and shove it where the sun don't shine.

[flamin lib]

3. Will he ever find another job?

I didn't. Unless you count the part time graveyard shift at the convenience store . . .

[madmom]

4. Don't want to sound snarky here, but...

where the hell have you been? This has been going on for quite some time and has been discussed here more than once. If you are over 50 and without a job, you should consider yourself retired, sorry, but that is a fact.:scared: :cry:

[jtown1123]

7. I've been highly aware of this problem for quite some time

but it is hitting home in a personal way. Everyone else in my family was able to work in their 70s. I just think things are getting worse. It wasn't always the case that being 50 and a worker was an automatic pink slip sentence.

[shanti]

63. actually, yes, it has

happened to my father back in the early 80's (raygun time). he got laid off at 53, never worked again. i'm sure dad wasn't alone.

[Sherman A1]

99. Exactly right

it has been going on for a very long time.

Get rid of the older and more expensive workers, replacing them with younger ones that can be worked to death on the promise of advancement or simply outsource their jobs.

[jtown1123]

103. That's true...I guess for some reason I always thought that applied

to workers 60 plus...now I think people in their 40s are having trouble. I guess we all are. Scary times.

[WestSeattle2]

129. I think 40 is when job searches start taking longer...and it's

really difficult to be job searching in your 50's and 60's - in most fields.

I can't help but think a lot of the age discrimination would go away if we had universal health care.

[Go2Peace]

136. It happened but it is not comparable. There were not near the # of older homeless

The comparison is flawed. In the 80's Temporary jobs were much more plentiful and much less specific in requirements. Service sector jobs often hired older people and they were far less competitive than now.

Life has changed, and losing your source of income at 50 is far more hazardous than in the past, and if people don't change it will be worse for future generations. The world will *never* see close to full employment again unless society makes dramatic shifts in it's thinking. And that is all because of something that is rarely discussed, productivity gains and automation.

[Grinchie]

151. Bingo on the Automation... We all should be retired by now

And spending our time learning, the arts, or anything we love to do.

Microelectronics are the handicraft of robots and printing presses, not human hands.

This money thing is overrated.

[snot]

100. hey, just want to say, thank you for focussing on this --

and I embrace all who come to see the light, however and whenever they get there.

[jtown1123]

102. It's something that affects everyone. You're welcome.

[pnwmom]

14. Where has the OP been? Busy growing up. His or her father is only 53,

so the OP is young.

[jtown1123]

36. I've been going to college, learning about the world, developing my opinions

growing up, getting a job, getting concerned for my future...that's where I've been.

[madmom]

50. I am only 56, both my kids in college, and they are both fully aware of

circumstances outside of their own environment. :shrug: This has been discussed here many times as well as on talking head shows, i just can't see how anyone can not be aware of it.

[Dappleganger]

56. Well he's aware of it now...

putting him down for not knowing about this before is helpful how?

[madmom]

59. I was not putting him down, that's why I said I didn't want to sound "snarky", just curious.

[jtown1123]

75. "he" is a "she" and I am curious why you think I wasn't aware of this problem?

I've always been an advocate for good jobs in America, punishing companies that outsource, etc.

[madmom]

92. From you previous post...

"wonder if other people are going through the same thing."

[jtown1123]

104. I meant I kind of wanted to hear from other people who are going through this

I wasn't wholly unaware this wasn't happening. I should have worded that better.

[October]

166. You worded it just fine. It's unfortunate that other replied with a "snarky" tone.

/nt

[pnwmom]

76. You said "where the hell have you been." That's a put-down.

If that's you being "curious," maybe you need some anger management classes.

[madmom]

93. It may have been anger if it was said in an angry way,thus the "don't want to sound snarky", but

jeesh,have you never been ask a question like that in your life and it was NOT meant in anger? People are so sensitive! Maybe that's part of the problem!:eyes:

edited for spelling

[pnwmom]

101. If you didn't want to sound snarky, you could have chosen different words.

On DU, at least, I don't think we have a problem with people being too sensitive -- certainly not this poster. You need a pretty thick skin to put up an OP here.

[blondeatlast]

108. "...people are so sensitive!" I'm not the only one calling you on your tone here.

Your username is tending appropriately at the moment.

[blondeatlast]

107. Your came across as snarky and arrogant, IMHO. I'm not sure you meant to be,

but "Where has the OP been?" is pretty, well, not pleasant...

[Dappleganger]

110. Your comment did seem condescending.

Looks as if others are in agreement, too.

[pnwmom]

73. You can't see how any young person might not be busy enough with their

own concerns to not be thinking a lot about the problems of those in middle age?

Are you aware that people in their 20's have a much higher unemployment rate than people in their 50's? I think many of them have good reason for not worrying too much about the problems of people in our generation -- they've got enough of our own.

[jtown1123]

78. Thanks for the support. I am always aware of the problems of all

generations with our abysmal unemployment crisis in America. My husband is unemployed, trust me, I know. I just wanted to bring up the fact that not only am I concerned for my generation, but also for my parents.

[pnwmom]

83. It must sometimes feel overwhelming, jtown1123,

to have to worry about both your husband and your parents. There was an article this year about how much anxiety college students are facing, too (worrying about student loans and jobs when they graduate.)

I wish the best to your whole family.

[jtown1123]

88. Thanks! We'll be OK.

Now I have my parents to worry about. I am so fortunate to have a job right now. I know my husband will get one soon (in the interview process now). I just get so frustrated that fixing our unemployment crisis is not something I ever hear real solutions for whether it's from our President or our Congress.

[madmom]

94. Not worry but be aware?

[jtown1123]

74. When did I say I wasn't aware of it? Why are you being so negative to me?

Sheesh.

[madmom]

95. In your very first post you said..

"I am just really concerned and wonder if other people are going through the same thing."
My interpretation of that is that you didn't know others were in the same boat.If that is not the case then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[jtown1123]

105. Apology accepted, That's not what I meant.

I meant, "hey who else is dealing with this now and what are your thoughts?"

[anafreeka]

149. Yes..

I had no problem understanding your comment. I think people pick apart posts sometimes instead of just reading the message. They make more out of something....that was never there!

[PSzymeczek]

144. Even though you can't

draw any retirement pay.

[chervilant]

152. Actually,

unemployment among 50+ YO women has seen an increase of 330% in the last decade. So, yes, our economic situation is worsening.

BTW, my students relentlessly tell me that I've helped them understand math better than any other teacher they've had, and I still can't get a teaching contract. Why? Because I'm 55.

I struggle with the likelihood that I'll become a burden to my family. As such, I'm contemplating my Kevorkian alternative. This inevitability is getting closer every day...

I am singularly unimpressed with our politicians du jour, and I have even less tolerance for the Corporate Megalomaniacs who've usurped our nation, our media, and the global economy.

"Primitive" societies extended far more respect and admiration to their elders--recognizing the wisdom that comes with age. Here in the US, we old people are less than nothing.

Sad, really...

[Jennicut]

5. CT is not in a good place right now with the job market.

We have a new Governor, which is good. But the cost of living here has always been very, very high. And we are not adding a lot of new jobs right now. Some people say our taxes are too high but really, everything goes in cycles and CT is experiencing a need to start over. We have a lot of insurance companies, drug companies, defense contractors, etc. here. But a lot of those jobs are being cut right now. My mother in law and brother in law work at Pratt and Whitney but they are losing jobs there too. I love Connecticut and just could never leave, having lived here all 35 years of my life. But I would recommend your father look in other states for work too.

[jtown1123]

8. Yeah, they are thinking ND or TX.

[Dappleganger]

57. They will have to become more fluid than that.

My suggestion is to sell the house and embrace the world of renting, then go where the jobs are. He'll probably use multiple head-hunters and need to reach out to old colleagues and college buddies from Link'd In and Facebook. My husband pretty much contacts every single person from his past (including past coworkers) for networking.

[jtown1123]

79. Yeah, I mean they are open to just about anywhere, but those

2 places in particular had a lot of openings in my Dad's field back when he was looking. They are big home owner types so I think renting would be a big adjustment but probably makes a lot more sense.

[Dappleganger]

96. Do they still have kids at home?

If not it makes it that much easier to release the feeling that one "must" own a home. Ours are still at home (although the oldest is 19 and in technical school) so that was an issue.

We had interviews all over the country and even in Canada so renting made more sense, but eventually he was offered a position through his contracting work locally. Much less pay (which has been quite difficult) but good benefits and we didn't have to sell a home in an area with a very troubled housing market.

[jtown1123]

106. Nope, no kids at home so that isn't the worry.

That's very interesting about Canada. Someone else mentioned that too.

[Dappleganger]

109. It was something we looked at quite seriously.

In the end the only reason we didn't go was because of our older kids' high school situation (one was going to graduate that year and the other was one year behind her). The other two kids would have been fine (middle school). There are plenty of pharma companies in Canada and while their pay may not be the exact same as the US, they typically make up for it with benefits. It's something to at least discuss with them.

[femrap]

131. Age works against someone

when considering moving to another country. Forty is the cut-off for many countries.

[Generic Other]

9. "probably more sharp mentally than he is"

A sad and probably erroneous assumption to make. I am mentally much sharper than I was a noob to my profession. Those who master their trades are usually far more competent than know-it-all apprentices. Americans need to quit just buying into this idea that older workers have less ability. That is a lie told by management that doesn't want to pay them commensurate to their experience. Throw away society. First they threw away the undereducated and I said nothing. Then they threw away the elderly and I said nothing. Now they are throwing away everyone and the only people with a say work call centers in India.

[jtown1123]

10. I didn't mean this as blanket statement for all older workers, my Dad admitted he struggles with

certain things in his work like experiments and calculations that he didn't used to. I definitely agree that it is a fallacy that all older workers have less ability. I was just speaking from this specific experience.

[eridani]

124. I found that to be the case also. However, there are some compensations in

--having a much broader overview of technical issues.

[Bragi]

21. "A sad and probably erroneous assumption": No, not really

I'm 60, have been a "knowledge" professional all my life, and am very aware that while I have experience, and maybe even "wisdom", my ability to read and research and analyse is not what it was.

My wife and I recently moved house, which required me to go through boxes and boxes of old material, much of written by me. It was quite an eye opener, and I realized that there is simply no way today that I have the energy and discipline to do the work I did 10 years ago.

I think it's easy for younger people to imagine that they'll be able to work forever in whatever their chosen field might be. This just isn't so, and I find that a lot of the rhetoric to the contrary is coming from right wingers wanting to cut benefits, from young people who don't understand what aging means, or oldsters in tough situations who basically have no choice but to press on with working.

So I think the OP is correct to be concerned. It is probably a wise thing for young people with parents in that situation to understand that they may be called upon to look after their elders in way that my generation didn't have to, if they can.

(As for me, I managed to end up with enough money to retire reasonably early. I attribute this not to my hard work or brilliance, but to the fact that I never developed terribly expensive tastes, have a wife who knows how to save, and I've been very lucky.)

[SoCalDem]

27. Anyone who graduated college/job-training/whatever in the pre-computer age

is likely to have a shorter career than they planned for , unless they are very lucky.

You CAN teach "old dogs new tricks", but there is the time issue. When you go to school for years, or spend years on the job advancing through the various stages, you are also on a "family-track" (usually). The time, money & energy only goes just so far. People cannot perpetually go to school to keep up AND have a full-time job and a family life.

As newer technologies come along, there is a whole NEW group graduating all the time, with skill sin YOUR field, PLUS the new technologies that they have been using for a very long time, and with which they are very comfortable.

It's very much like learning a foreign language.
You may be a great Math teacher, but try teaching math & explaining the formulas, in say..Urdu...or Farsi..or Greek.

Or you may be a great doctor, but if you were plunked down in a foreign country where you did not know the language, you would have to become fluent in the language, before you could even take the tests they might require, in order for you to even be licensed there.

Companies no longer feel much of a connection to their employees, so if a new boss comes along, they are looking at the bottom line. They will jettison the older more "rigid" employees, in favor of the younger ones who are familiar & comfortable with the latest in technology.

Not only are the newer ones more flexible with time and pay demands, they are also less costly to insure, and will not go nuts if their hours get cut dramatically or if they get laid off from time to time...(they can always move back in with their parents.)

[patrice]

11. Many of us Boomers need to start forming co-operatives of various kinds.

The few calls for interview which I have received always trigger in me the hypothetical: "Okay, so I jump through all of these hoops and change my life all around AGAIN for this employer and actually succeed in getting this job, what's in it for me, what can I count on and for how long can I count on it?" My wages have been going down ever since 2001 and everything else has been going up. If I can't get back to what I was making in 2001, shouldn't I be thinking about a different KIND of job now? One that's scaled differently relative to the rest of my life and one I have more control over?

[shanti]

64. yes

:thumbsup: i like the idea of boomer coops.

[patrice]

98. One of the things that I like about this idea is that, as I understand the economics of it,

it begins with real-estate and the prices are good and improving right now.

Google co-operative living and intentional communities and you'll see that there are such projects which have been in existence for quite some time. I have been aware of them for about 15 years. The one in Lawrence, KS used to go around KC giving informative workshops on the what/where/why/how of forming cooperative living groups. We need more of that sort of thing. I, for one, am very interested in professional co-operatives, preferably professional cooperatives that could also live cooperatively. There is much to be learned and taught about the possibilities. I have actually just begun a line of inquiry in another part of the country, which I have experience of, where the concepts are not as alien as they are in the Midwest.

[shanti]

118. yes

i know of the intentional communities website, good information there. i've been looking for a sheep/wool farm coop to possibly join on the west coast, but have been unable to find one. perhaps in the future...

[patrice]

119. I am noticing cooperatives mentioned in connection with the hemp market here in U.S., but

they have Chinese connections too, so that may be what they are referring to.

[femrap]

132. I was under the impression

that hemp production was still illegal in the US. My dream is a Boomer coop...off the grid as much as possible...and self-sustaining. Farmland is the only land that has kept its value and in fact has gone up. Chinese have bought lots of farm land here in the US. They have lots of people to feed back home.

They'll make us farm and take the food to China. They think in Generational times....not quarterly like we do.

Maybe Boomers will be the ones to stand up and say 'ENOUGH.'

[patrice]

146. That's more possible than most people think, especially with the big pressure to privatize

everything + the Republican's Derivative 2008 Crash, what foreign ownership is there in partnership with American financial resources becomes stronger and more powerful by controlling our national debt, public and private, add to that the further commoditization of vital goods and services and the move toward so-called state's rights that we are seeing here in Kansas, and you have a qualitatively different American life.

Yes, the special experiences of each generation entail special responsibilities in response to those experiences and with the Boomers on the leading edge of this new wave of financial damage, their responsibilities are proportionate to the level of losses we have been experiencing. And responsibility implies, not just cobbling things together to repeat the cycle that has hurt so many, but to actually change what we can of what caused this to happen and, thus, provide something for subsequent generations to use to do better for themselves and others.

[hfojvt]

12. I have an older cousin who is 53

Years ago, an engineer told me "oh, a chemist will always be able to find work" but after he was laid off he had a tough time of it. A friend found him trying to sell shoes in the mall, and suggested he try teaching. So he went back to school for certification and got a teaching job. He is said to be happy in his new profession. This was when he was in his mid 40s though.

I think about ten years ago I was reading how Connecticut had a program of teaching certification. People with other degrees can start teaching and gain provisional certification by taking a few courses. There is supposed to be a future shortage of science teachers, so your dad might look in that direction. It is kinda hard to outsource teachers, although I guess Bill Gates is sort of trying to find a way.

[jtown1123]

37. Thanks for the tip, I will pass it along

[radical noodle]

90. Community colleges & small universities

I know a few engineers who became instructors at technical/vocational schools, community colleges and small universities. I don't know about all states, but in some, even a teaching certificate was not required for them if they had a degree in the courses they taught. It might not be full time, but it could perhaps lead to a brighter future for him.

Good luck to your dad.

[kevinbgoode]

62. This is a very good idea. . .and one I've embraced

I had a partner who seemed to want to move every three-four years for his own career advancement, which often required that my own career be interrupted. . .sigh. And suddenly, when I was hitting 40, opportunities to start over in the field just dried up - I struggled to learn new technologies to keep pace with changes in the profession.

What DID work for me was that, while dealing with a series of "temporary" jobs, I finished a master's degree and parlayed that into an adjunct teaching position - and was both popular and successful in doing so at a major community college. Adjunct pay isn't grand, but it was a foot in the door and community colleges often like older, experienced professionals. Even better, you can sometimes get extended benefits like tuition reimbursement so you can pursue a PhD and go after more secure, tenure-possible positions. IT helps keep you fresh and interested in the field because you mingle with both younger and experienced researchers all over the world and, since you are in school, it helps you brush up your own skills and expand on your experiences in ways that younger students can't do.

Even better, it can help cut health insurance costs. Even going to school part-time means that you have to pay university health-insurance premiums, which are FAR less expensive than those in the adult market. I've known people who enroll in one or two credit hour courses every semester because the tuition/fees is actually much less expensive than buying health insurance. This provides some level of security in that area while giving someone a chance to forge ahead.

Also, workers in their 50's have a skill-set that is often lacking in many younger people who, while they may be technology savvy, aren't very experienced in critical thinking skills in a practical setting. And those critical thinking skills are becoming more important because they require a disciplined mind AND patience with problem solving.

[seleff]

97. Schools where I'm at are not hiring 50 something teachers with PhDs

I went through a career moment of truth in my 40s. Many of us move for spouse' jobs, and I made one back into academia from industry fully aware (and fearful) that my survival would depend on getting a federally funded grant. Well I didn't in the short time I had so I went into a teacher training program and got certified. It was not easy breaking in, even as a science teacher. I got lucky and was recognized by a principal during a long-term sub position and I was offered a contract in a "Title 1" funded school, but I was 48 then. My wife got a new position in Pharma and we were off to the Northeast, so I resigned (my tenured)position lured by the news articles of the shortage of science teachers even in Philly suburbs. Recertifying in a new state all over again and applying for Bio or Chem teaching positions with a PhD after moving at 51 has been no picnic. I rarely get called in for an interview. When it has happened I am competing with 10-20 interviewees even for a long-term sub position. The interviewers think I have been contaminated by my higher-ed teaching experience (higher-ed folks think I am contaminated by my secondary ed experience so I am excluded from FT positions there) and that won't be able to simplify things and make them understandable for HS students. But in all honesty, I have little feedback to go on from HR folks or administrators--they never tell you anything about why you were rejected. Although I hear stories from colleagues that lead me to believe that schools are hiring kids as science teachers that struggled to pass college content classes, they won't give a 50 something guy with perfect praxis scores a second look because of age and having to pay a few thousand more (probably less than 5-10K). I have been applying for 5 years now while I teach at 3 colleges as a PT adjunct for $10-13K/semester, no benefits.

[BeyondGeography]

13. Raises hand

It's very daunting. Not just cheap overseas labor but fundamental technological change is very destabilizing as well. Those of us tied to old media, e.g., are looking at a lot of mayhem in our 50's. Incomes in a downward spiral and jobs disappearing all the time. Online ads get 10 cents on the dollar compared with print in my field, and that's the only part of the business that's growing.

I knew this would happen, dating back to my 20's. Not the technology part per se, but the mirage of the 401K, deficits that would be used to put pressure on SS at a time when the whole country is getting older. And once you hit a certain age and income level, companies always take out the knife. So I have been careful to keep the overheads low. Never bought the McMansion and stayed out of debt. Still, it's an adventure as I'm only 51 and already feeling the heat. There are so many of us; is it possible to restore some measure of employment and financial stability for us? Not really seeing it.

[jtown1123]

44. Yeah, my parents don't have any debt either so they are

pretty fortunate in that respect. They also never spend much on expensive furniture, vacations, etc.

[dkf]

15. First time I've heard of scientific work being outsourced. Damn.

Before it was IT guys and engineers, then Lawyers. Now scientists?

[pnwmom]

18. It's been happening for a long time.

[dkf]

25. Maybe so but where is the reporting?

[pnwmom]

30. Don't you remember hearing about how

when the Soviet Union broke up, we suddenly had access to all those cheap but highly trained Russian scientists? Lots of technical jobs were outsourced then, and that's just one example.

[girl gone mad]

115. here..

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

[Zoeisright]

16. Um, people don't lose their mental sharpness at 53.

That's how old I am, and I put my critical thinking skills and quickness against any 22 year old.

[Bragi]

24. Tell me that when your 63 /nt

[jtown1123]

38. I'm not saying that is true for everyone but my Dad has said he has less

mental energy for complex experiments and calculations than he used to...

[RobinA]

43. Me Too

I'm 53. I finished a Masters when I was 50 and feel I'm still on the upward swing when it comes to critical thinking and processing speed. Do I forget peoples' names? Yeah. But generally I can still surprise myself with the things I come up with and find myself thinking in ways I don't think I would have 10 years ago. Must be all that practice in flexible thinking I indulged in back in the '70's finally paying off.

[Jennicut]

142. My mental sharpness has dropped off significantly since 22.

And I am only 35! Maybe it has to do with having young children...

Seriously, my Dad is 63 and still very mentally sharp and is very valued at his job at AT&T. He started out working for Southern New England Telephone at 25 and has been there ever since (before I was born, believe it or not). I don't see my husband or I having careers that last that long today. It just doesn't work like that anymore. No one in my generation or the generation behind me believe that job security or social security will be around for us.

[pnwmom]

17. You have good reason for concern, but I have only one small quibble --

at 53, your father is still mentally sharp -- any edge that a younger person might have in a recent degree would be balanced by all the experience your dad has had.

[jtown1123]

48. My Dad told me that he doesn't have the mental energy like he used to

Because he has worked 60-70+ hours a week since he was in his 20s, it has taken a toll. Is he more knowledgable than younger people? Absolutely. But he says he has difficulty getting things right the first time like he used to.

[okieinpain]

19. he'll have to accept a temporary job, and fund his retirement

himself. I know because I'm there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Has he thought of looking overseas? Seriously

The most recent MinnPost (an online Twin Cities newspaper published by veteran reporters laid off from local papers) contains a readers' contribution about just that.

http://www.minnpost.com/community_voices/2011/02/02/25407/economic_refugees_americans_living_abroad_for_financial_survival

The New Scientist has worldwide listings for scientific jobs.

[jtown1123]

40. Interesting, thanks

[shanti]

66. has he considered emigration?

i believe that canada only takes immigrants with "skills". otherwise, it's pretty hard to become a citizen there.

[jtown1123]

81. hmm, Canada eh? I'll ask him.

[CountAllVotes]

22. many, too many

I know of many that were laid off a few years ago and cannot find work.

As for not being "as sharp mentally", I don't know about that one. Older workers have experience that is invaluable. One person that comes to mind was laid of a few years ago and is a highly skilled electrician. Said person went on and obtained a general contractor's license and makes furniture with something called his own two hands.

Women over 50 in this field still commonly work as "Administrative Assistants (i.e. secretaries)" and bring their old skills to a work place in need of people that are proficient in reading and writing and know the rules of grammar. Frankly, I am appalled by the literacy skills I see today. It is shameful that older workers are not respected for these skills that it seems few younger people have managed to refine nor care to refine.

Many workers at the age of 50 are doing very well physically. It isn't until you get into the late 60s that larger problems seem to appear.

As for your father, all you can do is hope that is able to take what skills he has and find work in perhaps another field.

This is not the America I grew up believing in and it is frightening to me I must admit.

:dem:

[jtown1123]

47. A lot of people are mad about my "mentally sharp" comment, but I

am speaking from my specific experience. My Dad told me he doesn't have the mental energy for complex experiments and calculations like he used to... probably because he has worked 60-70 weeks his entire life. I didn't mean that as a swipe to all 50 + folks. My bosses are in their 50s and their wisdom and savviness are not qualities I see in people my generation, because we haven't been working as long. It's just sad that as a society, we cast off people for their age. I don't think the age factor is why my Dad is being laid off...Pfizer makes ridiculous money. They probably just want to keep paying their higher ups 300 times what they pay the lower workers.

[CountAllVotes]

52. that does not sound right to me

Has your father taken this up with his doctor? He could have a problem. I know of people in their 50s that have returned to college. I also know of people in their 60s that have obtained graduate degrees. One of my former bosses is 71 and still publishing scientific research papers and has obtained 4 honorable doctorates in the past 15 years!

Something there does not sound right to me.

If he is bummed out because he might not be able to find another job that pays $300,000 a year or whatever he now earns, well all I can say is welcome to the real world. Most women have been in this boat their entire lives regardless of age.

Do your father and yourself a favor and insist that your father gets checked out. This is not normal for someone that is only 53 years old; maybe he is depressed (?).

:dem:

[jtown1123]

82. Whoa now, why do you think he makes six figures?

He doesn't have a problem, it's probably just a side effect from working long hours for 25+ years. It's not something that hinders him too much, he just says it takes him longer to do things than he used to. That's his own personal situation. You point out your friends who are getting doctorates, etc. That's awesome. They are not my Dad and everyone is different.

[SOS]

23. A side note

With the internet, the potential employer can find your age in about a minute.
I'm 50 and have been applying for jobs for months.
Not a single response.
I'm beginning to suspect that they Google me, find out that I'm a fossil and throw my resume in the trash.

[LibertyLover]

26. My husband is 55 and is unemployed

He can't find a job, not even in the service industry, let alone his specialty of neurological diagnostics and monitoring. I'm sorry that your father may loose his job to offshoring and I'm even sorrier to tell you that it's probably more or less permanent. I'm resigned to being the bread winner in our family and having to work far longer than I had ever wanted to. I just hope that when I have to retire from my current job at age 62 in 5 years, I'm able to find something in my field, but know the chances are slim to none. Workers in the US are so screwed.

[jtown1123]

39. Yeah, I am thinking my mom will probably be the primary bread winner now

which sucks because she is in a much lower paying field than my dad

[Jim__]

28. The exporting of US jobs will not stop unless we stop it.

The US government is now owned outright by corporations. If we want to stop them from exporting our jobs, we're going to have to take back the government - and the current electoral process is not sufficient to accomplish that.

[Johonny]

29. This is generally bad business

the reason to keep older workers is the reason to keep older people in general. They are valuable source of knowledge. Even when they slow down physically they often are still mentally sharp. Their experience in general pays off, because hardly is there ever a problem in a long standing business that is "new". Removing you older employees is often removing your corporate memory. It might be a great short term corporate strategy, but is generally a terrible long term strategy. Of course the problem with modern American corporation is they are almost all short term strategy.

[Bragi]

31. Long term, old people just get older

Most societies have no problem understanding that older people need help and support. The idea that the new crop of oldsters is sharp and healthy and can work a lot longer than previous generations and look after themselves is just wishful thinking.

The U.S needs to get a grip on what it actually intends to do with and about older people. If nothing is done, the problem will solve itself, at horrible human cost.

(I say this as 60 year old who, mostly due to pure good luck, is financially secure. I worry very much about my oldster cohort, however, who have mostly been stripped of financial security through no fault of their own.)

[Johonny]

32. I agree

what is happening in the work place is happening throughout society. (I work in an odd industry that still highly values older workers and thus has a really high average worker age.)

On the plus side, in America older people vote and thus do have a large political voice still.

On the negative side, they clearly are a segment of society under attack politically.

Politically it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Can politicians stay in office by attacking societal support for older America? 30 years ago no one thought they could, today? IDK

[femrap]

133. What is the 'odd'

industry in which you work?

[jtown1123]

45. I agree. My Dad works longer and harder than anyone, which is why

he used to weather the massive layoff scares in the past. He did the work of 2 people for the price of one. Knowing Pfizer's reputation, they tend to move people when they buy another company, then just lay off all those people in a year or two.

[Generic Other]

51. Some young people are unreliable, less well-educated and inexperienced

And they suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect at times.

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to appreciate their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to the situation in which less competent people rate their own ability higher than more competent people. It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence. Competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. 'Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Older students in academia very often perform well above their younger counterparts, yet they tend to express much more doubt about their abilities.

[patrice]

112. That's more widespread than is commonly understood, because people don't know what they don't know.

Anyone who has administered business communications for a group, even a group of professionals, knows that people are almost completely unaware of how ambiguous, incomplete, and down-right wrong they can be and, if they are aware of it at all, they think it just doesn't matter.

[Generic Other]

120. Catch 22

If you think you are insane, you really aren't.

[femrap]

135. I live in

Dumfukistan, the former state of Ohio. When I discovered the Dunning-Kruger effect, I was so relieved. It explained everything to me. Dumfukistanis are so stupid they don't realize how stupid they are.

(It's not all Ohioans, but I think all the smart ones have left....we lost 2 Congressional seats in the last census). I really wan tto leave this state....go to a Boomer Coop and get off the grid and live sustainably.

[RobinA]

53. Corporate Memory

In my early '40's I worked for a large IT company that was the result of a merge between two old technology companies. Very military-industrial complex. Upon the merger they took to shedding corporate memory at an alarming rate. I worked in the legal department and was involved in litigation that had been brought against the company. Litigation lags WAAAAY behind the present. Most of the stuff we were getting sued for wasn't even currently in production, it could have been decades old. I was there for 12 years and it got progressively more difficult to defend the lawsuits because the company kept disappearing the engineers and researchers who developed the stuff. We had to reinvent the wheel - half-assedly - just about every day.

For my part, among other things I kept a large database of cases in a mass tort litigation against us. I had it quite organized and reliable as a source of info frequently required by management. I was laid off and here was this database that had consumed many hours of my and other people's time and which had to be kept up in order to stay accurate. If let go, management requests for info would involve manually going through boxes and boxes of paper. I tried to interest about 6 people in the simple steps needed to maintain it, simply because I didn't want to see my coworkers have to spend the hours it would take to extract the info manually. Nobody really wanted to hear it, so I said Screw it. I left and took with me my little chunk of corporate memory. Couple years later a friend still there told me they had temps going through boxes to figure out how much we had paid out to defend the litigation. Had the database been maintained it would have been about a three click calulation. I just laughed. Idiots.

[ljm2002]

33. "younger people who are probably more sharp mentally than he is"...

...AARRGGHH! You do realize, don't you, that this is exactly the kind of thinking that makes it harder for your 53-year-old dad to find a job?

[Bragi]

35. Not really

Sorry, but young people ARE mentally sharper, have more energy, more focus, mental endurance, etc. and that's a fact.

I fear more those who claim that this to be false than I do those who acknowledge it as reality.

[Mopar151]

58. Really?

I've worked with plenty of young guys who are as sharp as a marble. They may have mental horsepower, but I swear they've never had a coherent, logical thought, and have very little knowledge base to draw on.
And focus? Either their ADD is kickin' in, or they're hung over like a dog from drinkin' on top of the Adderall.

[ljm2002]

65. More energy?

Maybe, although they tend to have more distractions as well. More focus? That really depends on the person. More mental endurance? Rarely, actually I have found that more older folks win out in endurance, or stick-to-it-iveness, i.e. they don't give up as easily.

As for fearing folks for their observations, well, I don't fear your opinions and you have no reason to fear mine. I just think that ageism is not a good approach.

In any case, I have certainly observed people who appear to work faster, and yet when all is said and done, they were going 85 mph in the wrong direction while their colleagues were going a steady 45 mph in the right direction. Guess who got there first?

[Missy Vixen]

68. Take a look at what's been going on at Microsoft over the years if this is true

>I fear more those who claim that this to be false than I do those who acknowledge it as reality.<

They may make buckets of cash, but I wonder how things would have been different if they had a less messed-up corporate culture, mostly driven by those under 30 who feel that all their decisions are unassailable...

[mimitabby]

117. yeah right.

I love these big generalizations.

I think I could come up with some 50 somethings (and even 60 somethings!) that are sharper than some 20 somethings, in terms of intellect, mental acuity and even physical aptitude!


These generalizations BITE
the fact is

older workers COST more. My husband is routinely harassed at his office (he's 60) because he can't do "enough"
if they let him go, they could hire two 30 year olds for the same pay he's getting and yes, the two of them WILL
be able to do more work than he can.

[femrap]

137. If you had watched

Keith Olbermann a couple of days before he left MSNBC, you would have learned that young people today have NO critical thinking skills.

I think all that energy and focus and endurance you have keeps you running in circle after circle.

You'll be old someday....or maybe not.

[shrike]

172. There's a lot to be said for life experience

There are things that can only be learned in the school of hard knocks. And you won't know them at 22. You can't; it's impossible, you have to live them to know them.

I see it every day; I am an independent contractor. Older and younger workers both bring important skills to the workplace. The right manager could have a dynamite enterprise if he knew how to use skills of both. But no one seems to bother.

[jtown1123]

41. If you would have read my earlier responses, this is something my Dad TOLD me

about himself...not something I would have thought.

[ljm2002]

67. Fair enough...

...but still, in my opinion too many people, possibly including your dad, buy into the "common wisdom" and thereby limit themselves more than they should.

In any case, there are many advantages that older people and professionals have, so I would recommend concentrating on those when one is evaluating one's position. Don't mean to derail your thread, though -- this is a side issue to the reason for your OP. Peace.

[LibDemAlways]

34. Your dad should not give up hope of finding another job.

My husband was laid off a year ago at 59. Not great timing as we have a daughter about to start college! After looking for 6 months and finding nothing, he hooked up with a former co-worker who helped him land another position. Granted, the pay sucks - he took a 40% cut - but he is working in his field - software engineering.

If your dad is let go, tell him to start networking immediately. Contact anyone and everyone he's ever worked with - people who know the quality of his work.

It is a very tough market for "older" workers. But it's not impossible. I wish your dad all the best.

[jtown1123]

42. That's great, thanks. He actually knows someong who invented

an artificial sweetener that's healthier than splenda, so maybe he could work for him. Networking is definitely key. I am just so worried for this country in general. When will we ever do something proactive about outsourcing?

[mimitabby]

46. guys like your dad

I'm a little older than your dad, and while he might be forced into an earlier retirement than he wants, I think that OUR generation ( your father's and mine) are a lot better off than you guys. He's had a career and he's earned good money.
Too many people your age don't even have choices, so how will you be able to build what he already has?

[jtown1123]

49. I probably won't be able to. My parents are fortunate in that

they were able to pay off a mortgage, build a savings account, etc. But how can anyone live for 30 years on anything but savings?

[pnwmom]

86. Your parents should have some kind of income also from Social Security

in another 14 years (earlier if they take a reduced payment).

My m.i.l. and mother have both been living on savings for decades (one of them is in her 90's.) It can be done if your house is paid for and you're frugal.

[jtown1123]

91. Yeah, my mom asked me about SS today

Their house is paid for too. They'll be OK. Everything worked out last time, it's just crazy they have to do this all over again... and in such a short time. I wanted them to rent with this new job, but they are so against it. Maybe they'll change their minds next time.

[eridani]

126. Very true. I keep telling younger people that they will need Social Security

--and Medicare much more than we do.

[oldlib]

54. I was forced out at age 62.

I was an Engineer in Silicon Valley and with my reasonably high salary and my age, the company could replace me with a younger, cheaper and more aggressive Engineer. There was no hope of finding work, although I made the attempt. I retired and took early SS and I have not worked since that 1995 layoff.

[Dappleganger]

61. Sounds similar to my father-in-law.

He was forced out of his job a bit earlier, but at that time took contracting work until he hit 65. From what I recall he was laid off from several employers during his 50's, then eventually went to contracting. He was lucky though as dh's mom had a great paying job in DC and they could also use their house as an ATM (which they did, but paid it off). He recently told me that he was pretty damn lucky to have had it happen when it did and not NOW (where they would be sooo screwed).

Edited to add this was in the mid-to-late-90's.

[Dappleganger]

55. My husband works for big pharma...

of course your dad should be worried, particularly at his age and paygrade. We have experienced multiple layoffs with unemployment in between. Your father will probably have to settle for contract work or change fields entirely. Unfortunately with R&D (my husband was in R&D with J&J before) the companies are cutting their research budgets so far back and thousands of PhD's and researchers are being let go. Some jobs are moving elsewhere, but for the most part with R&D they are just cutting those departments right and left.

There is little choice left but to take *anything* which comes your way--and I do mean anything. There is absolutely no such thing as company loyalty even to credentialed workers who have the company millions of dollars or made wonderful discoveries.

[jtown1123]

84. Oh absolutely. R&D is sadly finished I'm afraid. Contract work seems

to be where it's at now.

[theophilus]

60. Boomers need to "rise up" and unite in a political movement to pressure

BOTH parties to do the right thing for America.

[jtown1123]

85. Yes!

[L0oniX]

69. So young people are mentally sharp? Have you seen how they drive a car lately?

[roxiejules]

71. Heard a rumor

just last week that Hewlett Packard was laying off all their workers over 50.

See attached class action lawsuit complaint for details on how older workers are targeted:

http://www.thomaswilliamslaw.com/_assets/downloads/Carter-vs-HewlettPackard-Complaint.pdf

[jtown1123]

89. Interesting, thanks for sharing.

[Dappleganger]

111. Not surprising...

and pursuing age discrimination lawsuits are extremely difficult, unfortunately.

[bvar22]

72. Grim market for over 55.

Instead of accepting minimum wage, no benefits employment in The City,
my wife & I sold everything, and bought very inexpensive Bubble Proof property in the rural South...
(low taxes, low Winter energy overhead, low cost of living, long growing season, abundant clean water)

The property was in ruins...the dilapidated cabin inhabited by goats and transients for 10 years.
We spent our time & sweat rehabbing and improving the property, figuring that we could beat the minimum wage in Value Added,
and have a place to live at the same time.
So far, so good.
Using mostly labor, scrounging for bargain materials, and minimal power tools, we have turned it into an appealing rural retirement property with a large Raised Bed Organic Veggie Garden, Chickens, Bee Hives, Blue Berry and fruit tree orchard, and on property Spring water.

We realize we are very lucky to have this option.
We are both in good health,
and have a complementary skill set to make this fun...most of the time.

With a low cost of living overhead, we can live fairly well as long as we stay healthy.

[saras]

122. You call it luck, but it looks like wisdom

That sounds like a truly enviable position from which to live a good life. But you gotta admit it would have been easier, and more fun, if you'd started when you were in your twenties, right?

Being over 50, I'm trying really hard to sympathize with most of the posters in this thread, but I'm failing. They're losing their jobs with big pharma, the MIC, etc. - and then complaining in other threads "what can we to to get big pharma, the MIC, etc. to stop screwing us over?" Duh, like how about NOT GIVING THEM 60-70 HOURS PER WEEK FOR MOST OF YOUR LIFE?

[Honeycombe8]

77. "younger people who are probably more sharp mentally than he is"

That phrase in your post says it all.

First...your dad is only 53. There is nothing wrong with him mentally, unless he has some medical condition that affects his mind. He is every bit as sharp mentally as someone decades younger.

Second...your post says WHY your dad will have trouble getting another job. It's because younger people, like yourself, THINK that there's something wrong with being over 50. If that is true, then it is only fair that your dad NOT get a job, when competing with younger workers. Since he would be, after all, not as mentally sharp as the younger applicants. (If what you said is true. which it isn't.)

It is ironic that your post epitomizes the same attitude (innocent though it is) that explains fully why older workers have trouble getting employment. It's not based on fact or logic or reality. It's a perception by younger people, who are the ones doing the hiring.

I am older than 53. I don't know about NOW, but at 53, I would've pit my brain against anyone half my age. No one, nowhere, in the workplace would have anything on me in the brain department (at my job level). I was the best at my job then, in a number of ways, incl. the brain department.

Younger people have a propensity not to get enough sleep (which affects brain function), party more (which affects brain function), be caught up in having babies and learning how to deal with in-laws and such (which affects brain function), learning how to get along with others (which affects brain function because of distraction). Been there, done that. I am fully focused, dedicated, experienced...I can do my job in my sleep, but I don't because I still love it, have a knack for it, and my job duties are interesting and varied. I am constantly learning new things...and I learn them on my own (I have a knack for certain things that others seem not to have). I don't have to get distracted by working sleepy during the day because I didn't get enough sleep, I'm pregnant, I am focused on learning how to get along with that B of a coworker, etc., etc. Been there, done that.

But it's true...and older worker, once laid off, doesn't find new work for another year or so, if then. Some never find work. But let's not forget that sometimes, just sometimes, they were laid off because they weren't really very good at their jobs. So THEY will have the hardest time find new employment.

[pnwmom]

80. She's answered that type of comment at least a couple of times.

For example, #38 above.

[jtown1123]

87. I just see evidence piling up that older workers are experiencing

unprecedented age discrimination in the work force because of our unemployment crisis...so I have reason to be concerned he will have a difficult time finding employment. Just about everyone I work with is 50+ and they are the sharpest bunch of people I know. I was speaking from my personal situation that my Dad, from having worked 60+ hours a week for the past 25 years, feels a bit burned out mentally. My dad is really good at his job and has survived many layoff scares in the past, it's just the way this company treats its workers is obvious they tend to layoff the groups of employees from the company they bought.

[femrap]

138. Our pathetic

Att'y General, Eric Holder, is not going to do a damn thing about Age Discrimination in the workforce. Corporations rule the world...they pay for the political campaigns. They tell Obama how high to jump. It's fascism.

Maybe the Boomers will have to UNITE AGAIN like we did against the Vietnam War, Discrimination, etc. The Boomers are the largest population group in the US...just like a big rat in the stomach of a snake. We're that big....no other generation comes close.

Since none of us have jobs, we might as well unite and hit the streets. Egypt has me all excited. I'm ready. How about you?

[Fire1]

165. I'm all for that! I didn't sacrifice to get graduate degrees and

pay off mountains of student loans just to get pushed out at 58! It is definitely a growing trend. Just recently, a friend of mine was a "head hunter" making 6 figures and was laid off. Another was the ONLY ONE in her department who was laid off and it's ALL AGE DISCRIMINATION! I contacted EEOC and they were more than willing to take my case and your file is supposed to be sealed to employers but I don't buy that for a second. Under less daunting circumstances employers can make your life hell. I think we're all tired of fighting but I'm willing to march one last time. It'll bring back fond memories.:toast:

[femrap]

180. I hate

Corporations....they eat one's soul, gnaw on one's heart and smash one's brain. I, too, am 58 and I doubt if I'll ever have a decent job again.

All of this crap from Obama about being an 'entrepreneur.' He makes it sound so easy. Even if one does come up with a great idea, what banks are lending these days????

I have a graduate degree as well...that and $2.00 might get a coffee at Starbucks....like I go out for coffee.

All the political meetings I go to are usually dominated by Boomers...there are some young people, but The Boomers were raised on 'question authority.' And we have paid into SS our entire working lives....and now they want to screw us. Piss on 'em.

I don't believe the Boomers will take this. That Obama reduced the Payroll Tax (most sheeple don't even realize this is SS...they think it's some other tax) by 2% was the beginning of the end. Why would he do something like that??? It makes no sense unless he wants to destroy it.

Actions speak louder than words.

Get out your pitchforks!!!

[Honeycombe8]

177. If he's burned out, then he shouldn't get the job, when competing with others who aren't.

If I were hiring, I wouldn't hire a burned out worker. It's as simple as that.

But I think the main reason older workers can't find a new job, or can't find one for a looooong time is .... insurance and medical concerns. It IS a fact that certain conditions start coming home to roost after the age of 50. Statistics bear that out. Diabetes, heart trouble, high cholesterol, cancer....all these things are more likely to happen after the age of 50. I think that's the main reason. And it is a reality.

Still, plenty of older workers do find new employment, at a lower level and/or for much less $ (which I would be more than happy to take, if I were looking for work).

I've survived several layoffs. But I gave this a lot of thought...what I would do to find new employment. So I sorta made plans...large nest egg; places to look for work (doing absolutely anything...I'd go for Burger King, but they like young people, I think), etc.

I wish your dad the best.

[Citizen Worker]

114. Another issue rarely discussed when it comes to deindustrialization, plant closures, etc., is the

eventual loss of the skill/knowledge base. At some point we will lose the knowledge and experience to do anything. Shortages of skilled labor are beginning to materialize in some skilled trades. How many young people not wanting to go to college will enter an apprenticeship program in a trade where there is chronic high unemployment? The same will happen in advanced fields such as that of the OP's father. At 53 he probably has 25 years experience as an analytical chemist. If we export the jobs in that field students will not enter college to study chemistry and why would they? We not only lose this chemist's years of training and experience but the job itself that he expected to retire from someday and to be taken over by a much younger and less experienced chemist is gone for good. We are rapidly descending into third world status unless we reverse course and soon.

[patrice]

121. The loss of that skill/knowledge base = loss of REAL value that propogates throughout all

systems. In a weak economy, you really CAN'T afford to lose value indiscriminately. The whole aenemic thing could come down, starved for innovation that is rooted in reality, rather than in "dreams".

[eridani]

123. A legitimate worry. I was in the same situation in 2008, but was able to take early retirement

R&D in this country is being decimated, and the PTB wonder why young people show so little interest in scientific careers.

If you care about your folks, fight for Social Security and Medicare--you are likely to be in even more need of those programs than they are.

[femrap]

139. Aren't all the physicists,

statisticians, math dudes, etc. employed on Wall Street figuring out new algorithms for high frequency trading????

Financial industry is about a 1/3rd of our GDP/GNP...whatever they call it now. It's all about figuring out new ways to make little pieces of green paper do funny new ways of gambling????

All of our states and municipalities are ready to declare bankruptcy (Congress is quietly working on a law that will allow them to do so).

Basically we are facing The Decline of the American Empire....and the youngsters are in much worse shape than the +50 crowd. At least we got to have a good time when we were young. And if we were smart and frugal, maybe we'll be OK.

It's not going to get better. We must UNITE and form cooperatives. Fuck Competition....this paradigm is OVER.

[eridani]

178. Yes, they are. Doing work that is actually useful doesn't pay nearly as well n/t

[femrap]

179. As my grandfather

used to say 'Make hay while the sun shines'.... these folks better be saving their money and not buying McMansions and fancy cars cuz as someone else said, 'What goes up, goes down.' Can't fight gravity.

Integrity is a lost 'value.'

[Faryn Balyncd]

125. My 60ish friend was fired because his wife got cancer which made the employer's insurance rates rise

[femrap]

140. I truly

hate greedy corporations. Or was this a small unincorporated business? I just don't see how someone can do that?

Fucking Insurance companies. It's only a matter of time before someone goes postal on one of them.

[midnight]

127. You have every good reason for this concern......

[Matariki]

128. All this going on while *some* people want to raise the retirement age.

It's crazy and wrong.

As someone who is your dad's age the best advice I could give you is tailor the resume to only show the past 10 - 15 years max, keep graduation dates off the resume and hair dye.

[defendandprotect]

143. All labor is under attack -- young people aren't invested in pensions ... don't have benefits...

it's everyone!

[diane in sf]

145. Lots of my friends are dealing with this, I got lucky* and started teaching college

at a private school without the state budget problems 10 years ago. If your dad has a B.A. or B.S. and has some desirable real-life skills that may open up teaching work. You don't need teaching credentials to teach at the college level and they don't seem to mind geezers either--there are a number of 70 year-olds working here.

*I asked for the job and they let me put together the class I wanted to teach. It took awhile to get it rolling, but now I teach as full a load of classes as I'm permitted to. Full-time positions are very rare these days, but it gives you a good base to put together with some kind of consulting or other self-employment.

[Hippo_Tron]

147. I have Republican friends (we're in our 20's) tell me they think the retirement age should be raised

And I always ask them if they really want to be competing with more people in this job market. They think about it for a second and go "oh yea, I guess I never thought of that".

[TatonkaJames]

150. My fishing buddy had that happen to him

We worked at a huge pharmaceutical and he had 27 years and was 55 when they let him go. He took the company and
unemployment's help to retrain himself and got a job for a big business processing corporation.

So the thing for middle aged workers is not to sit idle, they have to retrain for the hot jobs in a short time and except whatever they can get.
But everyone can still make it as long as they apply themselves.

For the kids, well, they have to stop watching Jersey Shore and start hitting the books, if parents don't have this talk with them about their future then
shame on both the kids and parents. The answers are there, we just have to get of our arses and do what we can for ourselves and not rely on hope.
It can be done.

[Bragi]

162. The American Dream lives on!

"But everyone can still make it as long as they apply themselves."

Indeed. If people had just applied themselves, their jobs wouldn't be shipped overseas to cheaper wage countries, their savings wouldn't have been stolen by Wall Street, their homes equity would not have disappeared under the watchful gaze of derivative traders, and their pension funds would not have been pilfered due to bankruptcy laws and GOP politicians.

Yep, if everyone simply worked harder, smarter, longer, then mom would just now be taking an apple pie out of the oven for the kids when they get back from school, and mixing a martini for when dad gets home. Life would be sweet. Just like it was on Leave it to Beaver.

[TatonkaJames]

175. True

We do have a ton of stuff working against us. That's why we're seeing revolutions today.
That's what it may have to come down to ultimately.

[JDPriestly]

153. Thanks for your post, jtown1123

We have to stop the bleeding of jobs. Stop the free trade. It doesn't work. We should protect our industry.

[jerseyjack]

155. Don't forget to worry about yourself.

Things aren't gonna get better for younger people either with the global economy.

[mmonk]

156. You get our dilemma.

Many young adults do not or do not care.

[Raoul]

157. From experience

He will not find anything close to what he was doing and/or earning - that is the fact of life in our economy now. The Administration doesn't care and is apathetic regarding the plight of millions of Americans of ALL ages.

My own experience was under Bubba Clinton - back in 1995. I know, ancient times however applicable to what we see today. My company moved our positions down to Maryland with all kinds of promises. We were offered the opportunity to transfer or take a buyout. I never hesitated - I took the buyout and never looked back.

I had to downscale a bit since future earnings in other jobs were about 1/2 of what was previously earned. But the end results:

1. Quality of life soared up
2. Stress plummeted
3. Family continuity - no radical uprooting or moves
4. And the best one of all - after the others who took the move finally went down there about a year later many were forced to retire.

Once you lose the 'work is everything' mentality, everything else is easy.

[LiberalEsto]

158. Oh the irony of it!

Like your father, I'm in my 50s - 58 to be exact.
I've been out of work for 2 years and 4 months.
I look every day, but I've pretty much given up hope of ever working again.

In the past year I've gotten increasingly upset when reading comments on DU posted by younger people who are complaining that they can't find jobs, because we older folks are supposedly hanging on to our jobs for too long, and not moving aside to let the younger ones get hired. In the media, we're called the greedy generation.

In real life, the opposite is happening. There are exceptions, but in many cases older people are being laid off or pushed into early retirement so companies can replace them with younger, cheaper workers. Or the older workers aren't replaced at all: the companies just dump their work on the people who are still there (and who don't dare complain because they know what the job market is like).

Not only do companies save money this way, but they also save on health insurance premiums because older workers are presumed to need more medical care than people in their 20s.

Many companies, like your father's, outsource the work to foreign countries with cheap labor. Others bring in cheap foreign labor with visas like the H-1B, which has made life miserable for American citizens in the information technology field.

I'm sure corporations love it when younger people blame us older folks for the lack of jobs, and older folks blame it on the younger generations. They want to pit us against one another, instead of seeing us unite and take on the common enemy: runaway corporations with no sense of obligation whatsoever to the U.S. or its people. All the corporations care about is their bottom line, and if that means tossing human beings on the trash heap, or polluting our planet, or purposely dumbing down our children and taking away their chances for a college education, it doesn't matter to them one damn bit.

The only way we can ever end this is if the older folks and the younger folks stand together.

[elocs]

159. I'm 58 & haven't worked full time in nearly 2 years, but I'm doing ok.

I can live on a ridiculously small amount of money and although I've been unemployed for almost 4 months now I'm sure I will be able to get a temp job next week. I am poor but I am content with all of my basic needs being taken care of. I am single and mine is the only income, there's nobody else here bringing in any money. So until I retire there is no option of choosing to drop out of the labor market.

I will not work until I drop. In fact, I will retire at 62 and working even very part time I will have more money than I need to live. When I am 65 I have a small pension that will kick in.

I do not confuse who I am with what I do to make money. There is honor in doing any honest job and that is what I told youth I was supervising for their court ordered community service when we were doing janitorial work at the university. I apply that same philosophy to myself. Throughout my life I have simply adjusted my lifestyle to the amount of money that was coming in and that has varied a good deal.

Will I work again? Yes I will and I will work whatever job there is to have and personally I will get along ok.

[SmileyRose]

163. What4 a fantastic post.

I do not confuse who I am with what I do to make money.


That is an incredibly beautiful statement.

[rox63]

160. I'll be 48 this year, so I can sympathise with your Dad

My Mom had to stop working in her early 60's because she was losing her eyesight. She's now in her 70's and I have to help her financially. Her SS and a small pension aren't enough to pay her bills. But my pay has taken a 30% drop in recent years. I went back to school to train for a new line of work in health care. But nobody wanted to hire a middle-aged, overweight new graduate. So I went back to my old line of work. (computer tech support) But because of industry-wide wage drops due to outsourcing, I am now making much less than I used to.

It's not all bad. I like my current job. It's a small company, where everyone knows eaach other and the CEO pretty well. We are treated like people instead of numbers, and the environment is relatively low stress. And since I never got in over my head with a big mortgage, I can afford my bills and still have some left over to enjoy myself.

[Atypical Liberal]

161. My father is a mechanical engineer.

My father is a mechanical engineer. Once he got laid off in his mid-50's, he never got hired again. He had a stellar career, including being the youngest VP of engineering for a major company.

Ageism is a serious problem today, especially in technological fields. It is perceived that the youth are smarter, cheaper, and more malleable.

[rhett o rick]

164. And yet the "retirement" age is going to be raised. Our out of work seniors will have to wait to

"retire". You see it's like this, since we all live longer, we can "retire" later. If you havent guessed by now "retire" is code for when you get SS benefits.

[otohara]

167. My Friend @ Wyeth Was Cut

due to this merger - she's 58.

[lonestarnot]

168. Labor is up against it for sure.

[southernyankeebelle]

170. I know how you feel. I am 63 yrs old and I early retired. I find allot of people are having to

retire early because they can't find jobs. I make under $1,000 a month. I thank god my house is paid off. Its very small house and it needs allot of work done on it. My health isn't very good and neither is my husband who still works. We both have problems that even when sweeping a rug both of us are down for a day. I can't scrub floors or even wash windows. But we do the best we can and keep on marching. You and your family will make it because you will. You be surprised at yourself what you can do when you must do it. Hang in there you are not the only one. I don't know if you believe in god but you say "god taken this burden from my shoulders" over and over and believe me it helps. You will learn to do with less and you will hopefully find a part time job and help out the family. You will be better for it.

[Urban Prairie]

171. This ~50 year old man's shocking suicide by jumping hit me hard at the time it happened

http://detnews.com/article/20090216/OPINION03/902160357/Commentary--Jobless--facing-eviction--a-Detroiter-checks-out


Another forgotten victim of the sociopathic 21st century corporate bean-counting culture, which includes ridding themselves of aging employees who push up the overhead costs/premiums of providing health insurance and/or are getting close to qualifying/earning/vesting a pension.

Although we were not friends, we met while I worked as a contracted temp for GM briefly during the late 80s, and talked to each other a few times a week, since I worked in the same accounting dept as he did, I eventually applied for and was hired by another company for a job as a permanent FT employee, and left GM and the company who contracted me to them, in late 1990.

He was very memorable to me because of his disability, which caused him to walk rocking side-to-side with an odd gait, and he never used a cane or something similar to help him walk. Guy had a lot of pride and determination, which sadly and obviously did not extend into looking very hard, if at all for another job after he was terminated. Guess that he identified waay too much with GM, and it likely was his only "real" job that he held after college or maybe at best, after earning his HS diploma, since the article does not reveal if he had any higher education.

Anyway, it is unlikely that "Tim" could have applied for SSD after losing his job with GM, since he had enough skills and experience in sedentary office/clerical work that probably would have disqualified him from receiving SSD due to his disability. Perhaps he was in denial, or just decided to play out the string of his dwindling funds until it was gone, then planned to do himself in. He also apparently never experienced or enjoyed an intimate emotional/physical relationship/bond with another human being during his entire adult life, even for a brief period of time. Just seeing couples kissing and holding hands in bars and in public in downtown Detroit, especially during the holidays may have profoundly affected him emotionally.

Very sad.

[sam sarrha]

173. and the Dominionists in the government want to kill Social Security n Medicare >LINK>>

these are some of best source's today. this is lengthy.. but this insidious Disease of the Heart and Mind has been spreading and infecting specifically chosen influential elites.. and their unknowing soldiers since the 1930's.. this "insanely" is Endemic in the Governmental structure of our government.. on both sides of the Isle. anyone seeking power is subject to infection. many, i am sure, you love, admire and have voted for many times.. it is like having an Addicted close family member.. what can you do..?

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060560053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296918125&sr=1-1#_
Jeff is fascinating writer.. his book the Family flows like a Steven King novel on Steroids. if you read the "EXPOSÉ: THE “CHRISTIAN” MAFIA" By Wayne Madsen posted here a while back, the book "The Family" ..'is the Rest of the Story... Jeff was sent to check on a family member feared to have become involved in a cult.. the result is the book he wrote.

this is the guy that started, organized Dominionist movement in the united states in the 1930's
http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/10/abraham-vereide-doug-coe-the-family
Seattle preacher Abraham Vereide experiences a revelation: Christianity is about helping the strong, not the weak. He sets out to organize an anti-New Deal coalition of Christian businessmen..snip"

.. many major GOP elites were actual Students if not Disciples of Leo Strauss at the university of Chacigo..
http://blog.buzzflash.com/hartmann/10016
"Strauss's students and their students have occupied important positions in the Reagan and Bush administrations and continue to play a significant role within the Republican party. Prominent figures on the American political scene include Reagan's ambassador to Indonesia, Paul Wolfowitz; Caspar Weinberger's former speechwriter, Seth Cropsey; National Endowment for the Humanities Deputy Chairman, John T. Agresto; National Security Council advisor Carnes Lord; Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs, Alan Keyes; legal scholar and judge Robert Bork...; Justice Clarence Thomas of the Supreme Court; former Secretary of Education William Bennett; former Education Department Chief of Staff, William Kristol (later former vice-president Dan Quayle's chief of staff and then the chief pundit and policy maker of the Republican party). Journalists have been fully cognizant of this influx of Straussians into Washington and of the power they have within the Republican party. So much so that the New York Times has dubbed Leo Strauss the godfather of the Republican party's 1994 Contract With America."...snip"

http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html
Leo Strauss was born in 1899 and died in 1973. ... He is most famous for resuscitating Machiavelli and introducing his principles as the guiding philosophy of the neo-conservative movement. ... More than any other man, Strauss breathed upon conservatism, inspiring it to rise from its atrophied condition and its natural dislike of change and to embrace an unbounded new political ideology that rides on the back of a revolutionary steed, hailing even radical change; hence the name Neo-Conservatives.

Significantly, Dominionism is a form of Social Darwinism.<48> It inherently includes the religious belief that wealth-power is a sign of God’s election. That is, out of the masses of people and the multitude of nations, wealth, in and of itself, is thought to indicate God’s approval on men and nations whereas poverty and sickness reflect God’s disapproval.

(It was not until I read this article that I realized that this is a fundamental tenet of Dominionists.

Worldly wealth and power are signs of God's favor -- to attempt to limit or decrease one's wealth and power is to disrespect God.

On the contrary, God's elect on Earth are called upon to increase their wealth and power.

It is not sufficient for a man to be a millionaire, or for a country to have sovereignty within its borders -- a man must strive to increase his wealth as much as possible, and a Dominionist government's behavior toward its neighbors must be "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity".

Furthermore, any attempt to decrease a person's or a country's wealth and power -- to take from the rich to give to the poor, to reduce military spending and power -- is a direct attack on God.)

If “Secular Humanists are the greatest threat to Christianity the world has ever known,” as theologian Francis Schaeffer claimed, then who are the Humanists? According to Dominionists, humanists are the folks who allow or encourage licentious behavior in America. They are the undisciplined revelers.

Put all the enemies of the Dominionists together, boil them down to liquid and bake them into the one single most highly derided and contaminated individual known to man, and you will have before you an image of the quintessential “liberal” -- one of those folks who wants to give liberally to the poor and needy -- who desires the welfare and happiness of all Americans -- who insists on safety regulations for your protection and who desires the preservation of your values -- those damnable people are the folks that must be reduced to powerlessness -- or worse: extinction.

What would a “reconstructed” America look like under the Dominionists? K.L. Gentry, a Dominionist himself, suggests the following “elements of a theonomic approach to civic order,” which I strongly suggest should be compared to the Texas GOP platform of 2002, which reveals that we are not just talking about imaginary ideas but some things are already proposed on Republican agendas.<60> Dominionism’s concept of government according to Gentry is as follows:

“1. It obligates government to maintain just monetary policies ... fiat money, fractional reserve banking, and deficit spending.

“2. It provides a moral basis for elective government officials. ...

“3. It forbids undue, abusive taxation of the rich. ...

“4. It calls for the abolishing of the prison system and establishing a system of just restitution. *...

“5. A theonomic approach also forbids the release, pardoning, and paroling of murderers by requiring their execution. ...

“6. It forbids industrial pollution that destroys the value of property. ...

“7. It punishes malicious, frivolous malpractice suits. ...

“8. It forbids abortion rights. ... Abortion is not only a sin, but a crime, and, indeed, a capital crime.”<61>
. . .

* Gary North describes the ‘just restitution’ system of the bible, which happens to reinstitute slavery,
like this:

“At the other end of the curve, the poor man who steals is eventually caught and sold into bondage under a successful person. His victim receives payment; he receives training; his buyer receives a stream of labor services. If the servant is successful and buys his way out of bondage, he re-enters society as a disciplined man, and presumably a self-disciplined man. He begins to accumulate wealth.” ...snip"

http://www.insider-magazine.com/christianmafia.htm
After several months of in-depth research and, at first, seemingly unrelated conversations with former high-level intelligence officials, lawyers, politicians, religious figures, other investigative journalists, and researchers, I can now report on a criminal conspiracy so vast and monstrous it defies imagination. Using “Christian” groups as tax-exempt and cleverly camouflaged covers, wealthy right-wing businessmen and “clergy” have now assumed firm control over the biggest prize of all – the government of the United States of America. First, some housekeeping is in order. My use of the term “Christian” is merely to clearly identify the criminal conspirators who have chosen to misuse their self-avowed devotion to Jesus Christ to advance a very un-Christian agenda. The term “Christian Mafia” is what several Washington politicians have termed the major conspirators and it is not intended to debase Christians or infer that they are criminals . I will also use the term Nazi – not for shock value – but to properly tag the political affiliations of the early founders of the so-called “Christian” power cult called the Fellowship. The most important element of this story is that a destructive religious movement has now achieved almost total control over the machinery of government of the United States – its executive, its legislature, several state governments, and soon, the federal judiciary, including the U.S. Supreme Court.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm
How Dominionism Was Spread

The years 1982-1986 marked the period Pat Robertson and radio and televangelists urgently broadcast appeals that rallied Christian followers to accept a new political religion that would turn millions of Christians into an army of political operatives. It was the period when the militant church raised itself from centuries of sleep and once again eyed power.

At the time, most Americans were completely unaware of the militant agenda being preached on a daily basis across the breadth and width of America. Although it was called “Christianity” it can barely be recognized as Christian. It in fact was and is a wolf parading in sheep’s clothing: It was and is a political scheme to take over the government of the United States and then turn that government into an aggressor nation that will forcibly establish the United States as the ruling empire of the twenty-first century. It is subversive, seditious, secretive, and dangerous.<9>

Dominionism is a natural if unintended extension of Social Darwinism and is frequently called “Christian Reconstructionism.” Its doctrines are shocking to ordinary Christian believers and to most Americans. Journalist Frederick Clarkson, who has written extensively on the subject, warned in 1994 that Dominionism “seeks to replace democracy with a theocratic elite that would govern by imposing their interpretation of ‘Biblical Law.’” He described the ulterior motive of Dominionism is to eliminate “…labor unions, civil rights laws, and public schools.” Clarkson then describes the creation of new classes of citizens:

“Women would be generally relegated to hearth and home. Insufficiently Christian men would be denied citizenship, perhaps executed. So severe is this theocracy that it would extend capital punishment blasphemy, heresy, adultery, and homosexuality.”

http://www.theocracywatch.org/
this is very comprehensive.. BUT WE MUST EDUCATE OURSELVES.. our media in owned, they are blacking this out.
you wont see anything on TV.. except a couple times in the past referred to as "C street"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/9/111512/684
Racists and dominionists, part 1: A troubling history
Share1 0by dogemperor
Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 08:15:11 AM PST
Today, I begin part one of what will be a two or three part series on a secret that the dominionists very much want kept under the bed, so to speak.

Not only are many of the leaders of the dominionist group hateful in and of themselves to LGBT folks and others, it turns out that quite a number of them--including some of the leaders of the dominionist movement like the heads of the Family Research Council, anti-abortion groups, and even Ken Blackwell and John Ashcroft--are linked to some of the most virulent racist and domestic-terrorist groups in the US.

And--as we'll see in today's post--this has a very long history, including Christian Identity's origins in dominion theology (yes, really!) and the oldest dominionist group in the US's ties with American Nazi groups in the 30's.

i grew up in an Extremist splinter group of the Fundamentalist Free Holiness Pentecostal Church.
i am sure many of you have no idea what goes on there.. but i see so much in common with Dominionism.

i could never understand why Palin was chosen to run as VP.. till i discovered she attended a Dominionist Church.. the Tea Party is obviously maturing as a Dominionist organization.. i lurk around several of their Forums.. their blogs are just Sewers awash with brain washing thru distortion, lies and hate mongering.. most seem to be operated by the Koch Family. the sites are well funded, with top of the line photoshoping..

i personally see no way to ever straighten out what has been done to the truth.. no one is going to put in the effort to even find out who these people are.. most of the people educated by NCLB are not capable of reading the information.. and more less capable of understanding it..


i am 62.. i am disabled, an amputee LaBw, i have Aspburgers Syndrome, i have an IQ of 164 but i am essentually only Functionally literate. i am a mechinical Savant, i work in Aerospace. my employment opportunities are very very limited.

the one thing you need to learn about the Doinionists.. is that wealth and power, especially power over others is proof of gods favor of a man, therefore it is a sin to tax a rich man/corporation. and Poverty, is proof of gods disfavor of a man..so it is a sin to help them.. and it is no coincidence that that is the Platform of the GOP.. it is how they vote 100% Goose Stepping down the Isle praising Jesus.

our government is out of control.. it is a run away train.. its Ideology is a Fatal Disease.. it will destroy them in the end.. but it will destroy us first.. we better take this popular 'Get out in the streets in the millions' movement or we are doomed.

[aikoaiko]

176. My father took the retirement package offer at 55, sold the house in Jersey, and bought a small

....affordable house in the desert in AZ. He works part time at a church gift shop.

My mother and he get by. There's no way my parents could survive post careers in NJ. I'm sure its the same way in CT and metropolitan NY.