From Mother Jones: Some of My Father's Tips to Screw Criminal Debt Collectors

[Suji to Seoul]

TAPE EVERYTHING. Record your calls with collection agents (if it's legal in your state). When they say, "We can seize your car to repay a credit card bill," you've caught them in a violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. Sue, and you could collect up to $1,000 plus damages.(If they say they are recording the conversation for training purposes, then you have just been given permission to record them.)

GET IT IN WRITING. Under federal law, if debt collectors can't provide written proof of a debt on request, they can't collect it. If they try to collect anyway, sue them.(It's known as the "Mini-Miranda.")

MAKE THEM BLEED. If you get sued, fight back. Countersue for something like loss of consortium (i.e. being too distressed to have sex with your spouse). Drive up creditors' legal costs to the point where it's cheaper to settle—or just leave you alone. (Send them on a paper chase in pre-trial discovery. If they have you to a deposition, be as wordy as possible. Speak many words full of sound and fury, and signify nothing.)


FLOOD THE SYSTEM. Hide from creditors by seeding their databases with bad data. Apply for 20 credit cards a month using different addresses. Abbie Hoffman's modern way of "mailing a brick to your creditors COD.")


MOVE YOUR MONEY. Transfer your assets to an out-of-state bank account, or buy money orders or traveler's checks, which are harder to track down.(Bank of East Bumblefuck in the small town of Frogballs, Arkansas, for example.)


http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/tips-to-avoid-creditors

[lbrtbell]

1. K&R

Let these people go after the big money, instead of shaking down the little guy. The links in that article are especially informative.

http://debtorboards.com (to which many of those links point) is a goldmine of information. Thanks for sharing this article...I've found a LOT of new reading material.

[begin_within]

2. Sounds good, except that applying for credit too frequently can damage your credit score.

[saras]

3. If you're fighting these people, you don't HAVE a credit score

[lbrtbell]

4. That's for sure.

These greedy banks will ruin your credit faster than you can blink. :mad:

[hfojvt]

5. When are debt collectors criminal?

Sounds to me like these tips could be used by deadbeats against legitimate debts.

[AlabamaLibrul]

6. Criminal, essentially, when they do anything listed (and many more things).

They have to follow very specific standards and practices to comply with the FDCPA. Non-compliance is rampant as with the much of the office class.

[Suji to Seoul]

7. When they are not compliant with FDCPA and FCRA, they are in violation of law

as such. . .Criminal Debt Collectors.

[HEyHEY]

14. I was harrassed for a debt I never should have had to pay once

My university went on strike, the semester was canceled and they still went after me for tuition for a semester than never happened. Eventually debt collectors called spewing their bullshit. I used to fuck with them by recording their calls, calling them and leaving messages asking why they were ducking my calls...etc.

Eventually the student union and I sued the university over it and they STILL tried collecting though it was before the courts. I then got tired of the games and just told them if they called me again I'd sue them too, I never heard from them again.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I had one call me a few months ago trying to collect a debt I don't owe

for a credit card they claimed I had 15 years ago.

If that's not criminal, it should be.

[killbotfactory]

22. If you have ever been in a position to be victimized by these guys

you wouldn't have to ask that question.

[pipi_k]

25. Some of them could be used

by deadbeats, yes, but the one about forcing a debtor to prove that someone owes the debt wouldn't work in the deadbeat's favor.

And really, that's step #1 when someone has been contacted by a company claiming they're owed money. They must prove YOU are the one who owes THEM the money.


I had a zombie debt collector contact me in 2005 over a debt that was nearly 20 years old..way past the statute of limitations. Not only that, but they weren't even the company I had originally owed the money TO. These guys buy up old portfolios of debt...some of them past collection...and then use all sorts of disgusting methods to collect money that didn't even belong to them in the first place...for literally pennies on the dollar.

Bunch of scum-buckets.

[melm00se]

8. let me add a few things

Please remember: if you legitimately owe the money, all of the below will slow them down but, in most cases, not absolve you of the debt.

1) know your state's collections laws, for example:
- are you in a garnishment state? (http://www.bcsalliance.com/y_debt_statelaws_garnishments.html)
- what is the statue of limitations in your state? (http://www.fair-debt-collection.com/SOL-by-State.html)
- what kind of assets can they attach (if any)? (Florida for example does not allow liens placed on real property)

2) know your rights and what a debt collector can and cannot do (http://credit.about.com/od/debtcollection/tp/fdcpa-violations.htm) remember the FDCPA only applies to 3rd party debt collectors. a lender can pretty say or do anything (but most toe the line pretty well).

3) admit nothing, verbally or in writing. the only thing that you ask these schlubs for is proof of debt. If they respond to that (or you admit that the debt is yours - a bad thing), then demand copies of all payments made during the life of the loan so you can verify the current balance (this part will drive the bonkers - that is a slow and time consuming process to get that but it is your right to have). do it ALL in writing, no phone calls

4) draft up a "cease and desist" letter (template here: http://credit.about.com/od/debtcollection/a/ceaseanddesist.htm) and send it certified mail with a return receipt AND regular 1st class mail (notate on the letter that you sent it both ways). This one won't stop them from suing you but it will/should stop any and all phone calls.

5) if you have the money offer them a settlement. Base your settlement offer on:
- how long ago you made the last payment (but pay close attention to the statute of limitations in your state (if you have a year or less to go to the statue date just ride it out)
- how many different collection agencies have had the debt (the more the better...for you)
* 1st agency (or 1-2 years since last payment), offer 60 - 65 cents on the dollar
* 2nd agency (or 2-3 years since last payment), offer 40 cents on the dollar
* 3rd + agency (or more than 1 year from statute) offer 10 cents on the dollar

If you do send an offer, also include some demands:
- require a letter releasing you from any liability for the debt
- ask them to remove the debt for your credit report (they may or may not agree to that)

If they counter, hold your ground...you have more power in the negotiations than you think (you have the cash and they want it)
remember tho: offering settlement will restart the statute of limitations clock (you have legally acknowledged the debt)

6) if you do get served for a lawsuit: DO NOT ignore it. if you don't show up, the plaintiff will get everything they ask for. get a lawyer (call the local Bar and ask for a pro bono attorney to help defend) and defend yourself.

7) if all else fails and you have to go in front of the judge, ask for mediation vs an actual trial. the court prefers these as it doesn't tie up the court and if you offer mediation and the other side says no, the creditor will NOT score points with the judge.

the judge assigned to collections cases knows every collection agency in town: which ones are fair and honest, which ones are scumbags and if the scumbag refuses mediation the judge is going to be none too thrilled with that agency (so he might come down in your favor).

the reason for mediation is that in an actual court proceeding, you can get hit for everything (principle, interest, late fees, legal fees etc). in mediation, the mediator will work for something in the middle.

my experience? how do you know that I'm not full of it? For what its worth: I was a bank VP in "default management" (a nice way to say collections depart) and I managed 3 collections agencies over my 10 year career in this field. I have been there, done that and know where the system is vulnerable and where it is strong. i know why creditors in and why they lose.

[Ilsa]

9. Great reply and could be very

Helpful to alot of people.
I used to work for a commercial workout bank that also had consumer debt. Consumers, by far, got screwed the worst while companies or their guarantors went merrily on their way.

[melm00se]

10. companies

skate because, in many case, they have deposit accounts and/or contract services with the bank that will, in the long run, make more $$$ for the bank than the paltry little loan that they have with the bank.

[Lucky Luciano]

12. What about judgments?

I am suing a scumbag who sold my intellectual property and kept all of the cash. I would trade all the money for state sanctioned time (just a few min) with him tied down in a room and myself there with him and a baseball bat. Failing that, I would like to break him financially and harrass him and garnish his wages until he is completely destroyed. Doesn't matter if I get paid as long as he is utterly destroyed.

I assume the rules are different for judgments...and I used your techniques as a pro se attorney. I am currently dumping a big discovery on him which will cost him a lot of attorney time! I am also filing a motion to compel an answer to the discovery to squeeze morebilling time for his lawyer...and I just found out someone else is suing him too! What a piece of shit.

[melm00se]

23. judgments are

(for those who don't know) court ordered enforcement of some sort of debt/penalty.

how and what you can do with a judgment to enforce the court's order varies state by state and, in almost all cases, is confined to the state in which the judgment was granted.

Once a judgment is granted, the laws of your state will dictate what kinds of assets can be seized or attached to meet the judgment amount.

For instance, some states allow for the attachment of wages (a garnishment), levy a bank account, seize an unencumbered auto (fancy name for a paid for car), place a lien on real property etc. This is where knowing the laws of yo9ur state will come into play.

Once granted a judgment, it will be up to YOU to find the assets (you can serve the order of judgment on banks, employers, the DMV, the city/county clerk) and once you find an asset, you then notify the sheriff (or whomever in your area does the asset seizures) and they will seize the asset (or encumber it if it's real property), sell it, take their admin fee and forward you the proceeds.

Sounds easy, right? it takes a lot of time to run these down and the court will really provide you no more help than granting the judgment. it's all up to you to do the leg work.

all of this can get screwed up if they move to another state. you then have to go through the process all over again to get a judgment in that state.

[Lucky Luciano]

24. Appreciate your resonse. Thanks for your time.

My biggest risk appears to be him moving to New Jersey from NY then. I will investigate.

Thanks!

[ck4829]

11. K&R

[csziggy]

13. What do you do if you do not owe the money but debt collectors call

Day and night looking for other people? We get a dozen or so calls a week from debt collectors. The names of the people they ask for NEVER had anything to do with us, our address or our phone number. We've had this number since 1977, so I am sure of that. Many times it is my last name with some other first name, often the same as my first initial.

Each time, I tell them they have the wrong place, that person has nothing to do with us, but then I get another call, sometimes from the same collection agency, looking for yet another person.

On one level I am somewhat pleased that the collection agencies are so desperate they are resorting to calling random phone numbers in search of their prey, but DAMN I am tired of getting their calls.

Is there any way for me to preempt their calls and contact the major agencies and have them CEASE AND DESIST calling until and unless *I* am the debtor in arrears?

[tammywammy]

16. Here's some tips

http://www.bankaholic.com/finance/not-your-debt-how-to-end-collection-calls/

[csziggy]

18. That is pretty much what I have been doing

If I don't answer until the second ring, the number goes on my caller ID list. I look it up on the internet and usually somebody has identified the company using that number. Usually the collection company has hired out their calls so the numer is NOT ID connected with them. Once I know what company has called, I call their main office, NOT the number that called me, and have them take my number of their list. Some companies only want to remove it for the particulate debtor they are looking for at the moment, but I've gotten pretty aggressive about getting to take my number off their lists permanently.

The number of calls has been dropping, but I still get several per week.

If any of them ever got threatening with me, they'd be sticking their noses in a hornet's nest. As my husband says, "She does not hold a grudge - she nails it to the wall and uses it for target practice." I would LOVE to be able to take them to court and collect from the companies!

[TicketyBoo]

20. I would worry about

identity theft if I were in your position.

Have you checked your credit history lately?

[csziggy]

21. The debt collectors always ask for other names, not mine or hubby's

So I'm not worried. I think the major problem is that my phone is listed with a first initial and last name only, so debt collectors are calling for any debtor with that last name and maybe that initial in the first name. I never knew there were so many first names that started with "A". That is about 2/3 to 3/4 of the calls. The rest are just blind, call any number and see if we can find the deadbeat type calls as far as I can figure.

I should check our credit history, but we've never had a problem with it before.

[pipi_k]

26. One of the most important things I did (wrote about debt upthread)

when I was being harassed by a zombie debt collector was to contact the Attorney General in the state where the debt collector was located.

That ended the problem. Nothing more heard from them in five years.

[defendandprotect]

15. What about filing for bankruptcy?

does that work --?

How much is that costing these days?

And, didn't know there was a "statute" of limitations on money you owe?

Evidently, different from state to state?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

17. I fuck with debt collectors for sport...

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7921993
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x9324756

At the end of the day the phone ended up in the possession of a late night talk show producer, they were going to try and get Harry Shearer in and everything - but they concluded California law regarding the recording of phone calls really prevented them them from actually doing much with it.