The case for electric vehicles

[DainBramaged]

1) No gas (except the Volt)

2) No oil changes (about $150 a year using non-synthetic oil) *(every two years for the Volt)

3) WAY LESS maintenance (plugs, belts fluids, etc) TO THE ENGINE COMPONENTS WHICH AREN'T THERE which saves about $2000 over three years.

4) MINIMAL pollution (wording changed to satisfy the grammar police)

5) Peace and quite while driving


The negatives


Charging stations cost from $500 to $2000 depending on the manufacturer.


These is a lack of infrastructure to charge these vehicles even though carrying an extension plug will help if you are staying somewhere overnight. (highlighted for those visually challenged.)

Limited range.


We are in the infancy of the evolution of these vehicles. Hopefully, within 10 years, they will be affordable and readily available to all.

[Statistical]

1. No pollution is BS.

Less pollution is more realistic expectation. The ability to diversify energy (car can only run on gasoline, an electric car can be powered indirectly from a variety of sources) is also important.

To say "no pollution" is just garbage though. Pollution exists and if it comes from the tailpipe or smoke stack is not really a material distinction.

[MineralMan]

2. Well, no pollution coming out of the car's exhaust pipe,

anyhow, except for the hybrids. But, generating all that electricity is going to produce pollution or ecological impact, in most cases, of one sort or another. Electric vehicles just move the point of impact on the environment. They don't eliminate it.

[madokie]

39. I think most of the ev's will be charge during the night

when the power plants have to run even though they aren't using all their capacity for the things we need to keep running at night so I don't think the added pollution for an electric auto is going to be all that much, some more sure but not like the pollution is using an IC engine.

[azul]

3. Less pollution, surely.

A PV system should come with each car to power it. Just as each new home or office building should have solar panels or wind generators to power them, eliminating the need for more power plants.

I have 4,000 watts of solar panels grid tied to power my electric car and home. How do you reduce pollution?

[DainBramaged]

7. Wow I am unworthy I guess.........

:eyes:

[Maine_Nurse]

4. Not to mention the battery toxins

That might be fun in a car crash, as would extricating someone from something with enough juice to light you up.

[DainBramaged]

12. The Prius uses the same battery technology........as does the Honda and Ford hybrids

:shrug:


It's amazing, I am trying to advocate for alternative transportation, and I'm getting hit with nothing but negatives.


DU is upside down, jebus help me.

[Maine_Nurse]

15. Yes, dangerous, huge, and environmentally costly.nt

[DainBramaged]

16. So is the new governor of Maine

:eyes:

[Maine_Nurse]

19. Ain't that the truth! nt

[hunter]

17. Compared to gasoline??? Oh my.

Gasoline is among the most potent toxins people are commonly exposed to. It's a rich stew of carcinogens and penetrating solvents.

And it catches fire and burns fast too.

[DainBramaged]

23. It burns too????

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Quite right...more manageable pollution

[NNN0LHI]

5. No maintenance ?

Any time you have moving and or electrical parts there will me maintenance.

Take my word on this. Besides actual breakdowns and failures there is still stuff that wears out like any other car like brake pads, rotors, shocks and tires that will need to be replaced. Expensive stuff too.

There will be maintenance.

Don

[DainBramaged]

9. The stress will be way less than that of a combustion powered vehicle

We've disposed of cars with rusted out bodies and destroyed engines while the starters, alternators, heater blower motors, wiper motors, are still originals.


I should have totally clarified my statement to satisfy everyone, sorry.

[Maine_Nurse]

13. Then there are those $4000 battery replacements...nt

[NickB79]

22. Imaginary $4000 battery replacements, you mean

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm

"Helped by rising fuel costs, sales of the second-generation Prius took off. Toyota built about 52,000 of the first-generation cars, and so far has added more than 214,000 of the latest version. That means there have been well over a quarter-million Prius Hybrids sold in the U.S., making it by far the country's most popular hybrid.

And Toyota claims that not one has required a battery replacement due to malfunction or "wearing out." The only replacement batteries sold--at the retail price of $3000--have been for cars that were involved in accidents. Toyota further claims that the nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery packs used in all Prius models are expected to last the life of the car with very little to no degradation in power capability."

[Maine_Nurse]

30. Toyota's claim is utter BS.

There have definitely been replacements for defects. There have been TSB's about the various issues. Batteries also only survive a certain number of cycles. It especially hot or cold climates, the batteries fail even faster. What exactly do they consider the life of their cars?

[NickB79]

38. Then prove it. Post a link or two showing Toyota is lying. nt

[Fumesucker]

42. Toyota only uses about 1/3 of the available charge/discharge capacity in the Prius.

In other words the battery never goes above approximately 2/3 charge or below 1/3 charge, when used this way the NiMH cells in the Prius can last a very long time.

[MurrayDelph]

6. No range

Personally, I love the idea of an electric car, but they are only practical if they are not your only car.

Right now, I travel between Long Beach, CA and Long Beach, WA, and my Prius only needs two fillups along the way, and each fill-up takes less than ten minutes.

Until you can go between Los Angeles and Las Vegas on either one charge, or a less-than-fifteen-minute recharge/battery-swap, they won't be able to replace the family car.

[Motown_Johnny]

34. my round trip to and from work is about 15 miles

an electric car with a 100 mile range is more than enough for my daily life


When I travel I tend to fly. I honestly believe I could deal with an electric car and only need to rent a combustion engine vehicle once or twice a year.


These things are just starting to come into their own now. Give it another 5 or 10 years and they will be more of the norm and less of an oddity.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. There are significant lifecycle and infrastructure issues you are avoiding

Batteries are toxic, and nasty toxic at that. Making of them and disposing of them is a major issue.

Not only are charging stations rare, how do you charge those using the power? Its also a longer process, unlike a quick fuel stop on a long distance trip

E-cars are only going to be a interim step, though a good one. However we need to stay realistic and not get starry eyed about it.

[Edweird]

11. +1 Keep it real.

[Motown_Johnny]

35. The Volt and Volt copycats are the next step

because you will have an on-board generator to produce electricity as needed so you don't get caught without a charging station.

This will also help create demand for batteries and charging stations which will provide economic incentive to improve these technologies.


The batteries can and should be recycled. Increased demand for future batteries should help make this economically practical. I will agree that it is still a problem but it is not an insurmountable one.


You charge the people using charging stations with a credit or debit card, just like when you swipe them at the pump.



Electric cars are not an interim step, they are a niche that will exist for the foreseeable future and beyond. The Volt style hybrids are the interim step, although these will still have a niche as a rental vehicle where range needs to be unlimited.




There are also some countries trying to implement systems where batteries can be switched out as quickly as you can fill your gas tank. The idea is that the vehicle owner doesn't really own the battery in the vehicle. You kinda rent is because you will be paying for the electricity in it plus a surcharge to help the company which owns the battery pay for it. This also eliminates the issue of needing to spend thousands of dollars for a new battery for your vehicle.

[sofa king]

14. I've been spending a lot of time with an EV lately.

Here's the first thing I've noticed about this model: its range is pitiful. Its about two years old now and its battery capacity is already a fraction of what it once was. It has fewer than 5000 miles on it. Its cargo compartment is made out of thick and ridiculously heavy steel, further reducing its performance. It racks up a total of about two minutes a day on actual roads attempting to reach its advertised top speed, but it still burns through half its charge within five or ten miles at slightly better than walking speed.

It can't maintain 25 miles an hour except on flat or downhill terrain. It has to stay plugged in at every free moment in order to complete the same duties that I can cover on foot in less than an hour and a half. It is plainly and obviously dangerous, with nothing but a seatbelt and a two-inch egg-shaped tube frame for protection, but also because it can't keep up with traffic, and has poor handling and traction (but very good brakes). Because this one spends a lot of time on the sidewalk, it puts pedestrians at risk because they can't hear it behind them and tend to change direction into the path of it when they do hear it (and someone keeps stealing the sleigh bells I keep putting on it to correct that problem).

The vehicle's performance is steadily degrading and will continue to do so because replacing the batteries is prohibitively expensive. Parts prices are ridiculous: its two doors, each about twenty pounds of injection-molded plastic, cost $600 each.

That having been said, the EV has stood up as one of our primary rides and its dependable enough to use every day--mostly off the roads. It has slightly better acceleration than my 49cc moped and excellent torque, good brakes and decent visibility. But it's no commuter vehicle. It compares favorably to the golf cart it replaced (mostly because of the enclosed passenger compartment, which is handy this time of year), but it will still be years before any cost advantages are realized--and by then it might not be able to do its job because of the degrading batteries.

Oh, and getting shocked by it hurts like hell.

[badtoworse]

18. All great technology started from humble beginnings

A lot of posters have pointed out the negatives associated with current electric vehicles, but I am confident that, in time, the technology will improve substantially and the cost will come down. Here's why I believe that:

I can remember my fathers 1954 Mercury - nice car at the time, but primitive by today's standards. My first car was a 1968 Ford Galaxy that I bought in 1971. I loved that car but it only got about 14 miles per gallon and by 90,000 miles it was ready for the junk yard. BTW, people thought I did well with the life I got out of it. Some modern cars can go 100,000 miles before they even need a tuneup. I have a 2002 Infiniti I35 with 120,000 miles on it and it's still as tight as a fine watch. It's a lot faster than the Galaxy ever was and it averages about 25 miles per gallon the way I drive it. I would expect to see similar improvements with EV technology.

How about computers? I can rememebr when I thought a 10 MB hard drive was the cat's ass and all software was DOS based. A single raw file from my digital camera is about 10 meg and you can buy a terabyte of storage for less than $100. Does anyone remember the 8088 processor? (The original IBM PC was based on it) We've come a long way in 25 years, haven't we? Why shouldn't we expect similar improvement with electric cars?

EV technology is still in its infancy and a lot of work needs to be done on batteries and charging systems. Currently, A lot of research is being done on advanced storage batteries and I'm convinced it will pay off with better electric vehicles. I think we need to give the technology at least a decade or so before we pass judgement on it.

[DainBramaged]

20. I have an 8088 in a frame above my desk

:evilgrin:

[kudzu22]

27. Computers are a bad analogy

When the 8088 was state-of-the-art, there was no alternative product to do the same thing. We do have an alternative to electric cars right not -- gasoline and diesel cars. Until the electric car does everything a gas car does, and does it better and/or cheaper, the gas car will dominate the market.

I don't object to EVs, but they need to improve a lot before I'd buy one. I know how long my cell phone battery and other rechargeables last compared to the advertised life. I can imagine how quickly a rechargeable car would peter out.

[badtoworse]

29. You are pointing to market based obstacles to the technology improving

You are correct - EV's will face competition that PC's did not. The potential for improvement is still there and I believe we will see it, competition notwithstanding.

[DainBramaged]

31. Electric cars are the alternative to petroleum-based propulsion

Not the reverse.


Along the Northeast corridor, the trains use electric not diesel. less noise, less pollution, no need to refuel.


Someday we'll have inductive propulsion with conductors in the roadway, or even magnetic levitation and all arguments against electric transportation will be moot.

[sofa king]

32. EV and hybrid cars were among the first.

Here's the first all-wheel drive Porsche hybrid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_Hybrid



The problem is that a typical tank of gasoline safely stores the energy equivalent of several sticks of dynamite, which is something a battery pack has never been able to approach. Chemistry, physics, and economics have always been aligned against the electric car, and the fact that electric cars have played second fiddle to the Otto engine for a hundred and ten years underscores that disadvantage.

But once the price-point reaches a certain level, all that changes. It's changing right now.

[badtoworse]

33. interesting! I had no idea the hybrid concept was that old.

Thanks for the link.

[hunter]

21. Inexpensive oil made our automobile culture possible.

When the inexpensive oil is gone the automobile culture will fade away.

Without the inexpensive oil that is the foundation of our current economy ordinary working class people won't be able to afford cars, not even electric cars.

They'll be struggling with more basic needs, like food and shelter.

[savalez]

24. It's settled then. We'll go with this:

[HuckleB]

25. As you note, it will take time before these are truly viable for most people.

However, I have never spent anywhere near $2,000 for maintenance over three years for a new vehicle. Not even close.

[badtoworse]

26. Then you never owned a GM X Body - nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

28. More pros and cons

Zippy acceleration +
Around $1000 for electrician to install charging station (never mind the cost of the charger)-
Less storage space (batteries take up a lot of space) -
Unproven battery life cycle -
potential for less rapid depreciation +
You may hit a lot of wildlife because they're so quiet. (and maybe some humans) -

[kudzu22]

36. Also a hazard to the visually-impaired

who can't hear them coming and step out into traffic.

[Shagbark Hickory]

37. Then again, all vehicles are a hazard to visually impaired ppl who step into traffic!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

40. When I can buy a pure electric for $20,000 I will

I don't know anyone who has been terribly happy with their hybrid of any make.

[Edweird]

41. Battery technology has a long way to go before EV's are even marginally viable for real people.