Libyan Revolution Tweets, Day 6, Part 6 (Richard III in a bad & dangerous way)

[Catherina]

Libyan Revolution Tweets, Day 6, Part 6 (Richard III in a bad & dangerous way)

"Let fall thy lance: despair, and die!" - Shakespeare, The Life and Death of Richard the Third, Act 5, Scene III, Bosworth Field

The world’s 100 largest arms dealers, excluding Chinese vendors, sold weapons for $401 billion in 2009, with US vendors remaining in first place

Today's threads: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5

Threads for previous days are in my journal

To make sure the Army doesn't swing the revolution to the people, with the silent complicity of world leaders more concerned about the stability of oil prices than people's lives, Qaddafi has brought in more than 35,000 North African mercenaries specifically from Chad, Nigeria, Guinea and Darfur. There's a Facebook video of a captured mercenary from Chad (Youtube here). Captured mercenaries confessed they were paid between $12,000 - $30,000 each. Today pamphlet ads were found in Nigeria offering them $2000/day for their savage work.

Is Qaddafi the only one paying these mercenaries? Or are EU governments, with their long history of hiring mercenaries, chipping in? I demand to know.

LibyanThinker The Libyan Thinker
Remains of Soldiers Burned to Death for Not Shooting Protesters in #Libya http://www.twitvid.com/YXKOT & http://tinyurl.com/4d6a57n

MAP of Protests across the Middle East

]

Libya

F22 - - - Bahi Sidra 20 46 -
F23 - - - Defa Ras Lanuf 14, 24, 30 251 -
F24 - - - Gialo, Fahra Sidra 30, 32 550 -
F25 - - - ELephant field Melita 30 726 -
F26 - - - Jebel Marsa El Brega 24, 36 204 -
F27 - - - Majid, Nafora, Amal Marsa El Hariga 34 - -
F28 - - - Majid, Nafora, Amal Ras Lanuf 14, 20, 32, 30, 36 427 -
F29 - - - Rimal, Intisar Zuetina 30, 40 347 -
F30 - - - Sabah Dahra 10 - -
F31 - - - Wafa field Melita 20 46 -
F32 - - - Wafa Sidra 24 427 -
F30 - - - Bu Attifel Intisar 20, 34 360 -
F31 - - - Defa Marsa El Brega 30, 36 299 -
F3210 - - Khoms Melita 34 25 -
F33 - - - Marsa El Brega KhomsIntisar - 670 -
F34 - - - Raguba KM110 20 86 -
F35 - - - Sarir Gialo - - -
F36 - - - West Libya Gas Project Wafa field Melita

Please rec if you read these so I know if the effort here is worth it.

[Catherina]

1. Libya UK spokesp: "why no fly zone?" "/....we have no firm evidence he is bombing people"

MilitantNews MilitantNews
#Libya UK spokesperson "why no fly zone?" -"It could throw people into #Gaddafi's hands and we have no firm evidence he is bombing people"
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[IScreamSundays]

18. BS they have spy satellites that can count the

fuggin hairs on your head.

[Catherina]

2. Reuters: Merkel says #Gaddafi's speech is very very frightening.

RamCNN Ram Ramgopal
by fpleitgenCNN
RT @Egyptocracy: Reuters: Merkel says #Gaddafi's speech is very very frightening. #Libya #Feb17 #Germany
7 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


So Angela, question here. Between the time senile Ronald Reagan noted Qaddafi was a mad dog and today's speech, none of you world leaders had a clue? Uh huh.

[Ghost Dog]

38. Angela Merkel is relatively new on the scene.

Let's see what she can do.

[Catherina]

3. "sound of “non-stop bullets” can b heard around Tripoli". says coming frm green square where Gadhafi

holmescnn Michael Holmes
by fpleitgenCNN
witness: "sound of “non-stop bullets” can b heard around Tripoli". says coming frm green square where Gadhafi supporters r gathered #libya
9 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[Catherina]

4. protestors trying to gather in #tripoli fired upon by people on foot wearing “plain clothes.”

holmescnn Michael Holmes
#libya witness: anti-Gadhafi protestors trying to gather in #tripoli fired upon by people on foot wearing “plain clothes.”
9 minutes ago

[Catherina]

5. FALSE. See edit

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Hurra: Eyewitnesses: Two battleships are shelling Benghazi now #Libya
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply




mashahed mashahed
RT @ShababLibya: Al hurra is off our list of creditable news stations, i called all my cousins benghazi is peaceful CONFIRMED #Libya #Feb17
33 seconds ago


Not the first time there have been problems w\ Al Hurra

[Catherina]

6. SEE EDIT

ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
BREAKING: Al Hurra - Two Battleships shelling BENGHAZI #Libya #Feb17
1 minute ago


mashahed mashahed
RT @ShababLibya: Al hurra is off our list of creditable news stations, i called all my cousins benghazi is peaceful CONFIRMED #Libya #Feb17
33 seconds ago


Not the first time there have been problems w\ Al Hurra

[Capt_Nemo]

46. Just for the record:

Al Hurra is a US run PsyOps operation created during the Bush administration

[mainer]

64. Why would US PsyOps exaggerate reports of violence?

What would be the hidden reason for that? To hasten the overthrow? To stir up more outrage?

What other false reports are we getting?

[defendandprotect]

79. To frighten, to keep people away from Benghazi -- to keep people indoors -- ??

Always the possibility, however, US/CIA is looking for the world to

join in calling Gaddafi to step down -- but has US done that? hmmm?

[GreenStormCloud]

85. Battleship? No country in the world has operational battleships. N/T

[defendandprotect]

7. kr

[Catherina]

14. Reports that #Benghazi is on fire and under attack are FALSE RUMORS! Several ppl have called and bee

AliLePointe Jibreel
Reports that #Benghazi is on fire and under attack are FALSE RUMORS! Several ppl have called and been told it is PEACEFUL, thank God. RT!
12 seconds ago Favorite Undo Retweet Reply

[Catherina]

15. i called benghazi, it is peaceful....

ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
@SultanAlQassemi i called benghazi, it is peaceful....
6 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[Catherina]

8. Ahmad Qathaf-al-Damm, #Gaddafi's envoy, was in Egypt trying to raise tribal factions there; failed.

iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
Reports on Aljazeera that Ahmad Qathaf-al-Damm, #Gaddafi's envoy, was in Egypt trying to raise tribal factions there; failed. #Feb17 #Libya
19 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[steve2470]

9. k&r nt

[Catherina]

10. This is a good thing

MilitantNews MilitantNews
#Libya Psychological war on #mercenaries by flyer + megaphone saying all flights out are blocked, they have no way home+must surrender now
10 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Can't tell if this already started or is an idea

[Catherina]

11. Helpful document on #Libya oil (Most of it is in the East)

YousefMunayyer Yousef Munayyer
by blakehounshell
Helpful document on #Libya oil (Most of it is in the East) and production from IEA http://www.iea.org/files/facts_libya.pdf #gadafi
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


The East? That's great. That's the area the anti-Qads control

[Catherina]

12. French evacuation plane unable to land in Tripoli:

AlArabiya_Eng Al Arabiya English
by SayidSE
French evacuation plane unable to land in Tripoli: diplomat #Libya #Gaddafi
14 minutes ago



Sorry France, just a bit of karmic retribution from the universe for all those weapons you sold. It'll be educational for your ppl on the ground to witness first hand what the other end of your foreign policy looks like.

[Catherina]

13. #Morocco: police forces are violently breaking up protests in front of #Libya Embassy in Rabat,

safeworld4women Safe World Campaign
by cindyragab
R @AfriNomad: Reports by @Soumaya_LM that police forces are violently breaking up protests in front of #Libya Embassy in Rabat, #Morocco
7 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[Catherina]

16. Wishy-washy, namby-pamby @UN says #Gaddaficrimes MAY be crimes against humanity

marwame Marwa Elnaggar
Give me patience. Wishy-washy, namby-pamby @UN says #Gaddaficrimes MAY be crimes against humanity. #Libya #Feb17
6 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[Catherina]

17. Europe, N America KNOW the brutality of Arab dictators yet did business w\ them; now r

Firas_Atraqchi Firas Al-Atraqchi
by ElFoulio
Europe and N America KNOW the brutality of #Arab dictators yet did business with them; now they are aghast? #jan25 #cairo #feb17 #hypocrisy
8 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[defendandprotect]

21. kr

[Catherina]

19. they put out feelers through kerry ... classic

Firas_Atraqchi Firas Al-Atraqchi
@
@monaeltahawy they put out feelers through kerry ... classic
8 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Firas Al-Atraqchi
@Firas_Atraqchi
Guitar-wielding Mideast-based Canadian journalist, formerly Al Jazeera English editor, now assoc professor of practice in journalism @ American University Cairo
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/firas-alatraqchi

[Desertrose]

23. I know..."feelers"... at this stage of the game?

That's it?

[Catherina]

20. Can someone identify this ammo? Used in #Benghazi yesterday against human beings

iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
Can someone identify this ammo? Used in #Benghazi yesterday against human beings: http://j.mp/fRqVUz #Feb17 #Libya
2 minutes ago




Anyone here have an answer?

[formercia]

22. 12.7 mm (50caliber) Heavy Machine gun IMHO

Very hard on bodies.

[Catherina]

24. Thanks. Answering now n/t

[Catherina]

28. Delete. n/t

[14thColony]

25. Not 12.7mm!

That's a casing for the 14.5mm heavy machine-gun round fired by the DShK anti-aircraft machine-gun. The casing is stubbier and fatter than the 12.7mm casing.

[CJvR]

27. Possibly...

...it would fit the reports of Anti-aircraft weaponry being used.

EDIT: To someone being hit by either the different is fairly accademic.

[14thColony]

62. Your last line says it all brother. nt

[Catherina]

29. U sure? I haven't answered them yet. Need to know if I should say "is" or "could be" n/t

[14thColony]

45. Having handled both types of ammuntion

I put my next paycheck on 14.5mm, but "either 12.7mm or 14.5mm" is a safe bet. Either way it's a heavy machine-gun round. Everything after that is academic.

[CJvR]

54. Libya...

...certainly have plenty of both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14.5_mm_KPV_heavy_machine_gun

[formercia]

32. That was my other thought, but I went with the 12.7

since I can't see the cartridge base. Either way, it's bad news for anyone on the receiving end.

I did see some video earlier from Benghazi with someone holding a 14.7 case, so they are being used against protesters.

[CJvR]

26. Looks like...

50 caliber.

Either heavy machineguns, usually vehicle mounted, or heavy sniper rifles use those.

[Catherina]

31. 3 answers now. I dare not answer them yet n/t

[TheWraith]

70. .50 caliber and 12.7mm are the same size.

Although the US uses a different style, called .50 BMG, compared to the "12.7mm" rounds used by countries which got their arms from the former Soviet Union. But they're the same size bullet and roughly equivalent in power.

Either way, these are rounds intended primarily for use against light armored vehicles. Using them on people is kind of like deer hunting with a tank cannon.

[CJvR]

35. Looks like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckklgMDZKJA

[Catherina]

44. Wow. Thank you n/t

[Iterate]

30. More like a 20mm cannon

Here's a comparison with a 50 caliber:

[Catherina]

33. Which weapons use those? n/t

[CJvR]

43. 20mm?

A few:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_mm_caliber

[formercia]

34. The one on the left is the .50 cal NATO

Middle is the 12.7 Russian and the right is the 20 mm.

It's not a 20 mm. I still think it's a 12.7. Look at the case neck and compare it to the finger of the protester holding the case. Also look at the case shoulder angle.

[Oak2004]

36. 12.7 I say too

and I hope Gaddafi spends an eternity in hell being shot with those things

[GliderGuider]

39. Has anyone seen any pictures of 23mm casings yet?

There have been rumours of Shilkas being deployed, but I haven't seen any evidence yet.

[Catherina]

37. Know nothing about shells but isn't it a little HUGE for a machine gun?

I really don't know much but I thought machine gun shells would be more like M-16 shells?

[CJvR]

47. Well once...

...you cross the 20mm calibers you generally call them automatic cannons instead.

They are generally used for anti-aircraft work and against lightly armored vehicles. It was the Soviets in Afghanistan who discovered that heavy AA MGs and ACans were very effective against soft targets. There are lighter machineguns as well using smaller rounds, these heavy beasts isn't really man-portable, for infantry and troops who actually have to carry their weaponry.

[Catherina]

50. I gave them all the answers we got here. Maybe one of these guys can answer too

Catherina_Guate Catherina
@pjcrowley @BarackObama @StateDept @UN Is it customary to use this kind of ammo against human beings? http://j.mp/fRqVUz #Feb17 #Libya
45 minutes ago

[GliderGuider]

53. "Customary"?

In times of war, against soldiers, yes it's customary. Against civilian protesters in a capital city, not so much.

[Catherina]

57. My guess is that was a rhetorical question. n/t

[CJvR]

56. Yes.

Heavy MGs are quite common on the battlefield.

[Catherina]

58. See post 55 too but heed the warning. n/t

[14thColony]

51. Semantics

Many MGs use small arms-sized rounds, like 5.56mm (M16), 7.62mm, or 7.92mm. And anything above 14.5mm calibre is usually called a "cannon", not a machine-gun, although they're still belt-fed and fully automatic, but a distinction had to be made somewhere.

The heavy machine-guns (generally 12.7mm and 14.5mm) are primarily designed to be used against (and usually from) vehicles, either on the ground or in the air, and need the extra mass given by the size to blow chunks off a plane or penetrate armor on a vehicle. They're not really designed for use against people per se, although the notion that such use is prohibited by the Law of Armed Conflict is erroneous.

I doubt it's a 20mm cannon round simply because the mounts those weapons are placed on aren't conducive to firing at people on the ground as easily; the auto-cannons are mainly for anti-aircraft use. Not that you CAN'T depress the barrel and use it against people, just that it's a pretty clumsy weapon in that role.

[Catherina]

55. Thanks, I gave them all the answer you guys had. Does this help narrow it down?

Though, it could be a cannon. There were reports those were used when crowds were gathered.

Do you have a very strong stomach? I warn you that these pictures are very upsetting and not for the sqeamish. I'm pretty strong when it comes to pictures but these hurt me to the inner core.

If so, these are from yesterday. Once again GRAPHIC so no one else clicks it inadvertently

LibyanThinker The Libyan Thinker
Look Look at what is happening!!!! http://yfrog.com/h4oacietj http://yfrog.com/h7ucplxj #Libya #Gaddafi
3 minutes ago


Another one here http://yfrog.com/gz555tlj

This is what one of the weapons they're using are doing to people

[CJvR]

66. OK...

...that was horrible.

Not sure what weaponry would be responsibe for that, other than artillery.
Second image is probably a heavy sniper or mg round to the head.

[Catherina]

68. They did say artillery shells were being fired at them, into crowds

This is how Q is dispersing the protests. I'm sorry you had to see those but on the other hand, I think they should be shown on TV every night.

If I had a news show, I'd show those every time a US official made a statement urging restraint on both sides, or urging restraint at all and saying it's violence. That's not violence, that's savage butchery. They're picking up young kids like that. The doctors and nurses are in extreme shock and having mental breakdowns. Doctors who worked in Gaza patching up people after Israeli attacks say they never saw anything like this and that next to Mubarak, Sharon was an angel.

I am thoroughly sickened by our response when I see the carnage Qaddafi and the media hide.

[14thColony]

72. I agree completely

I think we can safely assume that all the UN's and the West's post-Rwanda sackcloth and ashes routine was just another episode of bullshit theatre. Once it's clear the people are on the verge of victory though, we'll all turn on Qadaffi on queue, just to make sure we're in good graces with whomever has the oil now.

[Catherina]

77. The longer they wait, the less their chances will be I think

All the oil is in the East, in the region the protesters control. Expect a repeat of the ludicrous talk of peaceful transition and stability soon. Saif was their man and he blew it 2 days ago.

[CJvR]

73. I have to say...

...I was sceptical to the idea that anyone would be crazy enough to fire AA autocannons into a crowd when I first heard it on the web. But not anymore.

With damage like that they have left MGs far behind, now they are probably using something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M53/59_Praga
It is a good weapon to send in since it is protected from small arms fire and Gaddafi have over 100 of them.

[Catherina]

75. Nasty piece of work that is. You were skeptical? Good to know

because there's a school that says we shouldn't show these pictures. I believe we have to otherwise people don't get a real picture. Thanks. I feel better now about having posted them.

[CJvR]

82. Well...

...I suppose I shouldn't have been so surprised.

It is not as if things like this haven't happened before, Napoleon used grapeshots - if anything an even worse weapon.

[14thColony]

71. At the very minimum

this is damage inflicted by heavy machine guns of 12.7mm calibre or higher. The scorching in the one photo plus the sheer extent of the damage means something bigger than even HMGs was used on him. Possibly a direct hit from a 68mm SNECMA rocket of the type the Libyan Mirage F-1 fighters can carry in large numbers.

[CJvR]

74. IIRC...

...the pictures from the defecting planes at Malta showed them carrying those rocket pods.

[14thColony]

76. Yep, they sure were. nt

[Catherina]

78. Thanks. This has all been very helpful n/t

[14thColony]

80. The thanks is to you

You're doing a fantastic job with this, as horrific as it must be for you. If only the news media around the world would show it like it really is.

[Ken_Fish]

83. Mother of God

that is horrific. It is hard to imagine this happening people who are protesting unarmed. This should be on TV

[DissedByBush]

84. Technically, an M-16 isn't a machine gun

It's an assault rifle, meaning by definition it uses an intermediate round.

It's less powerful than a battle rifle, which uses rounds common for hunting.

Machine guns are meant to keep up longer periods of sustained fire, and are usually served by a crew of two or more soldiers (for light machine guns, maybe a soldier and an ammo carrier), are often belt-fed, and aren't issued to everybody in the squad.

They come in light, medium and heavy flavors. The bigger they are, the heavier they are, the larger bullets they shoot, the larger crews they need, and often the more they can shoot at one time.

This looks like a heavy machine gun round.

Note, this is reality that militaries use, separate from any arbitrary and idiotic classification made by gun rights opponents in Congress.

[Catherina]

59. See post 55 too but heed the warning. n/t

[Catherina]

60. See post 55 too but heed the warning. n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

86. 14.5x115 Soviet Kpv machinegun

http://weapon.at.ua/board/1-1-0-71

[Catherina]

40. Merkel: Gaddafi speech "very, very frightening" & said he had declared war on his own people

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
German Chancellor Angela Merkel: Gaddafi speech "very, very frightening" & said he had declared war on his own people. http://lat.ms/fyWMje
11 minutes ago

[Catherina]

41. 1st Reaction to speech Clinton just gave urging restraint

juhina_ jay_Libya
U.S. we DONT NEED U, its too late for you to interfere now, don't think ur all for peace & crap when u come in the end & say a few words
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[Catherina]

42. Nicaragua leader calls Gaddafi to express solidarity

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Jazeera English: Nicaragua leader calls Gaddafi to express solidarity #Libya
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Tyrants of the world, unite.

[steve2470]

48. that leader is disgusting nt

[Catherina]

49. Edit. question answered. Ortega: Gaddafi "is again waging a great battle"

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
AP: Nicaragua Pres. Ortega: Gaddafi "is again waging a great battle" "It's at difficult times that loyalty & resolve are put to the test"
44 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[Catherina]

52. BREAKING: Maj. Gen. Abdulfattah Yunus in a vid statement confirms he has joined the rebels

iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
BREAKING: Maj. Gen. Abdulfattah Yunus in a vid statement confirms he has joined the rebels. We had these news since the 20th. #Feb17 #Libya
5 minutes ago

[sabrina 1]

61. Message for UN:

@ShababLibya
LibyanYouthMovement
@UN your empty words don't mean anything until Gaddafi has stopped #gaddaficrimes #llibya #feb17
6 minutes ago

What are they waiting for?

The Western powers have disgraced themselves throughout these entires, historiical events. No, it's worse, they have exposed themselves as collaborators with the most brutal, criminal dictatorships in the world.

Now, what are WE going to do about our government's complicity in this?

Wikileaks cables remove any excuses they may try to make that they 'did not know' how brutal these people are. They KNEW but didn't care. There was money to be made, from OIL, from ARMS DEALS, from BUSINESS PROJECTS and the people here or there had nothing to do with it, to gain from it, it was NEVER about security, in fact our government's complicity threatens our security.

The British, the French, the Germans, the Italians, the U.S. even the Canadians, all the old colonial powers still acting as they always have, trying to put a respectable face on their crimes.

I am sick at heart. Because the way I see it now, they do not act because they HOPE their puppets will survive and protect their interests, and when they see that they may not, they go behind the scenes to try to influence the outcome and continue business as usual.

[Lars77]

65. delete

[Catherina]

67. [phone]. That needs a thread all of its own you know. n/t

[Desertrose]

69. Amen...excellent post! nt

[Catherina]

63. Part 7 here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x482898

[Uncle Joe]

81. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the updates, Catherina.