Automakers challenge rule allowing 15% ethanol in gas

[DainBramaged]

U.S. carmakers and engine manufacturers asked an appeals court to force the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to reconsider its October decision allowing the sale of gasoline with 15 percent ethanol.

The decision should be sent back to the agency, and a court should review whether its “partial waiver” allowing so-called E-15 fuels violates the federal Clean Air Act, the Engine Products Group said in a statement. The petition was filed today in the federal appeals court in Washington.

“Our organizations collectively represent some 400 million engine products used by tens of millions of people every day in the U.S.,” Kris Kiser, a spokesman for the group, said in a statement.

The EPA on Oct. 13 granted a request from ethanol producers, including Archer Daniels Midland Co., to increase concentrations of the corn-based fuel additive in gasoline for vehicles made for 2007 and later. The previous limit was 10 percent. The manufacturers said the testing EPA used for its decision was put in the administrative record too late for meaningful comment, that the regulator's own statute says fuels can't be approved that could cause failures, and that E-15 has been shown to adversely affect engines.



Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101220/OEM/101229990/1186#ixzz18li1qk00

[jwirr]

1. Are they protesting because of the problems with ethanol in general

or are they just trying to get out of changing their production policies?

[DainBramaged]

2. 12% (current standard) is marginal for older cars right now

put 15% in the mix and you have major problems with the fuel system and even possible engine failure due to the ethanol diluting the engine oil. 15% chews up rubber in older cars, destroying injectors, in-tank fuel pumps. hoses, even valve seals. Put 15% mix in a classic muscle Car and that car will stop running in literally seconds as the fuel pump diaphragm melts away and carb gaskets evaporate.


This is a power play by the ethanol lobby to increase sales, nothing more. E85 is minimally available Nationwide, but the hit on gas mileage created by E85 makes the cost prohibitive (two tanks of ethanol equal about one tank of gas in mileage) to most consumers.

[mkultra]

3. Part of what your saying isnt true

Older cars have been running off alcohol on race tracks for years so its not like its new. ethanol does eat up rubber but many older cars will have metal lines and even then it would take E85 to do any real damage. Fuel injectors are uncommon in the age of vehicle we are talking about but they don't have problems with even E85. Floats are plastic or foam, not rubber. Rubber carb gaskets? Tank pumps yes. Essentially, some things will take damage from E85 but E15 is not really that heavy.

personally i think the hate over ethanol is oil industry propaganda. The last thing they want is people using a fuel they can make themselves.

[DainBramaged]

10. Really

Methanol and ethanol react differently in cars and the cars on the race track ARE SET UP TO RUN ALCOHOL, I said nothing about carb floats, fuel injectors have been used since the 80's, and many of the o-rings in older cars will not stand alcohol (as is evident when you buy a carb from Summit set up for alcohol racing http://www.summitracing.com/parts/QFT-P-4511-1/ ) but you know more than I do. I can see that.

:eyes:

[mkultra]

13. I am aware that they have had changes made

Your right, i misread about the carb float but i honestly don't see any reason that ethanol shoudl damage injectors. Are we talking about pre or post 80's vehicles here. Most newish vehicles are fine with up to 20% and for post-1985 fuel-injected engines, all the components are already designed to accommodate at least E10. In the 1970s, 10% methanol "gasohol" had a reputation for dissolving o-rings. After about a decade, most car manufacturers had switched to using plastic and rubber parts that could withstand 10% methanol just fine, but the reputation of gasohol was already soiled. While you note that the two are different, they really aren't much different in that the hydroxyl group on both molecules is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials.


Yes, if you are running STRAIGHT Alcohol, you have to make some heavy changes, but dont forget that all racing equipment is more expensive anyway.

Ethanol burns cleaner and produces less carbon dioxide than gasoline does, so honestly, i think peoples problems with it are just perceived. Older cars may need ot make some conversions for E85 but not so much for E20 and below.

[DainBramaged]

17. Then you know nothing of the construction of injectors, past or present

:eyes:


Which means you know nothing except what Google tells you.


Catalyst durability
Engine and fuel system durability
On-board diagnostics
Tailpipe emissions
Evaporative emissions system durability.
Emissions inventory and air quality modeling.
Operability


All suck with with E15

[DainBramaged]

11. Let's see if you believe someone else

First, small amounts of ethanol is now the oxygenate used in reformulated gasoline (RFG) to reduce pollution smog-forming and toxic air pollutants. MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) has been ruled out since being detected in ground water. You probably are using ethanol if you add the contents of a can of 'octane booster.'

Next, there gasohol, a blend of 10-percent ethanol and 90- percent gasoline (E10), sold during the 1970's fuel shortages. E10 is back with states like Missouri, Minnesota, Montana, and Hawaii requiring its sale and others states planning to do so. The goal is the availability of at least E10 everywhere by 2010. There is move to increase this to E20 that contains 20-percent ethanol.

If you own an older vehicle, one built before the mid-1980s, you are more likely to experience problems with even small amounts of alcohol, even E10. A big problem is deterioration or swelling and hardening of rubber components like fuel hoses, carburetor seals and gaskets, and fuel pump seals. when in contact with ethanol. This may lead to fuel leaks. The solution is replacement of components with ethanol compatible ones. Trying to find and use non-ethanol fuel will be difficult.

Because ethanol absorbs water more readily, this can be especially troublesome with vehicles that sit idle for extended periods. It can cause rust in metal components such as fuel tanks. It can also cause pitting of metal parts. If you plan to store a vehicle, run the tank dry before storing.

While not usually a problem in vehicles, even low concentrations of ethanol can damage fiberglass fuel tanks such as used in boats. Ethanol dissolves the lining of fiberglass fuel tanks, often depositing a dark "sludge" inside marine engines causing costly damage. Eventually, fiberglass tanks dissolve until they fail, leaking fuel.

Finally, there is E85, 85-percent ethanol and 15-percent gasoline. Gasoline is needed in E85 to overcome starting problems because it is difficult to initiate combustion in pure ethanol especially in cold weather, meaning hard starts. E85 is used in Flexible Fuel Vehicles or FFVs that can operate on E85, gasoline, or any combination of the two.

http://newcarbuyingguide.com/index.php/news/main/5700/event=view

[mkultra]

15. "Unlike E10, or even E20, E85 should not be used in other than engines designed to operate on E85"

feel free to check out this study done by hagerty on ethanol in collector vehicles. The results was pretty much a big shoulder shrug of who cares. http://www.hagerty.com/lifestyle/hobby_article.aspx?id=55960

How many people do you think own pre 80's cars that haven't had things like fuel hoses, carb seals and gaskets, and the fuel pump replaced already? If you own a vintage car that has never been worked on, then yes, it might all go bad at once. Otherwise, any repair to those parts since 1980 on will have the newer materials that everybody switched too during the 1970's problems.

The fact remains that much like any major change, there are drawbacks and benefits. While the corn lobby is obviously in it for their own benefit, it doesn't change the facts that Ethanol would be better for us that petroleum based gasoline in any comparison.

Ethanol is cleaner and can be made by anyone. That means that instead of buying fuel from just 12 countries, we could buy fuel from ANY third world country that wants to grow corn, beats, yams, or you could even make it yourself in your damn garage. PLUS, American farmers could produce a crop that actually gets consumed instead of getting paid to NOT plant.

[DainBramaged]

16. You've done nothing than try to refute what I wrote, and you haven't been successful

either by accusing me of writing what I didn't, or disagreeing with experts. The manufacturers, including ALL of the Japanese, German and Korean manufacturers, explicitly are against E15, not because of the oil lobby, but because it causes problems and damage to older cars (PRE 2007). If you had read the article in depth, you'd also see that there are only about 1000 E85 pumps nationwide. So much for removing the dependence from oil. If ethanol was such a great solution, why haven't our Asian and European friends gotten behind it?

Don't answer.

I WORK for GM. I've seen lots of problems in older cars with aftermarket parts in the fuel system that turned to shit when they put E12 in the tank a few years ago. Don't tell me it's hooey.


If you love ethanol so much, go work for Archer-Midland Daniels, if you don't already have some interest in them.

[Xithras]

4. They're envisioning massive warranty lawsuits.

The cars are designed and engineered for 10%-12%, and were never even tested with 15% mixed fuel. The auto manufacturers have no idea what this will do to many cars.

So, if you're a manufacturer with a million cars on the road, under warranty, that are rated at 12%, and the gas stations switch to 15% "because the government says it's OK", who gets to cover the warranty costs if those engines go "BOOM"?

My fear is that the gas stations will simply switch over to E-15 across the board. My 2006 Subaru has a big warning in the owners manual that it can't be used with more than 8% ethanol (IIRC). When California adopted E10 statewide in 2007, there was a rush on the Subie dealers as panicked owners worried about their fuel systems. Subaru promised that the cars would run fine, but that we'd simply see a mileage drop (I did, almost a 30% drop overnight). While Subaru didn't intend their engines to be used with anything over 8%, they apparently engineered them for 10%.

Obviously, I'm a bit worried over the possibility that all of the pumps will switch to 15% soon. I've already sent an email to Subaru nationwide service asking about it, and received a response that can be summed up as "We have no idea...but you should visit your local dealer to see about getting a newer car." To hell with that!

[Throd]

5. What would be the effect on pre-1974 American cars?

Most of the fuel system parts in my Oldsmobiles are metal, cork, or plastic.

[social_critic]

6. Don't worry, you can't use it anyway

Old cars can't drink methanol - it corrodes their fuel system.

[social_critic]

7. I'm opposed to ethanol use

As long as it's heavily subsidized and we keep an import tariff on it so high, it's non-sense to import it. But...was can import all the oil we want. It would make more sense to tax oil imports and let ethanol from abroad in.

But all of this is baloney, it's meant to subsidize the corn ethanol industry - which has an incredibly powerful lobby led by Archer Daniels Midland Company.

Ethanol from corn is a crime - it only works because of subsidies, it doesn't really make that much green fuel (it takes a lot of oil to get the ethanol), and it drives food prices up in spikes - and this in turn is bad. Food prices can go up if they do so gradually, but this linkage between ethanol-corn and oil is killing the little guy in places like Mexico.

[tammywammy]

8. +1

Corn ethanol is just stupid.

[Throd]

9. The price of tortillas sure went up.

I also sometimes was able to get 5 ears of corn for $1.00 on special. I haven't seen that for a while.

[bighart]

12. Corn ethanol is a joke as fuel source for automobiles

It only produces an average net gain on 38% in terms of energy used to produce it versus the amount of fuel produced. When you couple that with the fact that a gallon of ethanol only contains roughly 2/3 the potential energy of a gallon of gas it seems like an exercise in futility to produce it.

[MadHound]

14. Get rid of ethanol in gas, period.

First of all, this is doing nothing but driving up the price of corn and food.

Furthermore, ethanol plays hell with older engines and with two stroke engines. As it is, with ten percent currently allowed, I'm having a rough time with my chain saw, weed wacker and old cars. Fifteen percent is sure to kill them.