why do girls/women still expect boys/men to pay on the date?

[seabeyond]

two decades ago when i was dating, i would tell a perspective date that i had to pay my share. pay for the dinner, or pay for the movie. i did this for a number of reasons. firstly, and foremost, as a female that always felt that we were just people, making our way in life, each earning a living and paying bills, i had as much a part paying my share as the date. i saw no reason a man should give up his money, and it was never expected of me.

second, i can't take things from people and was never comfortable with the feeling of owing someone.

last, i have heard too many men resenting having to pay for a date. all kinds of crude and vulgar behind womens back.

it was hard for about all the guys. they really did not want to share in the expense. it really didn't make sense to me since i hear so many complain about it. we hear the same old joke, over and over about all women being a prostitute one way or another.

but, that is the way i was, and the only way i would date. it worked, once they got past it. and i was comfortable, not feeling i owed anyone.

i have been married 17 yrs and i am talking with my oldest son about dating. and it dawned on me that today, still, the guy is expected to pay. in all my insistence on us being equal, women with careers making as much money as men, why is it still tradition, still the norm, still expected that the male pays for a date? in todays economy and the expense of a night out, it makes no sense to me that it is only on the mans shoulders.

personally, i don't like it. i don't think much of the woman that expects it. lol. just sayin.

[cali]

1. do they?

frankly, I think if a woman asks a guy out, and unless it's otherwise specified, she should pay. Same goes if it's a man who asks a woman out.

[seabeyond]

2. you think whoever asks should have to pay? what if a friend asks? do you expect the friend to pay?

maybe that is the way it works, but i always knew that if a friend asked me out, i would pay my share. that friend was not paying for me.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

7. It should be made clear beforehand who is paying or sharing.

If I invite someone out I will pay, or I will put it as a question "do you want to do something." and then discuss further.

[joshcryer]

10. Yeah, or a "you get the tickets, I get the popcorn" type thing.

[seabeyond]

16. that is what i always did. nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

224. But the popcorn costs twice as much as two tickets!

[Mojeoux]

250. Men STILL make more money than women

Not always.

But if you ask, for a date, you (boy, girl) PAY.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

317. For popcorn AND tickets?

[trueblue2007]

254. THEY DON'T. What a stupid sterotype for the original poster to make.

men didn't pay my way. i made good money and ALWAYS paid my way.

[seabeyond]

257. in the op i put that i paid my own way too. so, obviously from the start it is not ALL

women. that is what i wanted to know, seeing how i have not been a part of the scene, but hearing men talk, i have heard it is them paying. i learned a lot in this thread. having discussion, getting informed, listen to one another is not stupid, imo.

kinda like i listened to you and see another that pays her way.

i think it is kinda neat to have a thread this big, so many talking, and guys seeing that a lot of women pay their way. especially when so often we are stereotyped to being after a man for his wallet.

[RegieRocker]

334. That isn't the norm and truth is never a stereotype.

[Dappleganger]

3. Around here the guys pay and expect something in return.

If women want to change that we need to pay our own way, but on the other hand you don't want to deal with someone who's a moocher.

[seabeyond]

4. i have never had such low standards as to ever deal with or allow a moocher. both

paying their share, there is no mooching. if mooching becomes a part, i stop going out. but hey.... does that make the women moochers?

[Dappleganger]

5. As I said, many guys expect "something" in return.

Strong women like you and I wouldn't put up with that, but many women and girls do.

[seabeyond]

6. hm...

lol, that has always been a tough one for me to get, too.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

289. Here's a catch-22

Men expect "something" in return.
Like a thank you? A phone number? A phone call? Sure, I expect something.

Don't women expect "something" in return, too? The same things? Aren't both parties expecting "something." Whether it materializes or not is besides the point. Maybe the expectations weren't realistic. That usually leads to bitterness, which usually leads to bad mouthing. "He just wanted to use me." or "She just wanted to use me."

Anyway, I'll be more specific. When the pattern is established--once, twice, three times--in this case, the man paying for the woman, women often expect that the man will continue paying. The man falls into the trap, too. Once he establishes the pattern, he expects to continue to pay.

[BeFree]

8. so.. if a woman pays

...does she expect something?

And ya gotta love that last seabeyond question: are the women moochers?

[seabeyond]

15. how often do we hear from men that men are paying for it one way or another.

or the only difference with a whore is that she leaves?????

so, if women see it as men expecting something, do you think it may be in part because of the things a lot of men say? over and over and over.

actually, paying my way, i never ran into the men expecting or not expecting. it cleared all that up

[BeFree]

24. well I prefer sahring

That way I know they are not moochers and I can tell them thanks, but no thanks, if it looks like a trap or just a load of trouble.

But I never expected any great things to come from a meal or small lump of coins and have never been disappointed. However, if they order the most expensive item I do expect them to eat all of it!

[seabeyond]

25. lol. that is another reason i wanted to pay my own way. i would get the littlest and cheapest

and the few times i went to a restaurant i did not want to feel bad about what i ordered, lol. are you telling me, women really get the most expensive. i ear comments about that, but just seems like bad form.

[nolabear]

75. Yes, by God. I expect the dishes and at least two loads of laundry.

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

78. bah hahahaha. lol. nt

[BeFree]

108. That would be fine

For one hell of a meal. And if it was a hell of a meal, then I'd want to marry and so I would submit.

[Dappleganger]

183. *snort*

Well at least you don't expect the ironing to be done!

[joshcryer]

9. I don't have a problem paying.

I would never date a female that expected me to pay, though. If the bill came and she went to split it I'd offer to pay for the entire bill, but if she didn't accept that offer, I would not press the issue.

There is the idea that if you ask someone out you are 'treating' them to a meal. For me I just assume (either rightly or wrongly) that I have more money, so, it really doesn't make sense for the person with less money to pay, especially when eating out can get really expensive (unless you're going to some fast food restaurant or something).

[seabeyond]

17. i bet, if you are making more money, you have bigger bills. nt

[joshcryer]

23. Eh, I have more money because I have few bills.

Something I never got about people having more income and increasing their expenses proportionally...

[seabeyond]

27. good for you.

things are not a big deal to me either.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

290. 'zactly

:thumbsup:

[leftstreet]

11. If a lady invites a gentleman to her home for a meal, who pays?

:popcorn:

[joshcryer]

13. The dishwasher.

;)

[tinymontgomery]

56. The Lady

if she pays the water bill. :beer:

[krawhitham]

62. self delete

[seabeyond]

19. the guys that would have a real issue would then be treated to dinner at my house

for exactly that reason. but yes, that is a part of the equal pay.

[JVS]

211. No money exchanges hand. The gentleman should bring wine for the meal.

[leftstreet]

273. Who bought the groceries? What is her labor worth if she cooked it?

:bounce:

I just wanted to post on this thread again

[seabeyond]

275. i love du. we are all just so funny.... nt

[amandabeech]

303. In olden days,

a lady would invite a gentleman to her home for dinner only if things were beyond the preliminaires.

She would buy and cook the food, but the guy, if he wasn't a clod, would bring the beverages, and if he was a real sweetheart, some flowers, too.

I had a male friend in grad school who would invite a lady to dinner at his place after they had gone out for a month or so. He fixed nice steaks, baked potatoes, broccoli and bought some sort of desert. He provided the beverages, too.

He and his friends called it his "seduction dinner." It was well known that he expected "something," but not necessarily "everything" in return.

I was never invited, but my roommate was, and she knew exactly what he was up to.

[cui bono]

306. The neighbors

who have to listen to all that moaning and groaning!

[lukasahero]

12. I haven't dated in a while but 10-15 yrs ago

I asked and when I asked, I paid.

Perhaps we have regressed but most women I know take control of their own lives. YMMV

[Pithlet]

14. I think it's one of those old fashioned notions that is dying out.

But a lot of people still have the perception that it is the rule, particularly in more conservative circles. When I was dating I'd pay my way very often, and in fact if I wasn't allowed to I'd see that as a red flag pointing to conservative, outdated notions and be on the alert. But that rarely happened. I think it's changed more than most realize. And I've been out of the dating pool for more than a decade.

[seabeyond]

20. oh good, lol. you bring me another good to hear. i haev been out of it for a while

my son was saying how he expects to pay. that he would not be comfortable otherwise. but then, he is 15, so really not into it yet. but i was hoping i would hear what you are saying. thanks.

[lukasahero]

33. Oops rePlied to wrong post

Never mind. :)

[seabeyond]

37. when he brought this up, this is what i was thinking. since he is already nervous with just startin

dating, i didnt want to put more on him. but i have talked enough about the dynamics, that i hope he is comfortable with a girl paying his way. i think he would be. i dont want him to get all tied up in the gender roles and i really dont think it is fair for a guy to have to pay. have you seen the movie prices.... lol, lordy. lol

thanks

[joshcryer]

52. Refreshments are way costlier, haha.

[seabeyond]

54. i know. i dug down deep and gave youngest 16. he was short....

was a huge WTF.

i take groups to theater the few times i have gone recently and pay with cr card so was unfamiliar with the cost.

[joshcryer]

57. We sneak candy in and just pay for the soda. Still ridiculous. 1000% profit margin for them.

[jp11]

21. Paying is half the 'conservative outdated notion' the first half is who asks who out.

[Pithlet]

28. Yep. Again, times are changing, but the notion that women who ask men out

are being "forward" and have questionable morals is indeed an outdated conservative notion. But again. I've taken the chances more than once, and this was over a decade ago. I imagine things can only have changed even for the better since then.

[seabeyond]

32. i would really think that has gone along the roadside, for sure. i see no reason for that.

especially now that i am older. if i did end up single, i would have no problem asking a man.... but then i would expect him to pay his share, lol

[Pithlet]

45. Yes, even more than the old tradition of who pays.

The majority of my single adulthood years took place before the internet and cell phones - in other words, ancient times - and plenty of women were asking men out in my social circle. No one thought twice about any of this. And I lived in a pretty conservative area for much of the time. So, unless there's been a sudden major regression to 1950's era social mores, I think a lot of this is jut overblown generalization based on stereotypes and not grounded in much reality.

[treestar]

186. Glad to hear that

I hope girls are not labeled "desperate" for taking the initiative. This was still the case in the 80s.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

291. Seems we (collectively) have common ground, but it begs...

...who's expected to do the asking? Do women expect to be asked out? Do men "know" (feel pressured) they are expected to ask women out?

[Marr]

18. It's called etiquette.

When I go on a date, I pay. If we go out for awhile, we'll eventually start going dutch or trading off-- but generally, I'd put paying for the meal in the same category as taking off your hat indoors. It's just one of those social rules that gives us a bit of structure and comfort.

[joshcryer]

29. Yeah, but, it really depends on context. If you ask someone out, the assumtion is you're paying...

...simply because you're asking them out. However, if you ask someone if they would like to join you, then they are paying their share. And finally, if you ask someone to take you out, they're paying (only the most awesome guys get away with this though).

I really don't understand the issue, myself, because language gets rid of the nuances. It's no longer a "all males must pay all the time" dynamic.

[Marr]

36. Sure.

I've had a couple of women offer to pay on the first date, and I took it (correctly, I later found out) as a hint that she'd decided she wasn't interested after all. We split the bill on those occasions and no one had to feel any sort of obligation to hang around longer than they wanted to.

I've had women pay on a date if they'd invited me out. It was fine, but I have to admit it felt awkward. I guess I'm old fashioned on points like this.

[joshcryer]

42. Same here. I would have a very difficult time letting the woman pay.

It's not happened to me before so I haven't had to experience that, though.

[seabeyond]

46. no way. you never had a woman say, nope, gotta share in the cost?

wow.

i would imagine it gets easier.

[Beacool]

38. I was about to write the same sentence.

It IS etiquette. If a man asks me out on a first date and he doesn't offer to pay for it, I would view it as strange. Obviously that if all goes well and there are more dates ahead, then I expect to share on the cost of the outings. The caveat being that both parties are employed adults. If they are students, then going dutch is only fair.

;)

[Withywindle]

126. I've found that men tend to offer, and I do accept that as normal conditioning.

But if they REFUSE my counteroffer of paying half, then I think there's an issue there, and that bothers me.

Now I feel like I need to say as a disclaimer, though this should be obvious: I am one woman only. I do not speak for all women. Especially since I date women also.

Because some men will say, "Well this one woman I dated once said she preferred this, and I tried to do what she said, and see how nice a guy I am, I was trying to respect this one woman's views, and then, lo and behold, a TOTALLY DIFFERENT woman said she didn't want that thing. What do women want?! They are so contradictory!!"

No, we're just individuals. With different desires and priorities.

[Beacool]

131. Well, I think that if a guy asks me out he should treat.

I'm talking about first dates, not long term relationships. In a steady relationship it should be an even exchange, unless there is a disparity of incomes and one person has a lot more disposable cash than the other. The point is to have a good time, enjoy each other's company and get to know the other person. It's not about the money spent, but the quality time enjoyed with each other.

:-)

[Withywindle]

189. I get that, but I'm not comfortable with that, myself.

I NEED to at least offer to pay my fair share, on the early dates before we get to know each other.

I'm working/lower-middle-class, and there is a long skeezy history of men trying to buy poor women's favors by the prospect of a good dinner at a nice restaurant that she could never afford on her own. I get my back up at the idea of being "bought and paid for." I just can't do it. It's personal.

I in no way judge anyone else for their ideas on this. But my ideal partner is not someone who will pay at an expensive restaurant, it's someone who will meet ME halfway at a place where I feel comfortable.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

293. I agree with both points.

1. Men tend to offer, a product of mores.

I think the conditioning comes from having to initiate the dating. Men believe they are expected to ask women out on a date. That starts the pattern of men paying. If the man dates a lot, he's paying, and now he expects to pay.

2. The man that insists on paying even when the woman offers has an issue.

Agreed.

[dionysus]

213. why Bea, would you like a banky? on me, of course....

:hi:

[Beacool]

232. Thank you!!!

You are nothing but generous. I bet that you treat your lady friends to very nice dates. Unless you're married, then it better be your wife you're taking out. LOL!!!

}(

[dionysus]

233. Bea, i'm not some kind of cad you know!

O8)

[Beacool]

238. Says he..............

:eyes:




:evilgrin:

[amandabeech]

304. That's how things went back in the '80s when I was dating.

I only asked guys out once or twice to sporting events for which I had tickets. I didn't expect payment.

Back then, though, guys usually did the asking and paid until dates became more or less standing on the weekend. After that, we'd trade off in some way as you say. If the guy was significantly more prosperous than I, and there were a couple like that, I'd pay less frequently or for the less expensive items. I didn't feel used that way and the guys seemed to be okay with it.

[DireStrike]

22. I've think that there are two types of women now.

1) Women who want to take care of the paying, 50/50.

2) Women who want the man to pay every time, but pretend they want to be equal, but really want the man to assert himself and pay to prove he's manly.

You never know which you're dealing with, is the problem.


Personally I don't care about paying for a date, or every date. I just don't wanna play these games.

[seabeyond]

30. interesting. good to hear

there are women out there equal sharing. i think that is nice.

i am not much into pretend either

[Withywindle]

26. They do?

I sure don't. Ugh. I only feel comfortable letting a date pay IF we've already been going out for a while, and I know that next date it'll be my turn, or the time before it was my turn.

First date? Hell no.

[seabeyond]

35. lol lol. i am with you. granted, i have been out of it a while. i have heard men talk on du...

and my very young, just starting son, so i didnt know. i would have assumed it had gone out of style, but what i heard spoke otherwise. i am with you. absolutely.

[Withywindle]

118. I just feel that first and second dates are often awkward

but the point is to spend time together and talk and flirt and find out IF you have chemistry and sincerely enjoy each other's company.

If one person pays for all of it, that introduces a commercial element that is deeply creepy to me. I feel the same way about platonic "dates" with friends. You only expect a friend to pay your freight if s/he is treating you because s/he got lucky financially or knows that you're upset because you just got laid off!

I think introducing money issues to personal relationships is a recipe for trouble, and the best way to avoid that is to share the costs. While it's true that income inequality still exists (oh LORD does it ever), the way I've found to work around that is, we only go to places that the person with the lower income could afford (which in my past relationships hasn't always been me). Anything other than that can cause feelings of indebtedness, and that is never healthy.


Again, a lot of this only applies to early dates. By the time you've been dating for a couple of months, I'd hope both parties would be able to talk honestly about money and get through the relative insecurities.

[riderinthestorm]

31. My 23 yr old daughter tells me that the person who does the asking out, pays for the date.

If she's asked the person out, she pays. If a boy asks her out, he pays. When it's just friends, each pays their own share.

If it's kind of unclear if its a date or not then she always says "you pay for tickets and I'll pay for popcorn okay?" Like if a boy and her were talking about a movie director they both loved, and they both discovered they wanted to see the director's latest show - then it would be a kind of mutually agreed upon "date" that may have undercurrents of attraction but didn't have the clear cut expectations of a "date".

She's my "go to" gal for social etiquette questions these days. But YMMV. In her experience, if a guy insists on paying, she lets them because she's been a poor student so long that money's tight. But she's good at saying "no" to any further romantic obligations that may occur as a result of getting a free meal, if she's truly not that interested in the guy romantically after spending a few hours with them.

[seabeyond]

40. look at you, lol. you have a daughter in the know.

great info.

[Luminous Animal]

127. I'm 52 and that was the expectation during my dating days, oh so long ago.

The person that asks is the host and is expected to pay. The same advice that I gave my now 21 year old daughter.

[spooky3]

140. exactly

[fizzgig]

34. broad brush generalizations are rarely, if ever, productive

some women expect men to pay, some do not. some men expect women to 'put out' if they pay, some men do not.

i certainly never expected to have my way paid on the few odd dates i've had in my life.

no one owns the market on being a selfish or entitled asshole.

eta: i have to wonder how much of it is perceived expectation versus actual, verbalized expectation.

[joshcryer]

43. +1

They do get discussions going though.

[seabeyond]

48. hey... i have learned a lot. and i have heard a lot of men bitch about it... on du

and everywhere else. and i have not heard many men discussing that women pay too.

are you telling me you are not hearing the same old tired ... all women are prostitute... jokes?

[fizzgig]

59. i don't know where or with whom you hang out

but i never, ever hear jokes or comments like that. miserable little pissant trolls hanging out on the internet are not a representative sample of men and, if they're making jokes that all women are prostitutes, there's probably other reasons they can't get a date.

[seabeyond]

64. i have heard it a number of times. a lot. on du. from a lot of men. often. lol

if they're making jokes that all women are prostitutes, there's probably other reasons they can't get a date.

that is a given

[Beacool]

133. I've never heard that either.

At least not from men that I know personally. Anonymous posters on the internet don't count because some people will say anything when they are behind a computer keyboard.

:-(

[bettyellen]

39. the only women that I know who want guys to pay are those looking for someone who

can and will support them when they have kids. like they want to make sure they have the option of being a sahm or sahw and that's part of how they weed out the ones who aren;t down for that. And I guess it's how the traditionalists find each other?
some guys have lots of money and throw it around, and paying is part of theri schtick. me and most of my friends paid their own way much of the time, for the same reasons as you.

[seabeyond]

44. interesting, and good to know. i can revise my impression of what is happening out there

from the comments people are making. it is not nearly as cut and dry as i was hearing, from men, lol. sounding like it is all over the place.

thanks.

[antigone382]

41. I think society expects the genders to relate that way, more than one expecting the other.

There are very powerful messages sent out to women that if they pay for a date, they are cheapening themselves, and will encounter more resentment/less respect from men, rather than the reverse. In my case, I've paid my way, or even paid the whole tab, at least as much as I've been covered. Of course, I have no problem with paying my friends' way as long as I have the cash; it's just money and memories are more important.

However, if anything, I've noticed extreme resistance on the part of the guys I've dated to parting with their money or time for something as trivial as a nice time with a woman, even when that woman is willing to pull her own weight; after all, there were video games to buy/play, beer to drink, etc....which says more about my choices than men in general, I realize. However, from those experiences I've come to view overt resistance to sacrifice of any kind as a red flag. I give as much as I ask for, at least; if even that is too much, it's just not a good return on my investment.

[seabeyond]

51. wow

and interesting adn rather sad perspective. i am sorry to hear that is what you run into.

[antigone382]

61. Like I said, it was a result of my own choices. You learn as you go.

I also have lots of really great male friends that I would trust with my life. I've heard and read a few things relating to that new book or whatever it is about how immature men have become...and first and foremost, I think it's a very shallow and overgeneralized analysis. I have noticed a certain deficit of aspirations or a sense of one's role in the world on the part of the men of my generation, but I live in one particularly economically depressed area. I also know that from my own experience, I am very driven to achieve a level of education that will prevent me from ever being dependent on another person. I saw what happened to the women around me who didn't have economic autonomy, and the thought terrifies me. I knew I would have to get a good education, a good set of skills, and a good reputation if I was going to make it as a woman.

I don't want to fall into the same trap of generalizing from my own limited experiences, but it does seem that the women I know take supporting themselves much more seriously, partially because that's just more of a necessity for us than it was in the past, and the more male-dominated, labor-intensive careers that might pay decently with less education were never really an option for us. Those careers are no longer a very practical option for men either, but that has only happened in the last few decades, and I don't know if it has fully dawned on the men of my generation just yet.

Like I said, I know that's a generalization, and it should be taken with a grain of salt, if at all. In my defense, however, I'm an anonymous internet poster, and not someone promoting a book I've written that claims to have more answers than it does.

[seabeyond]

67. well,

i appreciate you sharing your perspective. i agree with everything you say. it is interesting hearing what you are experiencing. i, too, hung out with mostly guys. one of the things i was glad i did. i got to a place of taking care of myself, had bought my house and stuff, before i got married. put me in a good place being older, before marrying.

appreciate your post.

[Canuckistanian]

47. Women were paid a lot less back then

Even "liberated" women couldn't often afford a social life.

[seabeyond]

53. this is what i told my son.... about way, way back then, lol. and

not talking two decades ago. i made pretty good money, lol, i could pay for my own dinner. but wayyyyyy back then, when many women didnt even have a job or not much of one, that was different.

[Ilsa]

49. I didn't. I usually offered to go dutch. It depended on the situation, though,

such as whether I was asked out, or the date came about because we were chatting as friends.

Older men insisted on paying and were offended if I offered.

[Beacool]

50. The Sunday NY Post had an article on dating in NYC.

Apparently in NYC young women are making more money than men of similar age and the roles have been reversed. Plenty of them are paying for the dates. They interviewed several women who made quite a bit of money, but just as with the men of yore, they didn't mind paying for the outing but didn't want to be taken advantage of (like one woman whose date "forgot" his wallet 3 dates in a row).

I think that there should be a balance. I expect a guy who asks me out to pay for the first date. If we have subsequent dates, then I think that we should split the cost. Then again, it also depends on income. Most wealthy men would not accept to split a check.

:D

[seabeyond]

55. one woman whose date "forgot" his wallet 3 dates in a row

lmao. ah ha.

nope, even the wealthy ones, i wasnt gonna owe them.

ok, when i was really young, and they were vying for sugar daddy, lol

old fashion word.

but i got out of the mode pretty fast.

[Beacool]

125. Yeah, she dumped him after that date.

Some women are taking the initiative because in these tough economic times many men have lost their jobs. The one precondition that these women had was that the guys didn't a) sleep on their parents' couch and that b) they were actively looking for employment.

Hey, a girl has to do what a girl's has to do if she wants a date......

LOL!!!



:7

[Withywindle]

122. Is this NYC as a WHOLE, or just Manhattan? n/t

[Beacool]

123. It said NYC.

It probably was mostly Manhattan.

:D

[lumberjack_jeff]

156. In what sense is that balance?

He should buy the first dinner, and if you like him you might consider reciprocating?

[Beacool]

160. Yep

If a guy asks a woman on a date, then I think that it should be his treat. If they get along and there are more dates in the future both parties should split the cost. It's only fair, unless one of them has a lot more money than the other. In that case, the other person can reciprocate in non monetary ways. But, it shouldn't be all about money. To me it's about enjoying one another's company and having a good time.

:)

[WatsonT]

58. Probably because there are enough women who expect it

to keep the tradition going. I expect most men would be ok with keeping their money. But if you are given a situation where most women will be indifferent to you paying or not, but a sizable minority will be furious if you don't it makes sense to hedge your bets and pay.

Not everyone states upfront what they expect from a date so if you're going to gamble go with the safer bet.

[Pithlet]

60. Well, if they'll be furious, why would you want to go out with them anyway?

Hell, I would think one would consider that a good means of filtering out undesirable mates. Why hedge your bets? And if one is ambivalent about it and doesn't care either way, then what's the problem exactly? This is why I don't get the "Why are Men So Angry" thread. If a guy doesn't want the type of girl who expects the man to always pay, then don't go for those types. It's that easy.

[seabeyond]

68. ya. lol. nt

[WatsonT]

69. Sex most likely

also the point of a date is often to get to know the person so presumably they don't know each others pet-peeves.

Not every women announces her exact specifications upfront. Not every man is looking for a longterm relationship.

People respond to incentives. Sex is one of them, so is companionship, money, etc.

So if every woman on earth were to say they will never have sex with a man who buys their meal on a date, and they all stick with it then the tradition will end about 5 seconds after the announcement is made. The fact that it lingers suggests that there are still enough women to maintain it.

[joshcryer]

73. The planet will *never ever* be lacking for floozies.

Even if we turn communist and there's no money or any sort of status signal, floozies will still exist.

[WatsonT]

77. Then the world will never be short of men

willing to exchange money for sex with those women.

We could legalize prostitution and nip the whole thing in the bud. But that's a topic for another thread.

[seabeyond]

81. so, you really are saying it. geeez. nt

[WatsonT]

88. That some people are willing to trade sex for money?

Or money for sex? I would think that was axiomatic at this point.

There are both men and women who are perfectly willing to put themselves in either end of that equation.

Is that seriously disputed?

[seabeyond]

89. we are talking about a date. a date. not buying a prostitute to use for sex. nt

[WatsonT]

91. No, in that conversation that you insinuated yourself in to

the discussion was "floozies" which by definition are often prostitutes or close to the line.

Notice I didn't introduce the word either.

[seabeyond]

93. you twisted a date into a floozie which was my whole point. nt

[WatsonT]

96. No I didn't

Not at all. That is simply not true.

Review what I actually wrote instead.

[seabeyond]

97. uh hu. nt

[WatsonT]

102. No seriously

look it up. You can act offended and condescending all you want but the words I wrote are up there plain to see. Hard to put words in someones mouth when there is an exact copy of everything that has been said.

[seabeyond]

107. ooops, he bought me an icecream then we went home and had sex. i am a floozie now.

could it be i would have had sex without the icecream. am i no longer a floozie, now just a slut?

why cant we just have sex without a degrading name. or one being bought. and one paying for it. but simply because we both wanted sex.

your way you make both creeps. users

[WatsonT]

112. Break everything that occurs in a relationship down in to discrete bits

complementing your dress, saying some joke, any number of conversations, going dancing, etc etc etc. Now imagine any one were removed. Would that have prevented sex from occurring? Unlikely. No single issue is likely the determining factor.

You'll notice I never called anyone a slut or floozie or whore. Those are all words others have introduced to the conversation. Again, do you not get that this is all publicly available? You and I aren't the only ones that can read these past exchanges, so it's obvious that I never said any of the things you accused me of saying.

[seabeyond]

80. floozies? so is the guy having sex a floozie too. or is it just a woman that wants sex a floozie

do tell?

[WatsonT]

90. Not to speak for anyone else but

floo·zy
   /ˈfluzi/ Show Spelled Show IPA
–noun, plural -zies. Slang .
a gaudily dressed, usually immoral woman, especially a prostitute.

Also, floo·sie, floo·sy, floo·zie.

Origin:
1905–10; origin uncertain



It's a gendered noun.

[seabeyond]

95. so... define whore. same as floozie and prositute. you saying, a man buys woman dinner, sex=whore

damn....

[WatsonT]

99. You seem intent on being offended here, for some reason

I'm not sure why.

You believe I have said all women are whores when I clearly stated that there are portions of both the male and female population who are willing to exchange sex for money (vice versa) rather than the entirety of any gender.

I have also stated that on legitimate dates (not prostitution) both parties are going to do what the believe will ensure they get what they want (whether it's sex, companionship, a nice night out, whatever) that this is human nature. Not that any particular action guarantees or implies guaranteed sex (although there are many that guarantee not having sex). But if your date is happy with you you have a better chance of having sex/getting a second date/enjoying the evening/whatever than if he/she is not happy with you.

Really, nothing I have said is controversial or disputable.

[seabeyond]

98. .

[joshcryer]

100. The male equivalent would be a horn-dog or a man-whore maybe.

[seabeyond]

76. so the men are paying to get them some.... ergo, all women are whores one way or another? lol

i am really not surprised by your conclusion.

just pay the woman enough.... and she is there.

yup

why i paid my way

or one of the three reasons why

[WatsonT]

83. What do you think the point of a date is?

Or buying flowers, or chocolate, or watching sex and the city 2?

I'm not saying men only want sex, of course that isn't true. But we do enjoy it on occasion. And so many men are perfectly willing to do whatever they think the woman they are currently on a date with wants on the hopes that she will have sex with him. Likewise women do other things they don't care for to entice men for their own benefit. This is human nature.

You don't suppose people on dates act and say exactly whatever they feel like with no thought as to what the other will think? For that matter, very few people do that anywhere and those that do are generally called sociopaths.

How you got "all women are whores" from that is baffling.

[seabeyond]

85. this post

is clarified a little differently than the post i responded to.

[WatsonT]

86. Not fundamentally

All of my posts have pretty clearly stated that people are going to do whatever works to get the rewards they want, or at least what they think works.

If this tradition continues it's because it works enough to make it worthwhile (and conversely doesn't hinder the guy enough to discourage it).

Cultural mores are subject to much the same basic rules as evolution. If it works it will survive, if it doesn't it won't. If men paying for meals always leads to failure that will end. If it sometimes helps and usually at least doesn't hurt then it will persist.

[Beacool]

148. Ever seen the Pepsi commercial where a young couple is on a first date?

She wonders whether he gets along with his parents, whether he likes children and so on. In other words, whether he is good husband material. The only thing going through his head over and over is that he wants to sleep with her. LOL!!!

:D

[WatsonT]

151. Men want sex

and diet soda. And are unwilling to pay for their own beverages.

[Beacool]

168. I don't know about the diet soda, but men definitely want sex.

Any woman can tell you that. Guys think that they are soooo slick, but a woman can always tell. The sideways looks, the checking out the body thinking that the girl won't notice, etc. Besides, we girls know who to get all the dirt from when we have questions about men: our gay friends.

:7

[joshcryer]

180. I envy gay guys.

:P

[Withywindle]

187. Women enjoy sex too, you know.

And sometimes, we like it with men we don't particularly care to see again afterwards. Just like men, sometimes we just want to fuck.

Nothing wrong with that. And if it's THAT much work to coax a woman...well, she's probably not feeling a strong attraction.

[HEyHEY]

150. It took five weeks before my fiancee let me even kiss her.

But I kept on taking her out to dinner cause we had fun. I don't know why people think men always have some interest in getting laid. I actually know a lot of guys who have done over the top gestures because they want to BE with a woman, not just have sex with her.

[joshcryer]

165. Maybe...

[Beacool]

169. Hmmm, can you introduce me to some of those friends of yours?

}(

[HEyHEY]

184. Plenty of guys are like that.

Usually they are shy, so girls rarely meet them.

[Beacool]

225. I'm an extrovert.

Maybe I scare them away.

:(

[treestar]

188. Good for you

that was my problem, geez, too much too soon was expected. Would have loved to meet a guy who would wait until I was comfortable.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

218. Once upon a time, I dated my wife for about a year and a half before getting any.

After that we literally had sex everytime we saw each other for another few years - before finally getting married.

[Pithlet]

94. So, the men who don't take into consideration

the qualities of the women they're dating and just want the sex, then complain when they get what they get, and we're to just nod our head and agree with them that all women are like this. Bullocks.

[WatsonT]

105. You can agree with them

if you like, or not. I don't really care. I haven't said anything about what women *must* do, nor have I ever said *all* of anything are a certain way.

I wonder what it is about this rather obvious revelation (people who want something from someone else often do what they believe that other person wants to get it) that encourages this response.

[Pithlet]

109. Well, that would be my point.

It helps to know that this thread is an offshoot of "why are men angry" thread. The premise of the article it was based on is that men are so angry because women are like this. The point is not all or even most women are like that. Those who continuously run into that type and make that erroneous judgment that all women are like that are failing to look at the source of their problem. I'm not saying I'm judging those who are only it in for hookups. But I would assume that anyone who was truly doing that wouldn't care to make judgments about those they hook up with. But if one is casting their net wide just to maximize their chances of more sex, then they aren't going to do well in the relationship department. The best results for anyone is to find those who are like you. That's how you're happy. In other words, I think the "angry men" are really just people dissatisfied with their lives and looking at something to point the finger at rather than self evaluating. That human foible isn't just limited to men, of course, but that's what this particular article was about.

[WatsonT]

113. That's using one broad-brush unsubstantiated claim

to support another broad-brush unsubstantiated claim.

Essentially: why are all lefthanders terrible drivers? Duh, because car manufacturers hate lefties and design their cars to be impossible to drive lefthanded.

I have just substantiated a broad-brush (almost certainly wrong) statement with another broad-brush statement. If you accept one or the other as true it kind of works, but that is a big assumption to make.

[Pithlet]

114. What part of my statement was broad brushed ?

I'm not the one making a claim that all members of a gender are, or are likely, to act a certain way. My point is that all people, male and female, are too varied. I'm making a judgment on those who DO broadbrush. So, it's broadbrush to say that those who broadbrush are wrong? Can't broadbrush the broadbrushers? lol. That's silly.

[WatsonT]

115. Not what I meant

I was referring to the two threads in question.

[Pithlet]

116. Not getting you. Sorry.

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

120. You said this thread was in response to another

the first thread was a broad brush, the second was likewise a broad-brush.

[Pithlet]

121. Oh. I only brought up the other thread to give context.

I do believe both are broadbrushes, yes.

[Pithlet]

117. Oh, I think I see my confusion.

I thought you were responding to me what I said when you said it was broadbrushed. But you weren't? Still sort of confused. But anyway, I don't understand the point of accepting a premise if that premise isn't true. I would assume that someone doing that actually believes it. Which I thought you did. You seemed to be stating those as if they were truths.

[Withywindle]

124. ...

So if every woman on earth were to say they will never have sex with a man who buys their meal on a date, and they all stick with it then the tradition will end about 5 seconds after the announcement is made. The fact that it lingers suggests that there are still enough women to maintain it.

No one on this thread has EVER said that. No one has ever said that all women (or all men) agree about this, because that would be obvious bullshit.

If you're actually having a conversation through dinner, you should actually be able to find out what your date's opinions are on who should pay. It's not that hard. All you have to do is ask.

And just because one particular individual woman you've never met who's posting on a message board says she feels a certain way about it, this should in no way be taken to represent anything about what the other 3+ billion women in the world think about it. Women are not a group mind. We disagree with each other about all sorts of things every bit as much as men do.

The 'Lysistrata' model you're talking about will never happen because--not only is this an unbelievably trivial issue compared to the war the women in the (male-authored) play were fighting, but, well female humans are individuals who have their own opinions and preferences, just like male humans. The whole point of a date is to learn whether or not you're compatible with this particular other human!

So if you're not sure how your date feels about the issue, ASK!

[WatsonT]

129. And yet the OP assumes that all women are opposed to this

likewise that all men are inclined to do this.

Seems I'm not the one who needs to be told that women and men enjoy a great deal of natural variety in their views on such matters.

And it could be that the reason some men do pay is that they get the impression they should over the course of the date. As you say, women are not monolithic, there are plenty who would support the guy paying.

I'm really not seeing the issue here. If it's terribly offensive to the woman she should make it clear from the beginning. If he still pays then ditch him. If she expects it and he doesn't pay she can ditch him. And so on. I don't see 'who pays on the date' as the most pressing issue of our generation.

Let couples determine on their own the proper protocol for dinner.

[Pithlet]

130. It would seem that you do based on statements you've made.

You'd said something to the effect of it wouldn't keep happening if enough women didn't participate in this ritual. You're making the assumption that the premise is even true. And if you think it is, then yes, I think the appropriate response would be to remind you that women aren't monolithic in their tastes and views.

[WatsonT]

My statements are all based on facts

Two simple ones in fact: 1) people tend to act in their own best interests as much as possible and 2) this occurs. Meaning at least some people think it is in their best interest. They could all be wrong, however there are enough people doing it to make it unlikely that it is an entirely flawed premise.

"You're making the assumption that the premise is even true."

The premise isn't true. However SOME men do buy their dates dinner and SOME women do expect it. Does this seriously need to be stated?

"And if you think it is, then yes, I think the appropriate response would be to remind you that women aren't monolithic in their tastes and views."

You must be some kind of wizard to transform SOME in to ALL.

Can you use your sorcery for other things or does it only work to misinterpret common words?

[Pithlet]

134. Look, you're the one who said it.

Your response to the broad brushed OP started with "It wouldn't be true if...." Gee, forgive anyone for reading plain English! You seem to heavily imply that you think just like the OP and assume her broad brushed statement is true. If you'd come right out with the statements you're making now, I'd find no disagreement. Yes indeed there are some of both genders who think this old fashioned way of doing things is just fine. But there are all sorts who think all sorts of things. To then go to the conclusion that this is some system that a majority of women uphold is, just like I told you the first time I responded to you, BS.

[WatsonT]

135. Funny, I don't remember saying any of that

Of course you could supply me with a quote of mine where I said all men, or all women are a certain way and are monolithic in their views . . . ?

I seem to remember saying that ENOUGH women do this to continue the tradition with SOME men.

/I've started capitalizing the key words because otherwise you seem to skip them and fill them with your magical illiteracy.

[Pithlet]

137. It's in the title of your very first post.

Looks to me like you're accepting the premise. Here, cut copied and pasted, the title of your first post: "Probably because there are enough women who expect it" If you didn't think the OP was true, why would you say that?

[WatsonT]

142. I take it you didn't make it past the first sentence then?

Often times people are not able to fit the entirety of their statement in to the title of the post. That's why they tend to put in words below it in this space here, where I'm typing now. See?

[WatsonT]

138. BTW:

I said a minority of women expect it (it's true, look at my first comment). You took that to mean majority.

Illiteracy-wizard strikes again!

[Pithlet]

141. If it were only a minority, then the OP's position is false.

And again, answering with "Probably because" gives the impression you agree. If you thought it was only a minority, your response doesn't make sense. I mean, I'll take you at your word now, but forgive a person for misreading what is plainly right out there.

[WatsonT]

144. Ok I see the problem

you didn't read my full post. You read one sentence and stopped there.

[Pithlet]

146. Nope. Read it all. n/t

[WatsonT]

149. Clearly you did not

otherwise you wouldn't have claimed I said a "majority" when I obviously said "minority".

[Pithlet]

153. You just aren't going to get it. nt

[WatsonT]

157. I'm not going to get my own argument/beliefs?

Or I'm not going to get the words you are putting in my mouth?

Why not just take seabeyonds tack and say that I called 100% of all women stupid whores and be done with it.

[Pithlet]

161. No, you aren't getting mine.

Why would I take the tack of the OP that I don't even agree with?

[WatsonT]

164. Like I said

I get what you're trying to do.

You're trying to insinuate that I said ALL women/men participate in this.

I get it, really I do. It's not a complicated concept.

It's just that I never said that so I'm not going to agree with you.

[Pithlet]

177. And it's not a complicated concept

that one doesn't attempt to explain something they don't agree exists. You don't have to explicitly say you think all women/men paticipate. You just have to respond to someone who says it with an explanation. WHy would you explain something if it wasn't that way? After the fact, you say you don't belive it. Fine. But when I first responded to you, it seemed clear you thought as the OP did. And I'm not trying to get you to say anything. I'm merely stating what you did say.

[WatsonT]

159. I get what you're trying to have me say

But it just isn't substantiated by what I've actually said.

90% of the disputes people have had with my statements have been with statements I never made.

Me: people act in their own best interests, social norms are determined by what large groups of people expect/want.
others: YOU'RE SAYING ALL WOMEN ARE STUPID WHORES?!!?!??!?!?!
Me: no I never said that, I said women and men both are guided by rational self interest in many of these situations. If a particular custom survives it does so because it is at least percieved to serve some purpose.
others: SO YOU'RE SAYING I'M A SLUT AND YOU HATE ALL WOMEN!?!?!?!!?!?
Me: No.

[Pithlet]

163. I'm not saying what you claim I am, either.

My whole point is, why would you argue from a premise if you didn't think it was true. That's it. Finis. You did that, and I argued with you for the very reason I argued with the OP. The premise isn't true.

Yes, you responded with "e: people act in their own best interests, social norms are determined by what large groups of people expect/want." Instead of refuting the OP's claim, you're explaining it. You can't see that?

[WatsonT]

166. Sigh, no I am not supporting the OP

People act in their own self-interest, right? Ok good.

So if this custom persists that means some women are sustaining it.

That does not state that 100% of all women are. Merely SOME. ENOUGH to keep it going in some section of the population.

Really how are you not getting this?

[Pithlet]

170. No, not all people act solely in their own self interest.

The point is the custom doesn't persist.

[WatsonT]

172. "The point is the custom doesn't persist. "

Really? That's a lost argument. Some men do this, some women expect it.

That is a fact.

Now I know you will take SOME to equal ALL so go ahead. Knock yourself out.

[Pithlet]

174. Well, then I didn't misread you.

Voila!

Again. I dont't respond to any statement I don't agree with with "Well it's because..." And if I did I'd forgive the person who thought I was for being confused!

[WatsonT]

176. Ok,

I forgive you for being confused.

[LanternWaste]

247. Nothing like a serious dose of libertarianism

"People act in their own self-interest, right? Ok good...."

Nothing like a serious dose of libertarianism to ad that special something to a date...

Sometimes people act a p[articular way for no other reason than it's the right thing to do rather than the expedient or self-serving thing... another persistent custom I would imagine.

[WatsonT]

147. For instance

You said "So, the men who don't take into consideration" and that was the entirety of the post. Are you saying all men don't take this in to consideration? If so the grammar is poor.

I can tell that's all you want to say because it's the title, no need to read the rest of the post.

[Pithlet]

152. The rest of your post was supporting what you said.

It wasn't as if you said 'But the premise is false" and then went on to argue that it was wrong to broadbrush. I wouldn't have argued with you if you'd done that. Braodbrushing isn't merely saying "all x are y" even if you say "well, I mean that only some, but you know a minority, blah blah blah" It's still taking the OP at its premise. If you think that women are all varied individual human beings, you wouldn't be making any of these arguments. It's not about monolithic groups. You're trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Either women are individuals or they aren't. Which is it?

[WatsonT]

155. Wait, so my post supported what I said? The horror!

I should contradict myself constantly instead.

Here I'll repost so you can read it:

(probably because there are enough women who expect it) to keep the tradition going. I expect most men would be ok with keeping their money. But if you are given a situation where *************MOST**************** women will be **************INDIFFERENT************ to you paying or not, but a sizable ********MINORITY************ will be furious if you don't it makes sense to hedge your bets and pay.

Not everyone states upfront what they expect from a date so if you're going to gamble go with the safer bet.

/edited to draw attention to apparently otherwise invisible words.

[Pithlet]

158. Yep. You did. Exactly what I'm saying.

That's why I didn't take one sentence out of context and misrepresent it. Your whole response is explaining why the OP says it is the way it is. . You can't say you aren't broadbrushing. OP claimed X here. You aren't refuting X. You're explaining why X happens. How can you then claim you aren't broadbrushing when you're supporting that very premise?

[WatsonT]

162. Ah and which statement exactly was I responding to?

From the OP?

I was agreeing that it happens, not that all men/women participate.

You don't dispute that this happens right? I never once said all of everyone participates.

Like I said, read what I wrote rather than what you imagine I wrote.

[Pithlet]

167. But the OP wasn't just claiming it happens.

This is why I brought up the other thread to give you the context. The whole argument is that all women (or enough of them) are like this to make mens' lives miserable, and now they're angry. I tried to tell you that and you blew that off. I don't know about you, but whenever i hear "Broad generalization X" I don't' say "Well, enough of them are like that" to justify that person's impression that X is true. I simply refute it.

[WatsonT]

171. Perhaps I 'blew it off' because it wasn't my assertion?

I shouldn't have to renounce claims I never made.

You have clearly chosen (for some reason I can't fathom) to misread my statements that have been abundantly clear.

[Pithlet]

173. I don't know why you blew it off.

That's why it confused me when you did. You responded that it was another broadbrush (well duh! That was the point. I was trying to tell you this was all one big broadbrush fest).

[WatsonT]

175. The two posts that were broad-brushes were not mine

I didn't make them. Why should I be on the hook to refute them?

There are likely millions of statements being made online now that I don't agree with. I don't feel it is my responsibility to refute all of them (and failing to do so be assumed to support them).

[Pithlet]

181. YOu don't have to refute anything you don't want to.

Go ahead and own up that you agree. That's fine by me. I just don't agree is all. WHy you're insisting that you didn't say what you did, and then continue to argue with me is beyond me. If it were truly confusion, I think you would have said "oops, I wasn't clear, I meant this" There have been times when I haven't made myself clear, and when I realize that I'm actually on the same page with someone, I'll say it. Not continue to argue with that person.

[WatsonT]

207. It is confusion

apparently, but not on my end. I must apologize every time someone misreads my statements? God what a nightmare that would be.

You are disagreeing with me, for some reason. The onus to 'agree' or 'stop arguing' is on you.

[Pithlet]

182. This might help.

Let's replace this generalization with another. Someone says "Gee, all short people are grouchy. I'm tired of them ruining my day." Then I response "Well, it's because they're jealous of tall people (explaining, thus validating the claim to be true). Not all of them, are like that, mind you" I can then claim I didn't say all short people are grouchy, and therefore I"m in the clear? I don't think so. I'm still following the premise that stature and disposition are somehow linked. I certainly don't think a lot of short people would think so. I think they'd rather I say "What an idiot, making the claim that all short people are grouchy".

[WatsonT]

209. Actually you kind of argued my case

any objective sane person reading that would not take you to mean that all short people are grouchy.

"I'm still following the premise that stature and disposition are somehow linked"

See here's that problem again. You can't understand a very basic concept, that a subset is different than the whole. You take the obviously false statement of 'all short people are grouchy' to mean that in fact zero short people are grouchy. You don't understand that it can be more than just those two options. For instance, some short people may be grouchy.

So two things can be correlated, weakly, without it being a perfect 1 to 1 correlation. Do you understand?

[Withywindle]

185. My whole point is that gender has nothing to do with opinions or values.

men have very different opinions on this. So do women.

Ideally, i think this conversation should be done BEFORE the meal. when you meet in the foyer of the restaurant. Over premeal cocktails or coffee. What matters is TALKING about it, as soon as possible.

As a woman, I just don't think it's ever OK to expect a free ride on the first or second date. It's never "free." There are always strings attached. What I look for as a deciding factor on a first date is conversation and chemistry. I'm not into expensive restaurants; on the first date, i want to know if we can spend hours enjoying each other's company at a cheap diner and a used bookstore and a movie, cause that's what I like!

tl;dr - for me, the first few dates are about conversation and bonding and negotiation. If we can't talk honestly about money on our first date, I get creeped out--because I know money is the #1 reason most marriages break up!

[krawhitham]

63. If the guy asks the girl out he pays, if the girl asks the guy out she pays

[southernyankeebelle]

65. If a guy asks her out then he should pay. I knew when a guy asked me out I usually

was careful not to take him for a ride. If I went out with a GI I new when they got paid so we might go to a play like the Olive Garden or when it was past payday maybe it was McDonald. I would invite him over and cook dinners for him. I never took advantage at a date. But because I went out with him I set the limits. No sleeping together especially on the first date. It usually was good for the first 3 dates until he tried to get to 2d base. I always made it clear up front. I respected myself enough not to just give myself to just anyone.

[walldude]

72. Well that works out really well for the women since

in my entire life I have never once been asked out by a woman. I always did the asking. It seems that's the way society wanted it.

[lukasahero]

106. I suppose you could see it that way

Or you could question why that is your experience.

[walldude]

216. Yes it's my fault. That women didn't ask men out.

Or are you trying to say that women asked men out all the time and I'm just a loser? And how would they know that unless they asked me out? So tell me, exactly what are you saying here? If you want to insult me just fucking do it, don't try to be so subtle, you aren't good at it.

BTW Back when I was dating it was considered improper for a woman to ask a man out, but don't let that stop you from your lame attempt to make it my fault.

Asshole.

[seabeyond]

217. lol, wallude

got me at the end

[seabeyond]

249. not fair.... you changed your post. what happened. ah well. nt

[walldude]

255. Fat lot of good it did me....

Poster doesn't like my disagreement, poster makes rude nasty fucking comment, I come back with something rude and nasty and the consensus is... I'm an asshole.

LMAO, I love this place...

[seabeyond]

258. i thought the original post, before edited, was done tongue in cheek

and thought funny. didnt know you were seriously offended. but i will say, a couple decades ago, and especially when i was young, no, a girl/young woman didnt ask guys out.

today, older and the times, i would be very comfortable asking a man out.

my son has a not shy at all girl that asks him out. but the trend is still the male asking out. or at least in his very young age group, from what i see and hear.

[lukasahero]

234. There are several women on this thread who say they have asked men out

Are you suggesting they are liars?

BTW, given your polite response, I can't begin to imagine why women didn't ask you out.

[walldude]

253. No I'm suggesting that in my day it was considered

improper for a woman to ask a man out. It didn't happen. Which negates the point I was disagreeing with.

And I love how all you really nice folks come in here to defend the person who basically said I was too ugly to be asked out because she didn't like the fact that I disagreed with her assessment of the OP. While saying it's my fault I didn't get asked out because I displayed a nasty attitude towards a rude and nasty post.

My attitude was the proper response for such a rude fucking post. Sorry if you don't like it.

[LanternWaste]

248. I've found that quite often

"Asshole...." "If you want to insult me just fucking do it..." "you aren't good at it..."

I've found that rather often, attitudes which invoke this type of language in otherwise civil conversations are one of the main reasons women don't ask some men out... as this particular projection of ourselves is somewhat difficult to hide.

[walldude]

251. Well when some anonymous poster comes on and

basically says I'm too ugly to be asked out then yeah I have a tendency to get nasty on them.

Funny how you have no harsh words for the person who felt the need to demean me, just for me defending myself. JAAH.

[LanternWaste]

308. You can of course point out the relevant passages...

I'm afraid I missed out on the two posters in questions specifically implying you are ugly. You can of course point out the relevant passages which allow no room for misinterpretation, yes?

[riderinthestorm]

87. I always put out on a first date if the chemistry was right! I love sex!

My husband came into our marriage with a healthy sex drive, needless to say we're well matched.

In my opinion, sex and respect aren't necessarily required. Sometimes (many times!) it's just about fun.

[seabeyond]

92. you floozie. they are talking about you further up the post

lmao... ah ha

[riderinthestorm]

101. Yeah but I didn't say who paid for the date!

If I paid, and also wanted sex, does that still make me a floozie?!

:D

The problem Mr. Watson has is that he presumes that people date for one thing (sex) instead of for many reasons: some dates are just looking for conversation, some for sex, some for things in-between including favors, or to impart information about someone else.

[seabeyond]

103. ya, well, and we both pay, at least we will both be floozies, lol. together. equally. nt

[joshcryer]

104. Not in a negative way!

I think WatsonT didn't get my message.

[seabeyond]

110. bah hahaha. k.... i am off to bed, with hubby. i made him dinner. he is such a

slut. lol

was a fun thread

[joshcryer]

111. I thought he was the cook... >:P

[HEyHEY]

143. Damn straight, I hate that shit where women take more flack for liking getting laid

And that has nothing to do with the fact I think such behaviour should be encouraged :patriot:

[Beacool]

154. Really?

Not me. Too many STDs out there, also too many nuts. I need to know a guy before I agree to sleep with him. A friend of mine went a little wild after her recent divorce and thought that she got herpes from some guy. Thank goodness it turned out to be some infection that was not sexually related, but she spent several days scared witless and crying on my shoulder until the doctor called her with the results. Now she's taking it slowly.

:-(

[Codeine]

276. I've been lucky insofar as all but one woman I've dated

has slept with me on the first date. Gets the tension out of the way. :evilgrin:

[Beacool]

295. I have never done that.

What's left to look forward to if you have sex with someone after barely meeting them? I'm no prude, but I would like things to go a tad slower. How many of these women became long term relationships?

[Codeine]

298. Actually, the vast majority.

I'm a serial monogamist.

[Beacool]

302. OK, it seems to work out for you.

You are fortunate.

:-)

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

305. Huh? For reals, player?

Well, Beacool, if the *only* thing you have to look forward to is sex, I guess the only appropriate response is that some are having a hell of a lot more sex than you. That said, it certainly would suck if sex is the only thing you had to look forward to...

[Beacool]

322. I don't sleep on first dates.

I would have to know someone pretty well before I would sleep with them. I don't judge others, but random bed hopping is not my thing. If that means having less sex than other people, so be it. I prefer quality over quantity.

:shrug:

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

330. I'm like the other guy...

Even though sex comes early, I have a whole relationship to look forward to. Every day is better than the last before you begin to settle down. That's what keeps me invested in the relationship. So it struck me as :( when I read that, for you, there's nothing to look forward to besides sex: "What's left to look forward to if you have sex with someone after barely meeting them?"

[Beacool]

331. I didn't say that there was nothing to look forward to after sex.

I just don't think that sex should be treated with the same casualness as taking a shower. I think that when I meet someone, if we click and things go well, then sex is something to look forward to but I don't like to rush headfirst into it.

As I said before, I don't judge others. Everybody's got to do what feels right for them. In my case promiscuity is not for me. It may also be a guy/girl thing. Most of my female friends won't sleep on first dates either. There are too many creeps and STDs out there.

;-)

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

333. How can it be a guy/girl thing?

It's not a guy/girl thing. It's a lifestyle choice thing. It's quite apparent that it's not gender specific.

Sure, I have male, heterosexual friends with STDs. Creeps are non-gender specific, either.

And who's promiscuous? Me, because you wait 5 dates longer to have sex with your s/o? I didn't say I sleep around. I said I have sex earlier in a relationship than you. I'm sure I'm like you in that I stay in a relationship with someone I've had sex with. I am discriminating. I don't just have random, casual sex just to have sex.


You say you are non-judgmental, but you use judgmental language. So I'm going to disagree with you again, and say that you are a judgmental person.

[riderinthestorm]

281. I'm 50 years old. So this was more than 3 decades ago +/-

YMMV but honestly I was less worried about STDs than pregnancy at the time so I was both on the pill and insisted on condoms (which I always carried in my purse).

I never had a bad experience so I can't speak for others. I'm a very, very good judge of character from virtually the first meeting of people. I don't know why. My job entails "reading" horses and their behavior so perhaps I'm more finely tuned to "reading" subtle, non-verbal human clues as well.

I'm sorry about your friend. I caution my own daughters to go slow. My oldest has been in a relationship with the same boy for 3 years now so she hasn't been involved in a lot of casual sex like me but I wouldn't judge her at this stage whatever happens. She's an adult now and also a very, very good horsewoman. Perhaps she also has that instinct that keeps her safe. She's by nature very cautious.

Unfortunately I have a wild 14 year old whose already been caught going "too far" if you get my drift, and smoking pot. Funny how life comes around to bite you in the ass - all my wild adventures appear to be rising up and flashing before my eyes with her dammit.

[Beacool]

294. Yep, life has a funny way of biting us in the butt. LOL!!!

Pregnancy is another concern, but nowadays STDs frighten me more. No night of passion is worth contracting herpes or HIV. Besides, hooking up doesn't guarantee satisfaction. My friend told me that both guys she slept with were duds. She didn't even enjoy herself that much, and to cap it all, she thought that she got herpes from the second guy. Lesson learned.

I rather have a more sedate dating life and get to know a person before I sleep with him. As far as I'm concerned there's no rush.

Your 23 year old seems to have a level head. Good luck with the 14 year old!!!

:D

[musette_sf]

66. Since I never expected it

I don't know why women still expect it.

Once a couple is past the initial dating phase - in which all expenditures should be split 50-50, and in which there should be no extravagances on the part of either party - then they can negotiate as to each person's earnings and what constitutes fairness in an ongoing relationship.

If Person 1 earns $250K/year and Person 2 earns $40K/year, obviously if Person 1 wants to do a week in Europe, Person 2 should be contributing *proportionately*. And Person 1 should also be able to enjoy more modest pleasures that Person 2 can have the enjoyment of treating Person 1 to.

I have seen some ugly breakup battles where Person 1 sues Person 2 for half of that Europe trip, and for half the rent on the McMansion, which is just plain mean and vengeful on the part of Person 1.

[seabeyond]

71. yup, lol

to everything you say.

[walldude]

70. Wow was there some kind of epiphany today?

Apparently this "dawned" on a few people...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=530410

[joshcryer]

79. That thread was the reason for this thread.

[seabeyond]

82. actually, i have been going to start this thread a while. after a conversation with 15 yr old

son. that thread just prompted me asking.

[Kat45]

74. When I was younger, I think I offered to split the bill.

But I had a good job back then. I've been unemployed for over two years now and I have to think hard about even buying myself a slice of pizza, so I'm fine with the man paying these days. When they know my work situation, they usually have no problem with paying.

Of course I pay for my own meal if I go out to eat with friends, but I don't do that very often. (I usually can't afford to.) Last year when I went out with a group, I asked if I could just pay for my own meal (plus tip) rather than participating in everyone splitting the bill. Other folks usually order a lot more than I do and an individual share of the bill is pretty big; I'd rather just order what I can afford and pay for that. Sometimes I'll go out to eat with a friend who will insist on paying for my meal because he knows my financial situation. I feel weird about it because I've always paid my own way, but it's the only way I'd be able to go out with them.

[seabeyond]

84. i hear ya.

i have been there before. i know what you are talking about.... yup.

[Beacool]

179. Nothing wrong with that.

I have paid for friends' meals when they were going through tough times. I have a job, but if situations were reversed, they would pay for me. What goes around, comes around.

Good luck with the job situation!!!

:pals:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

119. My experience in California has been

Women will pay for all sorts of "just things", "just lunch" or "just drinks" or "just a movie" but when it comes to the whole ritualistic date they expect to be wooed if you will.

[tabbycat31]

128. I don't

but everytime I've gone out with my guy, I have $$ out ready to pay my half and he insists that I put it away.

[HEyHEY]

132. I always look at it as if I ask someone out then I pay.

If we decided to go out again, we'll figure it out then. That said, most girls I've dated always insisted they pay too. That could just be cause I was in Vancouver, which is pretty progressive. In China, however, the dude ALWAYS pays.

[Silver Swan]

136. When I divorced back in 1999 after 27 years of marriage

It took me a while to realize that things had changed.

I went out with a few men, and didn't think of offering to pay. But after a couple of dates, I never heard from them again. When I did offer to pay the first time, the man accepted gratefully.

The next guy I dated, I told him on our second date that it was my turn to pay. He declined, and said he believed the man should pay.

He is my husband now, so we both pay our share.

[spooky3]

139. Because, per Miss Manners, whoever does the inviting should expect to pay, unless

they agree before the invitation is accepted that they will do something else.

When we get to the point that men and women are equally likely to invite and be approved for doing so, then maybe everyone will agree about this - but maybe not. Would your son and his male friends feel comfortable if girls asked them out, or would they think those girls were forward or desperate or something else negative?

Even though this hasn't been achieved, many people in longer term relationships share expenses, especially if they have access to similar levels of money.

[seabeyond]

193. lol... really, that has been his dating experience. one very persistent girl.

she did a year of asking before he finally went out. and then she asked mostly after that. i did encourage him do some asking, to get used to it. they split the cost because he like her, but not gf. no, he does not think bad of her or fall for that part of tradition. thinking it is only the guys role to ask. would love for a girl to ask.

that girl was the best thing for my son, lol. i loved her. not shy at all.

[Liquorice]

145. Women still make less than men, not to mention all kinds of other

privileges that go along with being a man in our society. I don't really have a problem with a man paying for dinner. I've been married for 13 years, but back when I was dating, my experience was that men who offered to pay for the date were nice guys in other ways, and men who didn't tended to be jerks in other ways. Of course, that is just my personal experience, but the couple of guys I went on dates with who insisted on going dutch turned out to be really HORRIBLE sexist creeps. Maybe that was just a coincidence. I started thinking of it as an indicator of something bad, though, based on what I experienced.

This applies to the beginning of the relationship, when a couple is first dating. Later in the relationship, things are different and either one paying doesn't make a difference.

I know these topics can get heated so all of this is JMO in case anyone gets angry by anything I said! :yoiks:

[bigwillq]

178. I like when my guy pays.

I actually encourage it! :) :rofl:

[pansypoo53219]

190. price of make up, bras, pretty close and finally

less in the pay check. depending.

[Tx4obama]

191. If a man asks a woman out he should pay, open the door, and push her chair in.

I am a liberated woman that likes old-fashioned men.

[joshcryer]

194. Hah! :)

Nice.

[Tx4obama]

192. Here ya go seabeyond

Here's an article posted on DU regarding your topic

Why Are Men So Angry?
Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=530410&mesg_id=530410

[a la izquierda]

195. I usually went dutch with my boyfriends...

unless it was a birthday.
My husband and I have a joint account (for various reasons that made sense a long time ago). We take turns "paying," although once the money goes in from paychecks its equally ours, so it doesn't really matter. I wanted it this way to keep there from ever being resentment about money-we have our own savings accounts if we want stuff that's extravagant, or for Christmas/birthday presents.

[seabeyond]

196. husband and i were talking about this the other day. seperate accounts.

but we were talking about a couple that has three kids. mom is homeschooling. dad alots money to her to pay household. she comes up shy often and struggles. he has the rest for him. dont get it at all.

hubby and i have always had money in one account, his is mine. we dont have money issues because both of us spend about the same, with me coming up more fiscally conservative. but there is no spending issue. i can see it if people have different spending habits. i can see that being a marriage saver. otherwise.... i dont get it.

not that i care what others do...

we each figure our marriage out on our own.

[a la izquierda]

198. Yeah, i couldn't care what others do or think...

it works best for us, especially when my husband was touring 9 months of the year and only getting cash. It was so much easier to just dump it in a bank and let me handle the bills.
When he was making more, it was understood that once the money went in, it was all equal...and that someday I'd probably make quadruple what he'll end up making.
It helps keep us sane.

But it is funny for him to pull out his card on my birthday and say "I'll pay." Hee hee!

[seabeyond]

199. ha ha ha. in this very conservative area, i love pulling out card to pay for dinner

something so nothing, yet there is a reaction when i do it. check always goes to hubby, i always pay and figure the tip. and hubby and i giggle just for the fact it is not the norm, and reality, it is all in one.

[WinkyDink]

197. The man who doesn't, at least initially, is a cheapskate at heart. He will protest the cost of

things forever.

An ungenerous man in the early stages of a relationship is a warning sign. Paying for the date is a test, not a requirement.

[seabeyond]

200. i dont see that at all. my son will turn 16 soon and between school, cross country

there is not a lot of time to make money. getting a vehicle and paying gas and insurance. i cant see it being ungenerous not paying for everything. i see it as a reality, if he wants to date.

personally, i never met the man that didnt insist on paying. i just insisted harder if there was a date, i paid my way, too. so i dont know about the man you talk about

[joshcryer]

202. Pfft, if I ran across your twin it'd be like an infinite loop.

"I got the bill." :)

"Oh, no, I'm paying my half."

"But no! I have it, no worries!" :D

"No! I'm paying!"

*bill rips in half*

(I'm kidding I don't actually mind splitting the bill, it does make me feel like I'm being rejected though, guess it's the values I was taught.)

[seabeyond]

203. nah. cause i do it up front

and i dont do the splitting of a bill. that doesnt feel like a date. and it does not have to be perfectly balanced. it is more

i will pay movies, you pay the dinner.

ok

and off we go, lol lol

[joshcryer]

204. Gotcha, and yeah as I said up thread, generally that's how it works (at least for me).

I ask you out, I pay. You ask me out, you pay (though I might offer to pay because I am trying to be gentlemanly and if you decline that's fine). We both decide to go out together and pay for ourselves (I do not offer to pay then! very bad form; edit, unless you are having money trouble then it's a nice gesture, I should say, I've had people do that for me and I've loved them for it beyond reason, no shame in helping a friend enjoy a night out!). That's how I see it, imo.

[seabeyond]

205. thumbs up. nt

[WinkyDink]

208. I said "man" specifically for a reason, and not "teen-ager."

[seabeyond]

210. gotcha. thanks. nt

[WinkyDink]

262. Cool. :-)

[joshcryer]

201. I'm an extraoridinary cheapskate, but I respect the formal conditions for dating.

If I ask someone out I'm paying (unless they want to split the bill in which case I don't press it). Really it feels hardwired to me to have a compulsion to pay. I've yet to have someone tell me that they're paying, so it'll be weird if / when it happens.

[Bunny]

206. If you're dating with the intention of finding Mr./Ms. Right, pay close attention

to how they deal with money. You'll get clues from the very first date. It's been mentioned that money problems are the number one cause of divorce, and I think that's probably true. Finding someone with a compatible money style can really make a difference in the long term success of the relationship.

And if you just want to fuck? Then the guy buys the meal.

[seabeyond]

212. lol... first, i agree.

having experienced my brother and his wife, watching the spending of the money and the stress and ultimate divorce it created, that was a huge consideration on my part. not what mate could give me, but what he brings to the relationship. i had a house and my stuff and was making it. i wasnt gonna lose that. i only asked that if i could take care of me, the guy be able to take care of himself. i needed no more than that.

the premiss with the fuck is, that he is wanting it more, or rewarded more by a fuck, ergo he should pay. that is totally against how i believe and how i want to be seen as a woman. that fuck is as much for me as him. he earns it no more than i do. that is the part i laughed at....with my lol.

[Bunny]

214. Psssttt...

I enjoy the fuck as much as he does, too. ;)

[seabeyond]

215. this is another issue i am having with culture today and stressing with the boys

the all empowering male sexuality to the point where they totally dismiss female sexuality. women dont like sex. men like sex.

WTF?????

where did that come from

women are more free in their sexuality, par with male in behavior and men striving, desperate to create women as nonsexual except in entertaining them.

[Beacool]

229. I agree.

I hate cheapskates!! I don't mean a man who is going through tough financial times or a guy who's being taken advantage by some greedy woman. I mean a man who almost cries every time he has to spend a buck.

I know someone in her 50s who has a body to die for. The guy she's engaged to obviously enjoys its benefits, but when it comes to helping her financially (she doesn't have much money) he weasels out or makes promises that he doesn't keep. For example, when her boiler broke and needed to be replaced, she asked him for help because she didn't have the entire amount for a new boiler. He eventually helped her, but he acted like she had asked him for his left kidney. She's broken off the engagement twice already. He always comes running back and promises to mend his ways, but after time passes he falls back into his old habits.

I would have dumped him ages ago, I think that she's just afraid to be alone.

:(

[Liquorice]

299. I agree. As I posted upthread, my past experience with guys who don't

offer to pay at least for the first few dates is bad and became a warning sign for me too.

[snooper2]

219. You solve this issue by having sex first...

The first one to orgasm has to pay for dinner :rofl:

[seabeyond]

221. ah ha. you know

whatever works.

[AngryAmish]

220. Being able and willing to pay is a signifier of high status in men

In most societies and sub-cultures.

In a small very religious community the most pious has the most status.

In a eco-commune or the ilk the most dedicated to living greenly gets the most status.

Ladies like the high status guys.

And everywhere the guys like the pretty girls.

We are made that way. (and I am not intentionally baiting you with this evo-psych stuff, but it is a benefit!)

[seabeyond]

223. there are a lot of women out there not marrying for money.

there are many women on the thread stating money is not what they were looking for.

i think it is the continually telling this is who women are regardless of all evidence showing that is not what happens.

you could not pay me to marry one of those "high status" men. and i was in an environment and had the opportunity. the pressure. i had no desire to live that life. comfort works for me. that isnt what people live.

but for the fact that "Being able and willing to pay is a signifier of high status in men" set up all women as in the position of looking for this, ergo, it must be true that that is how we know evo psych is true.

oh, and those girls/women attracted to good looking men, equally to males wanting pretty women is ignored and dismissed to make the whole thing work. are you really telling me that girls/women dont go after the hot guys...

[AngryAmish]

228. Oh sure. Being hot gives one higher status.

And there is plenty of research that says women are more likely to have sex with a handsome dude (even one night stands and cheating).

Marriage and relationships can be thought of as an exchange. The ones that last tend (and note the word tend since we must speak in generalities or else an intelligent conversation is impossible) to be each partner bringing something of value to the table. Each partner tries to maximize their relationship capital. Straight women wear makeup to improve their looks because men value that. Lesbians wear less makeup - in general, please- but have other signifiers of status in that subculture. Some men study finance, other guys join bands.

When a guy is low status his wife is less happy if she is higher status. and vice versa. Status is not just looks and money, tho.

[seabeyond]

231. the thing about holding onto this as a must doesnt work for me because

in a very few decades many of the things that were known as biological, dna programmed has fallen along the wayside with women becoming sexually free, career oriented and educated. we could not have such an huge step in evolution in such a small time. all encompassing. it indicates to me, much of it is simply conditioned.

the majority of people marry within their social structure. the most successful marriages are amongst people that marry those that are raised in the same manner, same class, same perceptions in life, same education.

from my point of view, success is in the equality and sameness, as opposed to what you suggest.

[lapislzi]

222. I've never been on a date.

If I go out with a non-romantic/sexual friend or friends, we split the bill(s), no matter who asks who, unless it's a birthday or other special occasion and the honoree gets treated. This is stipulated in advance.

If I go out with a current or prospective romantic/sexual partner, the person who does the asking usually does the paying, although this is open to negotiation at any time before, during, or after the encounter. Disclosure: I'm a woman, and I never "expected" anything from anyone, unless the man specifically indicated his intention to pay. This was only the case when the man in question was obviously well-to-do and better off than I. And yes, I don't believe I've ever been on a "date." That's another discussion.

Since I'm married now, it all comes out of the same pocket, and whoever whips out their card first picks up the tab.

[Little Star]

226. When a man asks me out for a dutch treat date, if I accept, then I'll ...

pay for myself. Until then, I expect the person asking to pay. Same would go for a female asking for a date/dutch date.

I've never been asked out on a dutch date by a male. And I've never asked a male out on a dutch date. I have however asked plenty of other females out on a dutch date.

The person asking for a date needs to state 'dutch treat' if that is what they want.

[ismnotwasm]

227. They shouldn't

But consider, we still have 'ladies night' and other institutions that are just a cover for, well just call them modern mating rituals.

I know a lot of young women who pay for their own. Or trade off costs in courtesy. What those ones are telling me, is the men they date are having a hard time defining their masculinity, that they're receiving conflicting signals about 'what women what' when women are assertive or bucking 'traditions'.

[upi402]

230. Camille Paglia used to drive me nuts

I used to think she was a right wing tool. But as I get older and see more of life, she makes more sense.

[seabeyond]

239. there is a lot she says i dont like. and there are things she says i think she is

rw tool, also. but no one is all wrong, or i dont find that much. what is it you are referring to about paglia. curious.

[upi402]

252. from a distant memory, but...

I recall her ranting about women being able to carry themselves and shouldn't depend on men to prop them up. I seem to recall her commenting on fairness too. I took for for a RWer at the time and a faux feminist -trying to sell a book maybe. (No firm conclusion though)

[slackmaster]

235. An accounts payable guy once explained to me - If you don't ask for free stuff, you won't get it

Asking doesn't cost you anything, and sometimes it pays off.

[krabigirl]

236. Because they want to? None of anyone else's business, really, is it?

[seabeyond]

237. wow, you know, with this snarky comment we can not talk about ANYTHING on a discussion board

huh

why dont you lead us in all the conversations you deem acceptable.

[REP]

264. "i don't think much of the woman that expects it. lol. just sayin." Start with snark, expect more.

[seabeyond]

265. opinion? not allowed? nt

[REP]

266. The comment in the OP wasn't opinion; it was judgmental hogwash. Just sayin' lol

The poster you were replying to above was giving her opinion, but since you didn't agree, it was "snarky." just sayin' lol

[Forkboy]

240. Everytime I start to think I should get together with someone I read a DU thread on gender.

And I once again become very glad to be alone. :scared:

[seabeyond]

241. ah hahaha. chicken. lol. nt

[Forkboy]

242. A smart chicken.

;)

[Tsiyu]

243. As the mom of five sons and one daughter

I only know what I've seen, and I've seen my daughter pay for plenty of dates, or do the Dutch thing.

The gender wars are funny as hell, because there's so much generalization the truth gets lost.

Men bashing women, women bashing men. How freaking stupid and non-productive. People need to get over their bitterness. It's paralyzing some of you...

"Oooh, someone screwed me over and now I know all (men, women) are just dogs! Woe is me wah wah wah!"


How pathetic....

[LanternWaste]

244. I'm the first to say that I usually insist on paying.

I'm the first to say that I usually insist on paying, partly due to tradition and partly due to the type of woman I date (traditional, that is). Not that I expect *anything* in return (as was indiscreetly implied up-thread by one of our new resident Australopithecus), I simply believe that as it's something expected of me, I'll gladly do it (I imagine that were I not glad to be doing it, I wouldn't be there in the first place...)

No resentment about paying on my part, no expectations either... just hoping to have a nice dinner with some nice company.

[seabeyond]

246. lol lol, to a part of your post.

you are so cute. and good to hear your perspective.. next time i am in your area, i will buy you a drink, lol.

[taught_me_patience]

245. The person who asks should pay

In my experience, the guy asks 99.995% of the time...

[JoePhilly]

256. Way too much nuance in this thread.

When we discuss teens, the person who asks pays. This is usually the guy. Big deal.

In early adulthood, if the guy asks, usually he pays as well. He has indicated an interest in the girl, and as a polite gesture, he also offers to pay. If the date does not work out, it cost her nothing more than time.

After that, say after a few dates ... the COUPLE decides how to split the costs of a date. Back when I was single, I had women say "let me pay tonight" ... and I'd say "sure, but don't just expect sex later, we have to see how things go" ... which was a great line, I got free dinner and sex.

My point is that any couple can figure this out. Its not rocket science.

Oh ... and your son should, if he is smart, he'll pay. My 17 year old son just paid for brunch with a girl who he isn't actually dating. Worst case, she'll tell her friends what a nice guy he is. That's a win-win.

[seabeyond]

259. i love your line. that is so cute.

yes son wants to pay. yes i would like to see girls not cotton to the tradition and insist on paying, too. not my sons idea. what i feel. he gets to do it his way.

[JoePhilly]

261. Today's teens have to make their own decisions on this.

Just as we did. It is very easy to look back and think about what we did. Or what we expected.

But as a teen, you have relatively nothing to drawn on. Sure, even if you have a great relationship with your parents, their advice is "dry" ... old ... lacks the required emotional element. Its become intellectual.

As I look back, my wife of almost 21 years, who comes from a very southern tradition, expected me to pay early on. Unless she was proposing the event.

She is now, as she was then, one of the strongest women I've ever known. But she also, still, thinks that a man should continue some old traditions.

As a related example ... I "should" have asked her father for her hand in marriage, right? But I did not. See, she and I decided to live together first, and when she made that decision, her father, basically stopped talking to her. When she would call, he would immediately give the phone to her mother. THAT really pissed me off. I would have done the "traditional thing" and asked him first ... but when he treated her that way ... nope ... sorry ... he was not ASKED, he was TOLD.

She and I found out own way through the "gender traditions", our son (and daughters) will as well.

[seabeyond]

267. i dont dictate my sons behavior. has a damn fine head on his shoulders as far as decision

making. as i said.... his to do. agree with you.

[ecstatic]

260. On the first few dates, of course he should pay! It's about respect

Guys have it so easy nowadays. They don't even try anymore--so many women are willing to bend over backwards while he puts in little or no effort.

I'm involved now, but in the past, if a guy--especially one I didn't know-- asked me out on a date, he had to pay because he had to show me that he was serious about getting to know me. If he can't put that little bit of effort in (or can't afford it) then it's better that he not waste his or my time.

[seabeyond]

268. how is it reciprocated? what is the equal that we are showing him the respect we define

for men.

not being snarky on this, but curious. i am hearing a theme that the man must prove himself in a way with this, but i am not seeing anything that suggests there is some kind of tradition where a woman must prove herself to the man in the same way.

this is merely intellectual exploration and curiosity.

[ecstatic]

284. That's why any guy must be selective in

who he chooses to ask out. Make sure to observe first, and be sure that she's worth the $15-$20. :p

[seabeyond]

286. ah. so a vested interest in whom he choses. lol. ok. nt

[Codeine]

277. What are you putting into it to earn his respect? nt

[Lucian]

263. It's common etiquette.

When someone asks someone out to dinner, the person who asked pays. It's like that for dates, hanging out with friends, and so on. The one who asks, pays.

It has nothing to do with sexism, racism, ageism, or any of the other "-isms."

[seabeyond]

270. i have never in a lifetime expected a friend to pay my way when we went out. ever. never a thought

i have one friend that would always allow me to pay when we are hanging out and began to bug me and i quit going out to lunch with her.

interesting. maybe that is why she expected me to pay for her each and every time. kids and i would go out and about, i asked if she wanted to go, cause she was bored. so she expected me to pay. that is yukky to me.

interesting. hm

[PBS Poll-435]

274. I'm getting ribs and a Margarita. And maybe some cheesecake.

:yoiks:

[PBS Poll-435]

269. I want to post on this thread so bad. So, so bad

But I'm not gonna.

[seabeyond]

271. ooops, you did too. nt

[PBS Poll-435]

272. :-)

LOL



I mean what I really think. :P

[cynatnite]

278. All I can say is that when husband and I dated, whoever had money paid...

Didn't matter if it was me or him. We didn't care. :)

[seabeyond]

279. i hear ya. i like that. nt

[cynatnite]

283. We were pretty broke in those days...kinda like we are now. :) n/t

[seabeyond]

287. i like it. because i dont want a man to feel his worth is in his money. and i dont

think the quality of who he is is if he can afford to buy me dinner.

your attitude is very comfortable for me.

[shanti]

280. i dunno

i have four grown sons (3 under 30) and none of them have had the money to fork over for many dates. in fact, it's usually the girls paying for the dates i don't like it, but not much i could do about it.

[Honeycombe8]

282. Because men like it that way (they think of themselves as "providers") and lots of women like it `

that way (they think of themselves as "being taken care of" or "treated" by the man). Plus, it's tradition. Why drink egg nog at Christmas? Why put up a Christmas tree if you're religious, since trees are pagan? Why give your sweetie something sweet on Valentine's Day?

Tradition.

When they both know the woman makes more $, though, I think that bills are being shared more often. I don't hear of women paying, though. I don't think men would like that. At least not any men I know.

I tried paying for my share years ago; he threw my $ out the window.

[seabeyond]

285. ah ha. cute. (money out window). thanks. nt

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

288. Doesn't this happen to everyone?

The waiter give the man the check? The woman has to ask for it.

That's pretty much reinforcing social mores.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

292. You know what this discussion really lacks?

Women who expect men to pay for every thing.

We know you're out there lurking. Speak up!

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

307. what i see that really lacks is the men that think it ought to be both genders paying

i see a lot of women that pay their share. i see a lot more (i think) women that think person who asks (man) should pay at least the first couple dates. i see men saying they ought to pay.

but

i am not seeing men that think that both should share in the cost. i really expected men to be on the thread that yes, ... women too should pay. and that is totally lacking on this thread, to my surprise. for a lot of years, here and there, i have heard this as a complaint from men.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

313. Yes, I noticed that, too...

Withywindle gave her understanding of this, and I agreed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=531006&mesg_id=537631


But I'm going to double-down on you, now. You know what this discussion really, really lacks? Women who expect men to pay for every thing. :)

[seabeyond]

314. can't really say much on that. i wouldnt like that person much.

i dont know any woman like that. i cant think of a one. i am pretty particular with who is in my space, and have people i respect. i wouldnt respect that at all. but then honestly, the man that was willing to allow that wouldnt get a lot of sympathy from me either. unless neither are being abused and put upon. whatever

so

sorry.... :shrug:

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

316. Honest to goodness, this is what my friend posted. This is awesome!

...she's 21 and from Baton Rouge.

I put the "Why are men so angry?" article out on a forum we chat on, and here is her response.

Ahem... woman here. This is my opinion on this. Some women (especially feminists) may disagree, but I was raised in the South, and this is what I believe.

I EXPECT a man to pursue me. I am not calling, initiating any contact or asking men out (or should I say boys because they are who I encounter while in college). As a women, I should not have to pursue a man. It makes me feel un-feminine and less desirable if I am chasing a man, and it makes me feel desired if the man is taking the initiative to contact me. It is a woman's job to express interest and a man's duty to pursue. Men ought to be ashamed of themselves if they expect a woman to pursue them. It is ingrained in the male DNA (basically) to pursue and "hunt". I would surmise that when a man sees a woman he's attracted to and he is able to "get" her, it makes him feel like THE man. If I'm doing all the convo-initiating, I assume the guy just isn't that into me.

Here's a recent example. This guy asked me out and we met at a coffee shop and both had chai lattes. After the date, he told me I could call him if I wanted to hang out. He never heard from me. If this man really was interested in me and wanted to do something, he'd call, which he didn't. I'm not chasing any man. I don't believe in this "21st century woman" and the gender role reversals. I expect a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman.

I don't mind paying for dates from time to time.

EDIT: I should add, I told her that nothing has changed in 20 years when I was her age, and that it is not regional, since I've only lived in the West and Midwest. I dated women like this. I almost married one. The women who are posting in this thread are liberal and strong feminists, so it's not a great sample.

[seabeyond]

318. firstly, how would you like that awesome attitude of the men being "boys" yet she

identifies herself as a woman. insulting? i dont think i will take her up on her lecturing on how to get a man. lol

second..... i didnt play games young, i am sure not into them now. she is playing games. she will continue to play games that she has been taught as what defines a woman, and be pissed if her man deviates from the role society has told him to play. nothing in the dna about that, but her letting others tell her who she is. if people need that defining line so they know how to behave, so be it. be happy. many are not. that is why we get the "women always nag" bullshit, because that is what we are told we are.

third.... man be a man, woman be a woman.... as defined from a patriarchal society. so, her ass should not be getting an education, a vote or equal pay.... so she can continue to be a defined woman to catch her defined man.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

320. hahaha! It was precious, though, wasn't it?!

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

321. i cringed....

you laugh

lol

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

319. seabeyond, what can you make of this?

I think it's safe to say that people are pretty much in agreement, all bets are off if one person is unemployed. So here's how I handled unemployment and dating.

After I got laid off, I started dating someone that I had known for a while. She makes a lot of money, and we both expected that I'd find a job before too long, so no big whoop. We went out on four dates, once a month. She paid for everything. But four months in, my job prospects were getting bleak, so I told her, "I'd like to stop dating until I get a job. I hate the fact that you are paying for everything." She replied, "Don't worry about that. I like you. We have been good friends for a long time. And I make a lot of money, it doesn't matter to me." "But it matters to me," I said. Needless to say, we stopped dating.


Do I have to pay for everything? Not at all. Except for my fiancée, who was a grad student, as an adult, I always paid as a couples. Do I have a hangup about not being able to contribute to the relationship financially, regardless of what else I bring to the relationship? You bet I do.

[seabeyond]

323. what i make of it is....

if you read the OP you will see i, too, have issues owing someone. i, too, would have a tough time having someone pay my way. so i understand why you didnt do it a fifth time. she was probably lonely and enjoying your company, and truly had no issue spending the money because she probably wanted your company, knowing you didnt have the money, willing to pay. i get her part. i feel bad that you werent comfortable, allowing her your company. but i understand.

but then, i dont let my inlaws or my father always pick up the tab when we go out as a family. every so often, i make sure hubby gets the check, regardless of the number of people there. and everyone lets them pay.

i cant do it

but then that is aprt of my personality with a lot of thing. doesnt just extend to money. and it isnt because of social roles i am being told i must follow

[lumberjack_jeff]

325. Not all social opportunities require lots of money.

I would have tried hard to find dating venues which I could afford. Picnic lunch at the park, for instance.

[lumberjack_jeff]

324. Currency in a man's wallet serves the function of a peacock's feathers.

They do little good if they are not displayed.

[seabeyond]

327. actually, when a man uses it as his peacock feathers,.... i am turned off.

tacky

and i cannot tell you how many men have done that. around them often. nothing less attractive

[lumberjack_jeff]

332. We are exceptions to the rule.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/5042640/Women-more-attracted-to-men-in-expensive-cars.html

[UnDued11]

296. I always thought itwas more about who asked whom

When we are young and poor, the person doing the asking was "presumed" be be the one inviting the other and who was expecting to pay.

If a guy said, why don't we go get a bite to eat...and it was a spur of the moment thing, I always expected to pay for my own, but if a guy called me up and said, I'd like to take you out on Friday..where would you like to go?...well that was a date, and I would have expected him to pay for our meals. If I asked him to go , I would pay and would expect to pay..but of course back in the stone age when I last dated (today is our 41st anniversary), I would not have asked a guy out..

If I say come over to my place for dinner, I expect to provide the dinner..not much different from inviting someone to dinner at a restaurant.

[seabeyond]

297. welcome. and i guess that is defining. "i would like to take you out". nt

[JI7]

300. most i know don't expect the guy to pay

[JI7]

301. I do expect a guy to cook for me but i would be willing to pay for the ingredients

[Fearless]

309. I'm a fan of the "trade off"

One person pays for everything on the date one time and then the other person does the same the next time. The rules are: 1. That the actual cost is irrelevant. If date B cost more than date A it doesn't matter. It is an even trade. And, 2. The person paying determines what the date is. When the person paying determines what is done, they feel as though they are giving a gift to their date. It promotes healthy give and take, where neither partner feels obligated to pay and neither feels taken advantage of, as you essentially do it to yourself. (You pick what you pay for.)

[NeedleCast]

310. I've been off the market a little while now but

in most of my dating history I've paid for the first few dates with the same girl. At some point (generally half a dozen dates minimum) we've started splitting. I'll always offer to pay for several months though. My current girlfriend and I live together now and have been together since August of 2009. In terms of salary I make marginally more than she does (about 35% more annually) so I'd say I pay for about 40% of our times out, she pays for about 20% and we split about 40%.

I can't speak for everyone but that's really worked out for us. We're both foodies and like to eat out a lot and by splitting checks or trading off who's paying we can go out more. Otherwise, if we're going out to do something that requires money, the person who's activity it is pays. We both like live musis. She's an Indie fan, I'm a rocker. If we go to see one her shows, she buys my ticket, and vice versa. For major household stuff, we try to split about 60-40. We purchased a new bed recently and split it that way (although I do tease her and call myself the majority share-holder of the bed, thus I get to sleep on 60% and she gets 40%).

Before meeting my current girl, I dated quite a bit. Maybe it's the Texan in me, but I'd always offer to pay, even if it was a bad date and while it would make me slightly uncomfortable, I'd be happy to split if she suggested it.

[RedCloud]

311. A lady once bought me a beer by complete surprise!

I decided to never let it happen again, just to have a unique moment in my life.

Wine still waiting.

Pizza too.

[seabeyond]

312. lol, that is so sweet, and unique conclusion you came to.

felt good though, huh.

[RedCloud]

315. Yes the beer was good, on a hot day by a beach.

It was in group of acquaintances and we did not know everyone there, so that was a good icebreaker.

[KansDem]

326. I don't know...there were times I'd take a woman out on a date who was employed and I wasn't...

...or who made twice what I was making, and when it came time to pay for dinner, the bill was given to me and no discussion. The woman was usually gathering up her coat and purse and waiting on me...

I now go out a lot on my own...movie, dinner, clubs, etc...

[seabeyond]

328. doesnt it feel....

wrong, lol.

i hear ya.

[Cleita]

329. I prefer dutch treat myself, unless where my date wants

to go is too expensive for me. Then I expect him to pay if he's better off than me and still wants me to attend with him. However, I might offer to pay for tips or chip in for other additional expenses.