The David Epstein incest case: If homosexuality is OK, why is incest wrong?

[rpannier]

snip

When a young man falls in love with another man, no family is destroyed. Homosexuality is largely immutable, as the chronic failure of "ex-gay" ministries attests. So if you forbid sex between these two men, neither of them is likely to form a happy, faithful heterosexual family. The best way to help them form a stable family is to encourage them to marry each other.

Incest spectacularly flunks this test. By definition, it occurs within an already existing family. So it offers no benefit in terms of family formation. On the contrary, it injects a notoriously incendiary dynamic—sexual tension—into the mix. Think of all the opposite-sex friendships you and your friends have cumulatively destroyed by "crossing the line." Now imagine doing that to your family. That's what incest does. Don't take my word for it. Read The Kiss. Or the sad threads on pro-incest message boards. Or what Woody Allen's son says about his dad: "He's my father married to my sister. That makes me his son and his brother-in-law. That is such a moral transgression. I cannot see him. I cannot have a relationship with my father …"

Homosexuality is an orientation. Incest isn't. If the law bans gay sex, a lesbian can't have a sex life. But if you're hot for your sister, and the law says you can't sleep with her, you have billions of other options. Get out of your house, for God's sake. You'll find somebody to love without incinerating your family. And don't tell me you're just adding a second kind of love to your relationship. That's like adding a second kind of life to your body. When a second kind of life grows in your body, we call it cancer. That's what incest is: cancer of the family.

link:
http://www.slate.com/id/2277787?wpisrc=obinsite

The first part of the story is a set up for the ending.
I posted the ending three paragraphs because I think his argument is good once he explores all the arguments from people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. He mistates a few things in his zeal, espcially the liberal/progressive position

that mutually consenting adults have the right to partner as they see fit. Not saying I like it, but anything else is wrong.

[Xenotime]

49. Thank you. I support all forms of progressive thought.

[laconicsax]

2. FWIW, the Bible says that incest is OK in some situations.

Genesis 19:30-36

And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

Such wholesome family values! Remember, these are the same daughters that Lot offered up to be gang raped earlier in the chapter.

[gkegley]

35. I don't think it means it's ok

There are a lot of historical passages that should not be taken as condoning. I think this is one of them. So is the one where Noah got sot drunk after the flood. I don't think you can use that passage as saying "God said to get drunk." I think it's a misuse of this one to say "God says incest is okay in certain situations."

[laconicsax]

38. There are two ways to look at it.

The first is that the behavior was condoned (along with the "please rape my daughters" bit earlier in the story) because Lot gets held up as role model later.

The second is that the story is political propaganda. The Moabites and Ammonites were perpetual enemies of the Jews in antiquity and along the way, someone decided to say that two tribes were the descendants of drunken father-daughter humping. (Behavior not condoned.)

The latter way is probably significantly more accurate, but the former is a lot more fun when you want to point out that not everything in the Bible is fantastic.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. It shouldn't be prosecuted.

[Ghost in the Machine]

5. Junior! Run next door and see if'n yer uncle daddy is there wif cousin granny again!

:hi:

[Behind the Aegis]

8. Doesn't change the fact it shouldn't be prosecuted,

even if your mores are offended.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillParkinson]

4. First off...

"When a young man falls in love with another man, no family is destroyed..." is completely ridiculous. Ask any of the gay youth that are on the streets because they've been kicked out of their homes.

Secondly, while I am not an advocate for incest it is certainly not my place to decide who can and cannot love each other. As long as they are consenting adults they can make their own decision. People cannot help who they fall in love with.

[Sherman A1]

6. You said it right

"As long as they are consenting adults they can make their own decision. People cannot help who they fall in love with." The whole issue in my opinion is "consenting adults" who should have the freedom to do as they wish without interference from others.

[JDPriestly]

7. The problem with incest and other marriages between close relatives

(sometimes first cousins) is the increased rate of birth defects due to normally recessive genes. That's why, in this time, we do not permit marriages between close family members. Some ethnic groups have intermarry within their small social group a lot. Genetically caused physical problems can result.

[Bobbieo]

9. Birth defects!!!! This is why incest is such a taboo among many Indian tribes!

This is why clans were formed.

[quaker bill]

10. Inbreeding is a bad thing

not because it is a taboo, or socially ackward, but because it results in unusually large numbers of birth defects.

[Bobbieo]

13. Inbreeding was a detriment among nomadic tribes which depended on everyone

having an active role in the survival of the group.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. And if no "breeding" occurs? Is it still "bad?"

[quaker bill]

18. It is socially ackward

and in most cases probably very emotionally unfortunate, but, people have the basic right to freely choose to arrange their personal lives in a great variety of emotionally unfortunate ways. Most of these choices are not the subject of law enforcement. I personally would likely not approve, but then, there are a great many other emotionally unfortunate things I would not approve of or be an advocate for, however, given consenting adults are involved, I would not choose to use the instruments of state crime and punishment in this way. We have far bigger issues to police than whatever consenting adults choose to do in their bedrooms.

Why you would choose to be an advocate for this cause escapes me.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. So what if it is "socially awkward?

"Why you would choose to be an advocate for this cause escapes me."

Please prove your assertion or will you just admit it is nothing more than a strawman?

[Forkboy]

57. Well I'd certainly hate for the human race to become fucked up.

:evilgrin:

[Turborama]

12. The pros and cons of incest a valid topic of debate for GD?

What's next? Coprophilia?

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Is this a discussion board or not?

Perhaps we shouldn't discuss what people feel might be "icky?"

[Turborama]

16. I don't come here for discussions about the pros and cons of particular sexual deviances

In fact, I don't go anywhere for those discussions.

However, I'm sure there are plenty of discussion boards dedicated to such topics all over the internet for those who are interested in such matters.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stevenmarc]

24. Here's a concept

there's a Hide Thread box, when you hit it your problem goes away.

[Turborama]

25. Here's a suggestion for you...

Click on this and you'll never have to see any of my posts ever again: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=ignore_member&iid=227339&level=three">

[Stevenmarc]

28. I'm fairly sure

that wont be any great loss

[Turborama]

30. Go for it, then.

I honestly am not and wouldn't be offended.

[AngryAmish]

37. There are furries around here. I think no subject can be taboo if they are allowed.

[rug]

48. GD loves to discuss shit.

[Vickers]

17. "Get out of your house, for God's sake."

:rofl:

Just when I think DU can't surprise me anymore: I find out some people here are OK with incest.

:crazy:

[EOTE]

19. Not wanting to prosecute something is not the same as being OK with it.

There are some people who'd be perfectly fine making anything they find gross to be illegal. Others take a more mature approach.

[cali]

22. a teen daughter having intercourse with her father without prior abuse

and grooming is vanishingly rare.

[Vickers]

23. I don't find it "gross." I find it "fucked up beyond all comprehension."

But hey, if you're OK with it, whatever.

Hopefully the daughter-fuckers can get their own forum soon.

:crazy:

[EOTE]

31. Reading problems?

I suppose you think that everything you find fucked up or gross should be illegal. Hey, that's a pretty fascist view point, but whatever suits you.

[Vickers]

40. Please point out to me where I said it should be illegal.

:eyes:

Reading problems, indeed!

[EOTE]

41. I know you'll need this in simple terms, so let me explain.

You make a reply stating that you can't believe that DUers are OK with incest (sign #1 you're not very good at reading as NO ONE has said they're OK with incest, just that it shouldn't be illegal.) Now, as you've made that comment, it suggests that you're NOT OK with the posts saying that incest shouldn't be illegal, got it? So, which is it? Do you think it should be illegal? Or are you one of those sick fuckers that thinks incest is OK? You've got to be one or the other.

[Vickers]

46. I don't like Escalades, but I don't think they should be illegal.

Now do you get it? You DO see the difference, right?

"Or are you one of those sick fuckers that thinks incest is OK?"

Sounds like you are, dude...you're the one for decriminalizing it!

:rofl:

Now run along, and stay away from your kids!!!

:rofl:

[bluestate10]

44. Hail, Hail!!!! nt.

[stray cat]

26. If both are adults -

[cali]

27. it doesn't "just happen".

It happens because of what the parent has done.

[Vickers]

29. Why blame the parent???

:sarcasm:

[me b zola]

32. I suspect that most incest exists because of inappropriate sexual conduct

with the children of that family. A long time ago I had an acquaintance who was more sexually attracted to his sisters than with normal women--and they were all sexually abused by their father and forced to commit sexual acts with each other. I realize that this is just one family, but I imagine that this is an underlying cause in people who desire sexual relationships with family members as adults.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. I think there are two arguments against incest even between consenting adults.

One is the obvious genetic one. I think that conceiving children with people you share more than 10% of your genetic material with (parents, granparents, children, grandchildren, nephews/nieces, uncles/aunts and first cousins) is deeply immoral, and that having sex with such people unless one of you has had a vasectomy/hysterectomy or similar should probably be illegal.

Secondly, even if children aren't a risk, if you allow sex between people who grew up together it's hard to rule out pressure to have sex later being applied to the very young.

I'm not convinced either of those arguments is sufficient to justify a blanket ban on incest, but it's relatively low down my list of political priorities.

[bemildred]

34. Nobody wants Daddy to be Grandad too. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

39. Look at the positives. It'd cut down on the need for so many birthday and christmas presents...

Of course the family tree gets nearly as complicated as that of the Forresters and Logans of Bold & The Beautiful fame, but that's a small price to pay for having to buy one less gift! ;)

[lame54]

36. said the 3 armed boy

[ProSense]

42. "If homosexuality is OK, why is incest wrong?"

Such curious timing, and what's the point of comparing homosexuality to incest? Does anyone compare heterosexuality to incest?

The comparison is ludicrous.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. i agree with prosense, why do we compare every sexual issue to homosexuality?

wtf logic is that?

[bluestate10]

45. Huh??

WTF! Homosexuality is a natural condition. Incest is vile and disgusting, like shooting fish in a barrel.

[GreenStormCloud]

47. Google "Genetic Sexual Attraction" and be amazed.

If you and your close relative happen to meet each other for the first time when you are already adults you are very likely to be strongly sexually attracted to each other.

If you grow up together, you will are unlikely to be attracted.

It is a quirk of the way evolution has programmed us.

[Hello_Kitty]

52. Ever read "The Kiss"?

True story of a woman who'd been separated from her father since infancy. When they re-met they had a sexual relationship.

[Raksha]

54. I never read "The Kiss" and wasn't aware it was about father/daughter incest.

Did they know they were father and daughter when they became involved sexually?

[Hello_Kitty]

56. Yep. They knew. eom

[Raksha]

53. That doesn't surprise me at all.

Re "If you and your close relative happen to meet each other for the first time when you are already adults you are very likely to be strongly sexually attracted to each other.

You are very likely to have similar tastes and interests to that person, for what turn out to be obvious reasons. "Opposites attract" has never been true for me--I've always been most attracted to guys I strongly identify with.

I have a friend who was recently reunited with the daughter she gave up for adoption about 50 years ago. Later after my friend was married she had five more children. She says it's a good thing her oldest daughter never met her son, because they were so much alike the odds are they would have been attracted to each other. They might have done something about it if they didn't realize they were brother and sister. And they would not have known, because it happened back in the days of strictly anonymous or "sealed" adoptions.

[LisaL]

50. What does "consenting adults" mean if it is about a parent and a child?

A parent-child relationship does not stop just because a child turns 18.
Especially these days. Many parents are materially supporting their children long after the child turns 18, especially if the child goes to college.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. It means all parties are adults.nt.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Ugh. This is just as annoying as the "slippery slope" to polygamy argument.

The vast majority of incest and polygamy occurs with heterosexuals. Oh noes! Hetero sex is leading to all sorts of perversions!