PFC Manning Forced to Strip Naked (& stand at front of his cell-for seven hours)

[kpete]

Source: Army Court Marshall Defense

03 March 2011
PFC Manning Forced to Strip Naked

Last night, PFC Manning was inexplicably stripped of all clothing by the Quantico Brig. He remained in his cell, naked, for the next seven hours. At 5:00 a.m., the Brig sounded the wake-up call for the detainees. At this point, PFC Manning was forced to stand naked at the front of his cell.

The Duty Brig Supervisor (DBS) arrived shortly after 5:00 a.m. When he arrived, PFC Manning was called to attention. The DBS walked through the facility to conduct his detainee count. Afterwards, PFC Manning was told to sit on his bed. About ten minutes later, a guard came to his cell to return his clothing.

This type of degrading treatment is inexcusable and without justification. It is an embarrassment to our military justice system and should not be tolerated. PFC Manning has been told that the same thing will happen to him again tonight. No other detainee at the Brig is forced to endure this type of isolation and humiliation.

Read more: http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2011/03/confinement-conditions-worsen.html

[Solly Mack]

1. K&R

[gateley]

2. Well put - an embarrassment to our military justice system. And despicable behavior. nt

[Divine Discontent]

57. hi gateley. It's an embarrassment to a civil society... but I guess this just screams we're not

that civil after all.

I am deeply saddened to hear this is happening to him when there's a Democratic Commander In Chief of the military residing in the WH.

[gateley]

81. I just don't understand it. Okay, so they're pissed because they got the light

turned on them, but that's no justification to allow that kind of behavior. Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, no surprise. But a guy who spent his early years working for the disenfranchised? Difficult to reconcile. At first I was thinking maybe he doesn't have any actual say in military "justice" but he could surely call in the bigwigs and tell them to knock it off. But as you remind me, he IS their Commander In Chief!

And I've been haunted by the memory of watching a news clip of the people outside of Ted Bundy's execution - they were jubilant and I swear, almost salivating. I was sickened. I've never thought we were civilized after that. We're barbarians. :(

[enough]

3. Sounds like Abu Ghraib. (nt)

[RKP5637]

6. Yeah, it does, doesn't. Next will be the dogs. My country left me. n/t

[defendandprotect]

54. Our country has been taken over by fascists -- they don't go away politely -- !!

[gateley]

67. Right ON! nt

[Vattel]

4. fuck our government

[snappyturtle]

5. Unforgiveable! K&R

:mad:

[malaise]

125. +1,000

This is back to the 16th century

[Locrian]

7. disgusting pieces of shit - ashamed of my country - nt

[JDPriestly]

8. How does the Army explain this horrific conduct on its part?

How does Obama condone this. It is unnecessary. Manning is in jail. He has been charged. The government will present its prosecution evidence and arguments. Manning will present his defense evidence and arguments.

This conduct on behalf of our government is not necessary.

This makes the entire trial into a miscarriage of justice. How stupid can the military get? The whole world is watching this.

If Manning committed crimes, he should be tried and sentenced.

But this kind of extrajudicial punishment is reprehensible. It is a violation of human rights and common sense.

[former9thward]

31. They are trying to get him to commit suicide or go insane.

Then potential problems they would have at trial go away.

[me b zola]

110. That is exactly what they are trying to do

:grr:

[shanti]

33. and what is most cringe-worthy, is that this is

happening on obama's watch! :(

[Loki]

9. I just contacted the Defense Department via email

I will probably be on their list, but I don't care. To express my disgust and the dishonor we are showing all those who have served his country in many capacities in the military and in my family that tradition goes all the way back to the the Revolutionary War. We have to let them know that this no longer is something we will support and that this is not what my family sacrificed and shed it's blood and treasure for. We have become no better than the despots that we say abuse their citizenry with unchecked power.

[EFerrari]

11. What address did you use?

I want to do that.

[Loki]

15. I used this one

https://kb.defense.gov/app/ask

I hope more people will do this.

[EFerrari]

29. Thank you, Loki. n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

250. I did...

I asked-

What is the reason for stripping all clothing off by the Quantico Brig and forcing him to remain in his cell like this?

1) Therapeutic
2) Torture

Take your time with this question, as I want the best possible explanation for anything that falls between the two choices

[sabrina 1]

315. Thank you, I will also write. In fact someone should start a

petition and a letter writing campaign until they are inundated with complaints. And it should not be restricted to THIS country. There are plenty of people around the world who have been watching the decline and fall of this country and the crimes being committed who I'm sure would like to have their say also.

[totodeinhere]

40. Email your member of Congress as well and demand a congressional investigation. n/t

[BlueJazz]

10. Typical for the Military "Way of doing things" or as we in reality-land say...

"Ignorant, Mean, Classless and Spiteful"

[No Elephants]

27. You forgot unlawful--tho I would not lump all military together, nor all

military efforts together.

[BlueJazz]

47. No...of course not.

[defendandprotect]

51. Military still has a law on the books against Torture as far as I know --

Bush and now Obama have been the exceptions to this thinking -- !!

[Ken_Fish]

53. Are you saying Obama is torturing him, because he was stripped?(nt)

[liberation]

58. Are you saying that forced nudity and solitary confinement for months are acceptable in a democracy?

Dear lord the depths some people won't dive to justify anything when their favorite political team is in charge...

[Ken_Fish]

59. Will be interesting to see if he tried to suicide or commented on it.

at this point if he kills himself his value as a witness and prisoner is greatly reduced.


Again, is Obama torturing this guy because he had to take his clothes off?

[liberation]

61. Why are you putting a question mark at the end of a red herring?

LOL

[Ken_Fish]

62. You asking the "torture" poster or me?

let me repeat myself. I do not believe Obama is torturing bradley manning ..

Do you?

[defendandprotect]

65. Read the thread -- obviously we all recognize this as TORTURE -- !!

[Ken_Fish]

71. Thats great for you. However this guy is still active duty

so he can be ordered to stand around naked, run around with a rifle, or write a letter to his mom at any time.

He is not a POW and being naked is not torture. Given the LACK OF DATA one could assume he is a suicide risk. Considering he is now charged with crimes that can receive the death penalty this may be a safe bet.

It would look terrible if he killed himself before trial.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coalition_unwilling]

93. You are a grand equivocator, aren't you? Obama is the fucking

Commander in Chief. The buck stops at his desk, as it should. Of course it's torture, it's occurring on Obama's watch. Obama isn't the one actually doing the torture. But through not ordering that it stop, he's enabling and allowing it to proceed.

[sabrina 1]

294. Thank you for having the decency to be outraged over this.

We all used to be outraged when Bush was president. But the silence from the 'left' on these daily crimes and abuses now is deafening.

[Patchuli]

102. Would *you* feel tortured stripped naked

for hours in front of others?

[Ken_Fish]

126. Well considering the Army has limited privacy

in that context no. I'm sure plenty of privates see each others privates on a regular basis.

What harm is being visited on mr manning, other than general unhappiness of prison life?

[msanthrope]

164. But that didn't happen. Read the article. n/t

[defendandprotect]

64. "Interesting ..." -- ?????

I'd suggest most find this frightening on the part of our government/military.

Certainly Obama could stop this --

And, yes, trying to humiliate a prisoner is part of abuse --

And part of torture.

[Ken_Fish]

68. Why would he stop it? The man confessed online and should own up to the crime

its illegal to steal classified information. If he was acting on his "moral compass" he should be willing to accept the penalty for the crime. He was not stripped last week or last month so I would ASSUME (same as you , we have no real info) that he was a suicide risk. At this point why risk his prosecution and conviction just to make him stand around naked.

Prison is humiliating, manning will probably spend the rest of his life in isolation. I find it partially informed, but see no problem with prosecuting the person responsible for the greatest act of espionage in US history.

[defendandprotect]

74. Why would Obama stop torture?

Evidently, whatever Bradley Manning "confessed to" isn't what our military and

Obama are looking for --

Obviously they want WikiLeaks/Assange -- they're doing every sleazy thing they can to get there.

Let's have the MILITARY accept its own accountability for a "moral compass" -- begin with

9/11 MIHOP -- and two wars of aggression -- torture of more than 140,000 prisoners.

You seem to have a certainty of insight into the minds of abusers!

We have no indication that this was anything but torture -- and military can, of course,

claim anything they want. Manning is in isolation -- no independent observers.

You either support torture or you don't --

This is the military/MIC and Obama acting out their FEARS and WEAKNESS and FRUSTRATION!

And it is Bradley Manning who is showing us what they are really all about!!

[Ken_Fish]

78. Stopped at Mihop. Respect your ability to hold that view, but have no interest

in speaking with folks who hold that as fact.

Manning is a prisoner. He will be tried, convicted on a mountain of evidence including his confession and tons of computer logging, and will either be executed or die in a high security prison.

no offense, just dont see a rational point to discuss in that post.

[defendandprotect]

82. Manning is making clear the weakness, fears and frustrations of his abusers --

and it is those torturers and abusers who need to find a "moral compass" --

[coalition_unwilling]

94. You obviously support torture when it is done under color

of authority. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[Ken_Fish]

130. Obviously. I support torture and basic reading skills

there is NOTHING in that article that reads like he was tortured. Even if you define torture as being humiliated in public.

The ignore thing is interesting, so far its been ignore or you are a paid psyops operative. Guess critical thinking skills are a waning thing.

[Bunny]

141. You don't think forced nudity is torture?

Let's revisit Abu Ghraib, shall we? Were those 'detainees' humiliated when they were made to stand naked on top of a box with their arms outstretched, for hours on end? How about when they were dragged around by a leash, while naked, by that female soldier? How about when they were kept naked and smeared with feces? How about the naked human pyramids they were forced to perform? Do you see a common theme here - they were all kept NAKED? Don't you think that added to the humiliation? Don't you agree they were tortured?

Are you honestly equating Manning's forced nudity with that of some GIs seeing each other naked in the barracks bathroom?

[Ken_Fish]

142. Manning slept for 7 hours nude in a cell. He was not paraded around

with a dog collar on. Comparing to abu graib is colorful but Dachau would be even more so, right?

Abu graib is not relevant to a federal lockup with a guy who in all likelihood is on suicide watch.

No one seems to be asking WHY he was kept naked in his cell, just assuming it is to torture him.

And yea I am saying his nudity is like seeing someone in a gym, except he was locked in a cell, so the guards saw him.

You would think people were intentionally inflating the issue for some reason.

[Bunny]

144. Actually, I think you're intentionally de-flating the issue, for reasons of your own.

Good bye.

[Ken_Fish]

146. Guess we read different articles. (nt)

[Threedifferentones]

278. Why was he kept naked for for hours?

[Ken_Fish]

300. so he cant hang himself before trial. aiding the enemy

is a pretty disgraceful charge.

[defendandprotect]

270. Right -- the "Ignore" button still works -- !!

:)

[bvar22]

159. This was just some "fraternity pranks".

You are in good company.
Maybe Donnie Rumsfeld can join you for some laughs.

[Ken_Fish]

161. the failure to ask WHY is interesting? I mean why was he nude

did obama put a call in to holder and ask them to ruin mr mannings tuesday?

Or was he on suicide watch, considering he has an existing mood disorder.

Making the post about me and my company avoids the real question.

Why was he naked?

[sabrina 1]

298. And arch propagandist, Rush Limbaugh. Seems the

propaganda that torture is not torture, just some kids having fun, has spread over to the dem side of the aisle. There was a time when not a single Dem would have supported this in any way. I wish I knew what happened.

[elehhhhna]

224. Yeh, nothing cruel or unusual about being forced to stand around naked.

And that assumption of innocence until proven guilty is so last-millenium.

[Ken_Fish]

227. nope, here is some guy without a following.. lesser crimes , held in same

circumstances. a little google will show this is common.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

[tkmorris]

249. You seem to define critical thinking skills as...

You seem to define critical thinking skills as "agreeing with me". There's your first mistake, albeit a very common one.

[Ken_Fish]

256. No, supportable fact. Obama tortured manning ack ack

is silly. This practice has been used with other prisoners not as high profile.

Basic reasoning, why would someone who was just told they will be charged with a death penalty crime be stripped of their clothes?

A) The potus is torturing him.
B) He expressed suicidal thoughts or behavior..

hmm.

[cui bono]

96. Why stop it? Because it is torture. Manning is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

This is not how we are supposed to treat suspects. And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he was being held without charges for a long time while being treated this way. Is this how we're supposed to treat those who have not even been charged with a crime?

They are trying to break him and make him say that he did this with Assange's help. They want Assange. That is the goal.

[Ken_Fish]

127. He is charged with numerous counts, including charges that carry the death penalty

and if he suicides before trial I cant imagine the tinfoil hattery that would ensue. I believe those charges were recently upgraded, maybe that is related to his disposition.

Assange is not an American and not in the US, that makes him the domain of the CIA. He is not going to be tried here without a pretty high bar of evidence. Unless the world wide jewish conspiracy of news editors gets its way...

(last part sarcasm)

[cui bono]

151. He is now charged, but it is my understanding that he was held for some time without charges

and treated in the same manner during that time.

I believe that Assange is being extradited to Sweden so that he can then be extradited to the U.S. I heard on the radio the other day that there is a clause that would let Sweden extradite him to the U.S. "on loan" so to speak, before they try him in Sweden. If tptb can get Manning to crack and say that Assange helped him to obtain the material by giving him knowledge of how to do it or something like that, then they will put Assange on trial here.

I really don't see how you think it is okay to treat a human being this way. Let alone one who is presumed innocent.

[Ken_Fish]

152. He has been charged the entire time he has been held

they can't allow him to suicide before his trial. It is actually their responsibility to make sure he can not kill himself.

His charges were recently upgraded according to the google.

[cui bono]

252. Not what I have heard in radio interviews. Do you have a link? n/t

[Ken_Fish]

254. Yes.

It is a shame the news makes finding unfiltered truth so hard.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33963920/Charge-Sheet-Redacted-Manning

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33963588/Charge-Sheet-Pvt-Bradley-Manning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

(lots of good original sources in the wiki)

[cui bono]

309. So he was charged back in July 2010. I stand corrected, on that.

However, he has still been tortured while being held in custody awaiting trial and that is beyond unacceptable.

See this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=555341&mesg_id=560402

Obama said we would not torture, so he should have it stopped immediately. But he won't because he sides with the corporate powers that be and they want Assange silenced and see Manning as their ticket to incriminating Assange. You've heard of people confessing to murders they never committed due to "pressure" during interrogation? Well they are trying to break Manning. Why did the DOJ refer attorneys to BofA? The whole thing stinks and is extremely unAmerican.

And again, yes, what they have done to Manning is torture.

That's it for me on this. Thanks for the links to the charges.

[Ken_Fish]

311. So obama tortured him..

by denying him the tools to kill himself because he is charged with aiding the enemy. This guy is already taking ssri drugs and has a mental history. So I wonder why they are taking precautions.

If he kills himself can you imagine the tinfoil response?

Manning confessed before he was in custody.

[cui bono]

323. Okay, you've convinced me.

You are either a troll looking for a reaction, an avid Obama apologist or you have absolutely no ability to be logical.

[Ken_Fish]

324. Yes an obama apologist

fo real e yo... I have no logic..

Please feel free to post anything that resembles logic, that way I could actually respond. Being butthurt is not logic.

Manning cant hang himself before trial. Logic.

[msanthrope]

165. Manning was charged shortly after his arrest, in July of 2010. n/t

[markpkessinger]

271. He still has not bee tried and/or convicted, nor has he entered a guilty plea

Therefore, he is entitled to every presumption of innocence, irrespective of what he may have "confessed" to. Confessions are not always admissible as evidence; that is for a court martial to determine. Until then, both by U.S. law and the USMCJ, Private Manning is presumed innocent.

[Cid_B]

284. Guess what...

He still has to sit in his cell. If you take that logic to its full conclusion we should just let everyone wander around until the very moment they are declared guilty.

[markpkessinger]

287. No, that's not what I'm saying...

Consider the following, from the U.S. Code of Military Justice:

813. ART. 13 PUNISHMENT PROHIBITED BEFORE TRIAL

No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances required to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.

The military has gone out of its way to inflict punishment upon Private Manning, not merely to hold him for trial, as the military's own laws provide. Holding a person in solitary confinement in excess of seven months, repeatedly subjecting him to forced nudity, depriving him of sleep -- all of which have been inflicted on Private Manning -- is tantamount to torture. And there is no defense for it: none!

[blackspade]

106. Oh bullshit.

Why would he confess to a crime?
He is innocent until proven guilty.
You have no idea if he stole classified info any more than anyone else.
The boy has been in isolation for a year for fuck sake.
He has not, I repeat, not convicted of any crime.
It is not OK for him to be humiliated, stripped, tortured, or whatever under US law.

[Ken_Fish]

128. Because he is stupid. you can read it on boing boing. not sure of the link rules here

so if you google "manning chat logs lamo unredacted" you will find his commentary on his actions.

He will be stripped searched on a regular basis for the rest of his life in all probability.

[blackspade]

135. He's still not guilty

Until proven so.
You obviously have already convicted him.

The point is that you seem to want to avoid, is that he is being abused in a federal facility without even the pretext that he has been proven guilty of a crime. That being said, abuse is illegal whether he is guilty or not.

Frankly, I find your glee at the idea of him being 'stripped searched on a regular basis for the rest of his life' nauseating.

[Ken_Fish]

137. He is being detained in protective custody on death penalty charges.

he is subject to strip and cavity searches, just like every other federal inmate. There are lots of good documentaries on life in federal prison, none of them look like really fun places to be. Of course he gets a trial. I have not said he was convicted, only he confessed online. Which makes it easier for him to be convicted.

He is still on active duty and can be detained in isolation. He can appeal to a federal judge.

[blackspade]

143. Protective custody...

is an interesting euphemism for 'detained for abuse'.
He has been in 'protective custody' for over a year. The DP charges just came in the last few days.
So how are you justifying his abuse over the last year?

Your just dodging the point anyway.
A person who is not guilty of a crime has been held in abusive conditions without a trial for over a year.
What makes his case so special that makes it OK for our government to do this? Nothing.
Murderers like McVey were treated better than this young man.

[Ken_Fish]

145. I would bet others later convicted of espionage

were held in similar conditions. They are not going to give him a cell phone and PC to update his twitter feed. What abuse, did I miss some news event? He is active duty and has always been held on serious felony charges.

At no time has he been denied access to a judge and has the same rights (generally under ucmj) as the rest of us.

A person detained for trial can be kept in isolation, completely legal and mr manning is probably not the first person to be held in this manner.

There is nothing to dodge, the guy is responsible for the largest breach in history, he will not be staying at the 4 seasons.

McVeigh was executed in a federal prison, mr manning could very well face the same fate.

[blackspade]

167. Your ducking and weaving is getting tiresome

Your cell cell phone and PC comment is a total strawman. And it has not been proved in a court of law that he did anything regardless of what you say.
We are talking about here abuse, plain and simple. If you don't see that you are either just being contrary or blindingly ignorant.
whichever it is I see no reason to continue to discuss prisoner abuse and torture with you.

[Ken_Fish]

186. Sorry, there is NO LAW that defines solitary

confinement or suicide watch as torture. I find it insulting to people who have actually been tortured to call this torture.

There is evidence to support an indictment, that is done. That supports his detention, and the state is responsible for his well being while jailed. If he hangs himself or stuffs his socks down his throat it is their fault.

What is abusive about being naked in a jail cell in solitary? Pretty sure they cant come out and say he was suicidal, that would be a privacy issue. He could sue.

[blackspade]

197. You can be insulted all you want but,

Your continued defense of abuse/torture is telling.
I call it abuse that he is confined to a cell for 23 hours a day with nothing to distract him as reported.
He has no sheets, pillow, toilet seat, and no contact with the outside world.
Now they are taking his clothes and making him stand naked. are you kidding?
That is humiliating and degrading, both of which are considered torture under international law.
Just because they are not smashing his toes with a hammer doesn't give them a free pass.
Also, his lawyers have stated that he is not suicidal and that his conditions are abusive.

You can say that there is evidence for an indictment all you want, but there hasn't been one yet, just charges.
The charges, as you say, may support detention, but they do not justify his abuse while custody.
The agents of the state are responsible for his well being, I agree, but thier actions are contrary to their obligations.

Feel free to respond, but I'm done discussing your support of abuse and torture of an American citizen.

[Ken_Fish]

198. Feelings are not laws. His lawyer is not responsible for his life

the facility is. People kill themselves in custody. In this case that would be very bad. And the conspiracy morons would NEVER let it drop.

They have the legal rights to deny him the methods to kill himself. You know after his charges were recently upgraded to those that carry a death penalty...

Example..
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/sailor-accused-of-murdering-fellow-seaman-commits-suicide-in-custody.html

[sabrina 1]

295. Amazing that you would even ask this question:

What is abusive about being naked in a jail cell in solitary?

So sad to see that here on this board. When the Abu Ghraib photos were released and experts on torture explained the use of 'stripping and humiliating' people as a means of torture, people like Rush Limbaugh laughed.

But not a single democrat I knew at that time even tried to defend it. What happened? Is it because now there is a Democrat in charge of these abuses?

Here is Common Art. 3 of the Geneva Conventions. I say let's put these war criminals on trial and let the courts decide what is and what is not torture and/or abuse.

Common Article III:
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

You don't get to decide what is abuse or not. First, the victim gets to do that and his attorney, which has already been established. That it violates the Geneva Conventions should result and I hope it does, in charges against those sick individuals who are responsible. Clearly the prolonged abuses against human beings in this country have conditioned many Americans to simply accept them, as happens to all abused people after a while.

Fortunately there are enough people strong enough to resist that kind of conditioning and even though it will take time, I feel confident that these abuses will be eventually be stopped and those sick criminals who perpetrate the crimes, will be held accountable.

It took decades to get that kind of accountability in countries in Latin America, but now finally, it is being done. Same thing will happen here.

[Ken_Fish]

301. That is a really long post. the reality is pretty short

manning is not the first person held in detention without clothes to prevent a suicide before trial. He is not a POW so you can shit can the geneva convention stuff. It applies to a crack dealer in the same way it applies to manning.

Manning really made an adult choice. So i will not disrespect that by pissing on him. He will stand trial and be sentenced like a man for his call. That is pretty much fair.

[sabrina 1]

314. I didn't think you would be able to absorb more than a few

sentences, but others can, thankfully.

Manning is a hero. And like Daniel Ellsberg will be exhonerated. His trial will reveal the massive war crimes he tried to stop finally and the world will be watching and cheering him on, in fact the world is watching.

He is universally regarded as a hero for the courage he displayed. It doesn't matter what a few reactionary, rightwing morons in this country think. We are fast losing any remnant of respect we once had in the world. I hope also that the trial will result in some arrests of the real criminals. It's way past time to put those criminals away.

I hope this doesn't tax your brain too much ~ I tried to keep it short so you could handle it.

I can understand now though, why you don't know much about the law and war crimes and the difference between a criminal and hero.

Reading is essential!

[Ken_Fish]

316. Words in bulk do not make a smart POV. they equate to time.

bottom line manning is charged with aiding the enemy. A death penalty charge.. Your oped on him being a hero, a christ figure etc are interesting but will not really relevant to his reality.

He is regarded by most in the us as a criminal and will die in prison very soon or a very long time from now.

He spent his last day a free man several years ago. That IS FACT.

I know plenty, my view will square with reality, wanna bet on it?

[sabrina 1]

320. Charges by war criminals do not mean anything.

The War in Iraq is a War Crime. Manning refused to commit war crimes. Those charging him are the criminals and everyone who matters, knows that.

The U.S. military has become despised around the world, as can be seen now when even people fighting for their lives against brutal dictators, are demanding that the U.S. military stay out of their countries. No one wants their 'help' because they know what that means. They would, they say, from Egypt to Bahrain to Libya to Tunisia and elsewhere, rather die than have the U.S. military in their countries.

Manning is regarded as a hero by a vast majority of people around the world, most of whom KNOW what he tried to do.

I know it's hard for you to accept, but you are very much in the minority. You are part of a small and ever diminishing group still refusing to acknowledge the crimes committed agains millions of people. The crimes Manning had the courage to try to stop.

Sorry to burst your bubble. They could kill him, and it would only make him more of a hero. And of course, you are right, the current U.S government IS capable of killing him. That's what we seem to do best now, kill people. We all know that, including him.

But if they do, it will only make them even more despised than they are already.

[Ken_Fish]

322. Manning is nothing in egypt, tunisia,

or any other nation working towards freedom. can you source any of these claims?

[markpkessinger]

291. What the U.S. Code of Military Justice says about pre-trial detention

813. ART. 13 PUNISHMENT PROHIBITED BEFORE TRIAL

No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances required to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.

For an excellent discussion of this, see the following article on TalkLeft's site: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2010/12/16/04044/684

[sabrina 1]

297. No, he won't, because thankfully there are people of principle

who will not stop until this abuse stops and those responsible held accountable. It may take time, but it WILL happen.

People said about Daniel Ellsberg also. Today he is a hero, as is Manning.

I have read the chat logs. What is your point? Have read the expose on what exactly happened regarding those logs? You don't seem to be very informed about this whole story.

Manning did his duty. The problem is that so few have the courage to do what he did, even if they want to, that he is on his own, for now.

One day more soldiers WILL have the guts to spill the beans on the war crimes they have witnessed. It happened in Vietnam, it will happen again and Manning will be respected for trying to stop the crimes against humanity he witnessed and reported on.

[Ken_Fish]

302. I am sorry to be the one to introduce reality

manning will either die in a high security prison or be executed in one. Manning is charged with crimes that carry the death penalty. Unlike the states a federal death penalty does not take 15 years, it takes 4.


Support or not support his cause, the legal position is clear.

[sabrina 1]

317. Well, I hate to ruin your fun, but people like you made the same

predictions about Daniel Ellsberg which he often reminds us of.

But reality trumped their sadistic hopes and dreams and today the man is widely viewed as a true patriot and hero. I like to think they are still crying in their uber-patriotic soup bowls each time they see him still standing up for what is right.

He's a huge supporter of Manning btw. That is how you can judge whether you are on the wrong side of an issue, as you are, by the people who are on your team. And I am proud of the many, many highly respected people who have stood up for Manning. He can be too.

Aaaand, he is gathering more and more support each day. They more they try to harm him, the more they enhance his image, and destroy their own. So stupid of them but in a way, they are doing him a favor. Every DECENT person on the planet is now supporting him.

[Ken_Fish]

321. aiding the enemy

is a very serious charge. ellisberg was an officer and connected, manning not so much. times have changed.

the people supporting manning are a minority, not represented in the current government. while he is owed a fair trial his life is over at this point.

it will be expended in a federal prison. how long he lives behind bars is the only real variable.

[markpkessinger]

268. Whether he has "confessed" or not, he is still entitled to due process

It doesn't matter what he "confessed" to. His plea was "not guilty," and he is therefore entitled to that presumption until such time as a court martial finds him guilty/not guilty of the charges. Civics 101, my friend.

[Ken_Fish]

303. of course he is. the court will presume him innocent

however the evidence will be pretty compelling. Along with his own words I would expect to see plenty of computer logs with his name all over them.

Bottom line he will be spending his natural life in federal lockup. The only question is how long that life lasts.

thats my bet.

[cui bono]

92. Interesting to see? And you think all this is just about one stripping of clothes?

Have you heard or read anything about what solitary confinement of this nature does to someone? It is generally agreed upon by rational people that it is torture. It causes people to go insane. Do some research and maybe you will see that you should be taking this seriously and not some little social experiment that is "interesting to see" if someone commits suicide or not.

How callous.

[Ken_Fish]

129. I wonder how many prisoners are in solitary right now? over 50,000

I would bet. Are they all being tortured or just those whose activities are heroic to some?

[cui bono]

150. They may alll be being tortured. At a certain point, after a time, solitary confinement

will drive people insane. Is that not torture to you?

Add to that that it's almost never simply solitary confinement. Usually they are subjected to constant television noise, or lights on all the time, no sheets and blankets, etc...

[Ken_Fish]

155. no. being kept in solitary after a conviction or prior to to prevent suicide

is not torture. Prison is not fun, however criminal acts have consequence. Given the lack of reason why he was stripped I would BET he was a suicide risk.

I would assume mr mannings existing mood disorder that is being treated is the reason for his problems and suicide watch.

[cui bono]

251. Yes, it is torture. n/t

[Ignis]

286. "Prison is not fun, however criminal acts have consequence."

I invite you to shrug off the mental shackles of authoritarianism and expand your mind:

www.innocenceproject.org

[Ken_Fish]

304. Pretty sure he confessed. So the only question is how long he will serve

behind bars. Will his life end from old age or lethal injection. The charges are amazing. Aiding the enemy in war time.

[Ignis]

336. Be careful you don't salivate overmuch on the keyboard.

I'd hate to have your incessant death and torture fantasies at all impeded.

[defendandprotect]

63. Do Geneva Accords allow "stripping" -- "standing naked for 7 hours" ...

you have an odd sense of what inhumane treatment might be --

Yes, Bradley Manning has been tortured and it shows us the broken fabric

of our government/democracy -- the corruption of our government and military.

And, in a major way -- the very weakness of it vs Manning.

They can't get what they want so they will destroy him.

[Ken_Fish]

69. He is on SSRI meds for what reason? I assume

he may have a mood disorder. Being told you are going to be executed or die in prison probably does not help this. Knowing nothing of the circumstance (just like you) if I had to guess I would put my money there.

They dont need to get at him, he confessed, in public. Along with tons of computer evidence what else do they need?

EDIT: he is also not subject to geneva, he is not a POW. I have a brother in the army, pretty sure on active duty that is a legal order. Stand around naked..

[defendandprotect]

76. How many prisoners in the GULAGS had psychological problems ... bye-- !!

Thanks, anyway -- but would prefer not to get any closer to your views!!

[Ken_Fish]

79. allrighty. we agree, no intrest in mihop or gulag nazi comparisons. cheers then(nt)

[defendandprotect]

80. I have every interest in every issue -- just not your opinions ...

Thanks, anyway --

[StarsInHerHair]

90. same here, IGNORED that guy........

nt

[TorchTheWitch]

105. He was NOT forced to stand naked for 7 hours!

The thread title is a blatant falsehood and not even the article's actual title. Read the first paragraph the OP posted. He was forced to strip naked, was left in his cell naked for seven hours while he presumably slept, and was only forced to stand naked at the front of his cell AFTER the seven hours had passed when the wake up call sounded and only for a few minutes while detainees were counted. He was then ordered to sit on his bed and after about 10 minutes was given his clothes back.

[msanthrope]

139. He wasn't standing naked for 7 hours. read the article. n/t

[msanthrope]

140. He wasn't standing naked for 7 hours. read the article. n/t

[tekisui]

192. And stand for 7 hours. Yes. It serves no purpose but to degrade

and humiliate.

[Ken_Fish]

195. Here is a reason..

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/sailor-accused-of-murdering-fellow-seaman-commits-suicide-in-custody.html

[tekisui]

199. Bullshit. They can watch him, as they were, without him standing

or being naked. No excuse for this type of punishment. And it is punishment.

[Ken_Fish]

200. Brig commander said it was not..Pretty sure they cant

divulge his medical info. But they are responsible for him making it to court alive. I believe he was recently told he will be facing charges that carry the death penalty.

That may have a bearing on this.

[EFerrari]

207. The update reports explicitly that this isn't a result of a medical consultation. n/t

[Ken_Fish]

208. With the staff, and EXPLICITLY states not punative. Your link not mine(nt)

[EFerrari]

The Pentagon has lied both about using forced nudity AND

about Manning's detention so their word on their intentions is worth cr@p. But they did confirm no doctor was involved. It's amazing they didn't lie about that, too.

[Ken_Fish]

212. I would bet all of mannings life since arrest is on tape

and that they are keeping careful records so not to impact his prosecution.

[EFerrari]

225. Taping prisoners in order to humiliate them is also illegal. n/t

[Ken_Fish]

228. Nope. he can be taped just like OJ and MJ were.

that way when abuse is claimed the tape is there. Common practice. Are you making this stuff up? Another us citizen detained naked.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

[EFerrari]

237. No, I'm not making things up. Common Article 3 of Geneva

explicitly says you cannot photograph prisoners to humiliate them or to rob them of their dignity, for one thing.

Someone who knows the UCMJ better than I do, which is not at all, can probably find a similar passage there.

[Ken_Fish]

239. That is for publication. Like putting prisoners on TV, not

taping prisoners incarcerated, this is common in the US and Canada.

[Name removed]

247. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TorchTheWitch]

258. he was NOT forced to stand for 7 hours!

Does nobody here fucking READ anymore??? The OP title is a blatant falsehood. He spent 7 hours naked in his cell presumably sleeping. He was only made to stand AFTER seven hours when called to attention at the morning wake up call and only for a few minutes while detainees were counted. It's all RIGHT THERE in the OP spelled out in excruciating detail.

[defendandprotect]

272. Oh, geez .... that makes it sooooo much better -- !!! What could we all have been worrying about ??

:eyes:

[Travelman]

277. Perhaps people could worry about dealing with actual facts

instead of made-up BS in the OP title.

He's in prison. He's on suicide watch. The state has a specific duty to not let him kill himself. People can (and do) hang themselves with their clothes in prison. The way to prevent that from happening is to take their clothes away from them. This is not new, it's not unusual, and it's not torture. It's called keeping him from killing himself before his trial.

No one said prison was supposed to be fun, whether it's pre-trial confinement or serving one's sentence. Every prisoner in the federal system (at the very least) is routinely strip-searched and has a body cavity search. That's the way life is in prison. If you don't want to go through that, then consider not engaging in massive acts of espionoge followed by a lengthy and detailed confession that you post on the internet.

[defendandprotect]

282. The fact is he's had his clothing taken from him -- been nude in his cell -- for two days now ....

if that doesn't bother you, let me know 'cause I'd be happy to put you on ignore!

[TorchTheWitch]

299. He was given back his clothes in the morning

As it CLEARLY says right there in the OP. I guess you STILL haven't bothered to read even the first two paragraphs of the OP. He slept naked and was given his clothes back 10 minutes after roll call the next morning which doesn't even add up to 24 hours much less two days. Big fucking deal.

The only TRUE thing in this story to take issue with is his having to stand at attention naked for a few minutes. Well, guess what? It's hardly anything every soldier in the army hasn't had to deal with at one time or another. When called to attention you have to stop WHATEVER you're doing and stand to attention. If that means you're bare assed naked, have piss dribbling off your wang from pissing on a bush, are covered with soap in the shower, have bird shit melting down your face, or whatever, TOUGH. That's how military life IS and there isn't one person here that never knew that. There isn't one person here that never knew that deliberate humiliation and harsh treatment is SOP for a grunt particularly in basic training and having to stand at attention naked for a few minutes is NOTHING compared to a host of other SOP treatment, like being made to stand at attention in the hot sun till you passed out, or made to exercise till you puked, or had someone screaming in your face an inch from your nose what a maggot you are and all other derogatory terms they can come up with to see if you can take it, and on and on and on.

Just when are we going to stop this pretense that nobody had any idea that military life in GENERAL is deliberately harsh, humiliating, and even cruel by the standards of the average citizen and ALWAYS has been? Having to stand at a attention for a few minutes while naked is a damned walk in the park compared to other SOP treatment of every soldier and hardly anything that Manning hadn't endured before LONG before he ever got to prison and probably from his first day of basic.

[Travelman]

338. No, that is not the fact at all.

The actual fact is that his clothes were taken from him overnight so that he couldn't hang himself with them. Then they were given back to him in the morning.

[sabrina 1]

279. Well, that makes me feel so much better!

Humiliation of detainees is against the Geneva Conventions. What they are doing is illegal.

Can you explain WHY a person who is still innocent of any crime, and if he was guilty, is being treated in this despicable, third world dictatorship fashion and why Americans who are forever talking about what a great country this is, are not outraged over it?

The man is a hero. He followed all procedures a soldier is required to follow when he saw a war crime being committed and was asked to facilitate it. He reported it. He was ignored, then he used the only other means available to him to bring attention to that wrong-doing.

Is this the kind of country we want? Americans need to ask themselves that question before it is too late, if it isn't already.

[Travelman]

283. He was not "humiliated." That's just absurd.

EVERY prisoner gets strip-searched. That's part of what being in prison entails. They did not parade him around, they did not poke or prod or anything else. They told him to take off his clothes so that he wouldn't hang himself. Happens all over the place in prisons and jails all over the country. Canada does the same thing. This is not new. This is not unusual. This is what happens when you get sent to prison. Prison is not day camp. It's not fun. It is unpleasant, and you have to do things like be subject to strip searches and checks to see if you're shoved anything up your ass to sneak it into the cell block.

[sabrina 1]

293. Your post makes me ill.

Because it shows how conditioned Americans are to the abuse leveled at them by their own government. Americans are like abused spouses. They don't know anything else and simply assume that what they are experiencing is normal. Until there is an intervention, something this country needs badly.

There ARE countries where people in detention are treated humanely. It can be done. But I can see that the abuse has gone on for so long here that it has become totally acceptable. We have a long way to go before we become a civilized nation, that is obvious.

Humiliating detainees is against the Geneva Conventions.

Common Article III:
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavor to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

I am happy to say that I still have not become conditioned to this kind of sick abuse. What Manning is being subjected to is illegal.

[Travelman]

339. Was he captured on the field of battle?

No?

Well, then, I'm terribly sorry but the Geneva Conventions do not apply here. That is a red herring.



I would like for you to name a single prison system on this planet that does not do strip-serarches of their prisoners. I'll be waiting.

[Name removed]

273. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rincewind]

12. So?

[The abyss]

13. Manning is a victim of much bigger machine. Much as we all attract and want our own basic desires

Wikileaks and Assange, in my opinion, are a controlled intelligence asset that either makes nonsense up out of whole cloth, or sells bits and pieces of true info poisoned with mis-direction.

Manning was baited and sold on doing the "right thing" because he was someone that actually had some low level access to transmissions and truly possessed a conscience.

Unfortunately, he bit into a machine trolling for a victim. A machine run by the lowest psychopaths on this planet.

[Ken_Fish]

49. So Wiki is a honeypot?(nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

232. That sounds like a loopy conspiracy theory to me.

Doesn't pass the smell test.

[sabrina 1]

296. That is a conspiracy theory, used to try to prevent people

from exposing crimes against humanity. And it has been completely debunked. Wikileaks has never in its history revealed the ID of any of its sources, nor did they reveal Manning's. We know how Manning was entrapped, and it was not by Wikileaks. You really should be careful not to help those with a vested interest in spreading that false theory around.

[Canuckistanian]

14. What is this, fucking Abu Ghraib West?

Did they get fucking Lynndie Englund to point at his genitals, too?

WTF is happening in America?

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. Why didn't they do this to Oliver North?

[No Elephants]

36. At least Nancy Reagan killed his Senate hopes.

[Hippo_Tron]

337. Or Scooter Libby and Dick Armitage for that matter

Rank definitely has its privileges.

[The Flaming Red Head]

17. Bless his heart

He is the same age as my son and basically still a kid. What do they hope to accomplish by torturing him.

[kpete]

18. WOW - NYT paying attention?!?

Soldier in Leaks Case Jailed in Cell Naked, Lawyer Says
By CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: March 3, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/us/04manning.html

[bertman]

19. This is shameful and casts a long, ugly shadow on our military. The service members who

serve us honorably should be outraged that the commanders who are allowing this have not been arrested and tried for violating regulations about how prisoners are treated.

The fact that this has been happening and has been known about BUT HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO CONTINUE is a damning indictment of the Obama administration.

We have descended to the level of tin-horn dictatorships that have no respect for anything but intimidation and force.

Thanks to Loki for the DOD information.

[TheMadMonk]

30. Should be, but they won't be. "Espirit de Corps" will prevail.

He broke ranks. His arse is toast no matter his reason, because he dropped his mates in the poo.

Same thing makes it extremely rough on service members raped by other service members.

[No Elephants]

37. Please remind me which of his mates he dropped into which poo and how.

Please be very specific.

"Same thing makes it extremely rough on service members raped by other service members."


Are you referring to the U.S. Armed Forces? If so, surely you forgot the sarcasm symbol.

[MasonJar]

20. Who allows this? Where is Obama? He's the Commander in Chief. Oh, that's right

he;s down in Florida on an anti-teacher fling with Jeb Bush. OH, well. And to think we could have had that Moderate Hillary Clinton instead of this really liberal thinker Barack Obama.

[defendandprotect]

50. We also have a "Contact" for Obama ... here ...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

and this for the Defense Dept --

https://kb.defense.gov/app/ask

PLUS -- the name of his lawyer in this -- David Coombs --

Maybe if we all sent CARDS or post cards to Bradley Manning at Quantico?

We need to find some way to help because otherwise they will destroy him.

And some soldiers are following orders to torture him and watching this happen!!

[lovuian]

21. this is torture and totally shows our brutality

this is so WRONG!!! He has not been TRIED!!!

[lovuian]

23. OBAMA you are part of this ...there is NO EXCUSE

he has lost every bit of respect I had

I include Gates in this

[Dawson Leery]

22. And this is better than the way Soviets treated dissidents how?

:shrug:

[Butch350]

24. Then don't do anything to end up in jail.

[shanti]

35. forget your sarcasm thingy?

:(

[texastoast]

41. Hem hem

Or be accused, I suppose?

[TBF]

43. Innocent until proven guilty?

Oh that's right - we selectively choose what we remember from the constitution.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

136. If its innocent until proven guilty...maybe we should have some proof behind this 'torture' claim?

I mean, people are very quick to declare that actual torture has been done to him by Obama.

[TBF]

154. That's a good point -

I do think that we have to assume innocence unless we see evidence otherwise - from both sides.

[defendandprotect]

274. Isolation is TORTURE .... also see Stockholm Studies --

Miltiary still has laws on torture --

despite Rumsfeld and other torturing influences --

[Hissyspit]

98. Be sure and email that to Daniel Ellsberg.

[defendandprotect]

276. +1000% ---

The Founders would also be interested!!

[ieoeja]

147. 5 of the 10 Bill of Rights are for people suspected, accused or convincted of crimes.

So if you are one of those, "you give up your rights when you commit a crime," people, you are calling for the repeal of 50% of our Bill of Rights.

[Ignis]

288. So you've never heard of the Innocence Project?

www.innocenceproject.org

:dunce:

[emilyg]

25. Send this to the White House.

[No Elephants]

38. In hopes of accomplishing what?

[emilyg]

60. He's the Commander-in-Chief. Should

know hoiw this upsets some of us.

[BlueIris]

194. WH will continue to ignore it as they ignore everything else.

Everything that might suggest the CiC is required to get his hands dirty every once in a while that is.

[No Elephants]

26. I guess we are not looking only forward with Manning, only with Bushco.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Bybee, Gonzo, et al.

Manning.

Yes, I see.

On edit:

"The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment is an international human rights instrument, under the review of the United Nations, that aims to prevent torture around the world."


<snip>

Definition of torture
Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

– Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1

Actions which fall short of torture may still constitute cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under Article 16.

Ban on torture and cruel and degrading treatment
Article 2 of the convention prohibits torture, and requires parties to take effective measures to prevent it in any territory under its jurisdiction. This prohibition is absolute and non-derogable. "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever"<5> may be invoked to justify torture, including war, threat of war, internal political instability, public emergency, terrorist acts, violent crime, or any form of armed conflict.<6> Torture cannot be justified as a means to protect public safety or prevent emergencies.<6> Neither can it be justified by orders from superior officers or public officials.<7> The prohibition on torture applies to all territories under a party's effective jurisdiction, and protects all people under its effective control, regardless of citizenship or how that control is exercised.<6> Since the Conventions entry into force, this absolute prohibition has become accepted as a principle of customary international law.<6>

Because it is often difficult to distinguish between cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and torture, the Committee regards Article 16's prohibition of such treatment as similarly absolute and non-derogable.<6>

The other articles of part I lay out specific obligations intended to implement this absolute prohibition by preventing, investigating and punishing acts of torture.<6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_Against_Torture
Ban on refoulement
Article 3 prohibits parties from returning, extraditing or refouling any person to a state "where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture".<8> The Committee against Torture has held that this danger must be assessed not just for the initial receiving state, but also to states to which the person may be subsequently expelled, returned or extradited.<9>"

[defendandprotect]

52. Great point -- the simplistic Obama instructions for ignoring Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld torture --

and not quite stopping it!!

Basically, I think this shows us how WEAK certain parts of our military and civilian

leadership are that they are this frightened of Manning -- and WikiLeaks -- and truth!!

Corrupt and weak -- !!

[madmax]

28. Rummy, Bush, Cheney take us into 2 illegal wars by

lies - nothing happens.

For the sake of arguement Manning exposes the lies and he faces the death penalty.

What's wrong with this picture.

I know it's sketchy but, work with me ;)

[Citizen Worker]

32. And here I thought GW left office in January 2009. It seems he's still around and making the

decisions. Or, is it Cheney?

[defendandprotect]

66. +1

[Dystopian]

34. KandR

This brought me to tears.
They won't stop until they break him.

peace~

[totodeinhere]

39. This story infuriates me. It reminds me of something that would happen during

the Bush administration. I have emailed my Senator Harry Reid to complain about it.

[blackspade]

42. This is an obscenity.

Either charge and try the man or let him go.
I find it fascinating that they have him locked up without charges and we have banksters and politicians who have committed easily provable crimes walking free.

Our DOJ is corrupt to the core.

[TBF]

45. It's not just the DOJ -

remember who they work for.

[msanthrope]

84. Dude, he's been charged. In July, and with additional charges yesterday. Keep up. n/t

[blackspade]

108. OK, Dude, so he has been charged.

So what?
There are no indictments and he has not been tried much less proven guilty.
So currently, an innocent man is being tortured during the watch of a Democratic administration.
Sorry, I'm not cool with that.

[I Have A Dream]

44. What have we become as a country? Seriously.

Monsters... and I'm absolutely, utterly ashamed because of this.

:(

[defendandprotect]

46. Obviously, they haven't gotten what they want yet -- but they'll keep at it -- !!

This is really frightening because once again we see that whomever the guards are

they are cooperating in "torturing" a prisoner -- clearly they haven't been instructed

otherwise.

[truthisfreedom]

48. It's obvious what they're doing with this. They want to put the fear into everyone who might

consider spilling military secrets. They're scared.

[rhett o rick]

55. Some among us will say that Pres Obama is not torturing Manning.

If you support the torture of Bradley Manning or deny that it is happening, you must side with the oligarch and are our enemy.

[Ken_Fish]

56. Let em get this straight. If I dont think stripping a guy in lockup who may be a suicide

is not torture (real torture, electricity on balls, finger breaking torture) I am an enemy. He is naked (same way he was born) and probably unhappy about it. I would bet most people in federal prison do not like being strip searched or isolated 23 hours a day.

Can they tell us he threatened to suicide? Doubt it.

This guy manning is going to die in a federal lockup. Sooner (mcveigh) or later (like Aldridge Ames).

He is innocent until proven guilty, but he confessed online and admitted his actions. So he should be ok with the idea of living out life in a prison for committing 250,000 felonies.

[EFerrari]

114. Prisoner abuse and humiliation is illegal in this country. n/t

[Ken_Fish]

134. He took a 7 hour nap naked is my understanding of the article.

he was not paraded in a dog collar. I still do not understand why no one is asking WHY his clothes were taken..

I mean people are just filling that blank in...

[EFerrari]

178. It's also a violation of the Geneva Convention .on the treatment of prisoners

and the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

[Ken_Fish]

190. He is not a POW, he is an army private on active duty.

taking steps to remove means for him to suicide is not torture. It sounds puffy but is just not supportable in fact.

[EFerrari]

203. Right. He is being treated WORSE than a prisoner of war.

[Bragi]

122. Might you be related to Pavulon?

Your assertive and aggressive writing style, even when facts are unclear, is much like Pavulon, as is your propensity for confidently predicting future events. Or might you have been trained by the same instructors in social media intervention tactics?

Just wondering.

[Ken_Fish]

133. Trained in social media intervention.. At the school of the americas? Really

no logic, nothing? Again no one asks WHY was this person stripped.

Straight to Obama is torturing him.

I post short because half of them are from an iphone or ipad.

Edit: why the reference to a torture drug. Are you saying this is some jack bauer conspiracy, they doped him up?

[Union Scribe]

166. Was that the one with the blood lust for Manning and Assange?

The traitors will get theirs, all that shit?

[liberation]

182. Yup.

He was a hoot, you could tell he used to type with one hand when he fantasized about Manning and Wikileaks getting theirs. This new shift is more creative.

[sabrina 1]

342. Definitely sounded very familiar.

I felt like we had met before also ~ :-)

[msanthrope]

70. Was he in front of his cell for 7 hours? Or is this a misleading OP?

Was he made to stand in front of his cell for 7 hours, naked, as the OP title suggests?? Or not?

[TorchTheWitch]

262. it's clear as can be that he spent that 7 hours asleep in his bunk

not standing at attention at the front of his cell. It's spelled out in the article and in the OP as clearly as can be in excruciating detail that he was only made to stand at attention at the front of his cell for a few minutes during the morning count after the wake up call.

The OP title is a blatant falsehood and the thread should have been closed when it was in LBN instead of moved over here where even more people won't read anything else than the false title.

[Monk06]

72. This is the kind of treatment you'ld expect in a North Vietnamese prison camp.

Magua has become that which twisted him.

[Ken_Fish]

77. They used electrical shock, broke bones, starved people, and otherwise

employed real torture and inflicted death and permanent physical damage. Making a prisoner strip naked does not torture make. I had to wait naked in a hospital exam room once, for 30 minutes, maybe an hour. I did not feel tortured. It may be unpleasant but that is how prison will work for him.

[felix_numinous]

73. Torture is a form of communication

sending a message of what the powers that be do not tolerate, it draws a line. It has nothing to do with honor, or justice. He is being made example of, like the Guantanamo prisoners and all the other innocent people in jail.

Too much power causes psychosis, crazy people with too much power and they have to be stopped.

[defendandprotect]

280. Agree .... and imagine what's going on in all of our prisons now with rw in charges!!

Many prisoners have been saying that they are being tortured --

Not protecting prisoners from rape, sexual assault is also torture, imo --


:)

[annm4peace]

83. unless the Democrats do something soon to have Manning released

they are going to lose a lot more votes. I am again sending my Senators and Rep who are all Democrats an email and call for Mannings immediate release.

So far they have been either been silent or called for his prosecution.

Manning is being tortured. They are allowing the Marines to torture an soldier. Unbelievable.

[Ken_Fish]

85. I would argue the point about votes. No one in any statistically relevant block

supports manning. The rest is kinda subjective, depending on how you use "torture" but manning is going to get no support from anyone who wants to be reelected.

[Bragi]

123. "Statistically relevant block?"

I love it when the mouthpieces for depraved behaviour seek justification for their actions by pointing to debased public opinion that they have spent zillions to create using standard psyops techniques.

Keep on fishin', ken. I for one think your musings are certainly worth following...

[Ken_Fish]

124. So thats the meme. "mouthpieces", I'm a math teacher

at a private university. Although I would like to earn more I doubt it pays big dollars to post mainstream comments on a thread like this.

Manning admitted his actions, so now he will spend his life in prison. Not terrible complex course of events.

Personally I find it pretty fucking lazy to use that technique to dismiss someone rather than actually post a real argument or logical position.

Here let me show you how to do that:

"Although not a popular position Mannings act of self sacrifice was a trade he made to allow us all to see how the world works. While crimes were committed there has yet to be demonstrated physical harm from his actions. Manning deserves to be treated like every other prisoner and should be hospitalized if he is suffering a mental breakdown." etc.

See not that hard, only slightly harder than classifying me a psyops whatever.

[SnakeEyes]

86. I doubt any Sen or Rep

is going to support the release of anyone who up on the charges that Manning is accused of.

[defendandprotect]

281. Agree ----

When we consider right wing influences over our Democrats, we might

consider this ...

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

[myrna minx]

87. K&R -unacceptable and evil.

[wial]

88. It means a true American patriot

must be an enemy of the American military industrial congressional complex. Which was true before this too.

[coalition_unwilling]

89. Torture is as American as cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown) - n/t

[Keith Bee]

91. Thank God we beat the Soviets, huh?

:argh:

[Amonester]

95. OMG

Which country is this? The sultanate of oman???

[cstanleytech]

97. OMG..this is an outrage....oh wait I forgot that

I lack more data to decide if its an outrage and I can not say for certain why they would do this if the story is even true.


Now see guys (and gals) this is a case imo atleast of there not being enough information yet to riled up to much just yet until we find out a few very important facts such as who ordered it, who knew about it and why was it done, until then tossing words like "fascism" or blaming Obama is premature and some of you doing so right now might well want to keep that in mind.
After all lets leave the nutty stuff to people like Beck, Palin, Newt and Cavuto, k?

[Bluebear]

99. 'blaming Obama is premature' - oh of course. nt

[cstanleytech]

101. You seem to have doubts, care to share what facts have

caused you to have them? I'm willing to listen.

[EFerrari]

116. Confirmed.

First Lt. Brian Villiard, a Marine spokesman, said a brig duty supervisor had ordered Private Manning’s clothing taken from him. He said that the step was “not punitive” and that it was in accordance with brig rules, but he said that he was not allowed to say more.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/us/04manning.html?_r=2

[Ken_Fish]

131. Could he say manning was a suicide risk after being told he would be facing

death penalty charges? I am pretty sure he cant say that.

[cstanleytech]

149. Ken, its possible sure but the fact is no one here really has

enough facts they just have opinions so far based upon the scant information in an article and its premature to go around hurling accusations until an investigation is done (and there should be one conducted imo) on why this was done and who ordered it.

[Ken_Fish]

153. The blame obama thing is pretty strange.

i can see an argument both for and against what manning did, an argument for or against solitary but none really involve the Pres.

It is just really weird.

[liberation]

170. The president of a democracy being the commander in chief of the armed forces, ridiculous!

What will they think of next, right?

The whole concept of a democratic nation of laws must be so "weird" to some people...

[Ken_Fish]

185. Recently taped phone call from the POTUS to DOJ

"hey eric, whats up" O "not much man, just killin time over here at DOJ, bored to death""you get your brackets done O?""Yep I've got <REDACTED> over <REDACTED> in the finals."O

"damn, thats bold""whats up you killing time too?"Eric H. "yep, i just have so much free time these days" " hey you remember that manning guy"O "yea, that guy we have dead to rights, he confessed and is allover the secure networks with his id" Eric "yeah, him. Can you put a call in and have them make him get naked?" O

"Sure man, that would be funny, no reason not to jeopardize our case with a stunt, it sill be hilarious" Holder...

end sarc..

Seriously he is charged with death penalty crimes and can be held in protective custody until he is tried in a court of law. He can not be allowed to kill himself before trial.

The potus does not intervene in matters of privates charged.

[liberation]

210. Woooossssshhhhhhh....

Yeah, we're a nation of laws when it comes to prosecute a private which released a bunch of "gossip" (that used to be you guys line a few weeks back). However, when it comes to actually apply laws to those who led us to an illegal war which killed a bunch of innocent people... then is when the creative red herrings and straw men come out to play.

LOL.

[Ken_Fish]

213. Are we talking wars now? Or did we clear up the obama torturing manning

thing already.

[liberation]

216. Why using the royal "we?"

Regardless of the voices in your head, it's still not plural, and that is your own straw man.

Nobody is saying, well other than you, that Obama tortured Manning directly. He is however, the commander in chief. The buck stops at his desk in terms of such heavy handed policies regarding whistleblowers. I know, your tangential argumentation line does not work well in that case. But that is no reason to play coy like that.

Cheers.

[Ken_Fish]

218. So no one is saying upthread Obama is torturing or responsible

for manning? I must have misread.

The ATF agent who came out and said his boss made them dump illegal guns is a whistleblower.

Manning is accused of espionage related crimes and could be executed. He is charged with felonies and not covered by any whistleblower statutes.

That it not an accurate term for his choices. Support or not, it is dishonest to call him that.

[EFerrari]

157. I'm pretty sure I don't care what he says, why or when.

[Ken_Fish]

160. Once your mind is made up, its just human nature

to dismiss information that does not support you position. It really is just human nature, and it takes effort to leave the critical thinking part of the brain on.

Not caring WHY or questioning data is a pretty big leap of faith. No matter what the topic.

[liberation]

169. Sweet holy saint Bertha mother of the proverbial projection...

you're cracking me up. LOL.

[Ken_Fish]

189. All about me, no real substance. Here is an example of a honest post in response..

hey fish:

mr manning may be suffering from major mental issues. I think it is appropriate from him to be treated in a secure hospital, not in detention.. While being naked is not defined as torture, it is over the top. He should be getting treatment for his illness.

As for his behavior that illness may explain his motive for disclosing documents. His mental state is very important to this case.

See, why is that so hard. So much better than calling me a sock puppet, a paid social media commando, or otherwise attacking me.

I thought this could be an intelligent discourse.

[liberation]

205. Ah, OK. Only you get to use fallacy in this thread.

Got it.

[sabrina 1]

343. I didn't, not after reading a few of your posts. You should

read your own posts before hitting enter, it would spare you from having any false hope of having an 'intelligent discourse'.

We KNOW his mental state is very important. And we know that the U.S. military torture program involves making sure that accused detainees are not in any shape to be able to testify at trial. It is the reason why so many Military Prosecutors recused themselves, to their credit, from cases where detainees were tortured either physically or psychologically or both making them incapable of understanding what was going on and unable to participate in their own defense.

The U.S. does not have a good reputation when it comes to being trusted with detainees.

I think he should be handed over to a humane country which does not have the record of torture and other crimes against humanity that the U.S. now does, until his trial.

Any trial conducted by the U.S. military regarding this soldier, will be a mockery and will have little validity anywhere, except among proponents of Bush policies, a shrinking segment of decent society.

[EFerrari]

174. In fact, I have brought facts to this thread and you have not.

But nice try.

[Ken_Fish]

187. You brought a link to a media source. Which I read and determined

that mr manning was not tortured. According to US laws the DOJ can not discuss mr mannings mental health with the press. That is a rights violation (a real one).

Removing the means for him to suicide is not illegal.

You have yet to present any statement detailing WHY he was held in this manner.. That is the only real factor at work.

[EFerrari]

221. You mean, DoD. And they did disclose this forced nudity

was not a result of a medical consultation.

And no, it doesn't matter a rat's ass WHY they are doing it. It is illegal.

[Ken_Fish]

226. Nope. sure not. here is one of many cases you can find on the google..

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

he is just not as important as manning. no following. Also pretrial, not punitive. Dont let facts stop a good rant.

[EFerrari]

238. That it happened does not mean it was lawful. Good grief. n/t

[Ken_Fish]

240. No it is accepted protocol and in use in the US and Canada

makes it lawful. That it has not been found unlawful, makes it lawful. Even for people who have supporters.

[cstanleytech]

148. So, you are trying to say

that its confirmed Obama is at fault for it based upon that? Sorry but I find that so called evidence to be lacking, let me know if you find something better though like such as an order by him to do this.

[EFerrari]

158. Isn't this thread about Brad Manning?

[liberation]

168. Coincidence being what it is...

... the other person defending torture in this thread is using the same red herring.

[EFerrari]

175. Unreal. n/t

[Ken_Fish]

193. Hey we are just following orders. I mean whatever poster you are talking about

and I are in a glass room like the one on 24 posting what our overlords tell us to..

I mean no one who disagrees with a position could be legit.

[liberation]

204. LOL. You know what they say when your ears ring when you name is not mentioned...

For a "math teacher at a private university" you sure do have plenty of time to post about this Manning fella, LOL.

[Ken_Fish]

211. Right, still have nothing I presume.

so make me the subject rather than the lack of substance in the report or the lack of legal standing to contest any part of what has happened to this person.

[liberation]

215. What for?

So you can read whatever we bring and "determine" whatever you want?

See, other people have already tried to have an adult conversation with you, and you determined they were full of shit in your own estimation. I read what you have brought forth, and I have also made my own personal determination that you are full of shit. See how that works.

Now, everybody has an entitlement to their own opinion. That is what a discussion forum is for. What I find it hilarious is when someone, like you for example, thinks their opinion is either authoritative or equivalent to a factual reference.


Tah Tah...

[Ken_Fish]

219. Like how manning is not special, removing clothing items and clothes is

protocol.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/001/1999/en/ab8c7840-e363-11dd-937f-a170d47c4a8d/amr510011999en.html|.

[Norrin Radd]

100. kr

[TorchTheWitch]

103. your thread title is blatantly false

He was not forced to strip naked and stand in front of his cell for seven hours. He was only forced to stand at the front of his cell after the seven hours passed and the wake up call was sounded as it CLEARLY says in the first paragraph.

[BlueMTexpat]

109. But he was left naked in his cell for seven hours.

The location was stated incorrectly. But the gist of the thread title is not "blatantly false."

Being forced to strip naked and left that way for seven hours is deliberately inhumane and debasing treatment. I am deeply ashamed of and for anyone who would order, implement or justify such treatment on anyone else.

I concur, however, that the title is misleading as stated.

[TorchTheWitch]

156. oh BULLSHIT

The OP was trying to convince people he was being tortured by being forced to stand in one place for 7 hours when he wasn't. So fucking what if they made him sleep naked??? I sleep naked almost every night voluntarily and there isn't a damn thing torturous about it. It also isn't torture for him to have to come to attention while naked at the front of his cell for a few minutes while roll call was done. While it may have been humiliating this is the kind of stuff every soldier in basic training would have to do, too, and no one ever considered it torture before. This kind of "deliberate inhumane and debasing treatment" is par for the course in basic training and throughout the armed forces and always has been, and no one has ever considered it torture including everyone here.

The thread title was a blatant falsehood that was likely created to instill outrage knowing that most people wouldn't actually fucking READ the OP. If you have to make shit up to instill outrage than you already know there's nothing about the TRUTH to be outraged about. Being made to stand for seven hours in one place with or without clothing is most decidedly torture by any reasonable standards, but being made to spend the night without one's clothes and have to come to attention for a few minutes without them is most decidedly NOT. There is a WORLD of difference between the two.

There's plenty about Manning's conditions in prison to be outraged about without having to make up shit to create outrage. It doesn't HELP Manning to make shit up about his conditions and only serves to HURT him. You ok with that??? If you significantly lie about his conditions who's going to believe you about the truth of his conditions? If that lie is to attempt to make his conditions seem MUCH worse than they are, who's going to believe that you think his actual conditions are torturous at all? NO ONE.

[EFerrari]

173. Are you using a crystal ball or a Tarot deck to read kpete's mind?

But 'way to show everyone what is most important about this OP.

[TorchTheWitch]

285. it damn well SHOULD be the most important thing about this thread

Making up something horrible and most assuredly tortuous like making someone stand in one place for seven hours that CLEARLY didn't happen doesn't help Manning and only hurts him. If you have to make up horrible shit that never happened all you're doing is making people believe that nothing bad is happening to him at all and you're just trying to manufacture outrage, and worse, won't be inclined to listen to and won't believe anything else you have to say on the subject.

Trying to convince me that people here, particularly bright long time DUers as the author of the OP, are too stupid to figure out such a clear and detailed article they posted themselves? Not happening.

Are you actually glad that the vast majority in this thread were DUPED by that false title? You should be pissed off that so many people were misled into believing something horrible happened to Manning that never happened! Or are you not really so convinced that what IS happening to him is really "good enough" to be sufficiently outraged about?

And it damn well SHOULD be the most important thing about the OP because it means that he WASN'T actually made to stand at attention in front of his cell for seven hours. How is it that your outrage has become more important than the relief of finding out that this human being WASN'T tortured in that way??? How is it that virtually no one here is thinking "Thank GOD it didn't happen!" and making sure everyone else in the thread knows it and instead seem to be DISAPPOINTED to find out that it didn't happen??? WHERE IS THE RELIEF IN KNOWING IT DIDN'T HAPPEN??? Because you bloody better believe it was MY first thought and most overwhelming feeling that this human being WAS NOT made to stand at attention in one place for seven hours!!! How is it that it wasn't yours or anyone else's???

Jesus fucking Christ on a cracker, OF COURSE his NOT having suffered such a thing as that false title tried to convince people of is the most important thing!!! How the fuck does anyone with any empathy whatsoever possibly think otherwise???

Honest to God I truly believe that nobody here really cares SHIT ONE what is or is not happening to Manning and ALL OTHERS in his same or worse circumstances in prison and is only using him as a convenient platform for some good old fashioned outrage to fling around and get all righteous over.

[Ken_Fish]

306. It looks like a fuck obama meme to me. Read upthread

obama tortured him. Obama's fault. reads like a hard right forum.

the blame the POTUS act is amazing and the only reason I bothered to post in this thread. pretty sad.

[OwnedByFerrets]

177. There is a huge fucking difference between volunteering

to do a thing and being FORCED to do a thing...especially when that thing is demeaning.

[Travelman]

246. He *DID* volunteer

Manning is still in the armed services. He signed on the dotted line, voluntarily. He also voluntarily committed a shitload of espionage, and voluntarily confessed to it.

He had to sleep in the buff? Whoopty fuckin' do! He has to shower in the nude, too. ZOMG!



What a bullshit thing to get worked up over. Sheesh. Stupid manufactured outrage like this is precisely why I unreced this OP. Anyone who is actually interested in actual facts should unrec it, too.

[BlueMTexpat]

341. You lost me at your second word. nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

118. How do we know that any of these events actually occured at all?

[EFerrari]

119. Because they have been confirmed by the Pentagon.

I put the link a few posts up. Eta: #119

[Ken_Fish]

132. The real question is do we know WHY these events occurred ..

is the guy a suicide risk after his new charges? Did he find out that the prosecution is gunning for the needle? Or did someone just randomly decide to have naked time?

That is the key information missing from this article. Its absence has been filled with speculation and emotional responses.

[EFerrari]

172. No. This is illegal, period. And the update says

this was not done in consultation with any doctors.

[Ken_Fish]

191. Again why was it done?

do you have a link? I am not saying there was no doctor or was, just would like a link..

I am having trouble finding a law that makes placing a detained person on suicide watch.

[EFerrari]

202. Baloney. There is no forced nudity requirement for a suicide watch.

[Ken_Fish]

214. And there is no statute barring it. So considering their job is to be sure he

lives to make court it makes sense. If he suicides it would be a mess. Can you imagine the conspiracy people, it would be awful.

[EFerrari]

222. Yes, there is. Abuse and humiliation of prisoners is against the law

in this country and violates all kinds of agreements we have in the international community.

[Ken_Fish]

229. No, that is not true. Like this man and many others he can be held

on suicide watch with no clothes.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

[Kingofalldems]

138. Fail

[avaistheone1]

104. Disgusting treatment of a man deemed innocent at this point

under our country's rule of law.


:thumbsdown:

[kimsarah]

107. Perhaps ...

What goes around comes around. As it should. The sooner the better.

[DesertDiamond]

111. Torture started with prisoners in Abu Graib and Gitmo has progressed to torturing our own.

[Citizen Worker]

112. I don't understand what could possibly be stalling the closure of Gitmo. The brig at the Quantico

Marine base has a fully trained staff.

[msanthrope]

162. um, the law that Congress passed forbidding President Obama

from moving the detainees onto American soil???

Really. You can look it up.

[Mimosa]

113. They're going to break him down to NOTHING.

He'll say whatever they want when they've finished with him. Then they'll get Assange.

[boston bean]

115. this makes me sick.

[Freddie Stubbs]

117. For a guy who is supposedly being held in solitary, we sure do seem to know a lot about

his life in prison.

[Union Scribe]

163. Yeah, why can't we go back to the days where we didn't hear about the torture.

It was so much more...dignified that way. Nice sig pic, btw. Very, er, revealing.

[Badfish]

120. unrec for spin.

[realFedUp]

121. Injustices

I am not feeling the laws of or justice in this country anymore.

The reaction of this administration/army to Assange and Manning is injustice.
Clarence Thomas still sitting on the court is injustice.
Reacting to Libya with the threat of our military way is injustice
Not having a single payer health care option while Anthem et al randomly raises its rates to unaffordable heights is injustice.
Continuing to give a public airways license to Faux News is injustice.
Trying to break up unions is injustice
Publically hired pols lying is injustice
Corporations who continue to pollute land for profit is injustice

Charlie Sheen should be in jail for criminal acts against women instead of rewarded with millions. Shame on CBS and our justice system.
Walker being recalled would be justice.

[EFerrari]

171. And they did it AGAIN last night and without consulting any doctors:

04 March 2011
PFC Manning Stripped Naked Again

PFC Manning was forced to strip naked in his cell again last night. As with the previous evening, Quantico Brig guards required him to surrender all of his clothing. PFC Manning then walked back to his bed, and spent the next seven hours in humiliation.

The decision to require him to be stripped of all clothing was made by the Brig commander, Chief Warrant Officer-2 Denise Barnes. According to First Lieutenant Brian Villard, a Marine spokesman, the decision was "not punitive" and done in accordance with Brig rules. There can be no conceivable justification for requiring a soldier to surrender all his clothing, remain naked in his cell for seven hours, and then stand at attention the subsequent morning. This treatment is even more degrading considering that PFC Manning is being monitored -- both by direct observation and by video -- at all times. The defense was informed by Brig officials that the decision to strip PFC Manning of all his clothing was made without consulting any of the Brig's mental health providers.

On Wednesday, the government filed its response to the defense's Article 138 complaint concerning PFC Manning's confinement conditions. The preliminary decision made by the government was to deny PFC Manning's request to be removed from Maximum custody and from Prevention of Injury (POI) watch. The defense now has ten days to file a rebuttal to this determination. After submitting the rebuttal, the matter will go back to the Quantico Base Commander, Colonel Daniel J. Choike, for his review. Once complete, he will forward the report to the Secretary of the Navy for final review.

Posted by Army Court-Martial Defense Specialist at 12:11 PM

[Aerows]

181. There is no doubt what is going on here

They are trying to break the man so that he doesn't have a trial. If he kills himself or goes insane, even if he is ruled insane, it will prevent things from getting messy for the military.

This is horribly sad. Agree or disagree with his actions, he doesn't warrant this kind of treatment before even being convicted of a crime. I feel very sorry for his family, as well. It must be awful to know a family member is suffering this way.

[EFerrari]

183. Glenn Greenwald points out this morning that Geoff Morrell lied

about forced nudity in Abu Graib, too.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/04/morrell/index.html

[OwnedByFerrets]

176. Where is his "boss" and why doesnt he put a stop to this?

[Zoeisright]

179. You know, if that was me, I'd do my best to masturbate in front of those bastards.

Making your captors uncomfortable is really the only way he has to fight back.

[EFerrari]

180. This story went all over the world last night.

And they did it again anyway.

[Ken_Fish]

196. can you imagine the repercussions if he hung himself..

there are reasons they hold people who are suicide risks in restricted manners. Without confirmation there is no knowing on either "side", but preventing a suicide is their job. Not like he is going to make bail or something.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/sailor-accused-of-murdering-fellow-seaman-commits-suicide-in-custody.html

[EFerrari]

201. Forced nudity is not a requirement of a suicide watch. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

209. It is a well known fact that forcing people to strip has a calming effect and produces good cheer.

Not to mention the joys of solitary confinement and pleasant and sympathetic marine guards watching ones every move.

All that's needed is the bright smile and ministrations of Lynndie England and her playful doggie tricks to really brighten his day.

[Ken_Fish]

217. Has been used before for far less "important" people.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/001/1999/en/ab8c7840-e363-11dd-937f-a170d47c4a8d/amr510011999en.html|.

[EFerrari]

220. Yes. It seems to be a preferred tactic at the Pentagon.

[Ken_Fish]

223. Hey is that manning on the right? Used in holding cells is common. Sorry to burst your meme

Care to address the link where this practice is discussed in prior use. No? Does not allign with your POV?


http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

230. Is there evidence that Manning is mentally ill or has a thyroid condition?

[Ken_Fish]

233. He was being ordered to take a ssri drug

those are generally used for mood disorders.

[EFerrari]

231. You really don't see that forced nudity is not only wrong but illegal

no matter who has used it, do you?

And there is no evidence whatsoever that a doctor had anything to do with this.

[Ken_Fish]

235. Nope, just like this guy without a following. It is used in the US and Canada

without doctors orders. Just on people you never heard of.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

[fascisthunter]

289. how does it feel not to have a conscience?

[Ken_Fish]

305. Aww, I can google, and kick a meme

for being silly. manning is nothing special. Obama did not torture him.. he is charges with aiding the enemy in war time. That is a a death penalty crime.

So again, why should he be allowed to kill himself before trial?

nothing special about this protocol.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

184. All of this because Manning embarrassed some bigshots.

Our government has become pathetic in it's fear of the people.

[jwirr]

188. The DNC just sent me a survey and asked for money. I fill the survey

out as I usually would but I had just opened this post as I got to the part about adding my personal views. "STOP torturing PFC Bradley Manning. I have voted democratic since Kennedy. I am thinking of staying home 2012. If a party is going to destroy my country then let it be the repugs - not FDR's party". That is what I told them. In the section they asked for money I wrote "NONE" and drew and arrow to my statement.

I am shaking that things like this and the police guard in WI are happening in the country I grew up in and that I loved and trusted to keep us safe. Safe hell. And that my own party is the one to betray us is even worse.

[VoteProgressive]

206. Horrible!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

234. Would the defenders of this treatment still be as sanguine if Manning were a woman?

If "she" was kept in solitary, forced to strip, stand at attention, and be ogled by the guards and officers?

[Ken_Fish]

236. Yes. happens all the time to people without followers.

under a situation where the person is suicidal yes. As punishment no way.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/001/1999/en/ab8c7840-e363-11dd-937f-a170d47c4a8d/amr510011999en.html|.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

241. Manning was judged to be suicidal by whom on this occasion?

A doctor? Psychiatrist? A medical panel? If he is suicidal or mentally ill, is he undergoing treatment/therapy? Is forcing him to strip considered helpful for mental problems?

[Ken_Fish]

242. Forcing him (ordering him) to take SSRI drug is treatment

in other cases no doctor has been required to enforce this protocol. Basically their job is to be sure he cant hang himself before trial.

Support of non support of manning aside this Obama torture meme is very disturbing.

One of MANY cases that google turned up. Note person is pretrial.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

245. I find "everybody does it" a piss poor rationalization for brutality or mistreatment.

They ordered prisoners (aka "patients") to take drugs in the gulags in the Soviet Union.

This man is being held for a non-violent "crime" that's result was to embarrass some in our government. Like it or not, Obama is the head of the government and is responsible for what the government does.

Saying that his treatment is not punishment is, at best, disingenuous.

[Ken_Fish]

253. He is being held for trial. no more no less.

his crime is a felony with a potential death sentence. I am staying his treatment is a common protocol used in the US and Canada to keep people from killing themselves in prison.

If his crime is determined to have caused death or damage he could be executed. Still a serious matter.

He will receive a trial as defined by the UCMJ. That makes him the same as any other person.

[fascisthunter]

290. being abused without a trial.... sick

[Ken_Fish]

307. Hey wanna know how people suicide before trial. they hang..

themselves. Their job is to make sure manning shows up. You think this guy and the hundreds like him are abused?

He does not have all the followers manning has.. but same thing

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/115193539.html

[bvar22]

333. Somebody should tell Manning that he is a national hero.

Whistleblowers like Manning are the last check "We The People" have on our Run Away Government.
Without them, our "democracy" is truly lost.

Manning deserves a Medal and a Monument.
:patriot:

[Name removed]

243. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[valerief]

244. We are fast becoming the libertarian paradise, Somalia. nt

[upi402]

248. Somalia is a good example for those oddballs to be referred to.

Some seem like very smart people but just wont think critically about the big picture. Just stuck on ideology for some reason.

[valerief]

259. Which is very unsmart. nt

[fittosurvive]

313. Somalia is in a state of anarchy, i.e., might makes right.

Little by little, grift by grift, the US has become a government of men, and not a government of laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

[florida08]

255. this is NOT about Manning

This about a message being sent to anyone in the military who might have a conscience or sense of duty to the American people. This about a fucking video tape called Collateral Murder where it showed US pilots in Apaches gunning down innocent civilians in Baghdad. Anyone who would equate Manning with that display of unbridled, unchecked or unverified force scares the hell out of me. Were there any investigations into that? Anyone held accountable? Hell no..but Bradley Manning..yeah he's a risk to national security..my ass.

This is the ramification of having an all volunteer army. If you're someone who thinks your joining to defend democracy Bradley Manning will stand as a reminder. Either you play it our way or you don't play at all.

[Ken_Fish]

257. A quick google says that there was an investigation and no criminal act

occurred. Much detail.

http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210/Death%20of%20Reuters%20Journalists/5--1st%20Air%20Cavalry%20Brigade%20AR%2015-6%20Investigation.pdf

[florida08]

263. Like I said

there was no invesitgation

[Ken_Fish]

265. AR-15.6 investigation is linked for your reading pleasure..

Not agreeing with it is one thing, denying it exists is another.

[florida08]

266. what I am denying is it's validity

but you knew that already.

[Ken_Fish]

269. Reuters does not deny its content or conclusion (nt)

[Joey Liberal]

260. Our Army cannot be trusted

Just look at what Lt. General Caldwell did to our own Senators.

[yawnmaster]

261. We are so hung up on clothing in this country. eom

[Enthusiast]

264. Torture isn't just for WWII Nazis

now, it's for everyone! This is what happens when we extend the Bush Administration for a third term.

[Ken_Fish]

308. So obama is bush. wow.

holy fuck. because this guy is denied the tools to hang himself before being convicted Obama is the enemy.

shameful.

[Bluebear]

344. Obama's not prosecuting torture is shameful.

[AKDavy]

267. When truth becomes the enemy of the state nt

[SkyDaddy7]

275. This article is wrong ..

When I was in the military there was a military prison on my base...Vandenberg AFB, Ca., And it was common practice to strip inmates naked & have them stand at the entrance to their cell for long periods of time...And the gaurds would even humiliate some of the prisoners in the process! I am not saying it is correct I am just saying if it happened to Manning he is not the only one that it has happened to in a US Military Prison.

[pam4water]

292. They are going to kill that poor guy one way or another. Too little sleep will kill you eventually.

[fittosurvive]

310. USMC Dateline - Quantico Brig, Manning faces his family, whom he has betrayed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semper_fidelis

[grahamhgreen]

319. Guilty before trial?

[lonestarnot]

312. What is the fucking purpose of this perversion? Why are we allowed to torture people in the U.S.?

[Rex]

326. Because the BFEE was being completely serious when they said

"9/11 changed everything". If only we knew what they truly meant back then, maybe we could have put a stop to the torture, rape and killings.

[grahamhgreen]

318. A humanitarian commander in chief could stop this with a phone call

[fittosurvive]

327. The CIC has given his word that he will defend and protect this country.

Likewise, he depends on the soldiers he commands to honor and uphold the oaths of allegiance that each of them has pledged.

Unfortunately, one of the men under his command has betrayed our country and enabled the enemy. As a result, he has also jeopardized the lives of his fellow soldiers--the sons and daughters of America.

There will be no phone call from the CIC, because unlike you, he fully comprehends the severity of this soldier's crime.

[Rex]

328. Still does not excuse the torture.

They can give him a trial, but the abuse is unwarranted and uncalled for.

[grahamhgreen]

330. The soldier has been accused, not convicted. The soldier is innocent even if he did

release the documents.

Whistleblowing on war crimes is protected under law.

In fact, it is the duty of the soldier who is sworn to protect the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The items revealed in the documents reveal a systemic and endemic effort on the part of a group of individuals to subvert our constitution and lie to the American people, IMHO.

Again, the soldier merely stands accused. The soldier is fighting for what is right, IMHO.

BTW - there main witness against Manning is Adrian Lamo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Lamo) - a convicted felon with a sketchy past.

[Ken_Fish]

331. The main witness is his user id on secure systems.

that alone will probably convict him.

[sabrina 1]

334. Convict him of what?

You can't convict someone of a crime for abiding by the oath they took to defend and protect the Constitution.

He is an exemplary soldier because he refused to participate in war crimes and reported them. If more soldiers had the guts to do that, this would be a far better country and we not be so reviled around the world.

The 'enemy' was 'domestic' in this case. In a fair trial, which he cannot get in this country now, he would be completely exhonerated and presented with a medal.

But sooner or later, that will happen. The truth always prevails even if sometimes it takes decades. History will definitely be far kinder to brave soldiers like him than to those who committed the crimes and ordered others to do so.

[ReggieVeggie]

329. Barack Obama should be held responsible for this

he should be held responsible by his loyal followers as well but he won't be

[fascisthunter]

332. of course he could.... but his reputation in being a hard ass is on the line

political expediency, and Manning's well being is the sacrifice.

[Rex]

325. Let us see...UCMJ, UCMJ...nope don't see that anywhere in there.

This is pure torture, done publicly to send a message to American citizens and military personal alike - we CAN and WILL torture you 'in broad daylight' and no one will stop us. Pretty intimidating stuff there, I hope the kid hangs in, but I know they will break him and he will end up dead one way or another. Sad, yes. Pathetic, yes. Wrong, oh yes totally.

Obama? You want to stop this torture NOW or wait until the campaign trail when it comes back to bite you in the ass? I know, wait...it is what you do. Sigh.

[Obamanaut]

335. Neither the article at the link nor the first paragraph in the OP said

Manning stood at front of cell naked for seven hours, just that he "...remained in his cell, naked, for the next seven hours..."



BTW it's court martial not marshall

[Travelman]

340. Good luck with that

Seems that actually pointing out the facts is frowned upon.