What BYU Did NOT Tell Us...

[kpete]

Brigham Young University Takes A Stand... Against Interracial Marriage?!
justinsarma
................

If you watch CNN today, you'll hear flattering reports of Brigham Young University's recent decision to indefinitely suspend Brandon Davies from its basketball team. BYU is contrasted with other less scrupulous schools like Seton Hall, which are known for responding to the DWI's of their star basketball players with only slap-on-the-wrist suspensions. Isn't it wonderful to see a school forgo the profits and publicity of a successful basketball team in the name of principle?

The principle in question is supposedly that BYU's students pledge not to engage in pre-marital sex (or alcohol or coffee). Brandon Davies allegedly violated this principle when he confessed to having sex with another student.

What CNN won't tell you is Brandon Davies is black, and this other student is white. Maybe this had nothing to do with the decision, but I have my doubts considering that 58% of BYU students admit to engaging in pre-marital sex. Why haven't the BYU inquisitors taken action against these students' transgressions?

Perhaps they're just trying to set an example, but to target a black student in a predominantly white state/school for such a commonplace violation should definitely raise questions. And not the obsequious ones the media has chosen to ask.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/04/952764/-Brigham-Young-University-Takes-A-Stand-Against-Interracial-Marriage!

[TxVietVet]

1. I don't know much, however, I know how mormons operate.

When I saw HIM, I immediately knew SHE had to be WHITE.

Hey, it's Utah, it's mormons and it's subtly racist. Always. That's why they love the conservanazis' bu$hit. It appeals to their homegrown religion.

[virgogal]

7. Posts 2 and 3 clarified things. I found both posts quite helpful.

[Buzz Clik]

2. This isn't going to work as a race thing.

Though I'm not a Mormon, I've been on the BYU campus for a conference. I was very young and fairly recently married. The conference was in the summer, and we were staying a girls' dorm. The Resident Assistants (upperclassmen who manage the dorms) stopped me every time I entered the door to check my name as a legit resident of the empty floor they had reserved for the conference attendees. No male students were allowed near that dorm, and there were no co-ed dorms.

BYU is deadly serious about their rules, and they make no exceptions. I'd rather be uneducated than face such rules, but these have been the rules for generations. They toss white kids from their university for rules violations, and they tossed Davies from the bball team.

Bad or good, it is what it is, but it is not racism.

[Luminous Animal]

4. 58% of BYU students admit to engaging in pre-marital sex.

"but I have my doubts considering that 58% of BYU students admit to engaging in pre-marital sex. Why haven't the BYU inquisitors taken action against these students' transgressions?"

[Drunken Irishman]

6. Show me evidence of that 58%, please.

[Drunken Irishman]

8. I did a Google search about that 58%...

And can't find a thing. I found a 20-year old article from the Salt Lake Tribune that says 58% of MORMON WOMEN have admitted to premarital sex - but not all Mormons attend BYU and not all Mormons are asked to live the honor code.

[Hugabear]

57. I know. College kids having sex, kinda hard to believe, ain't it

Next you're going to tell me that college kids drink alcohol and smoke pot.

[demwing]

70. Not BYU Students

Those kids go to Utah State :P

[fishwax]

58. all the same, when an organization discourages interracial marriage

then a situation such as this is likely to raise such questions.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. This is BS...

I am a Utah Utes fan and hate everything about BYU, but this article is completely wrong.

He was not kicked out of school. He was kicked off the team. That was a decision made by Dave Rose, the head coach of the BYU Cougars.

A similar situation happened to the football team last year when star running back Harvey Unga was kicked off the football team because of premarital sex.

His girlfriend, Keilani Moeaki, who is not white, was also kicked off the women's basketball team.

This has nothing to do with race. I promise you. You can debate the rules all you want, but Davies is still allowed to attend class (even if he did break the honor code). He just can't play basketball this season. That was decision made by the coaches.

[Buzz Clik]

5. +1

The biases here (and elsewhere) against Mormons is pretty strong.

[jberryhill]

10. As is their bias against gays

And, having lived as a non-Mormon in Logan years ago, I'll just stop there.

[Buzz Clik]

17. I'm not a fan, trust me. That doesn't change the fact that an unbiased view of Mormons at DU...

... is highly unlikely.

[jberryhill]

38. There is no such thing as an unbiased view

Granted BYU was the excuse for god changing his mind from "white and delightsome" to "pure and delightsome", but I can't see how that's possible in a direct transcription from the 1800's. It's not like they discovered lost scrolls in Zion National Park.

[Major Hogwash]

11. That's because Mormonism is a cult, not a church.

And anyone that has ever met anyone who has been excommunicated by that cult will tell you that.

[Buzz Clik]

19. So, all the antagonism against Mormons is because they are a cult?

Well, okay. I wasn't trying to project a reason why there is bias, I was just pointing it out.

[Major Hogwash]

44. It's a very repressive quote, religion, unquote.

Just as repressive as most of the other ones out there.
Even moreso in some ways.
The members become like moonies or something.

No smoking, no drinking, no sex outside of marriage, no porn.

What's this world coming to?

I can just see what Senator Pence from Indiana will have to say about it --

"The amount of federal dollars earmarked for Pell Grants must be lowered now that we know these kids are having sex at college.
Oh, sure the Pell Grant money is not going towards the actual having of the sex.
But these kids are using their other money for that.
So, we need to reduce the excessive amount of taxpayer's money poured into these grants because federal dollars should not be spent so college-aged kids can have enough extra money in order to have sex."

Former Senator Santorum's comments about this "event" --

"And beastiality should not be condoned in any way, shape, or form on any college campus. Have you seen some of the girls that go to BYU? Or the ones at Penn State? Some of them are dogs! And this type of sexual activity of 'man on dog' sex must stop now."

And of course Senator Hatch will weigh in --

"I don't know what kids are thinking these days. But, when I was younger and was attending college we didn't have doggy style sex. We were only allowed to have 'good old fashioned, man-on-top, get-it-over-with-quick' sex. So I think these kids should concentrate more on chemistry and not so much on biology. Besides dinosaurs were on the earth at the same time that Adam was walking around with Eve and there were no colleges in those days, so I don't know why we even have colleges if this is what the kids are learning now."

And then I'm sure Senator Kerry will have something to say about --

"Back in 1969, when I was in Vietnam, it was just a few years after I had been in college. And when I was in college we would think about having sex, and we knew then that no one went to Vietnam to have sex. So, here we are almost 40 years later, no, more than 40 years later, and we are still examining the effects of not having engaged in sex while in college. And we have analyzed the situation that exists in colleges across this country today, not only back then, but as it exists now, and I have to say, little has changed over the years. Why, just the other day a young man, a man in his early 20s, approached me while I was coming out of the Senate chambers. And he asked me if it was this way, the way it is now, back in 1969 when I first went to Vietnam. And I looked at that young man, and then I looked at the sky, and I thought 'what should I tell this young man today? How can I look him straight in the face and tell him that so much has changed since then, but then, not enough has changed.' And as I looked up at the sky I noticed that the clouds were moving in, and they were growing quite dark, and I knew then that I had an answer for that young man. And I told him that just as it was for me when I went to Vietnam in 1969, it is today the same whenever the rain starts to come down. In that, those that remain outside will get wet, and those that seek shelter, by going indoors, will remain dry. And I think that I reached that young man that day because the look on his face was a look I have seen many, many times as a Senator from Massachusetts. The look of hope that spread across his face, as he smiled broadly, gleeming actually, that hope of one day having sex, and being able to stand, toe to toe, and look himself in the mirror, was one I will never forget. And as I was talking to that young man, the wind shifted and the clouds began to break up and I knew then, as I know now, that when the winds change, the cloud cover can break up, as long as the humidity is not too high, and the pressure gradient doesn't rise rapidly. Because you see back in 1969, when I was in Vietnam, the wind would pick up, and the clouds would not disperse then, as they do these days, as they did back then, when I was in Vietnam. And I think back now, as I did then, on that young man's face, and I wonder if that is the face of tomorrow. I am sure that it is the look of hope that will always stay with me tomorrow, and even today, as I remember back to yesterday about what the weather was like back then, as it is again today, a little windy."

[ReggieVeggie]

66. a devoutly racist and homophobic cult

you defending racism and homophobia buzz?

[LadyHawkAZ]

14. Yes it is

and with good reason. They are a sick, sad cult.

That being said, Drunken Irishman's right- this is nowhere near the first time BYU has done this and it has nothing to do with race.

[Drunken Irishman]

18. I feel very uncomfortable with that type of language...

Having lived my life here in Utah, I've come to know many, many, many Mormons. Most are some of the nicest and most sincere people you'll ever meet. That isn't to say there aren't zealots out there - but you get that with every religion.

My mom's neighbor is a former Mormon Bishop. He's a Korean veteran and was the first to always come over and check on my parents, even though they're known Catholics. When my dad died, he was the only person from my parent's street (my mom has lived on this street since the 60s), to attend his funeral.

Calling them a sick, sad cult is too strong of language and I will not accept that opinion. I do not agree with much of the LDS teachings, but I know many lead their life doing good.

[Buzz Clik]

20. You're on a roll, DI. My experience is similar.

:thumbsup:

[Drunken Irishman]

22. When you spend your entire life in Utah, you tend to meet many good Mormons...

I had some great LDS teachers in elementary, junior high and high school. I've had Mormon professors who were extraordinarily people. I've had Mormon best friends. I've dated Mormon girls. My favorite football team is led by a Mormon.

That's just how it is here, though.

[Buzz Clik]

24. There was quite a large enclave of Mormons where I went to college.

Like you, I had many friends and instructors who were Mormons. Some very nice folks.

[riderinthestorm]

28. Who hate gays and work towards their discrimination (see Prop 9 fight in CA) nt

[Buzz Clik]

30. Ok. Their dedication to their religion makes it likely that many will have low tolerance for gays.

That doesn't mean that the OP is correct that the dismissal of Davies from the bball team was based on race.

[riderinthestorm]

34. It's not a far stretch from being bigots to also being racists.

When did the LDS church finally allow blacks to be members....?

ETA, June 1978 they finally allowed blacks to be considered as "equals" in the LDS church. And you don't think they have a problem with racism???

[FreeState]

61. Prop 8, not 9, and a recent study showed only 50% of LDS are against marriage equality n/t

[riderinthestorm]

27. Who actively discriminate and work against the LGBT community. nt

[Drunken Irishman]

29. Not all members...

[riderinthestorm]

33. You asked why the amorphous DU, or individual DUers, are so negative about Mormons

I'm giving you one reason. Prop 9 in CA.

Sorry, you may know some kind Mormons in Utah but just like the kind evangelical Christians I knew in Wheaton, IL they were bigots.

It's not a stretch to say that they are also racist. At least it wasn't in my old stomping grounds (Wheaton College - very much akin to BYU)

[Drunken Irishman]

37. I didn't ask such a question...

I only said calling them a sick cult is out of bounds. If you disagree with their positions, great. I do too. I know many Mormons who are not anti-gay. In fact, you'd be surprised at how many Mormons in Salt Lake are gay. It's a conflict, as it always is with religion. I am a Catholic. I attend church most Sundays. My church is also very anti-gay and it's difficult for me to reconcile that.

My guess is I'm probably not really welcomed at DU because of the teachings of my church - even if I don't share them personally.

[riderinthestorm]

41. Sorry that was Buzz Clik. I apologize.

And I don't think calling the LDS church a sick cult is out of bounds. I both disagree with their positions AND believe they are brainwashing young people into accepting their mythology exactly the same as a cult. But this cult actively works against the LGBT community. I find that sick.

I believe all voices are welcome at DU but do know that you better have a thicker skin than this at DU as a believer. Nobody's faith is sacred.

As a peace gesture I will confess (are you a priest?) that I'm both an Irishwoman and drunk at the moment. Dé hAoine sásta Béarla

[LadyHawkAZ]

32. I also live here in Utah

although I'm not a lifelong resident. My best friend is LDS. I also know many Mormons and they are indeed nice people. That doesn't make their church any less a sick, sad cult. If you are unable to hear the brainwashing loud and clear in their voice when they talk about their church, you've lived here too long. Their speech is passionate but has the "wooden" delivery associated with heavy programming. Having been around a lot of both, I compare it to a battered wife repeating her husband's pre-programmed excuses. Same tone, same effect.

It doesn't mean they're not nice people in their daily lives, but the FSM help us all if the church ever orders them to turn on the rest of us.

[Drunken Irishman]

39. It's a religion. Not a cult...

It can be a sad religion, and I'd agree with you there. But it's not a cult.

[jberryhill]

46. It's a PAC and a huge financial empire based on a scam

And it is infecting our politics in a way that no other religious group does - and that's a crowded field.

[LadyHawkAZ]

48. The only difference between them and other modern cults

is in the number of followers and the fact that the leader(s) they worship are dead.

Bizarre belief system. Heavy indoctrination. Complete loyalty to the organization taught and required. Total control of members' lives, including marital sex lives, by leaders. Alienation from non-members. Alienation for departing members. Secret ceremonies in closed buildings. Special clothing. Required "voluntary" monetary payments from members. Founded by and for a perverted, convicted con man for the sole purpose of money and sex.

It's a cult.

[QC]

50. I had a cousin get mixed up with the LDS outfit. Yes, it's a cult.

They isolated her from her family and friends, appealed to her emotional vulnerabilities (her mother had just died), threatened to ostracize her if she resisted their teachings, etc. Classic cult indoctrination.

And yes, she even spent some time at BYU, where the atmosphere was too authoritarian and creepy even for her to take. In fact, BYU is where she decided that she wasn't a Mormon after all.

[Drunken Irishman]

51. You don't really know what you're talking about...

But that's okay. You'll get lots of support because DU is very intolerant of others' opinions. Which is ironic, because you'd think this place would at least be reasonable in practice toward differing view points. You know, with us being supposed liberals and all.

But nope. There is an extremely anti-religious bent here on DU that goes well beyond just the trashing of the LDS Church. I've seen it with Catholicism, Islam, Judaism and pretty much every other mainstream religion out there.

That's okay. It's okay to trash an entire group of people because of what you perceive to be the truth. That's tolerated here. We can call Mormons sick and perverted cultists and that's perfectly fine.

Pretty remarkable.

[LadyHawkAZ]

52. Um...

On top of the practicing Mormons I hang out with, I attend a group packed with exited Mormons. I live with an exited Mormon. And I am a very good listener.

Yes, I do know what I'm talking about, but feel free to bash me if you like. I'm a big girl. I can take it. :)

I call it as I see it, though.

[TxVietVet]

67. Their leaders aren't actually dead they are gods of their own planets now.

As more and more of their "true" beliefs are revealed to the general public, they change their "doctrine" to satisfy how society outside the cult will veiw them. They were openly racist until the times of the 60s and 70s placed them on the heavily racist side of society. They changed their doctrine. I should say "they", some did, some didn't. But the cult leaders had to openly explain why they changed to their "new" doctrine. The more investigation you do into the "religion" either done by investigators or by "mainstream" christian churches, you can find out how goofy the cult it. It has been explained that some that realize it is a cult will continue to go along so that they won't be thrown out of their communities. Basically, it was a cult create by a con artist to get money and sex. He kept changing the rules to keep satisfying the greed for both. Finally, Smith was murdered. Murder or "blood atonement" was/is a pretty common practice. Read the story of Ervil Lebaron. His spawn are still on the run, wanted for murder.

It's a CULT, an almost closed society, that loves marriage to multiple women, hatred of gays and a bare tolerance for other than the white race. The history of mormonism is filled with hatred and murder.

[hedgehog]

40. I have to agree with you there. The Mormons I know are decent

people. I can sympathize with those who may disagree with many of the teachings but who value the community. As a Catholic, I face the problem every day of seeing an entrenched group of men dominating my Church.

[jberryhill]

45. And those decent people funded prop 8

A lot of people before the civil war were decent folk too.

And they owned slaves.

[jberryhill]

42. "a known Catholic"

DI, most Catholics in the US do not have to qualify their social place as "a known Catholic". I lived there for a stint years ago and you have internalized "your place" in society there the way that non-Mormons cope there. Of course, living in the "sin city" of Salt Lake, it's not that bad for you.

[TxVietVet]

68. When my dad died, he was the only person from my parent's street (my mom has lived on this street si

He's lucky he didn't get ex-communicated for that, right there. I'm sure he got shunned.

You don't the sick side of it. If you family lived on that street for years and only one mormon neighbor came to the funeral, ever wonder why?
That man was probably more tolerant of others than his whole congregation. Now, how would you have felt IF NONE of your parents neighbors, whom you've probably known for years NEVER SHOWN UP?

Just curious.

From personal experience in the military and in civilian life, they will shun an outsider real fast, some with outward contempt for you.

It's a SICK CULT.

[demwing]

72. Right behind you

Lived in Spanish Fork for 10 years, heart of Happy Valley. Not LDS, in fact spent most of my days hanging around the local Krishna Temple.

When my 9 year old pagan son died, the entire community came to his funeral at the Krishna Temple. People I didn't know read his obit in the local paper or heard about our family in church, and every day was an outpouring of love and support from the LDS community.

I don't agree with their religion, their politics, or their lifestyle, but I do know that there are MANY LDS who have good hearts, despite all else.

[femrap]

9. How did the university find

out that these 2 had sex? Did she get pregnant? Were they caught in the act?

Mormons are just too damn weird. They remind me of the Taliban. And I don't believe for one minute that the dude who started this religion had a chat with God. Give me a break. He was out for some power and money....oh, and to have sex with a lot of women. What a turd.

[Drunken Irishman]

13. That was never released...

From what I'm told, Brandon Davies went to the coaching staff and admitted he had sex with his girlfriend.

They are strict. You break the honor code and it's unlikely you're going to be allowed to continue attending school there.

Hell, I'd wager the athletes at BYU are given way more leeway than most students. That includes black, white, Polynesian - whatever.

You can find fault in the code. Many BYU fans think it's archaic and ridiculous. But it's the rules. He broke the rules and he's lucky he wasn't kicked out of the school. He's still allowed to attend, just not play basketball. And that was probably a decision made by the head coach.

[femrap]

21. All I gotta say is

these Mormons are creating some fu*ked up people. Do they still make them wear that funky underwear????

[Drunken Irishman]

23. Yes.

[riderinthestorm]

15. He still faces a hearing about whether he is going to get kicked out of school

The coach kicked him off the team immediately - he has the authority for that. But there is a hearing scheduled for Davis on whether he will be kicked out of the school (almost certainly for violating the honor code).

[Drunken Irishman]

16. As it is with every case...

It's possible he is kicked out of the school. BYU is very strict.

Go to a football or basketball game there and you'll find all the drinks are caffeine-free.

No alcohol at all on campus. No coffee houses, either.

[riderinthestorm]

26. Just responding to your post about Davis NOT being kicked out of school

He probably will be.

I hope this case puts a spotlight on the archaic rules of BYU and scares enough players away that the team faces huge problems recruiting in the future. I hate this kind of societal "shaming" over something like the Davis case when Mormons are at the forefront of gay-bashing as one example, and they aren't ever publicly called to task for that bigotry.

It's a twisted set of "rules" they want everyone to abide by imho.

[beac]

31. I can only hope he is immediately recruited by another school and

eventually has the chance to score the winning basket against BYU during March Madness.

[riderinthestorm]

35. I assume there are more than a few coaches right now that are shitting their pants

to get at Davis and sign him up. If premarital sex (no drugs, no crime, no gangsta shit) is ALL he's doing, I'm sure he's a hot commodity right now and is being wooed even as we speak.....

[JonLP24]

71. I hope he lands at Colorado State

I actually prefer him at Arizona State but he has a better chance of defeating BYU at CSU.

[madinmaryland]

12. Yeap. I had commented a couple of days ago that it seemed a bit odd that

a lily-white school like BYU would be disciplining a young man who is not white.

[unkachuck]

25. oh my....

....a mostly white, straight-laced, holier-than-thou crowd picking on someone not holier-than-thou?....how unusual....however

....I choose remember Mountain Meadows to put things in perspective....

http://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/

[somone]

36. Davies is lucky Brigham Young is not alive

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." - Brigham Young

[jberryhill]

47. Yeah, but at least Brigham Young wouldn't mind about the sex in general

[Dawson Leery]

49. It is beyond why any minority would go to Brigham Young University.

[fishwax]

54. In Davies's case, he's mormon himself

He was raised by his (adoptive) parents in Utah as part of a mormon family.

[Dawson Leery]

69. Most unfortunate.

[bluestate10]

43. The kid should transfer to the Big East, Big Ten or SEC.

I seriously doubt that the NCAA would make his sit out a year after the transfer. Sex and college kids, what's new?

[Blue-Jay]

53. They're Mormons. What did you expect?

[fishwax]

55. it's true that the LDS church discourages interracial marriage, but BYU has also

kicked athletes off teams in the past for the same violation without an interracial component.

[Blue-Jay]

56. Oh. Well that's OK then.

[fishwax]

59. I don't think it's OK.

what do you mean, exactly? :shrug:

[Blue-Jay]

60. *sigh*

I usually make fun of people who are so unskilled at sarcasm that they need to use the sarcasm smiley. Upon re-reading my previous post, I realize that my sarcasm didn't really translate as well as I thought it would.

My bad.

[fishwax]

62. hehe -- my receptors could well be defective

I figured out after I initially posted that you were probably sarcastic, but it's good to know for sure. :hi:

[customerserviceguy]

63. When you go to a Mormon school

you have to expect them to shove their rules down your throat. Maybe Davies will get a chance to play for a school that isn't named after a man who had fifty-plus wives.

[Mudoria]

64. "Shove"? It's BYU and it's Mormon school..

The moron understood the rules before he went there. If he wanted to screw around in college he should have picked a party school.

[ReggieVeggie]

65. well THAT makes more sense

And goes to show Mormons are just as fucked up now as they ever were

[dimbear]

73. Say all you want to about Mormons, Utah is still a great place

to pull off exotic and ridiculous scams. It's like the nation's capital of strange goofy scams. People in Utah will believe anything whatsoever, and they work cheap.