Kucinich re Manning Treatment: "Is This Quantico or Abu Ghraib"

[sabrina 1]

Rep. Kucinich speaks out on the torture and abuse of Private First Class Bradley Manning.

Has any other elected official, Senator, Member of Congress, the CIC said anything about this shameful situation yet?



Dennis Kucinich: Is This Quantico or Abu Ghraib

Despite the fact that Manning has not been found guilty of any crime, his lawyer reports that he is in isolation 23 out of 24 hours every day, conditions which may violate his 8th Amendment protection from 'cruel and unusual' punishment. This treatment is in stark contrast to a presumption of innocence and raises questions of whether Pfc. Manning can be fit for trial.

My request to visit with Pfc. Manning must not be delayed further. Today we have new reports that Manning was stripped naked and left in his cell for seven hours. While refusing to explain the justification for the treatment, a marine spokesman confirmed the actions but claimed they were "not punitive."

Is this Quantico or Abu Ghraib? Officials have confirmed the "non-punitive" stripping of an American soldier who has not been found guilty of any crime. This "non-punitive" action would be considered a violation of the Army Field Manual if used in an interrogation overseas. The justification for and purpose of this action certainly raises questions of "cruel and unusual punishment," and could constitute a potential violation of international law.

This treatment is in violation of Common Article 111 of the Geneva Conventions. Is there any respect for the Rule of Law in this country anymore?

Common Article III:
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

So, when can we expect an investigation into these violations of our laws and principles and see those responsible removed their positions?



Thank you Rep. Kucinich for once again having the courage to do your job as a U.S. Representative.

I really hope others will join him.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. The craven silence from the rest of congress is deafening. K&R

[louslobbs]

28. Medicare thief/crook Scott down in Florida is voted in as a Governor

of one of our states, and this poor guy helps to expose government corruption and wrong doings and is being made to suffer at the hands of the military machine? And no other officials in power see a problem with this. It took Scott Walker in Wisconsin to wake up sleeping Americans about the Republicons/Koch brothers and their desire to destroy unions, what's it gonna take before someone helps this guy before the torture goes too far?
Lou

[sabrina 1]

30. Even Orwell didn't predict the extent to which things would

turned upside down in this country.

Heros turned into cowards/criminals (Kerry V Bush eg) while criminals are lauded as heros (Giuliani eg)

Manning IS a hero. But he won't get much help from any of our elected officials since all of them are either bought and paid for or they are too afraid of being labeled 'terrorist supporters'.

Kucinich has courage and doesn't seem to care what they say about him, only about the truth.

But he is very rare. Maybe him taking a stand will a few others the courage to do so also.

[louslobbs]

40. At this point,

we can only hope. Thank you for commenting
Lou

[Enthusiast]

89. Is it fascism yet?

I don't see any gas chambers.

[MNBrewer]

36. and the embrace of his mistreatment by significant portions of DU is disgusting

Ok, so maybe it's not "torture", but is it proper??? Is it justified?

[sabrina 1]

52. Couldn't agree more. It is very disturbing.

Sometimes, especially since the Bush years, when Bush supporters defended every crime, and now we see it on the left also, I finally understand how Germany happened. I never thought I'd see democrats or even decent republicans defend these crimes, or excuse them or even ignore them. But now I've seen it.

[liberation]

105. Who on the left are you seeing defending this exactly?

The closest to the left the Dems have are people like Kucinich, who is most definitively not condoning this sort of action. Ergo the article/thread.

[sabrina 1]

121. What I see is that only one member of Congress so far as I know

has condemned the treatment of Bradley Manning. I have not seen anyone from this Administration condemn this treatment either.

I HAVE seen many people online who are democrats and claim to be liberals, attempt to excuse these crimes.

If anyone other than Kucinich has condemned the treatment of Bradley Manning from the Dem Party I have not yet found their statements, nor have I yet found anything from the WH.

As MLK said: In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

[Enthusiast]

90. If it's okay with Obama, it's

okay with me. Three dimensional chess donchaknow?

[timtom]

94. Chess!

I love it. I loved it back then (2 years ago). I've been tempted to say as much so many times.

[RandomThoughts]

2. He stands up for many people, really do like his comments on many topics

Nice picture also :thumbsup:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

3. Once again -

he's out in front on an important issue. If only we had 99 more like him. :( He got my primary votes the last two elections, at this point he's getting my general vote in '12 as well.

[sabrina 1]

4. Unrecs for the rule of law?

There was a time when no person calling themselves a Democrat would have opposed anyone condemning the Bush Administration's abuse of the laws of this country.

I have searched to see what other elected Representative has even questioned the torture of Bradley Manning but so far, I have not found anyone other than Kucinich.

Hopefully that will change now that he has taken a stand on our behalf because it is not just Manning who is being abused, it is this country and by our own government.

Shameful! The world is watching.

[WinkyDink]

6. Time I asked: Where does one see the "Unrecs"?

[sabrina 1]

7. When an OP has received a certain # of recs

eg, maybe six of them, then when you look at the OP again and that number has been reduced to say four, that means someone has unred'd it.

There are probably other ways also ....

[MNBrewer]

37. Wasn't un-rec going away?

[Dappleganger]

108. It will when we change over to the new format.

Can't happen soon enough.

[Cleita]

5. It's the Spanish Inquisition as far as I'm concerned.

Torquemada was an expert in inflicting pain without damaging the body very much. It says nothing about what this does for his psyche though.

[Enthusiast]

91. It might not

be the Spanish Inquisition yet but just give them a few more years. Making torture acceptable to the American people is Bush's greatest crime. Bush should be hanged by the neck until dead.

[sabrina 1]

8. Amnesty International Condems Treatment of Bradley Manning:

Amnesty International condemns ‘inhumane’ treatment of Bradley Manning

The international human rights group Amnesty International has sent a letter to US Defence Secretary Robert Gates calling for the "inhumane" conditions of US army private Bradley Manning to be reviewed.

According to this article, he was placed on Suicide Watch against the wishes of the prison psychiatrist:

He was placed on suicide watch for two days last week against the wishes of the jail's psychiatrist, lawyer David E. Coombs told the The Washington Post.

So, they are lying to cover up their use of torture! I am shocked!

[ProSense]

9. What's Kucinich going to do about this?

Has he gone to see Manning? What about a Congressional hearing? Why can't a credible human rights organization or a few members of Congress visit Manning and put the endless hearsay and speculation to rest? Hell there were pictures of Abu Ghraib. Is this Abu Ghraib or the wretched treatment afforded prisoners in maximum security prisons? Is Kucinich saying they're one in the same? For all the attention this case has gotten, someone better look into the later and be serious about the entire process.

[EFerrari]

10. These remarks are a result of his ongoing attempt to see Manning.

[ProSense]

12. What's the problem?

He's in Virginia. Why the hell can't anyone with credibility just go see him?

The whole thing is bordering on ridiculous.

[EFerrari]

14. He submitted a request, it went to Gates and Gates handed it off

to the Army.

It is ridiculous and nauseating.

[Fuddnik]

41. Have you ever tried to visit someone in a prison?

Didn't think so.

[ProSense]

73. Pretty sure that

after assuming you know me, you're going to tell me how often you've seen the inside of a maximum security prison.

People on the Internets shouldn't assume to know people from reading text.

[sabrina 1]

11. Kucinich has requested that he be allowed in to see Manning.

Have you been following this story? Did you see what happened to his friend and others who went to see him?

This is a job for the CIC. His military is being accused of violating the Geneva Conventions.

I have not seen anything that shows the DOJ, eg, has any interest in these abuses of our laws.

So far, Kucinich is the only one actually speaking out about it.

What do you suggest he do other than demand he be allowed to visit the prison and speak to Manning?

And if a member of Congress is refused such a request, what is the next step?

[ProSense]

16. Get more members of Congress on board.

Demand a hearing. Where is the Progressive Caucus? Where are Senate Democrats? Write to the President. Do something.

"This is a job for the CIC. His military is being accused of violating the Geneva Conventions."

Until someone does something and provides real evidence, this is all posturing. Someone needs to do something.

[sabrina 1]

19. Posturing?

His treatment has been acknowledged by the military. His attorney has expressed concerns and asked for intervention.

What more evidence is needed than an admission by the military?

They have also lied apparently, claiming he needed to be on suicide watch. But the prison psychiatrist disagreed with that.

There is more than enough evidence to prompt hearings and an investigation by the DOJ.

But someone, other than Kucinich who so far appears to be the only one even asking questions, needs to get that investigation started.

Who do you suggest does this, since the silence from 99% of our elected representatives has been deafening?

And, btw, we HAVE written to officials, to the military, to the WH etc. And all communications have been ignored.

So, who is in charge of these matters when all avenues have been exhausted and expressed concerns ignorned?

[gateley]

23. I think ProSense has a good point - strength in numbers. Get more Congresspeople

and Senators on board and start making noise! Take it to the networks prime time, there have to be some reps back there who are willing to take this on, don't you think?

I'll contact my Congressman and the one who used to be, both good guys, and see if I get back more than a "thank you for contacting me, blah blah blah" response.

[sabrina 1]

25. Jerry Nadler would be someone to call. He is always very

up front about abiding by the Constitution and all of our laws.

I have not seen anything from him, although he may have said something.

And yes, I do agree that people need to call their Reps and get more people involved.

My Rep is a Repub, so hardly worth calling, although maybe just to let him know people are not happy about this.

[gateley]

75. Never heard of Jerry Nadler, but I'll call on Monday. Yeah, your rep won't care

if he's a repub - he probably knows that those who support Manning's rights aren't the ones who will be voting for him anyway. Maybe Bernie? Maybe Franken? I'm sure there are others in the Senate, too, who feel what's happening is wrong. Kerry?

I'm also going to contact Ed, Rachel, Dylan and Lawrence - we need more media attention on this.

I can't believe this is our country. I feel like I can't breathe. Outrageous what they did at Quantico to Jane and Manning's friend.

[sabrina 1]

76. Thank you. Jerry Nadler is from NY btw, and has always

taken a firm stand for protecting the Constitution regardless of how unpopular it may be. Bernie is a good suggestion. He has a twitter acct. maybe I'll post to that acct which is sometimes a better way to contact people.

I agree with you regarding what has happened to this country. I was watching that day as Jane and House were live-blogging what was going on as it happened. It was simply unbelievable and it was as if they do not care what we think of them.

I give enormous credit to people like Hamsher and House, Manning's friend, for the courage they have displayed in this matter and to Glenn Greenwald also who, we now know thanks to Anonymous, was being targeted in a secret smear campaign because of his relentless pursuit of the truth in the Wikileaks smear campaign, his efforts to set the record straight. Emails confiscated by Anonymous showed that Greenwald was considered a 'barrier to the success of the smear campaign against Wikileaks'.

This is scary, especially since we elected Democrats to end this kind of authoritarianism. So now, what do we do? Like you, sometimes I too feel so incredulous over what is going on I feel almost sick over it all.

[rhett o rick]

70. Pres Obama isnt letting Rep Kucinich visit. Why? nm

[gateley]

22. What happened to his friend and the others who went to see him? I read

what the friend said about Manning's treatment (infuriating and heartbreaking!) but I'm not aware of what happened after he made the statements.

When Biden was Senator in DE he, at the request of a serviceman's parents, was going to go with them to Dover when his body was flown in. They were almost not let into the base because Bushco was keeping it secret and hidden, as you recall. Biden went ballistic and threatened everything from calling the POTUS to taking the story to the networks on prime time, then they were finally let in. If Biden hadn't raised hell, they would have been sent on their way, and this is what Dennis's inability to access Manning reminds me of. Not that Dennis isn't taking this public, just that in the interest of secrecy and "homeland security'" or whatever the fuck, there is a lot going on under the radar that would horrify citizens if they knew.

I'm disgusted no one else is taking up this issue. I'm thinking, as usual, it's all politics -- don't want to look soft on "treason" because then the Republicans for SURE won't vote for me next time!" :grr: Kucinich consistently does the right thing. :headbang:

[sabrina 1]

27. Yes, I remember that about Biden.

But Biden will not speak out on behalf of Manning I'm afraid. He already has shown himself to have bought into the 'Wikileaks is a terrorist org.' propaganda that we now know who was responsible for, thanks to Anonymous' hacking of HBGary and all the revelations that have come out of that re the emails etc.

So, it will be up to members of Congress, most of whom are probably afraid of being called 'terrorist supporters'.

Regarding your question about his friends, here is a link that gives some info on what happened a couple of weeks ago. BREAKING: Military Harassing David House, Jane Hamsher for Visiting Bradley Manning


They were also harrassing others who were supporting him, having the FBI search them when they were flying etc., taking their computers. It is like the old Soviet Union and it is a disgrace.

[gateley]

69. In Biden's current position he can't speak out against anything except to

spread the Official View -- like when he said Mubarak wasn't a dictator, that's what everyone in the government was saying until they could get a handle on what was going on. :shrug: I'm hopeful that Biden is pleading Manning's case behind closed doors, but I'm assuming he feels what is happening to him is wrong. He very well may believe WikiLeaks is a terrorist org for all I know.

I've commented on how the government is behaving like the Soviet Union -- I was shocked when I heard they were asking for the Twitter info on those who were supporting Assange! I said 'how is this NOT like Nazi Germany? How is this NOT like the Soviet Union?" :grr:

And I've no doubt that politics/fear of being branded terrorist enablers is what is keeping so many silent. To a person, sometimes you wonder how these people can sleep at nights.

I've contacted my rep and my former rep (the former Rep, Jim McDermott, was nailed with an ethics violation for leaking an illegally recorded conversation between Gingrich, Boehner and others in 1997 -so he's proven he will do what he feels is right). I'm hopeful that one by one, some brave, ethical souls will step forward to support Dennis and call attention to the injustices being done to Manning.

Thanks for the link to the info about the harassment. Sometimes -- frequently -- the actions of our country make me sick to my stomach. :(

[sabrina 1]

77. Nice post, I agree with everything you say.

Not sure about Biden though. Many were disappointed that he said what he did about Wikileaks. I expected better from him, did not expect to see him spread what we now know was propaganda bought and paid for to try to silence and/or discredit Wikileaks before they leaked the Bank Info. Once Assange told the Forbes journalist that Wikileaks had information 'on a major U.S. Bank', they went after him, and we now know, hired several firms to smear him and sadly, we know that the DOJ was involved in the whole thing.

Iow, everything said in the U.S. media about Wikileaks was a lie that was part of what is being called an illegal 'psyops' operation on the American people by HBGary and others, including the Law Firm recommended by the DOJ. Biden should have know better, assuming he did not know that about the planned smear campaign. And if he did, then I am finished with him.

[Enthusiast]

92. "Kucinich consistently does the right thing."

That is why he is often condemned by rabid Obama supporters. Kucinich isn't happy with Bush policies being continued under a Democratic administration.

[99th_Monkey]

24. Federal Marshalls? The FBI? Who will "take on" the US military industrial shadow complex

... it's almost like the US Military is saying to the world, including Congress, "Nya Nya, we are going to torture anyone we want. What are you (and what army) going to do about it?"

[sabrina 1]

29. Yes, it does seem like that, and why wouldn't they?

There is no one in this country to stop them. No one.

I remember when we wanted Bush impeached and were told to wait until Dems were in the majority.

That happened in 2006 and we were told to wait until they had a majority in both houses and the WH.

That happened in 2008.

Now the goalposts have been moved again and we are told 'we are not going to look back, (AT WAR CRIMES??) we are moving forward'!

And suddenly all investigations into Bush gang's lies, torture etc. seem to have gone away. What happened to Conyers' and Leahy's committees?

I had a feeling in 2006 that something bad was happening re the Dems position on war crimes, they pushed back so hard against any talk of impeachment.

But I was hoping I was wrong.

[sabrina 1]

15. Also, Amnesty Int. has condemned this treatment

Many other humanitarian organizations have also condemned his treatment. From the article in the OP:

Psychologists for Social Responsibility (PsySR) has also sent a letter to the defense secretary, asking him to "rectify the inhumane, harmful, and counterproductive treatment" of the Army private.

The PsySR letter noted that the UN Committee Against Torture has expressed concerns about the use of solitary confinement in US prisons, and noted that, unlike supermax prisoners, Manning has not been convicted of any crime.

But the Commander in Chief has remained silent, despite the many organizations and legal expersts who have expressed concerns about this case.

[ProSense]

18. I get the condemnations, but

has anyone gone to see him and confirm this is happening? Is it happening just to Manning? When people found out about Abu Ghraib, action was taken. What are these groups doing beside condemning the treatment?

[sabrina 1]

20. People have gone to see him and have been refused admission.

Regulations demand that anyone wishing to see him be placed on an 'approved list'. His only visitor on that list, other than his attorney, was recently refused admission with no explanation airc.

Confirmation, as I already stated, has come from the military itself. What other confirmation is needed? They are not denying what they are doing, clearly our standards are so low now, that they don't expect any repercussions and it appears, so far, that they are correct.

As for something being done about Abu Ghraib, nothing was done about those most responsible, they were given 'medals of freedom'.

If you are talking about the few grunts who were used to make it seem as if something was done, that was actually a disgrace since they were taking orders from way up the chain of command, as high as the AG and the VP, the SOD.

However, maybe Spain will now hold at least some of those torturers accountable, and in the process of their prosecutions, more may be revealed about those from whom they were taking orders.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ReggieVeggie]

33. what is OBAMA going to do about it ?!?!?!?

for fucks sake

[ProSense]

60. Isn't the claim that Obama is doing this?

What do you think he's going to do about it?

He's not the one making the claim.

[sabrina 1]

64. He is the CIC of the military. IF laws are being violated by the

military, he has the power to do something about it, more power than anyone else in the country.

He, like Manning, took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution of the U.S. That means upholding the laws of the land. Manning tried to do that. But what has this administration done about the numerous and now well-documented crimes perpetrated by the U.S. military against untold numbers of human beings?

Maybe behind the scenes he is working on doing something to put a stop to the crimes, but publicly he has actually done the opposite. He himself has claimed the right to order the assassination of a U.S. citizen without trial or conviction. Even Bush did not have the guts to admit to doing that publicly.

Either we actually support the Constitution and all the treaties signed which once ratified, are part of the laws of this land or we don't.

So far, it's looking like our leaders from both parties don't. So, now it's up to the people. It won't be easy, but we are getting help from outside this country where people who were victims of the crimes are not going to let them be forgotten.

Spain gave the U.S. until March of this year to investigate and prosecute our own war criminals. That didn't happen, so now the case brought before the Spanish court against the Bush Six torturer suspects, is going forward, with much pressure from human rights groups around the world.

Is this what we want? To have to have other nations do what we should be doing? What we were told would happen if only we would elect Democrats?

[ProSense]

65. "IF laws are being violated by the military, he has the power to do something about it"

Yes, "if"? Kucinich is making the claim so let me reiterate my original point and followup points:

Has he gone to see Manning? (I understand that he has been denied a visit) What about a Congressional hearing? Why can't a credible human rights organization or a few members of Congress visit Manning and put the endless hearsay and speculation to rest? Hell there were pictures of Abu Ghraib. Is this Abu Ghraib or the wretched treatment afforded prisoners in maximum security prisons? Is Kucinich saying they're one in the same? For all the attention this case has gotten, someone better look into the later and be serious about the entire process.

Get more members of Congress on board.

Demand a hearing. Where is the Progressive Caucus? Where are Senate Democrats? Write to the President. Do something.

"This is a job for the CIC. His military is being accused of violating the Geneva Conventions."

Until someone does something and provides real evidence, this is all posturing. Someone needs to do something.

-end-

Does anyone know what the President knows or doesn't know? It's highly unlikely that he's going to publicly address a prisoner and active case.

[sabrina 1]

66. Every question you ask, are the same questions that have been

asked for nearly seven months now. Why have there not been answers? Why has Congress NOT responded to the thousands of letters from ordinary people, not just Americans, asking them to do something about it?

Credible Human Rights organizations HAVE asked to be allowed to see him.

Why are they hiding him, preventing people from seeing him if there is nothing to hide?

You are asking the wrong people the questions.

People who did manage to see him have since been harrassed by the FBI, had their computers confiscated, etc. etc. Why is this happening? Why is Congress NOT interested?

You are speaking as if this is the first time any of this has been reported. It is NOT.

Everything you suggest HAS BEEN DONE! Letters to Congress, phone calls, requests to visit him etc. etc. Calls and letters to the WH. Petitions signed. All have been ignored.

As for the president, of course he knows what is going on with Manning, it has been very public and people HAVE written to the WH about it.

And if he questions that the allegations are wrong, he has the means more than anyone else to find out what is true and what is not.

He would be respected around the world if he were to simply make a statement saying that the allegations he has heard are very disturbing to him as CIC and he that he intends to look into it. The only people who would not like that would the far right torture-supporting Bushbots from the fringes of society. Why would anyone worry about them?

[ProSense]

71. "Everything you suggest HAS BEEN DONE! " No

You said it yourself:

"Credible Human Rights organizations HAVE asked to be allowed to see him.

Why are they hiding him, preventing people from seeing him if there is nothing to hide?"

When did Congress and all these organizations become helpless?

I said:

Has he gone to see Manning? (I understand that he has been denied a visit) What about a Congressional hearing? Why can't a credible human rights organization or a few members of Congress visit Manning and put the endless hearsay and speculation to rest? Hell there were pictures of Abu Ghraib. Is this Abu Ghraib or the wretched treatment afforded prisoners in maximum security prisons? Is Kucinich saying they're one in the same? For all the attention this case has gotten, someone better look into the later and be serious about the entire process.

Get more members of Congress on board.

Demand a hearing. Where is the Progressive Caucus? Where are Senate Democrats? Write to the President. Do something.

None of this has happened.

[sabrina 1]

82. How do you force members of Congress who have already

been alerted to the problem, to do anything about it if they don't want to?

You're not getting it. They HAVE been asked, by ordinary citizens and by human rights organizations to do something about it.

What do you suggest be done now? We can't hold a gun to their heads, so short of that, how do you make a government that would rather just torture people if they feel like it including their own soldiers without any lectures and they don't want to have to deal with whining citizens complaining about silly laws and morals and Geneva Conventions etc.??

They clearly do not want to do anything about it because they AGREE with torture! So, now what?

[hulka38]

99. A question that is conspicuously absent

among all these questions being asked but a question that is clearly at the on the minds of some here is how the hell do I deflect criticism from the President, the chief of the executive branch and CIC, on this matter.

Some other questions I haven't seen yet: Do I claim that the President isn't ultimately responsible for alleged human rights violations at Quantico ? Do I suggest that he's held completely in the dark wrt a very high profile prisoner like Manning? How do I suggest that the citizens/journalists/human rights organizations/famous politicians and fellow air force1 passengers don't have sufficient credibility to warrant some attention on this matter from the President or even get a quantum of acknowledgment that he's gotten the message that there may be a problem there?

[sabrina 1]

106. It's tricky to try to defend the CIC when the military is accused of

wrong-doing. But Bush supporters did it by denying that there was anything wrong going on, and that the torture at Abu Ghraib was just a few young people's pranks and was pretty much standard procedure. No amount of evidence to the contrary ever moved them from that position. Some of them actually defended the torture itself since all those 'ragheads were terrorists' anyhow.

Worked for them, no one other than, ironically, the very same 'young people just playing games' were ever held accountable for the brutal torture at Abu Ghraib.

[rhett o rick]

74. This is happening on Pres Obama's watch. He could stop it if he wanted. nm

[bvar22]

13. Dennis Kucinich, out in front again.

With very few exceptions, the rest of the "New Democrat" Centrist Party should be ashamed.




"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


"By their works you will know them."

[sabrina 1]

21. The only way we can turn this country around is to focus

on electing more Reps like Kucinich and forget about the White House. If Congress was filled with people like Kucinich, this would be a different country.

I know I for one, don't much care about the presidential election coming up, but I care a great deal about the Congressional and Senate elections.

If we have a Congress that is working for the people, it won't matter who is president anyhow. Congress is where the power is and most of them have been bought by Big Business. We would have to work very hard to overcome the money being poured in to congressional races, but I think we could begin to turn that around by spending OUR money on progressive candidates. The presidential candidates got our money last time, but now we know, they don't need it. Good progressives are not funded by the Dem. Party, THEY are the ones who need our money.

[TheKentuckian]

31. Got to have the White House too. The bureaucracy controls too much, then their is the military,

and of course the veto. Well, unless you think a veto proof liberal Congress is possible in this age of gerrymandering and small state dictator status.

An administration also has great latitude in how they enforce the law. As we have seen through the 70's, 80's, much of the 90's, and again 06-08. A strong oppositional White House will crush a Congress.

You have to take it all.

[sabrina 1]

35. You have a point. But this WH has crushed a Democratic

Congress on issues like the PO eg. We did have enough of a majority that should have made it easy for a strong president to get what he wanted from Congress. Had the situation been reversed, with the same numbers, a Republican president would not have claiming he 'didn't have the votes'.

What is needed is a president who wants what we want. I'm not sure that is the case with this president.

[Hubert Flottz]

17. Those are just a few bad apples...

Playing a few frat pranks.

[highplainsdem]

26. K&R

[Vinca]

32. Manning hasn't been charged with anything, has he?

And he's still on U.S. soil . . . isn't he? I don't see how any of this can possibly be legal. On the other hand, considering Bushco was given a pass I suppose they can torture Americans wherever and whenever they want.

[sabrina 1]

38. I think he has been charged. In fact right before this happened

22 new charges were made against him this week. One of them carried the death penalty.

It's interesting that right after those charges were filed, this happened.

He has been charged, but not tried or convicted.

I believe it is illegal, but who is going to stop them?

[druidity33]

95. Arraigned?

I think Military "justice" must be different, because in an actual court of Law he would've been arraigned and had an opportunity to post bail. Of course people can't easily donate to his defense fund, because our government keeps threatening companies who have provided that service to Manning and WikiLeaks.

As for ProSense's assertion that we must force Congress to act in this matter somehow... i am at a loss. What other forms of redress do we have? I've written to my legislators (longhand), signed petitions, called the WH line, etc. I've also been following the case for as long as Glenn Greenwald has... why no one has linked to his blog or FDL among this discussion, i don't know. For those who want excellent background... read these:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/03/05/a-narrative-chronology-of-bradley-mannings-alleged-leaks/

Greenwald was really the first to bring the Manning matter up, which explains the HB Gary fiasco a bit. Searching his blog through the past 7 or 8 months gets you dozens of spot on blog posts about Manning and the treatment of whistleblowers by the Obama admin. Of course, there are tons of Greenwald and FDL haters here at DU, so i'm sure some one will have a snarky remark for me...

:eyes:

[sabrina 1]

116. I have followed Greenwald and FDL on this issue and both

have been exceptional in their coverage. Thank you for posting those links for anyone who has not.

As for Congress, and Pro-sense's suggestions, as I pointed out to him/her, we have done all of that and received not even any acknowledgement from them.

Greenwald has proven himself to be a true journalist over the past year, unwilling to change his convictions that there is a concept still that no one is above the law even when the party you support, are the ones violating the law.

Thanks for your efforts, I know how frustrating it is to get no response from our elected officials on a matter as serious as this.

And yes, since we've tried all the suggestions made here, what else can be done? Who is willing to stand up for the Constitution other than Kucinich?

[Fuddnik]

44. When you're a criminal state, it doesn't matter.

Quote from Noam Chomsky on Democracy Now last week.



We are indeed a criminal state.

[Enthusiast]

93. No question about it.

If we are not in a 'criminal state' where are the Wall Street prosecutions for fraud? Where are the investigations and prosecutions for war crimes by the previous administration?

[fascisthunter]

45. in america today, they don't have to charge anyone

it is the point many authoritarian brainwashed do not understand. This is a slippery slope.

[msanthrope]

128. He was charged after his arrest, in July of 2010. His charge sheet is on his website. nt

[DeSwiss]

34. POLICE STATE. - K&R n/t

[bengalherder]

39. What?

No one on this thread claiming he sold his human rights away when he signed army docs?

I've always wondered what part of 'inalienable' is so hard to understand.

[fascisthunter]

43. You could say that if you didn't give a damn

or if you believe he deserves what he is getting. You can refer to any law or particular example, but it all comes down to being a human. Your choice... he made his. He'll be remembered a hero.... dummies do not realize they are making the man into a martyr because the truth is above all man made laws.

[julian09]

47. Doesn't the military serve the civillian government

We aren't a military dictatorship, the US representatives trump military authority. They are trying to have him commit suicide, then say we told you so. The RED CROSS, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL should also observe conditions, he hasn't even had a trial yet. His representative from his own state should have a surprise visit and demand a explanation and private meeting with Manning.:wtf:

[sabrina 1]

48. Absolutely right, the more they abuse him, the more

they enhance HIS image and destroy their own. And they are reminding people of Abu Ghraib and there was no justice for those horrific crimes against humanity. And how this is the result of not holding war criminals accountable, they just keep doing it, until one day someone finally stops them.

It will have to come from outside this country. The American people are asleep, or too abused for too long to reven realize how abusive their government is.

[Solly Mack]

42. K&R

[Better Believe It]

46. K & R

[slipslidingaway]

49. knr nt

[steve2470]

50. k&r nt

[slay]

51. Show um what a REAL Dem looks like Dennis!

If we had more Dems like Dennis - hell more PEOPLE like Dennis - this would be a better world. K&R.

[Mojeoux]

61. +100%

[lovuian]

53. this really undermines America's case against Wikileaks

and their credibility It makes him a martyr

[sabrina 1]

81. Yes, it does exactly that.

They are proving that he was right to try to expose the war crimes he witnessed.

It's interesting that these new abuses only began AFTER the 22 new charges were filed against him.

It's as though they can't punish him enough. And why would someone feel that way? A completely neutral person or persons would simply let the judicial process take place and treat the detainee according to the law.

But a guilty person, or entity, would feel the need to lash out. And that is what they are doing. It is THEY who appear to be guilty.

[Modern_Matthew]

55. One of the few Dems deserving of the Presidency. nt

[JDPriestly]

56. Thank you, Rep. Kucinich.

[Canuckistanian]

57. You know things are bad...

...when American politicians start quoting the Geneva Convention about the way Americans treat their own prisoners.

Something is very, very wrong here.

[Amonester]

58. Brain-less bullies everywhere.

That's, in part, what is wrong there.

Why is there only Dennis Kucinich awake on this pathetic case of abuse is very telling of the degree of total corruption of the rest.

[Canuckistanian]

59. Brainless bullies have bosses

Who are supposed to know better. Apparently, common sense (and legality) have eluded them.

[thanks_imjustlurking]

62. First thought, from head to fingers - is there a difference? nt

[ReggieVeggie]

63. An American soldier, a citizen, tortured by his own country

what has he done that he deserves this?

from Glenn Greenwald:

Let's review Manning's detention over the last nine straight months: 23-hour/day solitary confinement; barred even from exercising in his cell; one hour total outside his cell per day where he's allowed to walk around in circles in a room alone while shackled, and is returned to his cell the minute he stops walking; forced to respond to guards' inquiries literally every 5 minutes, all day, everyday; and awakened at night each time he is curled up in the corner of his bed or otherwise outside the guards' full view. Is there anyone who doubts that these measures -- and especially this prolonged forced nudity -- are punitive and designed to further erode his mental health, physical health and will?

<snip>

As former Army officer James Joyner (and emphatic critic of WikiLeaks and Manning) writes:

Obama promised to close Gitmo because he was embarrassed that we were doing this kind of thing to accused terrorists. But he's allowing it to happen to an American soldier under his command?


More: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/05/manning

[sabrina 1]

83. Thank you for the link.

I think most decent people know this is torture. And no decent person expects the U.S. government to stop it anymore. It would be like expecting the old Soviet Union to stop torturing people. That's what we have become in the eyes of the world and in reality.

[Tsiyu]

67. K & R

Thank you, Rep. Kucinich


:kick:

[defendandprotect]

68. KR -- Evidently, Kucinich is the only Dem aware of Manning Isolation/Torture -- !!

[myrna minx]

72. K&R n/t

[micraphone]

78. Been sayin' it for years

DK for POTUS.

The only one with a real conscience.

[micraphone]

79. Please excuse me I am not in the US...

... but who, or what, can challenge this?

BM is obviously being tortured, in any standard under any penal system, so who can stop this? Congress? Senate? POTUS? Who????

Sorry not in the USA.

Mikey

*Edit: spelling*

[sabrina 1]

80. There is a chain of command.

But as we learned from Abu Ghraib, many of those high up in that chain were complicit in the crimes so it would have done no good for anyone to expect them to stop any torture.

It seems that is the case here also.

The president is the Commander in Chief of the armed forces. He could do something about it. He could order it to stop.

Congress could call for hearings also. But as you can see, how likely is that to happen when so far only one man has the courage to even raise the subject.

This country is lost. I used to think it was because of Bush, but I was wrong. It is simply lost and we are on our own. There is no rule of law when it comes to those in charge.

Manning is a hero and maybe one day he will be viewed that way. But in the current climate heros are villains and villains are heros and there is no one doing anything about it.

[lonestarnot]

84. I see that his request to get in to see Manning have been ignored.

WTF!

[sabrina 1]

86. They are arrogant. They know they can do what they want to

Manning because the Government doesn't prosecute torturers. And the government launched a smear campaign against Wikileaks and Manning. A campaign we now know was being bought and paid for. Thank you Anonymous.

I think we're at the point where we need outside intervention.

The American people are not outraged enough, many will support this torture because they are victims of the U.S. Corporate Media.

This OP eg, was unrec'd by six people. Six democrats who support the torture of a U.S. soldier.

Kucinich is not one of the respected, wealthy, bought and paid for members of Congress who could be depended on to go to the prison and then tell the world what a luxury hotel it was. He would tell the truth and that is not acceptable in the U.S. today.

[lonestarnot]

87. Understand.

[upi402]

85. Isn't there something they swear to do when they are elected?

Or is it just whore for cash now and then call it a day?
They don't try to change campaign finance do they?

Or even election/ballot reform.

[Enthusiast]

88. It's only torture when Bush does it.

:patriot: :applause: :headbang:

[_ed_]

96. How do Obama supporters rationalize this?

If you are still an Obama supporter, what would you have said if Bush did this? If you care more about Barack Obama than you do issues like this, I think you need to re-evaluate your political stances. If your opinion of torture changes based upon who is President, then you simply have no real convictions and will blow in the breeze for any politician that has a 'D' next to their name.

Really - how can anyone still defend him?

[sabrina 1]

115. Good question, and most democrats here are not trying to

defend him, thankfully. But sadly it appears that there are those who will try to defend anything, if their team is doing it.

This is how we got into the state we are in. The PTBs know that there are only two teams. When the red team is in power committing war crimes, their fans will defend them. And when the blue team is in power, THEIR fans will defend them.

This system has worked well to prevent any consensus on the part of the American people as to what kind of country they want to live in. Both sides, successfully divided by politics, will defend crimes no matter how egregious and the criminals never have to face a united front against their crimes.

When enough people on both sides put principles ahead of politics, we can change things. I may be being too optimistic, but I think this is beginning to happen finally. At least I hope so.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karmadillo]

98. Remeber the lesser of two evils. If we had a Republican president, nothing would be done about this.

nt

[Charleston Chew]

100. Countdown-Fmr. FBI agent Coleen Rowley discusses Bradley Manning Torture

COUNTDOWN w/ Keith Olbermann
December 15, 2010

Keith Olbermann talks with FBI whistle-blower Colleen Rowley about the details of Bradley Mannings incarceration, which were reported by Glenn Greenwald Wednesday, Dec 15, 2010

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x560169

[Charleston Chew]

101. Dylan Ratigan, Sam Seder, Ari Berman discuss PFC Bradley Manning 12/20/10

December 20, 2010 MSNBC

Is PFC Bradley Manning Being Held In Torture Like Conditions To Extract A Conspiracy Confession?

Dylan Ratigan’s mega-panel, radio host Sam Seder The Nation's Ari Berman and Washington Examiner columnist Tim Carney discuss why PFC Bradley Manning should not be treated like a member of Al Qaeda and how Bernie Sanders is different from President Obama.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x560172

[Charleston Chew]

102. Pfc. Bradley Manning Charged w/ Capitol Offense

TheAlyonaShow on Mar 4, 2011

The US Army has announced they're filing twenty-two additional charges against Bradley Manning, who is accused of leaking thousands of documents to WikiLeaks. And the most serious charge is "aiding the enemy," which is a capital offense but who exactly is the enemy that Manning is accused of aiding? Is Wikileaks now an enemy of the US? Jane Hamsher founder of Firedoglake.com discusses.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x559654

[sabrina 1]

104. I hope she runs for Congress again. She is a good

person and I'm happy to see her speak about this case.

[Desertrose]

103. Dennis has been working on this for awhile now. Thank god for his voice!

There are too many silent voices that should be very loud on this subject.

Torturing is ALWAYS wrong.

[Casandia]

107. I am only one person...

but I am going to call the white house and my senators and representatives every day with a simple statement about Manning, such as "Please let Rep. Kucinich seen him." Then, I am going to post my conversation every day on facebook and twitter. I also plan to buy the info cards in bulk, and place them in public places, such as restrooms of restaurants, bulletin boards of grocery stores, etc. It is not much, but My heart breaks to see what is happening.

[sabrina 1]

110. Thank you. I will call some members of Congress that I thik

might be worth calling also. And the WH.

I didn't know about the information cards. That does sound like a good idea. Where do you get them?


If everyone did something as you are planning to do, it would help so don't discount your efforts. Just not accepting what is going on, spreading the word is something. Even my Repub family members do not approve of torture. Not all Repubs are freepers.

Thanks again for trying.

[Casandia]

117. Where to buy cards, shirts, etc.

http://www.bradleymanning.org/

This website explains it all.

[sabrina 1]

120. Thank you! n/t

[swilton]

109. Do I need to ask the obvious?

Where is our humanity - and where is the rest of our so-called Democratic Party....Dennis has my vote in a primary against Obama....If Dennis doesn't run, it will be someone else.

[sallysense]

111. A letter to Officials and the President.

(A letter sent to Officials and the President.)

Dear Sir,

My duty as an American citizen, who cares deeply about our country and people, is to speak up for the sake of our country and its principles, which are for truth and justness and human decency.

My conscience is speaking on behalf of Private 1st Class Bradley E. Manning, a soldier being held in inhumane conditions in the United States Marine Corps Quantico Brig in Virgina. The reports of the conditions of his confinement are un-American. They resemble the conditions found in repressed countries using inhumane treatment, those same conditions that United States leaders are quick to call horrible and deplorable.

Our country needs the truth for its own betterment. Intelligence agencies which also consist of Wall Street lawyers and corporate heads, and whose influences steer towards manipulating the playing field to where their own best interests come first, have already wreaked havoc upon the state of our country.

We suffer the loss of our soldiers' lives and health in wars where their enemies are the same fighters that our intelligence agency encouraged and funded years ago, being formed overseas to fight another country in an earlier era.

Just as Church and State do not mix well, neither does the Military and Wall Street Corporatism. And no matter how hard a higher echelon of ties, tries to hide those enmeshments, it still shows. We don't have to look far to see the effects it has had.

Our country's lifetime has gotten to the point where its health now needs the truth for its future well-being. Nothing else will be able to continue to replace that. See the facts for yourself. There are those of high level status who remain in denial, believing that they can ultimately manipulate situations into some sort of silver lining, while failing to realize that their own denial does our country no good.

Our country needs its people's conscientiousness. It needs its people exposing the truth. Our country does not deserve to become known as the quick cover-up capital of the world. Nor does it deserve to be influenced into being another inhumane treatment facilitator either. For those ways and means to become a policy of our country's officials, just shows the weakness of conscience, which falls by following the methods of repressed lesser countries, rather than leading the way through the strength of truth and fairness.

No human deserves inhumane treatment. And no one in our country who exposes the truth deserves inhumane treatment. And our military does not deserve inhumane treatment amongst one another.

Truth is not our country's enemy. Falsehoods may consider the truth to be an enemy, but our country and its principles don't. Our country's principles need the truth. For without the truth, our country's principles will cease to be.

All around the world there are humans being persecuted for exposing the truth. When there is a human in the Quantico Brig in Virginia being persecuted for exposing the truth, it just shows how well lies have taken hold. And our country and military and citizens don't deserve that.

You Sir, are in a position to intervene and stop the unfair and inhumane treatment of Pvt. Manning, and righten that unconstitutional dire situation. You Sir, are in a position to show our country, and the rest of world, that the United States Military is not like the military of repressed lesser countries.

You Sir, are in a position to let our country and the world see, that you are on the side of truth and decency.

Please intervene to stop the unfair and inhumane treatment of Private 1st Class Bradley E. Manning.

Sincerely,

Sally Kline

[sallysense]

112. latest incident and status of pfc manning as of march 5 2011...

(latest incident and status of bradley manning as of march 5 2011)...

pfc bradley manning will now be naked 7 hours every day ongoing...

according to david coombs blog (pfc manning's defense lawyer)... the lawyer said that he learned about the circumstances from both manning and the brig forensic psychiatrist...

(pentagon press secretary geoff morrell has said that pfc manning has been a model detainee)...

(the brig forensic psychiatrists have continually said that there's no mental health justification for a poi order for pfc manning)...

pfc manning had requested to be removed from maximum custody and poi...

pfc manning had been told that his request to be removed from maximum custody and poi (prevention of injury) had been denied by quantico commander col. daniel choike...

pvt manning then asked the brig operations officer...what he (manning) needed to do to be downgraded from maximum custody and poi (prevention of injury) orders...

he was told that there was nothing he could do to be downgraded... that the brig considers him a risk of self-harm...

he then said that was absurd... and then he sarcastically remarked that if he wanted to harm himself... he could conceivably do it with the elastic waistband in his shorts or his flip flops...

and then without consulting any brig mental health staff... chief warrent officer denise barnes used his sarcastic remark as a reason to increase the restrictions on him... under the pretense of concern that he's a suicide risk...

but pvt manning was not put on the suicide watch list because it would have needed a mental health staff recommendation which the brig commander did not have...

(but... the brig commander does not need a mental health staff recommendation in order to increase the poi)...

the brig psychiatrist assessed pvt manning for this incident and said he was low-risk... and only needed out-patient follow-up...

the brig psychiatrist said that pfc manning's remark about the waistband was not caused by a psychiatric condition...

but as stated earlier... the brig commander doesn't need a recommendation in order to increase the poi (prevention of injury)... which is just what the commander did...

it's a punishing act by the commander... as there's no mental health justification for it...

[sallysense]

113. concerning pfc bradley manning...

the inhumane treatment pfc manning is undergoing now isn't allowed overseas according to the army field manual...

(he was arrested in late may 2010... held in confinement in kuwait til late july... and since then in the brig at quantico)...

his ability to exercise... communicate... and sleep are severely restricted... (his 1 hour that's not in isolation... includes exercise of walking around a room in chains... he's not allowed any basic exercise in his cell)...

and now they take away all his clothes for 7 hours and he must stand at attention naked in the morning... it's indecent human treatment...

they put a longstanding prevention of injury (poi) order on him...

but the psychologist said (and psychological tests indicated) that he didn't need it...

and poi orders are normally short-term orders that are lifted when psychologist and psychological testing indicate that it's no longer necessary...

and he's been a model prisoner... no violence... no misbehavior...

he's also under a regimen of authority-administered anti-depressant drugs... (type?... dosage?)...

he's hasn't seen any newspapers...

he gets 1 hour of tv from 7 pm to 8 pm... with whatever tv channels they make available to him... (he's not allowed to watch international news... and the local news isn't on at that time)...

...

he saw the evidence of criminal activites being carried out throughout the middle east that involved our country...

he wanted the public to know what is really going on over there... so we'd know the facts... and we could make decisions according to the facts of what's actually going on... instead of just being fed whatever stories they want to feed us and want us to believe...

are you aware of the collateral murder video?... it's the video he forwarded for the public to see and be informed of what's actually going on... and was arrested for doing that...

it's footage showing a u.s. apache helicopter firing on civilians in new baghdad in 2007...

(the civilians had returned no fire)...

11 people were killed... among them were a news journalist for reuters... his driver... and 2 children in a van...

the u.s. soldiers had kept on asking... over and over again... for permission to open fire... they were finally granted permission...

and then the 2 soldiers encouraged each other and made jokes about the dying and dead civilians...

(and this is just one instance of many illicit activities going on over there)...

which brings to mind... look at all the soldiers that suffer mental problems and they keep being re-deployed over there at the military's insistance...

and look at all the soldiers suffering in one way or another... and so many killed... and so many civilians too... and for the sake of what?... it's so sad...

(and our country is spending around $2 billion a week in just afghanistan... and that's taxpayers' money)...

[sabrina 1]

119. Shameful that the real crimes revealed by Wikileaks, the

slaughter of civilians and two journailsts by the U.S. helicopter, has not even been raised in Congress. Even though two of the soldiers who were there have come forward to say how wrong it was.

Where is the investigation? Was anyone even reprimanded for yet another war crime?

Thank you for the reminder of what caused Bradley Manning to do what he did. A lot of people would like to ignore the facts surrounding this case.

[sallysense]

123. yes... we need the truth...

hiya sabrina 1... (am not aware of any charges brought against the pilots... but also want to mention that servicemen say that this is the way they've been trained... and it was 2 reuters journalists among those killed)... and also... there are so many folks who don't even know what's going on... we need the truth to be made known... the best of wishes'n'ways'n'todays for the sake of fair'n'square and the truth and caring!... :)

[sabrina 1]

114. Sally, that is a beautifully written letter.

I hope they read it and feel ashamed of their silence.

[Casandia]

118. Beautiful

May I use this?

[sallysense]

122. the truth needs to be made known...

hiya sabrina 1 and casandia... yes indeed... the truth needs to be made known... and yes to your question... the best of wishes'n'ways'n'todays for the sake of fair'n'square and the truth and caring!... :)

[Vattel]

124. Awesome thread sabrina

Are there any protests planned in DC? I would love to participate.

[sabrina 1]

125. I haven't heard of any yet.. But there are organizations that are

putting together petitions and are trying to get more attention for this abhorrent behavior on the part of the military. I get emails from several of them. Will definitely post an OP if there is a protest anywhere.

Thanks, Vattel, the least we can do is keep the spotlight on them. The more they act like Abu Ghraib criminals, the more they enhance Manning's reputation.

[sallysense]

126. march 20th rally for bradley manning at quantico virginia...

hiya vattel and sabrina 1... on sunday march 20th there's a rally for brad at quantico virginia...

(see... http://www.bradleymanning.org )...

(and on the preceding day sat march 19th... there's a resist the war machine rally in lafayette park washington dc)...

the best of wishes'n'ways'n'todays to each'n'all!... :)

[sabrina 1]

127. Thank you for that info. I cannot be there but will spread the word.

I hope it gets enough notice so that it is a huge rally ....