Lost in the supermarket

[lapislzi]

...or, "Heartbreak in Hannaford's."

This thread's going to ramble a bit. I apologize in advance.

I had a bunch of errands to run yesterday, including a supermarket run. I usually avoid the local Hannaford's (a New England based chain) because they're non-union. BUT. I had other stops to make in the same shopping center. BUT. They have the best produce, good prices, and the best local/organic food section around. The choices we make. I'm not proud that I compromised a principle to convenience, or in the interest of saving a few dollars. But there you are.

I'm at the checkout with my fairly sizable order--and of course, I eschew the self-checkouts for the human ones. I have my reusable bags. Now, this is New York. Everyone expects to bag their own groceries. It's not even up for discussion. An older lady (60s?) with an apron and a name badge takes my bags and starts bagging my groceries--very efficiently, I might add. She had a sunny and pleasant demeanor, despite that fact that it was a chilly, rainy morning and the store was busy. We made a little chitchat as the kid scanned my groceries.

Then, another kid (20s?), presumably the head cashier or store manager (I'd seen him at another register keying in an override, or some such), steps over. "What time did you clock in, today, Pat?" he asked the bagging lady. "Ten," she replied. He wagged a finger at her. "It was 10:17, Pat." She began apologizing profusely. "What are we going to do about this, Pat?" he asked. "I'll make it up," she said, "you know, I've been staying later some nights." "That's part of the job," he said.

I had to blink back tears. Hard. As I made a note of the name on his badge. Hannaford's will be getting a letter.

But that doesn't make me feel any better, because this is symptomatic of so much more.

How our older people have to take menial jobs to make ends meet.
How callous our disregard for our fellow workers. It was "young store manager who will move on in a year or so" against "lady who needs a job." No sense of solidarity. No sense of "we're all in this together."
How somehow it's OK to humiliate a fellow worker in front of the public.
How easy it was to put aside a principle because I was in a hurry.

And those strawberries? By the time I got them home, those foreign strawberries tasted like straw. I lost my appetite.

Lesson learned? Hannaford's isn't going to suffer for my lack of patronage. In fact, maybe I need to shop there more often, so they'll continue to keep the baggers on the payroll. I don't know anymore. Every choice affects every other choice, and it's all I can do not to throw my hands in the air and say, "the hell with it all!"

If you've read this far, thanks.

[postulater]

1. That is sick!

It's the profit-making model that drives that culture.

I just posted an example of a convenience store company in Wisconsin that has what sounds like a much friendlier model.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x569942

What a contrast!

[w8liftinglady]

2. Your experience is identical to one I have had many times in Henderson County,Texas

many near-retirement or formerly retired individuals out working HARD minimum-wage jobs...to help support the kids,grandkids....and great-grandkids who have moved back in.Multiple generations making minimum wage.

It is a shame.

I do have a suggestion...

do like I do.
Write the store manager... or corporate office, and give Pat blessings...how helpful and kind she was,what a great job she did,how SHE is the reason you come to that facility.

It works.It got raises for the deli crew at Tom Thumb where I live...

[Angry Dragon]

3. You should have reamed him a new one right there

He had no business attacking an employee in front of customers

[DCKit]

13. +1 The only thing they understand is public shaming.

I'd have gone off, starting with "WTF is wrong with you? Who taught you that it's OK to talk to people like that?"

[malaise]

25. 100% correct

:applause:

[lapislzi]

31. I considered it.

However, I didn't want to draw more attention to Pat, who was obviously embarrassed. Hence the letter. And my warm "thank you" to her.

Choices.

[pipi_k]

104. Well, it needn't have been obvious, really...

a very polite, "Excuse me, sir, may I speak to you for a moment?", take him aside and a quiet, "I think you are a rude little scumbag on a power trip and I should do the same thing to you that you just did to Pat but I have too much class, and I'm going to report your inexcusable rudeness to Corporate office" would have sufficed, I think...

;)

[Dorian Gray]

229. Perfect....

[lapislzi]

242. You see, pipi_k, this is why I love you

You always say what I'm *thinking.* :hi:

[pipi_k]

246. Uh, oh...

Maybe you should be afraid....


:7

[Enthusiast]

235. I'm with you! nt

[blueamy66]

80. Yep

I would have let the asshole have it....and good

[fishwax]

135. I think a letter (perhaps more than one) to his higher-ups will be as or more effective

but both approaches have their advantage :)

[annabanana]

243. Do both.. .The customer at the check-out is a powerful figure.

That weasly second lieutenant would have had to just stand there and take it.

[CTyankee]

4. I'm just lucky that my most convenient supermarket is a union shop.

I sympathize as I would be in the same hell you are in if I were in your place.

By all means, write your letter. At the very least, the young manager was being completely unprofessional and inappropriate in dressing down an employee in front of a customer. That is just not done. If this happens again, you could pull the young guy over and privately tell him that and that you are writing a complaint letter. That might stop him right there and make his reconsider his behavior. But, by all means, complain to HIS manager both about his doing this in public and also in being disrespectful of this woman's basic dignity.

I have also experienced this kind of behavior on the part of a younger boss who thought my job meant she owned me 24/7. Unfortunately, too many people "take" the insults because they have no other choice. I finally had to map out my strategy and eventually get another job and leave, at which time in my "exit interview" with HER boss, I revealed that her behavior caused me to seek another job. She left the organization within about a year...

[niyad]

34. my local markets are both union shops, thankfully. that does not stop me from calling corporate

whenever management gets out of line (which, sadly, is pretty often)

[spooky3]

214. Agreed. And, if the employee is working late, that's not "part of the job"

for non-exempt employees under FLSA. If she's working past 40 hours per week (if the time doesn't make up for her coming in late), she may be owed an overtime pay premium.

If she was chronically late, he's of course right to address this, but never in front of customers or co-workers.

[seabeyond]

5. we dont know what is going on. what if she is consistently late? what if she relieves someone else

causing that person to not get off? what if that person has to pick kid up from day care or something, make it to another job?

we really dont know what is happening with this employee, do we?

[The Magistrate]

7. Management, Ma'am, Is Best Presumed Guilty....

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. But, you know, only dirty leftist liberals think like that.

Having a low opinion of the righteous rugged individualist John Galts of the world? Oh, no, that would make Nordic Baby Jesus cry.

[The Magistrate]

114. A Baby's Tears, Sir, Are Mother's Milk To Me....

To be on the left is to know two solid things. One, that there is an irreducible conflict between people who pay wages and people who recieve them, and two, that you are on the side of those who receive wages.

[redwitch]

269. Mr. Magistrate Sir, I love you.

signed,
Lefty redwitch

[seabeyond]

272. lol

that is so cute

[lapislzi]

277. Sir, you are the bomb.

The bee's knees, the cat's pajamas.

Respectfully,
LLL

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. It never makes it okay to speak with an employee like that in front of customers.

:shrug:

If she is consistently late, the proper thing to do would be a one on one in the office or break room, not a public humiliation. :(

[seabeyond]

11. yes... and it really was pretty gentle. what are we going to do with you.

doesnt sound like an attack, humiliation or anything. just a ..... you didnt get here at the time scheduled.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. It actually sounded like the manager was speaking to a three year old.

While I agree with you that, if the woman is late, she shouldn't get a pass, good management leaves employee business behind the scenes. Sorry, as a customer, I would have said something. I have before. This manager needs a training class on how to effectively manage.

[seabeyond]

23. look, pulling her off reg, remembering and bringing into office after shift... that makes it a big

deal. a casual comment like that, .... makes it less a big deal, just watch it. many managers talk that way to NOT offend, cause people are so defensive, kinda like many on this thread. manager cant win, regardless of how he phrases. he dare to say something about employee being late, and HE is the bad guy. wtf? sounds like he tried to make it as nonoffensive as he could which is bullshit in my book.

[JanMichael]

38. A younger man "wagging his finger" at an older lady

is non-offensive in your book? Who the hell wrote your book, Ayn Rand?

[seabeyond]

42. lets see... this is a job. not an age issue. employer, employee. if he behaved different

because of age then it would be an issue.

[ms liberty]

121. NO. What he did was wrong, no matter what the specific circumstances...

It is unprofessional to dress down any employee in public in front of anyone - fellow employees, customers, delivery people, whatever. At the very least, the employee is left embarassed, humiliated, angry and resentful, even if they know they were in the wrong. The witnessing party, if an employee, feels intimidated and resentful. If the witnessing party is a customer or service vendor, they are left feeling embarassed or uncomfortable, or outraged as described in the OP. Someone who reams their employees in public is only interested in retaining their illusory feelings of power and control over others - they're not interested in getting the employee to perform their job properly.

You praise in public, and reprimand in private. I'm speaking from over 30 years of customer service experience. I've been the employee and the manager, and I've seen things done both ways. One way will get your employees to do their job better, work effectively and respect the managers...and the other way won't.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

133. You are correct..........

Its basic management: DO NOT REPRIMAND YOUR EMPLOYEES IN PUBLIC. Not only does it demotivate and shame the employee, it also discourages some customers from returning to your store.

[Dorian Gray]

231. Exactly.

[Brigid]

189. Replies like this . . .

really, really make me miss the DUzy awards.

[Enthusiast]

236. DAMN RIGHT! nt

[aquart]

39. NOT in front of a customer. EVER.

[pipi_k]

111. [phone]

Never never never.


One of the things I learned from being a manager myself...


Praise in public, criticize in private.


always.

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. She was bagging, not on the register. Management can win. This

man chose not to. The situation was not so dire that it couldn't have waited until before or after her shift. I was in management. I won all the time. Defending him is bullshit.

[lapislzi]

43. SB, you're missing the point

Maybe he meant it to be casual, but she was deeply embarrassed, and when you are dealing with customers, and the public, it's always bad policy to discipline employees in front of your bread and butter.

He didn't even have to take her into the office. Could have just called her aside and spoken quietly. Then I wouldn't have known a thing and I wouldn't be writing this thread--and I'd be alone with my mild case of guilt over shopping non-union.

[seabeyond]

45. she may have been embarrassed because she lied. if she said, sorry, i was late

will do better. that would be it. but no big deal.

i dont know, maybe the deeply embarrassed was saying she was on time. i jsut dont see it as a big deal on any of the three sides. employee... i would own it. management, just a casual comment, do better.... done. customer... oh, you be bad and a giggle.

being bad about being late, i haev had this and wasnt anything. i uderstand people are bothered on this thread. i just dont see it as a big deal.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

52. Obviously the OP thought it was very demeaning and he was there...

you weren't there. The OP heard the tone of voice as well.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

67. I must call, how do we say.....

Bullshit! I was a front line, review writing, hiring and firing manager/supervisor for over 20 years. When one adult is responsible for another adults 'behavior' (work performance), there is a right and wrong way to communicate. This is not the right way.
This type of thing should NOT take place in front of a customer or co-workers. Where is the managers sense of boundaries?
Would you like being spoken to like that in front of others?
:shrug:

[seabeyond]

72. having had issues with being on time. i have had exactly this done, with those words

albiet.... i didn't lie and say i was on time when i wasn't. but i have had management a couple time say exactly that.... what are we going to do with you....

it was a much more mellow approach than the time i was called into office about being late, that is for sure.

that is all

i hear what you are saying

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Like trying to explain to a blind-from-birth person what's the difference between red and green.

[Horse with no Name]

105. Condescending. Very. n/t

[Zoeisright]

56. No, that isn't gentle.

Try, just TRY, to put yourself in that woman's shoes. That was inappropriate to do in front of customers. That kind of public humiliation has profound effects.

[seabeyond]

60. not only have i tried, but i have eperienced exactly that. with exactly those words....

i know how it feels. what was meant from it. and also, it was my fault for being late. though i never said i was on time, when i was late. i was honest... cause after all, i was pretty sure management already knew i was late.

wasnt end of world. i worked on being on time.

the time i was called into office for being consistently late.... that was much more humiliating, embarrassing and getting ass reemed. i still knew it was my fault, not management that i was 5 to 10 minutes late every morning. and after that dress down i made sure i was 5 minutes early every morning.

[Dorian Gray]

232. So

calling you into the office was an effective way to stop your consistent late arrivals.

[CTyankee]

It doesn't excuse the inappropriate dressing down of an employee in front of a customer.

The kid needs training. There are ways for management to deal with tardiness. If the employee is fine everywhere else in her work, I would think this is a relatively easy problem to deal with privately.

Doing this in front of a customer is NEVER Ok.

[seabeyond]

94. i jsut dont think it was much of a dressing down. and yes.... inappropriate works

i dont think it is a HUGE deal. that is all.

yet.... you would think i am promoting the lashing of an employee.

[CTyankee]

106. If I was that lady I would suffer enormous embarrassment from the kid's remark.

You don't know how other people, perhaps in an older age range than yourself, and given the circumstance with a kid saying this to an older person when it could all be handled so easily.

We don't always know the consequences of our words. What might roll off the back of one person, might cause pain to another.

Why even bother to justify the possibility of causing suffering, when it can be avoided...:shrug:

[seabeyond]

112. we dont even know if it caused pain. we dont know anything really

that was my only point. we dont know if she was uncomfortable cause she lied. we dont know if she was happy he said as he did, cause made it gentle.

that is my point with the whole thing

in the scheme of things, we dont know

[CTyankee]

153. Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but if we "don't know" why not err on the

side of politeness? to me, this is just a case of "a word to the wise"...

[seabeyond]

154. i would be fine with that. but

that was all i was doing was saying.... maybe it is not exactly as seemed. maybe he isnt a creepy little bastard or whatever he is called. the way poster proceeded was to suggest that maybe it is not all that it seemed.

in my personal experience, i found (empathy and all i can go by) when called on it on the floor not in nearly the trouble when called into the office.

maybe it progressed to what it did, because she lied. if she had said, sorry boss for being late, that was the end.

[whathehell]

240. No, it's not...During my working life the "rule" was that you "correct" an employee

in PRIVATE, not in front of the public or other employees.

This kid violated that rule. I'd be sure your letter contained

the mention of this "unprofessional" behavior.

[ScreamingMeemie]

261. I am hopeful that you are responding to the wrong post.

For you have just reiterated what I said. :hi:

[whathehell]

288. I believe I was just offering confirmation...

sort of a "right on" or an "Amen", if you will:hi:

[nuxvomica]

9. It should be none of our business

It should not have been done in public. That is the wrong here.

[Dappleganger]

54. Quite true, and it was highly unprofessional but an older manager

would probably have known that (usually, but not always). That's one of the prices which is paid when the older folks are eschewed for the younger ones in management--very few people skills.

[ret5hd]

10. what difference does ANY of that make? he was publicly humiliating her!

that is what offices and conference rooms are for. the entire purpose of putting a particular individual in charge of others is that person can effectively LEAD. anyone can BERATE!

[seabeyond]

14. i think it done pretty gently. i dont see "humiliation, berate". maybe no

maybe not a big deal shouldnt do in front of customers.... the few words he said.

i have had employeers say exactly that to me when i was late. when i was late to the point of discipline, i was called into office. i just dont see it as a big deal.

[Cirque du So-What]

20. It was still DONE IN PUBLIC...for at least the third iteration!

Why in pluperfect HELL did this 'gentle' admonition need to be delivered in front of even a single customer anyway? The store has offices for that purpose, yunno.

Your turn to deliver another heapin' helping of corporate apologia.

[seabeyond]

27. he has all of ten seconds to let her know ... dont be late. pull off reg, take into office

now we are talking about a bigger infraction than what manager obviously thought it was. pulling her into office.... making a big deal of it. a comment, much littler deal.

whatever

[Cirque du So-What]

41. Yeah, whatever...

I'll conduct a poll and see how people on DU feel about being subjected to public admonitions of employees by members of management. You're welcome to contribute.

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. One, she was bagging, not on the register. Two, I assume that her shift

will end at some point and he can speak to her then. I cannot see where you think that this needed to be addressed right in that moment, in front of customers.

This was an example of bad management, and/or power tripping, at its best.

[Angry Dragon]

24. 'i was called into office'

That is the total point

The manager has every right to discipline the employee
and talk to her but NOT IN FRONT OF THE CUSTOMERS

[seabeyond]

29. whatever. people want to make a big deal about this, roll eyes at management

call him names, gal can feel justified being late and boss a big old baddy.....

[Bunny]

44. Look, I AM management and I would never reprimand

an employee, no matter how gently, in front of anyone else. It's simply not done, and if I was the one being reprimanded, I would much rather be called into the office than treated like a three year old in front of customers. That manager needs more seasoning and I hope the OP's letter allows his boss to arrange that.

[seabeyond]

48. i understand. i just dont see it as a big deal. may have rolled eyes at him

if i was a customer and then giggled with employee.... but i dont think it an OUTRAGE

[shimmergal]

124. Giggling with the employee isn't

going to help her much.

In fact, by reprimanding her in front of a customer, he was (consciously or not) using the customer's presence to back him up. That's dirty pool at best, as well as bad management.

seabeyond, you have a lot of good observations, but you've flubbed this one.

[seabeyond]

126. meh... it happens. "(you've flubbed tis one.)". you should have seen outrage

when i used the word moral... once.

a comment like that isn't huge to me. i have been consistently late, (my one bad as employee) and have had this said. i really wasn't even thinking about public when making my initial comment cause it just wasn't a huge set down, imo...

i draw most of my stuff from personal experience. i am in a grocery store a couple times or more a week a block from my house. i know everyone there. there have been times experiencing this .... and i have reacted in this manner, which diffuses.

i also draw from times i am listening to employees bitch as they work and thinking that is not professional, and i defuse those. people talk to me, all over the place. i am pulling from all those experiences

i just dont think it was huge.....

[hfojvt]

199. you cannot get in the way of three minutes of hate

you will just get trampled.

Clearly, there is only one way to see it - my way/our way. We now have the embodiment of all evil in this young manager and he needs to spend at least an hour on the pillory with we, the self-righteous and perfect, heaping our derision upon him. Don't even think about trying to take him a drink of water.

[seabeyond]

200. ya

kinda like that. lol.

[niyad]

62. you are making a big deal of supporting an arrogant little punk with no people skills

the basic fact is, HE HAD NO BUSINESS DOING THIS IN FRONT OF CUSTOMERS. he could have waited 5 minutes until she was done bagging and spoken to her out of earshot of ANYONE, including co-workers. the fact that you are so adamant in your defense of the indefensible is surprising.

[seabeyond]

65. so, cause a number of people are responding to what i say, and i am answering their post, i am makin

a big deal?

lordy

i am not "supporting an arrogant little punk" (not that you know that is what he is.... i merely have an opinion

[pipi_k]

125. It's not about "being justified being late"!

It's about having enough respect for someone as a human being to not publicly humiliate him/her, whatever the infraction was, or was not.

While it's true we don't know whether lateness is a chronic problem for her, we also don't know, if she is chronically late, whether there's a valid reason for it, like a very sick family member at home.

Some people won't talk about things like that. She could be living in a heartbreaking situation and never say a word, keeping the pain to herself.

She may not have "justification" for being late, but maybe there's a reason that creepy little asshole manager doesn't know about that only makes the whole situation worse.

I had a similar thing happen to me when I was a teenager. My parents fought terribly all the time. I never knew if they might kill each other when they fought or if I would find them dead when I got home from school. They kept me up at night listening to them argue. My father physically abused my mother a few times.

I was failing 8th grade English. My teacher chose to mention that fact in front of the class. She told me I should "shape up or ship out". I did not tell anyone what was going on at home so nobody ever knew. So she added more pain...public humiliation...to what was already going on at home.

We should always treat others with respect just in case they're in pain in their private lives.

[seabeyond]

127. and we dont know that he is a creepy little asshole manager either....

maybe it is because i was chronically late and for no other reason, but that i was.... and have had this happen, that i dont see it as a big deal. maybe because i was pulled into office once for being late, and that had a much larger impact on me than the casual comment from management on the floor, that i dont see it as harsh.

i dont know.

[pipi_k]

151. IMO, people who humiliate others in public

are creepy little assholes.

If I'm your manager and I speak to you once in private, and it doesn't work, you get another chance.


Whereupon I call you into my office and respectfully ask if there is some actual problem preventing your timely arrival at work. Communication.

If the answer is "no", and it happens again, then you get a written warning.

If it happens a third time, you get quietly fired.


There is never justification for public humiliation.

[seabeyond]

152. that is how we operated. so tell me... he asks, what time. she says sorry boss. late.

would that wagging of finger or any other conversation happen?

but instead, she lied and got a finger wagging. and still not saying, right boss, sorry... continued with excuse of staying late.

does she have no part in this? no responsibility. it is all her being a victim and he being a creepy little... whatever.

now you get, that what you laid out, is how we always preceded so this is not sticking up for the creepy little whatever, but a discussion.

[pipi_k]

158. None of it would have happened

had he been a decent person and a good manager and kept it private.

Some people really do have a warped concept of time. Maybe she actually believed she got there on time. Who knows.


I don't care if she was three hours late. He should have/could have waited for some other time to confront her. On her break, in private. At the end of her shift, in private. By note attached to her time card...in a sealed envelope.


But for his indefensible action, none of that particular situation would have happened.

He handled it wrongly, and I hope someone ends up reporting him to the Corporate office. I certainly would if I saw an employee being treated that way.

[seabeyond]

160. oh, come one. that is so stretchin it, she clocks in and such warped concept of time

not lying.

we allow so much grace, and who knows for this employee that was late then lied.

this is the part, i cannot do.

i can agree with what everyone is saying, .... but not this. not all kinds of who know's when benefitting employee and harsh judgment and persecution for manager with no grace.

if it had been the owner doing it to the manager.... we would stick up for manager and flay owner.

manager telling boss, i asked, she lied, so had to say something but made lite with .... what are we going to do with you

owner

you are fired.

we would be all over owner.

[pipi_k]

197. You are assuming she lied

when the issue might very well be a distorted concept of time.

We all know, of course, that time is relative, right?

One hour spent doing something unpleasant can seem twice as long as one hour doing something fun.

So no...it's not at all a stretch to imagine someone having a whole different concept of time.

Time, which, BTW, doesn't exist except as an invention of mankind.

Show an actual photo of a suspect, for example, to five different people, and you're likely to get five different answers as to what the guy looked like. Are they all lying? No. They're seeing the photo through their own filters.


And in the end...even if that woman did lie about the time she got there...

It was totally lowlife of that manager to call her out in public for being late.

Either that, or he needs more training.

[underseasurveyor]

215. +++++++++++++1

I can relate to much of your experience.
Thanks for saying it :hug:

[hugo_from_TN]

274. Maybe she should show a little respect for the manager if she wants some in return.

Lying to your managers face is not showing much respect. I would say the manager is justified in firing her, but instead he gave her a rather gentle reprimand.

[niyad]

285. you just don't get it, do you? one NEVER reprimands an employee in front of customers, other

employees, ANYONE.

I do not understand why that simple concept is so hard for some people to grasp.

[Gormy Cuss]

55. It is a big deal. Good management would never allow this admonishment in front of the customers.

For one, it can make customers uncomfortable because it's interrupting their otherwise pleasant shopping experience by forcing them to share a supervisory action best done in a more private way. The customer will either identify with the manager and understand from experience that it's a bad management practice, or the customer will identify with the employee and empathize with her.

Another reason to avoid doing this in public is that there's no telling when an employee will object loudly and turn it into a scene, which is another opportunity to make customers feel uncomfortable.

Making customers feel uncomfortable translates into making them feel unwelcome and they can then choose to shop elsewhere.

These are just two of the management reasons for not disciplining in front of the customer when the issue has nothing to do with the customer transaction.

[TicketyBoo]

131. Absolutely. n/t

[Dappleganger]

58. Doing it in public is unprofessional.

Period. Whether or not YOU can handle it is irrelevant.

[seabeyond]

63. yes. and still, not an OUTRAGE, or degrading, humiliating, belittling

imo

not a big deal.

again, imo

[Dappleganger]

64. As you can tell, you stand alone on this one.

[seabeyond]

66. yes. i can tell i stand alone. me, all by myself. that is ok. i dont have to be a group

thinker. i am comfortable seeing things differently than others. what makes the world go around..... it is all good.

[ScreamingMeemie]

69. All I ask is that you, please, never consider a job in management and/or

human resources. :)

[Dappleganger]

71. Agreed.

[seabeyond]

74. not only management, but owner. now, without any knowledge, tell me how you feel sorry

for employees, how bad i am, and anything else you can come up with.

[ScreamingMeemie]

78. Nope. Remember, I'm not the outraged one, you are. With that I will say...

...with knowledge (unfortunately you have given us all we need to know about how you would manage your real-or possibly imaginary- business), I hope your "employees" know that they have other options than working for someone who hasn't studied effective management skills.

[seabeyond]

83. wait... you have all the knowledge you need? this is it? lol. and no, you arent going to say it,

as you say it.

and are you suggesting i am outraged, cause really.... the whole point of my posts, is not a huge deal. so where is the outrage.

this has become a joke

[ScreamingMeemie]

89. Yes this has become a joke.

Yes, you have told me all I need to know about your (lack of) management skills.

Good luck with your "business". :)


edited-because I do like this poster typically.

[seabeyond]

95. i could also say, that it says something if you think this is all it takes....

to draw conclusions.... about anything. which was my point with my initial post. our lack of info and knowledge. yet conclusions drawn

[ScreamingMeemie]

101. It was? Your initial post was in defense of the indefensible.

And then, as many eloquently do, you pulled out the "I have experience/I do own a business" card as proof that you know what you are talking about. This always makes me doubt the intent of the poster. Sorry, it's a flaw. The fun part is, is that I agree with you about the woman being late and being spoken to about it...just not in front of customers. That is management 101. Any business owner or manager worth his salt knows this. To defend the indefensible is to cram a size 14 shoe in a size 5 mouth.

Now, let's get back to playing last word. I've got to go to work soon. Not a manager, but, no worries...I'll be on time. :P

[seabeyond]

110. i dont think it is a big deal. that is all i have said. i have agreed

a nuber of times, it is not good to do in front of customer.... makes them uncomfortable. and still, i dont think it is a huge deal.

nothing more, nothing less

ig you must have the last word, i am fine with that, you have it on other subthreads deciding all of who i am from so very little. but when you make this into something i have not said, i feel a responsibility to correct it.

[Dappleganger]

70. Wow.

Being a rebel just for the sake of being a rebel.

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

75. what? it does not matter what i say, you will be outraged. you point out i am alone

i acknowledge the truth in your story. you are right, i am alone

and your response

wow.....lol

[ScreamingMeemie]

82. The only outrage I have seen has come from you, sb.

[seabeyond]

88. ah sm... really? nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

90. Really nt.

[JanMichael]

107. Yes, really. You seem to be the only one who thinks that belittling a person

and talking to the elderly as if they are silly children is somehow just fine.

[seabeyond]

113. i have had management say this to me.... and i was younger. men tend to talk to women this way

because they dont want to hurt feelings, but they have to say something.

i just dont see it the way others do. i would apologizing for not seeing it the way everyone else does.... but there really isnt a reson to apologize. jsut a .... i dont see it the same.

[Tsiyu]

157. It's funny you say that

You are one person who seems to be irritated when women are not taken as fully human.

For example, in threads about human sexuality, you would probably agree that women's sexuality has been "dismiissed" as inconsequential.

You do not accept the "boys will be boys" mantra.

Yet here you say "men tend to talk to women this way."

Why do men "tend to talk to women this way."

As an older woman, it IS demeaning to have a younger person condescend, especially in front of customers. not to mention that this type of management behavior is a put-off to the customer. I have managed many employees. I never had to reprimand in front of a guest or client or customer. It is not done by a professional.

A decent manager alots enough time per shift to touch base with employees.


And if I ever saw one of my sons talk to an older employee in this manner, I would embarrass his ass right then and there.

[seabeyond]

161. do you see anywhere i am justifying the behavior. i am making a statement what men tend to do

and why. in any of those post you talk about, i would look at the whole, even calling it out, which is what i am doing here. putting in perspective. as i do in the other places.

if you are an employee, and have an employer, you cannot expect to be talk to in a manner because of age. this is a whole other issue than what we are talking in this subthread. but because an employer is younger than an employee i see no reason for the elder to be treated differently, simply because they are older. i would expect there to be a none age issue here.

[Tsiyu]

169. You don't talk to ANYONE in this manner

most especially to an older person.

many customers will identify with the older worker and will resent the workplace, as this poster has said happened in her case. you allot time for talking to workers when you are NOT in front of the customer

You have your own ideas and bless you for standing against the fierce winds



good luck, sailor :patriot:

[seabeyond]

170. lol

i am going back outside to work in the yard, lol

[Tsiyu]

172. There's a plan

yanking weeds is a zen-like activity as long as you have good garden gloves.


:hi:

[Dappleganger]

123. No, it is just your lack of empathy and common sense is flabbergasting.

It gave me a "wow" moment. So now, I will stop being amazed and just accept this part of you as the real thing.

I feel very sad for you that you lack the desire, at least, to be empathetic to the worker who was spoken down to in public by a manager.

[seabeyond]

128. empathy and commen sense? you challenge that i am the only one. i acknowledge i am the only one

it is what it is

and then you tell me that has something to do with empathy and commen sense.

no

it is me acknowledging that yes.... on this, i am the only one.

[kelly1mm]

178. You are not alone - I agree with your position which I understand as

there is/was a better way for the manager to handle this situation but in the big picture of workplace happenings this was relatively no big deal.

[seabeyond]

181. lol, about it.

i got hammered.

[kelly1mm]

188. I know you got hammered - I read the whole thread. That is why I wanted

to let you know there was at least one person who understood your position.

Have a great rest of the day!

[seabeyond]

195. thank you. nt

[pipi_k]

156. One person's mild (and laughable) rebuke...

could be another person's total humiliation.

I know.

As a child, all anyone had to do was look at me the wrong way and I would feel like a complete and worthless piece of shit.

If I didn't cry outwardly, I cried inside.

I'm not saying we all need to walk around on eggshells for fear of offending others, but geez, there are things that, in a polite and civilized society, are not done. Like calling someone out in public.

Whether it's for lateness, or even for using the wrong fork at a snazzy banquet.

Civilized people always try their best to respect the feelings of others.

[seabeyond]

165. no one is that good. you cannot have that expectation of everyone as you ask

for special consideration from everyone.

maybe by lightening it up to what are we going to do with you.... he was trying to do exactly what you said.

another

who knows.

[pipi_k]

198. Still not the point

He should not have mentioned it AT ALL in public.

I don't care how much he tried to sugarcoat it.

It was still criticism.

You do not criticize in public.


Oh, and the statement "What are we going to do with you?"...

It's something one would use when rebuking a five year old. Not a grown woman.

[MrsBrady]

16. um.... he could have asked her to step aside

after she was done checking the groceries.

Calling people out in front of your customers is rude

-- and clearly can upset customers as per the OP.

[seabeyond]

17. i jsut dont see it as a big deal. what are we going ot do with you, sounds like a gentle way of

saying, dont be late. waitressing, working in public, i have had bosses do it to me and i didnt feel like it was a biggy. come to work on time. then get on with life

[JanMichael]

21. We do know that he acted unprofessionally in front of a customer; we also

know that gender/age stereotypical conflicts are very real in this society.

[JitterbugPerfume]

28. the point is

he did not need to humiliate her by talking to her like that in front of the public. It is called respect.

[seabeyond]

30. if she is humiliated for being spoken to about being late, awfully sensitive. are you serious...nt

[niyad]

the fact remains, he had no business talking to her like that in front of a customer, EVER

[seabeyond]

33. dont think it was a big deal. if he had asked and she said, was late, sorry

that would be the en. she lied... too. but hey, wtf

[Cirque du So-What]

73. I started a poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x570271

Come, comment, cast your vote. You wouldn't want all that corporate apologia to go to waste, wouldya?

[seabeyond]

76. cool. like i give a shit, lol. nt

[Cirque du So-What]

81. That's obvious to the most casual of observers

BTW, for someone who doesn't give a shit, you have certainly been flagellating the deceased equine in THIS thread.

[ScreamingMeemie]

84. +eleventy billion. No outrage there.

[seabeyond]

91. uh.... people are posting on my posts. i answer. should i ignore people?

should i ignore you and not respond. i am ready to stop.... anytime.... but i think it is almost rude to ignore. sorry

[Cirque du So-What]

97. 'It's almost rude to ignore...' but it's OK for a boss to berate an employee in public. Got it.

This is getting better by the minute :popcorn:

Oh, and BTW...my poll has 29 votes saying that it's rude & unprofessional, while not one vote saying it's alright...not that you give a shit or anything :eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x570271

Err...make that *30* votes to ZERO.

[fascisthunter]

118. make it 50

[seabeyond]

120. i never argued it was not rude nor professional. further, i stated it was unprofessional.

you get that, right? all these many posts you point the finger at me, that i have made. a number of times i have said it inappropriate the manager did this. you get that.... and made that clear on your poll, since you have seemed to base the whole poll thread on my posts. being honest and with all this integrity you imply i lack, you surely hold strong in integrity.

[lapislzi]

259. SB, we may disagree about this

but I admire your efforts to keep it civil. I will continue to read and respond to your posts.

(See what I mean about respect?)

[seabeyond]

260. i do appreciate you saying that.

it is something i have noted myself. regardless of wrapping mind around and thinking about, i cannot be in the same place as you all. i just dont see it the same way.

i have found the interaction interesting, though.

thanks

[lapislzi]

262. It's OK!

We all drag our own baggage around with us wherever we go. My perception may well have been colored by a similar humiliation (way more severe than the one I described in my OP) I received at the hands of a manager who hated my guts for no apparent reason (OK, I accidentally walked in on her and the very married store manager getting it on in the stockroom). I was 22 and fresh out of college and I didn't know whether to cry, run away, or call her out for her behavior. So I hung my head in shame as she reamed me a new one in front of customers and fellow workers. And yes, my transgression WAS real, and stupid. I deserved to be reprimanded, but not that way.

Peace to you.

[seabeyond]

271. that is exactly the conclusion i have come to. from my own experiences

that is why i look at it as i do.

having been on the floor as employee many years, in management where i took care of employee, customer and owners, and as an owner.... i am seeing it from different angles. i have never had a "bad" boss so i dont have anger towards them. i recognized there are employees that are not always innocent or the victim.

i wonder (since i really dont see this as a chewing out) (and since we really dont know anything about this employee) if sending letters is going to be a good thing for her. there are things she did that may lead a person to believe she is not employee of the month. (again, we dont know). and maybe that little bet was allowing her to keep her job. but with letters calling attention to the situation, they decide that her less then ideal employment is not worth it and they seriously call her on infractions.

forget about the in front of customer issue. if she had said sorry boss, i was late, that probably would have been the end. she lied about time posted in. that says something. to bring up working late, justifying being late for shift says something. there is a reason to be on time. 20 minutes may not seem like much, but when busy, or relieving someone from the shift.... that 20 minutes can seem like a very long time as anger and expectation escalate. working late has nothing to do with being to work on time.

when i posted the original post, i was thinking of the time (at a store i have been using for years and know everyone) a woman who is a bagger. she has a mental handicap of some sort. took years to get to the hello stage. she is odd. lives in my neighborhood so she eventually started interacting with me. chatted with her thru her preg. listened to her for a couple years talking about joy with son. one day, she was so pissed off walking me to car, telling me she is working over time. they wont let her out. she needs to pick up her kid from daycare. she was desperate. near tears, maybe even had some. and along the way i was helping to mellow her out, go talk to manager (she hadnt, just kept it in) and letting her see different sides. i didnt want her to lose job. with the anger and how she was talking to me, she could have if it was somebody else.

but i understood her need to get her child.

that is what being late does to other employees and that is why i approached in the manner i did.

[lapislzi]

279. Heck, yes.

I'm a department manager. My department is consistently on time or early. They're just great that way. But, a neighboring department with whom we have to interact on a daily basis, tends to leave early, not let anyone know when they're lunching or (worse) working from home. It leaves my peeps up in the air, because we lose production time when we can't move the work through.

So, a little word in THAT department manager's ear (door closed) corrected the situation. Now they buzz me their comings and goings so I can schedule my peeps accordingly. No muss, no fuss, problem solved.

But, if I had blazed into their area and said (even jokingly), "hey, you slackers, why can't I ever find you when I need you?" the outcome would have been very different.

I understand kid issues. Boy, do I understand them. And I understand the need for people to be on time for work. Others depend on it. But, as my ex-boss used to say, "there's ways and ways." (This, after I was chewed out by a customer for an offhand remark that I probably shouldn't have made. But it was a cultural thing, and I was a cultural clunkard at the time).

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

116. so, because i dont care about a poll, i dont care about human race. because i care about a teacher

that has a 16 yr old come onto him, and give her responsibility for her own sexuality adn choices, .... i dont care about the human race. i know why you are mad. because of another thread, where as a 16 yr old, if you want to fuck a teacher, regardless of a prison term he would have to live, you should not have to own it. lol

really. do you want to bring that thread into this.

i think me standing up for all the male teachers that have 16 yr olds wanting to fuck them at any cost, is caring about the human race.

[hfojvt]

201. my vote is that 'berate' is kind of a strong word for what happened here.

[PassingFair]

211. If the customer was made to feel uncomfortable about this..then the manager was wrong.

The customer felt so uncomfortable that he/she feels compelled
to write a letter of complaint...

What can't you "get" about that?

[lapislzi]

32. No, we don't.

But whatever the circumstances, in what universe is it OK to chew out a subordinate IN PUBLIC? I've had to discipline people. You bring them into your office, close the door and quietly explain the transgression, and the redress you expect. There is no excuse to publicly humiliate someone, ever.

[seabeyond]

35. what are we going to do with you pat.... is hardly a "chew out". nt

[handmade34]

50. worse

it is demeaning and disrespectful... empathy is crucial to a healthy society and there is a serious lack of it these days

[WinkyDink]

249. Are you joking? Asking her check-in time, correcting her, telling her her overtime meant nothing?

IN FRONT OF A G-D CUSTOMER??

[Brickbat]

68. Any one of those issues is best handled in private. There was no reason to do it when she was on

the job.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. So.

It's not that one subset of issues.

There's consistency.

I'm surprised.

Not.

[fascisthunter]

79. yup

the attitude is the problem here, but yes, there is a consistent pattern.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

93. There always is.

The ones you think are one-issue-only... turn out not being so.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

100. seriously. nt

[WinkyDink]

250. Interesting, agreeing with a deleted post.

[seabeyond]

254. i dont know, you think the post might have gotten deleted AFTER i responded? nt

[Horse with no Name]

103. It is ALWAYS inappropriate for the customer to see an employee be reprimanded

gently or otherwise.

Even with what you consider as being gentle, the customer was able to know that she was a "substandard" employee which is humiliating and demeaning to the employee.

It is wrong to treat your employees this way. IF he was such a dick that he had to humiliate her at the checkstand, he could have at least waited until she didn't have a customer. And yes, that does occur at least once a day or he could have just waited until she went on break and asked to speak with her surrounding that.

[pipi_k]

109. Whatever she is doing...

that still doesn't mean she deserves public humiliation...

[fishwax]

136. then handle the matter privately, instead of discussing it while she's helping customers

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. It's never okay to reprimand an employee in front of a customer.

Never.

[Lugnut]

143. It makes no difference what the circumstances were.

It is outrageous and unprofessional to chastise an employee in front of customers for any reason. Effective managers know that.

[Dorian Gray]

230. Regardless

he should NOT chastise her in front of a customer. It's just not done. It's rude and unprofessional. And it makes the customer uncomfortable, which is a HUGE no-no.

A letter to the corporate office is in order. He should be reprimanded (not in front of a customer) for making customers uncomfortable.

And perhaps Pat should be reprimanded for being late, as well. But NOT in front of customers.

[Celebration]

244. one thing we do know, though

NEVER should this be discussed in front of the customers.

[WinkyDink]

248. It's called "having a meeting in private."

[nuxvomica]

6. Good idea to send a letter of complaint to Hannaford's

They are very sensitive to public relations. A public dressing down may even be against their policy. It is never OK to humiliate an employee in public, IMO, or even in front of just the other employees. Also, a comment card praising that employee's efficient bagging is in order, as well.

[malaise]

12. No one insults a worker in front of me

without hearing from me.
I would have asked him if he felt important insulting an elderly woman in front of a customer. Then I would tell him I would never return.
I like the fact that you wrote a letter but these unmannerly arrogant punks must be shamed in public.

gr

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. ^This.

[Aerows]

26. You said it, malaise

It's extremely unprofessional to do it in front of customers. I would have given him a piece of my mind right then and there, and THEN also wrote a letter. You just don't do that.

[niyad]

46. with you 1000%. he definitely would have heard from me, in front of as many people as I could

manage.

[ArcticFox]

15. Good little Eichmann

What a perfect little fascist boy. When do they start handing out the whips?

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reformist2]

22. You should have given her a $5 tip, let her know somebody was on her side.

[lapislzi]

36. There's a no tipping policy

Weird, but baggers aren't allowed to accept tips. I have tried many times to push $5 into the hand of a kid who helped me with a bulky purchase...no deal.

[Dappleganger]

59. You could try anyway...

our son is a bagger at a grocery store and people try all the time, but he doesn't accept. It makes him feel pretty damn good, though.

[handmade34]

47. oh yes!

I have a time or two given a VERY generous tip to an employee that is obviously not being respected... I don't think money solves ills but it was a little thing I could do

[janet118]

49. I don't believe tips are allowed at Hannaford's . . .

or most supermarkets. I actually believe a letter was the best response. Making a scene in public with the manager that focuses on a worker may make the worker feel uncomfortable and get her in even more trouble. Maybe a quiet word aside to the manager about how you are going to write a letter about his embarrassing a good worker in public might make him sweat a little before corporate gets in touch with him - or if they don't bother to follow up, he will perhaps be careful about being more respectful of his workers.

[reformist2]

122. I had no idea. Could she get in trouble for accepting it?!

[Davis_X_Machina]

132. When I and my brothers..

...were bundleboys, the chain used to send around people to attempt to tip us, and they'd duck-walk anybody who took one to the manager's office and fire them on the spot, over the manager's head, if he wouldn't do it.

[mntleo2]

37. Make sure to write them ...

...and tell their head office why you no longer shop there. And point them to this article you wrote to show them that other people are watching as well. I live on west coast and if this chain ever comes here, mark my words I would never step foot in it.

I have never stepped foot in a WalMart and wrote them more than once to tell them why. I have seen little improvement in their labor practices or any other criticism, just a bunch of empty rhetoric, if any acknowledgement at all.

I am sure many others have written to them for the same reasons and the articles written about them are being watched by consumers. So I cannot help but notice many of their ads are based on the same reasons I refuse to step foot in them, which are: They are non-union, after being prosecuted more than twice for locking workers in their stores past their working time and forcing them to work for free, their outsourcing of their products, the way they kill the local economy.

Now in their ads, they are using a few of their workers to brag how there are "opportunities" for advancement, how they "cooperate" with local business (yeah right the local city councils who they bribe), and the one that gets me the most, how they use "American" products.

I told them I am low income, still I support local businesses instead of shopping at their store. That local prices if they are a little higher save me a long car trip to their store, indeed I can often walk to them. That many times WalMart prices are low for a few things, but comparable for most things carried in my local businesses. That many times my local merchant is less expensive to boot! Other reason I have told them: My local merchant is LOCAL, she/he usually live in my community, they attend the local church/synagogue/mosque, their kids go to school with my family's kids, they pay taxes into my community, they are a vital part of my neighborhood. Most importantly of all, their profits go into the local economy through the financial institutes where the money goes back into my community, not some place in the Bahamas and into some rich person's pocket who will never support my community after their deposits are sent to some place that is far away from my town, maybe not even deposited in my country.

Let these heartless slave masters know they should treat their workers decently and give them credit for making up for their late arrival and for the free work they do, not chide them after being 10 minutes late.

Take it from someone who used to work in payroll, when a worker clocks in, this is the time they begin to get paid to the end of their agreed upon time. If they work any longer, you can bet your first born, this never counts towards overtime, so this manager didn't lose a penny for that worker being late.

My 2 cents,

Cat in Seattle

Pee Ess: I also tell my local merchant the same reason as to why I am shopping at their store and not going to WalMart so they know I appreciate their presence in my community.

[niyad]

51. k and r--thank you for sharing this with us. it is hard, sometimes, knowing what is the best option

all we can do is try to make the best choices, and not beat ourselves up too badly for them.

[ejpoeta]

61. you definitely could have said something to him.

excuse me your name is x? Yes, I just wanted to let you know what a pleasant shopping experience I have had in your store after not being here in so long. It's a shame that you feel the need to treat your employees so poorly and in such a public way. It's not good for you or your store. I can assure you that I will be letting your corporate offices know just how I feel about such a public flogging of an employee hurts their business. I don't care how inexpensive your produce is, I will not support such treatment at any savings.

It's easy to think of a response later by the way. This is the crap you generally see. I hate going to walmart though I really don't have that much of a choice sometimes. I avoid it when possible. My sister used to work there and when they had a good manager, the atmosphere was so much better! I went there a lot more. But she would talk about how the change in manager just changed everything and it sucked going in there. You could see it in the worker's eyes. You can see it now.

[fascisthunter]

85. There is a time and place for everything

shaming an adult is very demeaning and unnecessary.

[Joe the Revelator]

92. 20 minutes late? She's lucky she wasn't fired. She lied to his face as well.

[ScreamingMeemie]

96. OMG...You have 2 DU accounts?!

:rofl:

[Joe the Revelator]

98. ?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

108. You have a comrade-in-arms upthread. Valiantly fighting for the strong against the weak.

[underseasurveyor]

216. HAHAHA

Nice Catch :rofl:

[pipi_k]

99. Oh, this touches a big nerve for me...

I absolutely LOATHE public humiliation by anyone.

I am generally one of those people who won't say "boo" to someone. Unless that person humiliates me in public. Then I've been known to snap back quite nastily, and in one instance, I made a person apologize publicly before I would return to the situation/activity.

Anyway, I can understand your guilt in not saying something to the rude manager. Although I think you could write a letter to the home office and let them know what you witnessed, enclosing a copy to the offending store manager.

People have jobs to do, yes, but there is absolutely NO need whatsoever to use one's position for intimidation and humiliation.

[xchrom]

115. 17 minutes requires a public call out?

that 'manager' has too much free time on his hands, imo.

[Agony]

117. For the $2.07 that cost the business many times that?

one person not shopping there any more...

probably learned this in business school. Idiot.

[Brigid]

192. I seriously doubt this little punk went to business school.

If he did, he sure as hell didn't learn anything. Or, it was a seriously poor business school.

[City of Mills]

119. Reminds me of a movie

In Shawshank Redemption, when ex-con Brooks gets a job at the grocery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KmUZ4nQ-6k&t=5m10s

[MH1]

129. Really jerkwad of the manager. And I would add, I prefer to bag my own when ...

the choice is a 20-something or younger kid ... they usually don't have an effin' clue HOW to bag correctly anyway. And apparently the store managers are too busy watching who clocked in when to pay attention to how people do their jobs. I mean come on. Giant (and I'm sure many other stores) sell these nice insulated bags for putting your frozen stuff in. It even says that's what it's for on the display. Which among other places, is right next to the checkout. So how come some of their baggers (when they have people bagging) don't friggin' know to put the frozen stuff in the insulated bag??? Is this rocket science?? And don't get me started with packing lettuce next to frozen, or throwing boxed items into the bag haphazardly instead of neatly stacking them and efficiently using the space.

But I am betting a 60-ish lady knows exactly how to bag correctly. Maybe if the manager was paying attention to what's important to his customers, he'd treat her with more respect.

[Dappleganger]

130. This is why I tend to always go to the same store...

this one down the road, where our son works as well, has a long history of good training (flagship store, of course) and fantastic customer service. They actually take the time to train their baggers, then put the new ones to work alongside the seasoned workers until they show they can do it on their own. Our oldest son (now almost 18) has been employed by them since he was 14 and has had some great training in so many things there. When I go they quite often take things out of the cart as well, then put it into the car of course. No tips accepted, just a smile. They keep the same employees for years and years because they like it and are respected. We never have to worry about bread or fruit being improperly packed either.

[lapislzi]

283. She did a stellar job of bagging

That is to say, exactly the way I would do it. Fridge stuff together, packaged stuff together, bathroom/cleaning stuff together. Eggs and bread on top.

That's one of the reasons I adore the reusable grocery bags. The stuff fits so well, and you can do a whole shop with just 3 or 4 bags, correctly packed. One trip from the car.

[Obamanaut]

134. Is it possible, just possible, that the lady doing the bagging *wants* to

work? Why do we assume every old person working *has* to work? From the OP "How our older people have to take menial jobs to make ends meet..."

As for the on-the-spot correction, the young man did not berate or belittle, but rather it was more like a two ships passing and oh by the way. I have been berated, and this did not come even close to what I had.

All good managers know it is good to praise in public and censure in private, but if a minor correction can be done without interrupting the flow of whatever is going on, then let it be done.

[pipi_k]

145. Sorry, but...

the little bastard could also have attached a note to her timecard if it was THAT important not to interrupt the flow

[Obamanaut]

185. There is a world of difference between telling someone, in public, they were

late - in a normal conversational tone in public and taking them aside, privately, to tell them their work has continually been unsatisfactory and possible termination looms in their future.

What the narrative in the OP suggested is that it was the former.

[pipi_k]

202. Call it whatever...

It was a public rebuke.

Totally unnecessary.


If it had anything to do with rudeness toward a customer, OK...then I could see it.

But this was not an issue fit for public discourse and it was meant to shame the woman in public.

[pipi_k]

205. Just thought of this...

I don't know about anyone else, but I tell you what...if the time ever comes when I work only because I want to, not because I have to, it'll be a cold day in hell when I take that kind of shit from anyone, let alone a snot-nosed kid just barely out of diapers.

No way.

Some years ago I volunteered (no pay!) at a Planned Parenthood clinic. The majority of people there were pleasant. Some, however...mostly doctors...were arrogant little assholes. Needless to say, I didn't stay there long.

If someone is working because they don't really need the money, you don't chastise them in public. You don't treat them like children. It's bad enough to put up with that shit if you HAVE to work.

So in this case, I truly believe that woman in the store really needed her job and was afraid to stand up to that jackass manager. Maybe it's just my own assumption, but I can't imagine any reasonable adult accepting that sort of thing if s/he doesn't have to.

I know that if I didn't need that job, I would tell that moron to go fuck himself with the entire contents of the frozen foods section.

[WinkyDink]

258. There was ZERO need for him to "correct" this employee AT THAT TIME.

[A HERETIC I AM]

137. Something you should know about Hannafords....

in case you aren't aware.

They were purchased by the Delhaize Group, based in Belgium.

They also own the "Sweetbay" chain, which is a major (newish) competitor of Publix Supermarkets here in Florida.

http://www.delhaizegroup.com/en/Home/OurMarkets.aspx

http://www.delhaizegroup.com/en/Home.aspx

In a Sweetbay, the house brands are "Hannaford".

[Dappleganger]

146. They own Food Lion now?

Wow, they are *awful*. The one near us has closed down because people refused to shop there, it was so bad.

[Carni]

177. Food Lion IMO sucks!

They routinely have misleading price signs up and I have bought a number of spoiled products there.
I am not a fan of FoodLion or Bloom which is also part of that German conglomerate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

138. That's called public reprimand and most union contracts ban it.

A letter is an excellent idea. Free market and all. Play their game. Let us know if you get a response.

[Dappleganger]

148. Yet another good reason to be a part of a union.

[eShirl]

140. wait, was he saying employees aren't paid for their extra time when they have to stay late?

"it's part of the job"

[TicketyBoo]

142. Oh, Bingo!

Somebody else DID catch that!

[Ikonoklast]

150. Still very common in non-union retail food stores.

You are expected to work right up to closing time, and then clean your department off the clock, on your own time.

Complain and get fired.

[Brigid]

194. Hasn't Wal-Mart gotten sued for this?

More than once?

[Ikonoklast]

203. Yep. More'n oncet.

http://www.wisconsin.edu/tfunds/walmart1204a.htm

But, they aren't alone.

[laundry_queen]

212. Every place I've ever worked retail was like this

one time I complained and told them it was illegal (in my province) to have me work an extra half hour without pay every night to balance out all the cash registers. They changed their policy and gave me back pay (I kept track of all those extra quarter to half hours). I was 'laid off' a month later.

[TicketyBoo]

141. I've read the whole thread,

so maybe somebody posted about this while I was reading, but they hadn't up until I finished reading. Until that time nobody mentioned

"What are we going to do about this, Pat?" he asked. "I'll make it up," she said, "you know, I've been staying later some nights." "That's part of the job," he said.

This is every bit as egregious as public humiliation. Staying later is "part of the job"? I worked for a company like that once. I claimed the overtime as overtime, and when they didn't include it on my first paycheck, I quit. I had to take a lie detector test to get that crummy job because they were afraid I'd steal a candy bar from them. No wonder — they were not averse to stealing from their employees.

[Dappleganger]

147. Good catch.

[seabeyond]

149. clock in/clock out. paid. maybe ... she is staying late cause an employee is late

relieving her and not making the scheduled time he/she is suppose to be there. nowhere is it suggested it in unpaid time.

[TicketyBoo]

162. It's plainly suggested

that "part of the job" is staying late. He's telling her that her staying late doesn't make up the time for her being late. Therefore, "part of the job" means working late unpaid.

Pretty obvious.

[seabeyond]

167. it does not mean that. her working late has nothing to do with her being late for work

nowhere does it imply that she is not being paid for staying late.

[Obamanaut]

182. There is nothing in the narrative that suggested working off the clock late. As for

'being' late, schedules are made with start times anticipating the staff will be there at the time posted. If staff does not arrive on time, someone else may have to stay late. The staff that has to stay late may have a kid at day care.

That's why we have schedules, so everyone, employers and employees, can make plans around that schedule.

[Lucian]

159. I would NEVER work a job that made me work overtime...

without my approval and I would never work at a job where they didn't pay me my deserved overtime if I did work overtime.

I'd rather be poor than put up with that shit.

[TicketyBoo]

164. That is why

I quit. I wouldn't work unpaid, either.

They had me stocking the pop and dairy cooler after my shift was over. And they wouldn't pay me for that time (20-30 minutes a day). And it was that way for every employee.

[Obamanaut]

179. The narrative did not suggest that the lady stayed late *off the clock.* Since

such was not stated, it could well be that she stayed late some nights and was paid for it. We don't know otherwise, but it is better for our outrage meter to assume she worked for free.

There is the assumption that seniors have to work to make ends meet, when in fact some of us simply like to. I straighten the back room cooler in a convenience store (the cold area behind the doors where the cold drinks are stored) from time to time because I enjoy it. For six months I did it for pay, two nights a week, but discovered I could clean everyones else's messes in just one night, so I quit and became a volunteer.

[seabeyond]

183. my father at 72 is looking for a job. he has worked all his life. he likes it

he has always owned businesses and has sold them all. contracted with new owner for 5 yrs he would work... parttime in morning when he likes. that is over and he is looking for something else.

[Obamanaut]

190. I go to that convenience store for coffee every morning. A few

weeks ago I did a chore for the manager while I was having coffee. A customer overheard her asking if I could do it, and while I was outside, he left her his change, less than 50 cents, for "the old guy cleaning the mats."

Even though I don't need it, and it was such a small amount, I thought the gesture was extremely thoughtful.

[seabeyond]

196. lol. that is cute. nt

[WinkyDink]

251. You have defined "irrelevancy".

[seabeyond]

256. it is relevant to the poster i responded to. discussion on his enjoyment of working

at an older age.

what an odd post winky.

[TicketyBoo]

206. Well, if she stayed late,

then staying late could make up for being a little late to work.

That is the way I would take it, and, from the conversation, she would expect for it to be that way, too. But he didn't see it that way.

That says to me that working over her usual hours is "part of the job" (as he says), and doesn't in any way make up for being late. It's not me saying it, it's him.

[WolverineDG]

144. You never, ever dress down an employee in public. Ever. nt

[1monster]

155. Union grocery store? What's that? I don't think I've ever even heard of one

in this area all of my adult years on my own -- 37 out of 55.

[TicketyBoo]

166. Safeway used to be union.

But we haven't had a Safeway here in over 20 years. Not sure if they are still union or not.

[1monster]

171. Never had one anywhere near here.

[Gormy Cuss]

174. Safeway is still union

and Hannaford's is a good (albeit nonunion) store in Maine and NH. I worked there eons ago and have friends and family who work for them.

I don't know where the store referenced by the OP is located The only NY Hanny's I've been in is in Middletown and that place was dysfunctional on many levels.

[druidity33]

213. Stop & Shop here in MA is Union. nt.

[Vinca]

163. I always shop at Hannafords because it's only 3 miles from where I live,

has what I want and actually sells produce from local farmers in the summer. While there are some older people working there, I've never seen any of them disrespected in any way. In fact, from what a couple of the clerks told me one day, their problems are with the customers. There is one older man who is a cashier and is a very nice person. He's been there forever. He told me that one day a woman came through with her young son, pointed at him and said to the kid, "See. If you don't do your homework you'll end up with a stupid job like that." That nearly made me cry.

[HappyMe]

173. This is true. I have a Hannaford's within walking

distance. I have witnessed a few customers being just plain rude and mean to the workers there. Cashiers tend to be treated like crap. I should know, I was one. Stockers & baggers are treated like crap too. I guess that's okay though. After all, it's a 'menial' job.

We don't know if this woman has been late every dang time she was scheduled. Maybe she has been talked to about being late before behind closed doors. She just plain lied. That was probably more the source of her being embarrassed than anything else.

I would not call what happened being 'berated' at all. From some of the posts here, you would think she had been beaten.

I have an issue with working in a grocery store being called 'menial'. Really? Nice attitude. :eyes:

Maybe the woman wants to work. Just because she is a senior citizen doesn't mean she is forced to work.

[lapislzi]

286. The store itself is great.

Best produce and a huge organic section. I think each district is independent. Some are better than others vis a vis labor practices. They've only recently made inroads into NY. I thought they would be a nice change from the crummy A&P or the overpriced Whole Foods. Trader Joe's is still great, though!

[jillan]

168. I once had my supervisor reprimand me in front of a customer (I was in my 30s). Afterwards

I went up to my supervisor and told her -
If you want to yell at me or reprimand me, do it all you want, but please don't do it in front of my customers.

She later apologized.

[Carni]

175. Baggers tardiness=Bad store image

So WHY was he broadcasting it?!?!

This manager was an ASS!

Not only was he out of line reprimanding the woman in front of customers (and I don't care if she's late every day)
Why would I as the customer, want to have my time taken up while a manager reprimands an employee, when I am just waiting to get my products and get out of there? To me that would say that he deems his time as a manager to be more important than my time as a customer--what message does that send?

The woman's tardiness wouldn't effect ME, but waiting while he pulled his little power trip lecture would take up my time.

The goal is to please the customer, not to make the customer witness his so called power over an employee.

I think the fact that the original poster is so upset about having to watch that whole exchange...sort of proves that fact. Will the OP go back? Most likely not -- And what is happening now? Dozens of other people are reading about this store in a negative way--GOOD GOING MANAGER! (DUH?!?)

To the OP if I were you I would email the CEO of the company and tell them about your experience. That manager is an idiot.

[lapislzi]

266. Done. Courteously, of course.

Calling him out for an idiot doesn't reinforce my calls for civility and respect!

[steve2470]

176. Thank you for caring about her

Also, thanks for writing a letter to the store. Yes, his rebuke of her may have been "mild" to some but not warranted in the least in public.

[madmax]

180. Geeez, what a story. So sad.

Americans suck at being human. Damn, kid should respect the older employee and not talk to her that way in front of people. She may have been old enough to be his mother.

No freakin respect or decency. :mad:

[Zax2me]

184. Doesn't sound right. He won't be a manager long....

I can't remember over the last 20 years having seen an employee publically 'spanked' like this.
It's just bad management.
My guess is he will not be manager long.
You said this store had the best prices and produce, sounds like a good store.
Likely this manager will get weeded out.

[Brigid]

186. Epic Fail on that kid's part. Epic Fail.

Doing that at all is bad enough, but to do it in front of customers? Did that kid's parents teach him any common sense at all? Do I do this :banghead: or this :cry: ? I can't decide.

[flvegan]

187. Management 101

Don't berate, belittle nor humiliate a worker in front of customers or his/her coworkers. Especially not over a tardiness issue. Now if they were setting fire to the place, that might be different.

[Vehl]

191. How horrible :( K&R

Ive seen this happen a few times as well.

Its sickening, to say the least. Doubly so for me because I come from a culture that puts heavy emphasis on respecting elders. The first few times I could not even believe what I was seeing. Such treatment does not end in grocery stores either. Have you seen the way teachers/educators are treated in this nation? This is a sad sign of the times...when common decency is dead and the country starts a slow descent towards madness and ruin :(

[progressoid]

193. Damn, I thought this was going to be a thread about The Clash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag6GccWDqAs

[Liberal_in_LA]

204. awful! thanks for sharing your story. n/t

[Xenotime]

207. This is elder abuse and it has to stop.

[Liberal_in_LA]

208. Happier story about older worker: Ralph's employee of the year

I was in a Ralphs in the San Fernando Valley area of Los Angeles a few weeks ago. The cashier who was ringing me up had hand written signs around her indicating that she was named cashier of the year. She told me that it meant she was cashier of the entire chain. I asked what she received for this honor - she's getting $1000 and a trip anywhere in the world. NICE!

Anyway - she looked to be over 50, maybe nearer to 60

[notadmblnd]

209. Why didn't you confront him?

And tell him that reprimanding a subordinate in front of a customer is highly unprofessional? I would have demanded to see his manager on the spot to express my disdain of his behavior in front of a customer. It might have made him stop and think before he does it again in front of a customer.

[revolution breeze]

210. Absolutely.

I have asked to speak to a store manager when I have seen employees behave unprofessionally, as I have also given praise for employees performing stellarly. It only takes a few minutes and it beleive it has made a difference where I shop!

[underseasurveyor]

217. How else do you expect employers to keep employees in their place?

Humiliate them first in front of customers and then make sure you get them to grovel in fear of losing their jobs. Hey there's plenty of jobs out there a woman in her 60's can do. Right?

Nice :eyes:


I think we ALL should write Hannaford's. :mad:

[varelse]

218. Thank you for caring

<3

[Anser]

219. Very sad..

Having held a wide variety of jobs on both sides of the "management" coin, I've seen stuff like this far too much. Standing on principle against this sort of thing is one of the main reasons I've not had the opportunity to stay on that management side.

I don't have much too add, just, thank you for your post. As sad and sickened as I am the way people treat each other over something as meaningless as a fictional "bottom line," at least DU reminds me that I'm not the only one.

Wow.. I'm a smart guy who has worked extremely hard for a lifetime trying to find ways to help make things better, but I feel powerless as well; I'm just not seeing much hope right now. Greed, rationalization, dehumanization, and cruelty just seem to always have all the momentum.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

220. AHA - caught you!

One of my favorite things to do is compliment store workers who are doing their jobs well to them and their managers/supervisors. The next time I see the individual I ask him/her if their boss mentioned the good word put in on their behalf. The best episode was passing a note to a traveling manager of a recycling center. It said, "Please give this lady a raise - she deserves it." She got it. Not surprisingly, caught-you-doing-something-good works well with adults as well as kids.

:blush:

[mackerel]

222. Here's me thinking this was going to be about The Clash.

Anyway personally having been in management for the last 20 years I would have said something to Mr. GenY. It's inappropriate to do that in front of customers and I know for a fact that Safeway has a very strict policy about that public reprimands. Which would mean that most stores do to.

Consider writing a letter to the store manager about this, they may not know about that kids inappropriate behavior.

[pipi_k]

245. I wish we could all remember to do that...

It's such a small thing to do, time-wise, but it can really make someone's day, or more.

I remember receiving a note from a customer who praised me for all the help I gave. I kept that note for a long time. :)

[lapislzi]

265. Always praise!

Heck, I'm quick enough to complain.

One of my fave stores, Stew Leonard's, has a box where you can drop your checker's name if he/she is especially friendly or helpful. Because they employees generally are, I always drop their names in the box.

You'd be surprised how well it works. That store is a mob scene on weekends, but the staff is invariably courteous and pleasant. They will really go out of their way, even if your request is inconvenient (I once had them scooping handfuls of beef trimmings for birdie suet--free!)

[The Wizard]

223. Tape a thumb tack to your finger

and squeeze the milk and juice containers.

[Sherman A1]

224. There are many things you can do here

but, they mostly come down to

1). returning to the store and going after the kiddie manager in public (any issue works).

2). complaining to the store manager

3). complaining to the corporate office.

4). calling, emailing or the corporate office complimenting the bagger on their good work and attitude supporting the older worker.

5). or you can do both telling the corporate office how happy you were with your shopping until kiddie manager interrupted it and ruined the experience shopping at their store.

Actually you did well by not doing anything at the moment, giving yourself time to develop a well constructed email to their office.

[DesertDiamond]

225. Coming in late is punished, while working late without pay is expected? YES!! WE NEED UNIONS!!

[Obamanaut]

234. We don't know that the working late was in fact without pay. The employee

could well have been on the clock and getting paid.

The schedule calls for a start time of X, the employee should be there to start at X. Anything else is, well, late.

[eridani]

226. Do they have comment cards?

When an employee goes out of the way to help me, I try to make time to fill out one of those.

[Citizen Worker]

227. "I'll make it up," she said, "you know, I've been staying later some nights." "That's part of the

job." Makes me wonder if the manager doesn't have the workers punch out at their regular time and continue working.

[BigBearJohn]

228. One thing for sure: He was out of place in upbraiding an employee in public.

I would definitely write the management and
say "HOW DARE that supervisor upbraid an
employee in front of paying customers.
It's outrageous!"

[Enthusiast]

233. Without this callous Ayn Randian

mindset the right wing can't gain control. Fascists must tamp down the humanity and social justice to gain control. This is their MO.

Just look back to the early days of Nazi Germany. They had to make it 'alright' to be abusive to racial and religious minorities, and they did. This eventually escalated into the death camps.

When we stand up against this rude behavior, bullying and mistreatment of the elderly we are standing up to the fascist. Remember that. Fascists are nothing more than grown up bullies. You will know them when you see them.

[secondwind]

237. I think I would have said something, my Latina outrage would have taken over, LOL.

Seriously, that is NOT funny. I need to tell family about Hannaford's. I never though 'union or not union' when it came to food shopping!

Thank you for a very eye-opening post...

[geckosfeet]

238. Oh my - 10:17. 17 minutes. Ones life and sustenance can hinge on 17 minutes.

How petty and pointless our business communities have become.

[pipi_k]

241. How about ten minutes...

I was at my last job for about seven years. Was only late once in all that time, toward the end....traffic stuff.

My boss had the nerve to chew me out for it.

What really made it all the more ridiculous was that for at least four of those seven years I didn't have an actual lunch break (change of personnel). Everyone left the office and I stayed in the conference room with my lunch still answering phones and did not have actual break times during the day.

I was always, except for that one time, about 10 to 15 minutes early each day.


Asshole bosses. Fuck 'em.

[lapislzi]

239. Thank you, friends

for supporting this thread. I know we have differing views, but I'm honored that the discussion has been civil.

A poster upthread caught the intangible that I was trying to express: empathy. When we lack it, when we forsake it, when compassion fails, we have failed as a society.

Of course an employee who clocks in late and then tries to cover should be reprimanded. But even a reprimand can be delivered with respect and empathy for the worker.

In my daily life, I strive to cultivate compassion and empathy. I try to treat others as I wish to be treated. In my opinion, it's the essence of humanity.

[lapislzi]

247. UPDATE--Letters are in the mail

To store manager, district manager, and corporate.

Don't mess with the Laz.

[underseasurveyor]

267. Yay

:grouphug:

[niyad]

273. good for you--

(even after the letters, I think I would go into that store, NOT to purchase anything, but to find that little git and give him a piece of my mind anyway)

[pipi_k]

281. Also...

Give the little barf bag a copy of the letters and do the "I'm watching you" thing with two fingers on one hand...

then walk away.

hahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!

[pipi_k]

280. Yay!!!!! I hope you told them...

that about 3 million DUers agreed with you!

:)

[snooper2]

252. So when did you get lost in the supermarket?

Before you checked out? Cause usually the doors are right to the left and right of the checkout lanes...

:shrug:

[lapislzi]

268. 1980 or so.

been wandering aimlessly ever since.

I can no longer shop happily.

[boomerbust]

253. You should have

Kicked that smarmy little pricks ass.

[WinkyDink]

255. AMAZING. Some cannot grasp that A PUBLIC JOB REPRIMAND IS SIMPLY NOT DONE.

There was no imminent danger to anyone; the employee was not punching out.

The Young Punk simply wanted to PUBLICLY HUMILIATE this woman, his underling (not HIS employee; the store's).

[TwilightGardener]

257. Young manager guy has probably never heard of the manager rule of "praise in public, scold in

private"--but at least he didn't scream at her and call her an idiot and a "piece of work". I've had that happen, in front of customers, back when I worked at a donut shop in college. I quit soon after. Edit to add: the customer who witnessed my manager berating me actually did defend me and told her to stop it--nice middle-aged guy.

[bighart]

270. I have been in a similar situation myself only it was my bosses boss who

was screaming at me and literally inches from my face. Of course he was pissed at what my boss had told me to do, but my boss happened to be out that day so I got to take the heat. I just turned around and walked off and when he asked what I thought I was doing I said "I can stay here and listen and end up punching you in the face and loose my job or I can walk away and report this to the HR department and see what happens."

[VoteProgressive]

263. +1

[bighart]

264. I whole-heartedly agree that the discussion should have taken place off the sales floor.

There are some underlying issues here that we are not privy to. It does sound like from the exchange there may be a history of tardiness on the part of this particular cashier, and if that is the case there may be some frustration on the part of the supervisor that he needs to address before he has a private conversation, with an impartial third party witness, with her about it. As a supervisor you should never go into a discussion like this frustrated or angry if it can be avoided,in the case of an egregious violation or severe safety issue it may not be avoidable.
One thing I don't think should be a factor in the conversation is the age of either of them. It really does not matter if one is "elderly" and the other young. The issue is supervisory skills and tactfully handling a need for employee "discipline", age is irrelevant.

[hugo_from_TN]

275. A lot of ageism in this thread.

I have a feeling that if a female manager in her sixties had chided a young man of 18 that he was late the outrage would be much muted.

'the kid'
'young punk'
etc.

[lapislzi]

276. I grant you.

The fact that it was a young person chastising an older one did rankle me, more so than had it been the other way around.

I was raised to speak respectfully to everyone, with an extra measure for people older than I. It was presumed that I could and would benefit from their wisdom and experience.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

278. We need many, many more like you, lapistzi

And good on you for the letters. Will you let us know the outcome?

I wholeheartedly agree with you about treating everyone with respect, but especially older folks. I've got 2 90-year old parents who still teach me a helluva lot!

:hug:

[pipi_k]

284. Who knows...

if the outrage would be muted.

Maybe it would be.

But the underlying principle would be the same. Doesn't matter who it is...do not ever chastise in public.


As far as the alleged "ageism" goes...

IMO, nobody gets automatic respect for his/her age until that person has experienced Life...which, by the age of 60 or so has likely happened. That means, also IMO, that a ten year old who has seen his family killed by war and bombs, for example, gets more respect than a 20 or 30-something snot nosed brat with a title who gets his jollies humiliating people in public.

[niyad]

287. last week, I turned in a head cashier (an older woman) for gossiping about one of the young clerks

to another clerk, on duty, in front of customers (me), using words we don't use on this board.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

282. He never should have humiliated her in front of a customer.

That happened in front of me at Taco Bueno once. I turned to the manager and said "That is the most unprofessional behavior I have ever seen in a manager. You NEVER correct an employee in FRONT of a customer. It's humiliating and rude." And I walked away. It pissed him off. And I refused to go back. They tore down the building and rebuilt it. That little ferret is no longer there, and the place is a breath of fresh air. People seem happy to work there.
Duckie