I gagged a bit on the saying of The Pledge this weekend. It was odd.

[Buzz Clik]

I was at a swim meet this weekend. Normally, we have the Star Spangled Banner to start things off. I generally stand and don't sing (I never sing anything -- anywhere for any reason). This time, however, they started with the Pledge of Allegiance. It had been years since I recited it, so I joined the folks in saying it.

When we go to the final words of "with liberty and justice for all", I stopped cold. I couldn't say that out loud because it's a lie.

My state and other states are working hard to erode liberty and justice for targeted groups. Indiana is outlawing all civil unions and allowing no state benefits (normally granted for married couples) for those in civil unions. Indiana is working on Arizona-style anti-immigrant legislation, including some of the "you look like you could be an illegal get out of the car" police stuff. Anti-union bills everywhere. Indiana is forcing doctors who are consulting with patients considering an abortion to read a bunch of lies about the health dangers of abortion, including the well-known lies about breast cancer.

"Liberty and justice for all"? Hardly. For most people most of the time, but that's as far as I'll go. I'd really like to get back to liberty and justice for all. It's what I believe in.

[GoneOffShore]

1. Haven't said the Pledge in years.

And actually I always leave out the words 'Under god'. When I learned the Pledge those words weren't in it.

Never liked the Pledge.
Always thought it was some sort of loyalty oath.

Yeah, I'm that old.

[Buzz Clik]

2. So misguided.

The "under god" part is in the Bible. Jeebus wrote it hisself.

[GoneOffShore]

4. Yeah, I make the baby Jeebus cry.

And I'm glad about that.

[ironrooster]

3. I stand - but won't recite either one - b/c as you say, it is a lie.

[HarveyDarkey]

5. I'll stand up, but I don't say anything

It's all meaningless hypocrisy & drivel to me.

[ZombieHorde]

6. Recommended. nt

[Tansy_Gold]

7. Pledge allegiance to a flag? No, not me. Haven't said it for years

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America."

Why should I pledge my allegiance to a piece of fabric? What is it going to do for me? What will it do if I don't pledge allegiance to it?


"And to the republic for which it stands."

So, the republic comes in second to the flag? Some screwed up priorities there, methinks.


"One nation."

Well, sort of.


"Under God."

Oh, puh-leeze, gimme a fuckin' break. Added during the McCarthy era as a protest against the "godless" communisits.


"Indivisible."

Hey, tell that to the state's rights folks.


"With liberty and justice for all."


:eyes:



It's like the "10 Commandments." If you take it apart, you see how ridiculous it is.




Tansy Gold, trying her best to avoid the bullshit

[GoneOffShore]

18. Well done - You've given me one more set of reasons not to recite the pledge.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. The last line really puts a cherry on top, don't it?

:thumbsup:

[TheMadMonk]

43. This atheist says: "Nothing wrong with the 10 commandments."

Mostly. Even #1 & #2. All people should cleave to their god alone (or lack in the case of we atheists). Anything else makes you no different than a fair weather footy fan.

"To thine own self be true." would do better in place of 1 & 2, but "don't go god shopping" works well enough to let alone.

The remainder are simply the basic rules for community living. And all communities from the darkest depth of the Congo or Amazon to downtown Manhattan, (even the gangs) have their own set of "unbreakable rules" for internal dealings. They generally number between 8 and 14 and I believe the total pool of rules from which each community selects their own subset is under 20 in total.

One thing most people fail to appreciate, because the Bible and its associated religions are so ubiquitous today, is that the 10 commandments are/were purely "domestic" laws for a few thousand wandering nomads. They apply to you and your dealings WITH YOUR OWN PEOPLE alone. If the next village/city state/nation over (depending on your people's level of social sophistication) genuflects on the opposite hand to you, then traditionally they were fair game for any attrocity you cared to dream up and in practice they remain so today. Just ask the Catholics in Ireland. The Shia in Suni territory and vice versa and probably the poor Fatimites in either. Brahma vs Hindu.

Provided the other guy is properly "other" fair and equitable treatment IS NOT required by most gods on the planet, and ideed historically most have demanded every enemy life down to the last puling babe. Girls and women of breeding age sometimes exempt, but only for slavery and rape.

[backscatter712]

8. Every time I say the Pledge, I deliberately omit "under God".

But yeah, saying the Pledge is a bunch of bullshit anyways - a low-level loyalty oath demanded by the authoritarian elements of this country.

[Buzz Clik]

12. I remember back in the days when we were supposed to be terrified of Mao.

In school, they'd show us pictures and films of Chinese school kids reciting the Thoughts of Chairman Mao and how utterly brainwashed these poor kids were. "Now, it's time for The Pledge." If you boycotted the saying of it, you were bannished to the principal's office. That bit of bizarre irony wasn't lost on any of us.

[MatthewStLouis]

9. I proudly say the pledge; I'll be damned if some fake patriotic b*stard thinks he can say it louder!

I understand how the pledge makes some people feel. But like all words, those words mean different things to different people. I have no problem saying the pledge. It's not a loyalty oath to me. I'm not brainwashed by it. I'm happy to say it louder than some worthless teabagger. By not saying the pledge it's like laying down and saying "Ok, you are proud of your right wing country and I'm ashamed". I'd rather say "You are not taking my country away from me! I know the real liberal principles it was founded on!" I can be just as proud of this d*mned country as any right wing f***up! When we elected Barack Obama, I have to say, I wanted to yell from the rooftops "America! Love it or leave it! Ha! Ha!"

I feel the same way about the "Don't Tread on Me" flag. I have always admired the spunk in that message, and was disgusted when the teabaggers took it as their own. As if they were the only real patriots! No, I believe in left-wing patriots and won't cede all the pride in my nation to the righties.

And lastly, "Under God" can be taken any way you like. At least it isn't "Under Pat Robertson's God" or something as evil as that. At least it's generic enough, that it can mean 'Allah' to some and 'Vishnu' to others... Even if you're more of a scientist and an atheist you can take your 'god' to be 'science'.


Again, maybe that's all too open minded. At least us democrats can be open minded!

That concludes my free thinking session. I reserve the right to change my opinion with new information or after further thought...

[Buzz Clik]

10. That's a pretty healthy attitude.

For me, the reciting of the pledge was always a mindless exercise. I guess it had been so long since I said it last that the contradictions really struck home.

[bigwillq]

11. Congrats on 100 posts!

:toast: :bounce:

[MatthewStLouis]

13. Thanks for the congrats! I love the thinking that goes on here at du...

...As well as the humor and the general 'I actually care' kind of vibe here!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

41. I agree. I'm not going to not be patriotic just because some douche has shoplifted my country.

We are planning on a patriotic theme in our living room based on some bicentennial plates my husband's uncle gave us. They are pewter and ceramic and have pictures from the revolution on it (including the whole Betsy Ross Bullshit, but it's still pretty). I'm going to hang a flag in a wooden box dedicated to all the vets.
To be fair, our media room will be a British Themed Room with the Beatles and a big Union Jack. LOL
Duckie

[tinkerbell41]

14. Odd that's when it happened to me.

At my kid's swim meet, sometime around the second "election" of Bush. I can't put my finger on what I felt or where my head was, but I just decided I was done. It didn't mean anything, I didn't feel right pledging loyalty to what??? I have NEVER said it again. I can barely bring myself to stand.
A part of me feels like every country is saying a pledge to their country, like they all feel as though they got it right. So if you don't believe your country got it right, why say it?
It's a little like religion to me, everyone has their story and rules, customs whatever, but what if you chose wrong? :shrug:

[tekisui]

15. I am with you all the way. knr.

[Solly Mack]

16. I don't say it and haven't since I refused to in the 3rd grade.

I believe in actual liberty and justice but I don't need rote patriotism to do so.

[Buzz Clik]

17. Third grade?

Yikes. I guess true rebels are born and not trained.

[Solly Mack]

19. A friend couldn't say it due to her religion and the other kids picked on her.

So I left the room with her to let the other kids know they would have to pick on me too. They stopped.

They would say all the stupid and mean things kids hear from the adults around them. "Don't you love America?" - along those lines.

It was well within her liberty to not say it...and yet she was attacked by the group for not doing so. More to the point, a group being taught - by rote, without thought - about the importance of liberty (and justice).

It was a real eye-opener for me.

[tekisui]

20. You are a good egg Solly Mack. I always thought so.

Now I know it has been for a long time.

[Solly Mack]

24. Thank you, tekisui.

I think you're a good egg too.

Back then, though, a lot of people thought me a troublemaker. lol

[Buzz Clik]

25. Ditto that.

[Joe Bacon]

34. Felt the same way.

Every school day started with reciting the Pledge. I just moved my lips and never spoke it out because I have no desire to worship a piece of cloth.

[Solly Mack]

37. I think that was the last school I attended that did say the pledge every morning.

I don't recall it ever being an issue again. Once I stopped saying it, that was that for me.

[alphafemale]

21. I pledge allegience to ........

.....tick...tck...no wait for it....wait ...there's something at the end I think... oh yeah... "Liberty and justice for all." Yeah I can align with that. The middle of that pledge is pretty much horseshit though.

[RegieRocker]

22. Congratulations my friend good to see you awake.

Would you like a drink of water.

[defendandprotect]

23. kr

[pitohui]

26. "i couldn't say that out loud because it's a lie" (you're not odd, the nazi's are)

as a child my first protest was i could not, would not say the pledge

for a time it was tolerated because i simply could not, would not speak at all, then i began to speak normally but i still wouldn't say the pledge

back in those days, this was considered a political act and pretty outrageous but i just. could. not. do. it.

they thought i was a "communist" and fuck 'em if they did, but i could not voice this terrible lie

i was and am a female and a crime victim, there is no liberty and justice for me, and i could see others around me, of different colors and background, who had no liberty or justice either

sometimes you just can't swallow the lie

stay strong, that's all i can say, it's my understanding that's a particularly big racial problem in indiana and i have no idea what to say about it except, people suck sometimes and you shouldn't have to pretend they don't suck when they DO

[Buzz Clik]

30. I have been accutely aware of the horrible politics of this state

Dems are rare, and we get swallowed up.

[ejpoeta]

27. i don't really say the pledge unless my kid asks me to help her remember it.

I bite my tongue because she likes it so much and loves saying it.

[Stargazer99]

28. I stopped standing or saying the pledge when

the State of Washington decided my older daughter had too much income $750.00 per month to received medical care. She died from a preventable death....This country will never have my loyalty again. I will not work gainst it but I will not honor it any more. You are not alone.

[Buzz Clik]

31. $750 will barely keep you alive when you're well

I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Even in First Grade, I knew I was an Atheist.

I always deliberately garbled the "Under God" bit. "Unfgger Frovbb"

[reformist2]

32. It's nice - if you don't think about the words. It's totally weird the moment you do, though.

Pledging allegiance? To a flag?! It makes me feel like we're in a perpetual state of war. And it feels vaguely totalitarian.

[TicketyBoo]

33. Takes all kinds,

I guess. :eyes:

[Buzz Clik]

35. We at DU accept all kinds.

[TicketyBoo]

47. Yes.

My statement was an affirmation of that fact.

[guitar man]

36. I never say it anymore

Because I never could quite figure out how to pronounce "Cthulhu" :crazy:

[Buzz Clik]

38. Hm.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4133079

[ChoppinBroccoli]

40. Totally Agree

I've never been in a situation where I've been asked to recite the Pledge of Allegiance since I was a kid in elementary school, but if it did ever happen, I would conspicuously leave out the words "under God." And I agree with a prior poster, that it DOES seem an awful lot like a loyalty oath, which is only a stone's throw away from outright brainwashing.

Also, when the National Anthem is played, I stand, remove my hat, but don't sing. Not because I have something against it, but just because I never sing ANYTHING. Not Happy Birthday, not anything. The gift of a good singing voice was something I did NOT receive, so I don't subject people to it. And anyone who's ever heard me sing would thank me for remaining silent.

The weird thing is, I have a strange revulsion to seeing the American flag these days, just because I no longer see it as a symbol of our country. I now see the flag as a symbol of right-wing zealots who want to wrap themselves in it and/or hide behind it as a means of doing evil. Our flag has been hijacked by the Republican Party to stand for all sorts of things the Founding Fathers never wanted it to stand for. So, while my love for my country has never wavered, I get a twinge of nausea now when I'm asked to revere the flag. That flag has come to stand for a lot of repulsive things these days, so why SHOULD I hold in any kind of regard?

[Buzz Clik]

42. Man, I like this quote:

"Our flag has been hijacked by the Republican Party to stand for all sorts of things the Founding Fathers never wanted it to stand for."

Amen.

[DirkGently]

44. Don't say it because I do NOT "pledge allegiance to the flag." Our allegiance is owed to each other.

[Buzz Clik]

45. Good point, and that was where I was going with this thread:

The "liberty and justice for all" is a notion of community. That notion is totally lost in the current climate on the right.

[DirkGently]

46. Yes. Their notion of loyalty is "obedience." How 'bout a pledge to work for the common good instead?