Why can't I find a single person to do a FullTime tech job in Boston?

[Soral]

This is a 2-pronged post.

#1. I hear people complain about the job market.... In my opinion... and based on some facts (I can't find them right now) But technologies jobs have more openings than there are qualified candidates to fill them.

#2. I have a technology generalist job open in Boston, and I want someone right out of college.... For the life of me, I can't find 1 single qualified person.


What are the reasons for this...???

[wtmusic]

1. What does it pay? nt

[meegbear]

2. I'm a single old (45) person in the Boston area ...

too bad I'm not qualified.

[RandomThoughts]

11. LOL

That's cute :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. +1000 n/t

[Uta]

211. +++++ DUDE!+++++++ nt

[EFerrari]

3. Is age discrimination legal in Boston?

[coffeenap]

4. Ageism?? Just sayin... Nt

[Soral]

9. Are you all so naive?

Hey, I want to place the best person for the best job, I don't care if you are 150 years old, or are a purple muslim hippie.

BUT, companies will always have a person in mind... and will look for that at the cost of rejecting others who may be qualified.


But the bigger question remains... where are all the young tech people?

[TBF]

17. "purple muslim hippie"?

really?

[EFerrari]

23. Naive? No. n/t

[Godhumor]

31. Ooh, how about a knave?

Are you a boy servant?


...


What, I like word associations.

[EFerrari]

50. Naif, nave & ingle.

It's funny how the innocent and the naughty get channeled into the same words. It was an art form in SH's theater, your Worship.

[jtown1123]

25. What kind of tech job? If we knew more, we could hypothesize better

[Soral]

29. generalist... hungry person looking to start (not too low) and work up

a college grad with some .net and SQL looking to learn many skills and grow.

[Matariki]

41. Seriously - what the fuck is with that 'young person' shit.

It you need someone with .net and SQL - what in god's name does that have to do with their age? Are you also requiring the person have a penis?

I find your post EXTREMELY offensive.

[bluestate10]

76. Recent college grads are likely to have up to date training in the specific areas

that the poster specified. Older Techies with that specific set of skills are most likely gainfully employed and highly paid. I understand why the OP is caught up on the young part, that may be the only group that can be worked in, given the specific nature of the skillset. Not all companies have large salary budgets, the OP has to fit a person that has suitable skills into a salary slot. Sounds like the person will have extensive growth opportunities. I don't view what the OP is asking for as ageism.

[Matariki]

83. First off, recent college grad does not automatically == 'young person'.

Second - people working in the tech industry also have 'up to date training'. And finally - the OP has answered a number of posts indicating that his 'client' is the one looking for a 'young person'. His words. And that is an illegal hiring practice.

[blondeatlast]

257. +1. nt

[9thkvius]

291. I got my degree at age 37

and I just completed my Network+ certification at age 40. So the whole "young" thing does seem to be a bit weird, unless the employer is using it as code for "someone we don't have to pay much".

[SharonAnn]

191. When I was still working in tech, college grads were a year or more behind us.

Really.

We were up-to-date on the latest technology, were actively using it, and had experience behind us.

If what you want is a cheap employee so that you can give them "opportunity", just say that you're looking for a cheap employee who'll accept "pie in the sky, bye and bye."

[The Straight Story]

254. Same experience here, college grads were always behind the times

45 here, and programming in .net/sql and mysql/php (two different projects). When I apply for jobs they ask for an 'expert' or 'sr' developer with about 5-10 years' experience and a college degree (hmmm how does that work for things like .net 4, etc??)

[JeffersonChick]

243. Ageism? More likely credentialism

I feel compelled to add my $.02

I know that college degrees are a dime a dozen these days. Nevertheless, it's not necessarily an accurate indicator of how competent and talented a person is. The best tech guy I've ever known never went to college, he is self-taught. He started taking apart computers when he was in 10th grade to see how they work. He was fascinated with computers, had the innate desire to learn, so he taught himself. He didn't go to college because he didn't see the need to spend thousands upon thousands for school if he could learn independently.

There are many others like him. Perhaps you might try taking out the college requirement and see what you get. Otherwise, you might turn away the next Bill Gates (who didn't have a college degree either, until fairly recently).

[Mimosa]

246. Exactly!

Some of the most experienced creative and techie people do not have degrees.

[TorchTheWitch]

255. Ageism because the OP originally said "young"

So no, they aren't just looking for a recent college grad, they want a recent college grad who is young.

[lukasahero]

91. young person = the pay sucks

And that's why the OP can't find anyone.

[wtmusic]

184. +1 - someone OP can take advantage of. nt

[blondeatlast]

258. Yep. nt

[musette_sf]

192. + 1

you are correct

[tammywammy]

195. +1 n/t

[Mimosa]

245. Yes. I smell age discrimination.

There are plenty of tech experts in their 40s and 50s.

I'm guessing the OP doesn't want to pay a good salary or offer benefits.

[LearnedHand]

301. Euphemism for "I don't want to pay very much"

[jtown1123]

47. I know a lot of tech pple are in Northern Calif. Why don't you

Post the job at BU, Harvard, BC etc. I bet you would find many recent grads who are dying to land that first job. I am still puzzled why the person has to be "young." Why young? I know the pay is probably lousy but there are many qualified people who would go entry level again to get back inthe job market who would do a kick ass job at half the price.

[bluestate10]

82. I seriously doubt that BU, Harvard or BC Techies with the skillset mentioned

are still looking for jobs. Most likely they have multiple offers in hand. Wall Street has soaked up the skillset that is desired for more than a decade. With health records being computerized, insurance companies and big hospitals are likely grabbing what is left after Wall Street is done. I also seriously doubt there are many older people that can travel and work odd hours with the skillset available. You should not generalize, the skillset being asked for is a highly specific one. The OP seems to need a person that can step in and hit the ground running, not a person that does have Tech skills, but not the specific set of skills that are needed.

[jtown1123]

101. I honestly don't know much about those skills he/she wanted

but you make it sound like highly qualified and sought after candidates have these skills. If they have tons of offers and higher paid opportunities elsewhere, I can see how the head hunter is having difficulty finding people. Anyways, moving beyond the only schools I could think of off the top of my head in the area, I know tons of people right out of school that would move to just about any city they had a job offer in. Maybe the OP is only looking at local candidates instead of broadening the search.

[bluestate10]

144. The skillset is highly specific. Unfortunately Wall Street looks for those

skills and basically buy them up. Maybe 5% at most of american workers have the needed skillset, I doubt that any are unemployed.

[LooseWilly]

242. You are soundly highly defensive...

I am about 40, with some SQL skills... and as for the .net...

"By providing you with a comprehensive and consistent programming model and a common set of APIs, the .NET Framework helps you to build applications that work the way you want, in the programming language you prefer, across software, services, and devices." (http://www.microsoft.com/net/overview.aspx)

That sounds like it's essentially a platform like Eclipse is for Java...

I was, until very recently unemployed, but ... not being a "young person" probably wouldn't get a second glance?

(Before you get all cocksure that I've proven your point... I was unemployed until I took a class to qualify myself to prepare taxes... which is what I'm doing now. My SQL and Java and JBoss and UNIX skills are now as useful to me as dingleberries... because of HR people like the OP)

Maybe the OP, and you and your ilk who have obviously slurped from the same "reality slushie" might want to consider re-thinking the venues in which you advertise looking for employees... or, if that would just be too much work... could you at least do us all the favor of ceasing and desisting with your whining about how hard your work is?... we're not buying it.

[gkhouston]

197. +1000. I'm a stay-at-home mom trying to re-enter the job market.

Doesn't matter that I can kick butt in C++ and was even a good assembly language programmer in days of yore, the ads are usually looking for 5 years of experience in newer technology. What am I supposed to do? Teach myself the newer stuff and then invent work history to account for the knowledge? The attitude change in employers over the last few decades is amazing. When I was interviewing for my first job out of college, there were oil companies who wanted to hire me because one of my majors was electrical engineering and geophysicists were scarce at the time. They were willing to teach me the geology because I already understood the math. No one does any training any more.

[MadMaddie]

212. What about bartering some skill that you do have for

someone that is skilled in the technology that you want to learn?

Companies don't want to train because it hurts their bottom line.

[gkhouston]

222. The problem isn't the training--most of the languages I've already learned are self-taught.

The problem is a lack of documented work experience for the new things I learn. The ads I've seen for entry level positions are specifically limited to recent grads, so I can't even manage it by going back to entry level. When companies were willing to train people, resumes were still read by people, so my experience plus the new languages might have gotten me a first interview. The way things are now, a computer will toss my resume before anyone ever sees it.

As for the companies' bottom lines, maybe they wouldn't have trouble filling positions if the invested in their employees instead of treating them as disposables. Fruitless recruiting searches and a constant turnover in employees has a cost, too.

[MadMaddie]

296. I hear ya and I agree with you

I think it should be illegal what many of the companies are doing.

[bluestate10]

72. You are looking for a highly specific skill set. I can now see your dilemma.

Older Techies that have that combination of skills are likely employed and highly paid. You can try sending out feelers to southern or midwestern universities in an attempt to find an upcoming grad with the skills that is willing to relocate to Boston.

[jtown1123]

Yeah, or people from upstate NY. I know there are good tech schools

up there with pretty lean job opportunities. I guess the market it pretty tight in Boston.

[Xithras]

295. Young, straight out of college, & .Net? There's your problem!

Very few colleges teach .Net to CS students, and very few self-taught/motivated programmers learn the MS .Net platform. Like Java, it's now considered a "mature" platform (which is a codeword for "less relevant every day"). Java is enjoying a little bit of a renaissance because of its relationship with Android, but .Net has had no equivalent push recently.

Young college students tend to be idealists. They want to found the next Facebook, Groupon, Google, or Mint. None of those sites are based on .Net, and most young developers would laugh you out of the room if you suggested writing a startup web or mobile app on the .Net platform with MS-SQL. Rails? Cassandra? JQuery? You'd have them lined up out the door.

Your problem is that your understanding of the knowledge held by modern college students is badly outdated. We had a flood of MS programmers enter the market in the 90's, when companies were simply looking for anyone capable of coding in ANY language. That flood rapidly died off following the dotcom bubble burst, and most colleges stopped teaching MS specific technologies entirely in the early 2000's, so that segment never really recovered. The skilled .Net programmers are in their 30's and 40's today. The younger generation of programmers are working with newer languages that have been slowly displacing .Net in the web world.

Many of these students will quickly become disillusioned with the idea of working at a startup, and will look toward taking a more "menial" position writing reports and production applications in a corporation. At that point, many will learn .Net simply because it has a substantial codebase and there are plenty of jobs in that market. Most of those young programmers won't hit that point for YEARS after their graduations though.

I teach CS students every day. None of my students are learning the skills you're looking for.

You may as well be looking for a "young, straight out of college COBOL programmer". Good luck with that!

[Aerows]

307. Hungry? SQL DBA's aren't hungry

In other words, "I don't want to pay you much, despite the fact that as a SQL DBA/Systems Admin you can get paid better working somewhere else."

[Matariki]

38. I bet you can't find someone because of your crap attitude.

Good luck with that.

[bluestate10]

88. Not exactly true.

The OP may in fact be a difficult person to work for, but the skills that are required are highly specific skills. Only a small percentage of new college grads have the skills needed. Older Techies that have the skills needed most likely DON'T need a job.

[Matariki]

99. Given that the OP didn't post a single skill the job requires - your post makes little sense.

In fact, the only thing the OP said about the actual job is that it's for a 'technology generalist'. Whatever *that* is, it sounds exactly opposite of your assertion that it 'requires highly specific skills'. How did you arrive at that conclusion anyway?

[Aerows]

308. LOL - that's exactly it...

...and isn't willing to pay for the proper skill set. I don't work cheap, and no one with that skill set will when we can go down the street and make a lot more.

[notadmblnd]

65. training for skills that can't be off-shored?

[bluestate10]

90. Seems that the OP is trying NOT to offshore the job. nt.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

299. Or maybe trying to justify plans to offshore the jobs

Ya think?

[bluestate10]

70. Try readjusting your requirement to cover healthy, single, energetic older people.

There are some, but not many in the Boston Tech market. The market for Techies in the region is close to full employment, as you are finding out. Either look for the older person with qualities that you need, except for age. You are a bit late to get Boston area Tech upcoming college grads, they most likely have jobs in hand. I think I understand what you want, a person that can travel and is energetic, does not have constraints like a spouse and children. There are a select few single older Techies that meet your requirement, but not many.

[bergie321]

96. where are all the young tech people?

India or Wall Street. Why would an intelligent person work hard in school to do a high tech job when their wages are suppressed by H1b visa holders and outsourcing when an entry level Wall Street job pays more than a techie will ever earn?

[CLANG]

108. TECH is pretty broad - what platform, languages, software are you using?

[sendero]

248. Maybe they saw..

... how the compensation for their work was being driven to less than the (rather difficult, most people CANNOT DO THIS WORK) work is worth by outsourcing and such, and chose not to go into such fields.

[LaurenG]

278. Wishing they knew who wanted to hire them.

I have a friend who used to come here who was looking. Let me know if you want me to have him contact you.

[elehhhhna]

293. India, baby. Catch the wave.

[Aerows]

306. They have jobs

that pay them what they are worth. Sorry, that's the facts.

[Canuckistanian]

52. He isn't EXCLUDING anyone. He's just WONDERING where the young techs are

Jeeze, some people are so easy to offend.

[EFerrari]

62. "I want a young guy/girl"

[Canuckistanian]

113. Looks like those words were edited out

They weren't there when I first read it.

[EFerrari]

116. Now replaced by "I want someone right out of college".

lol

[bluestate10]

93. Older Techies that have the specific skillset that the OP is requiring

and can step in running on day 1 are highly unlikely to be looking for work, and to top off, are highly compensated.

[ecstatic]

5. Question--are people applying and getting turned down due to

not being qualified? Just curious.

[Soral]

18. There is no where to apply, HR in most companies don't know how to hire anymore

Which is part of the problem our economy faces.

Companies want to hire, but there is sooooooooo much red tape in HR, that it takes forever, and you have an HR girl looking for a skill-specific specialist, something the HR person doesn't know anything about... how can they know if the person is right?

HR is a major stalling problem in this job recovery for America.

[sharp_stick]

27. If there is nowhere to apply

it may just explain your lack of applicants no?

Damned HR girls... just not young enough anymore. ;-)

[OhioChick]

73. ............

:rofl:

[geardaddy]

179. ......

HR girls, lmao

[Uta]

214. !!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! nt

[blondeatlast]

259. LOL! nt

[prolesunited]

58. Yes all that pesky red tape

I bet if we just let companies do whatever they wanted, everyone would have a job.

Yes, let's do away with HR. They are bringing the country to its knees.

[MineralMan]

61. An HR "girl?" What? You have children working in HR?

How interesting. Truly.

[Godhumor]

64. ...did you just blame HR for a slow recovery?

Um, OK.

[Gormy Cuss]

69. "an HR girl?"

Really? Are the males in those departments "HR boys?"

Another vote for the OP being bullshit. If you can't find entry level tech people in the Boston area, you're no more qualified than that "HR girl."

[geardaddy]

180. I think someone's been watching too much Mad Men.

:rofl:

[Yavin4]

199. She's the Reason for the Recession?

[geardaddy]

251. She would cause the opposite to happen I would think.

:D

[LoZoccolo]

79. "HR girl" - STRIKE TWO! n/t

[bluestate10]

97. Try doing an end around HR. Put up the job on internet job sites.

Be very clear what the skillset requirements are. And if you need a highly energetic, motivated person that can work long hours and on weekends, be clear on requirements. Also, be clear that you WILL reject anyone that does not meet your criteria. I suggest that you drop the young requirement, as long as the person can meet the time requirements that you have and is affordable and does not require training, they should apply and get seriously considered by you. Good luck, given the skillset you need I see why you are having a problem filling the job.

[Uta]

215. An end around HR might be risky

The OP should run her opening announcement by the "HR girl", if only to keep her company from being recipient of an unwanted discrimination suit.

[TheKentuckian]

141. If there is nowhere to apply then it would seem very premature to call out there is a problem with

candidates.

Sounds like you don't have the "ideal" candidate on your roster, in the market, and looking for entry level work while fitting the guidelines rather than any reason to think there is any lack of qualified candidates.

You might have to post it.

[uppityperson]

147. First ageism, now sexism. You are something.

"you have an HR girl"

[EFerrari]

149. No wonder the job "can't" be filled. n/t

[wtmusic]

176. Alright, alright...as long as they're white, he doesn't care. nt

[SoCalDem]

181. "...HR girl..." Let me guess, you think "Mad Men" is a weekly documentary

:rofl:

Do you have a P.O. Box?

some will probably want to send you some Wisconsin Palm Tree seeds:)

[geardaddy]

188. lol

I thought the same thing!

[blondeatlast]

260. LOL again--this thread is destined to become a classic! nt

[musette_sf]

194. "HR 'girl'"?

:rofl:

You mean, once Resumix rejects all the resumes that don't pass the arbitrary/dumb machine keyword/phrase threshold, the "HR 'girl'" is so unqualified for the position that s/he doesn't know what to do with what's left in the pool?

"HR is a major stalling problem", yeah right.

Let us know when that HR girl gets around to finding those young recent college grads with just less than enough experience for the job - the ones who are "hungry" enough for $10/hour.

[jtown1123]

6. Why not reach out to colleges? H/e why are you seeking a "young" person?

[county worker]

7. You don't give many facts.

What is the job title and job description and what does it pay? What are the hours, were is it located? What are the working conditions and benefits?

[Soral]

21. This isn't a job board... I didn't want to turn it into that... BUT, if you really want to know

email me.....

[e-mail]

[eShirl]

32. is it a temp agency?

(task management dot com)

just curious; I don't have those skills

[Soral]

39. no, I am a FT headhunter

I help executives/directors find candidates their HR department is too dumb or incapable of doing

[ecstatic]

56. you should really delete your post with personal info (email)

before they see it and get offended. Just some friendly advice.

[louslobbs]

143. Wow.......you just described yourself

Dumb and incapable. Do you also shrink heads and have a blow gun that shoots poison darts? LOL
Lou

[gkhouston]

198. Add "lazy". "DU, please fill this req for me. I'll keep the bonus." n/t

[county worker]

77. I find it hard to believe that you can't fill a position honestly.

If you want to make the point you can't fill a job you should be willing to give the specifics. You want to make some point that can't be refuted by not telling the whole story. It is dishonest.

[bluestate10]

109. The skillset that the OP is looking for is a highly specific, refined skillset.

I seriously doubt that 5% of workers in the USA meet the requirement. The OP has to present a person that is ready to run, not someone that will need training. Older Techies that meet the requirement are unlikely to be unemployed, or even looking for a job. Believe me, if a person with the skillset required wanted to leave a job, his or her boss would likely kiss their ass to keep them.

[Matariki]

119. You keep saying this over and over. Are you psychic, or privy to secret info from the OP?

Because no where did they post any job requirements or skills needed.

Yet you keep repeating that a "highly specific, refined skillset" is needed.

WTF?

[jtown1123]

124. The OP did mention the skills in one of his/her responses

[county worker]

131. Then why say it is hard to find someone as if that were the outlier?

[FreeState]

134. I fit the skill set mentioned and I am unemployed - just saying

Im also not just out of college. Im my 40's and on the west coast.

[tammywammy]

196. Here are the specifics

(and a reminder to not post your email on a message board. BTW, even if I had these skills, this is such a crap ad I wouldn't apply.)

Cisco Engineer needed for FT job
I have a full time position open with my top client in Norwalk/Wilton, CT.

I am looking for a strong Cisco engineer to join the team, to work in office using state-of-the-art technology.

Strong Cisco (any certifications are a plus) working specifically with switches, routers, etc... any security experience is a big plus too.

It is a pure Microsoft and Cisco shop... so experience with Active Directory, Exchange, Hyper-V, etc... are all good to have.

Also, the servers are HP Proliant Blades, and IBM blade center.... experience with those would be great as well.

A FANTASTIC BENEFITS PACKAGE IS OFFERED... 401, Health/Vision/Dental insurance, on site gym, etc...

This is a great place to work, with top of the line technology, and great office environment, and definite room for growth.

THIS IS A CAREER POSITION, NOT JUST A JOB.

If you are interested, please reply to this ad, or email me at [e-mail] with your resume, and i will respond back to go over the job in more details, etc.

[Uta]

220. Dude! Really, do NOT post your email addy on a public bb

http://www.coderanch.com/t/12048/Jobs-Offered/careers/Work-new-kind-recruiter-NY

excerpt:

2 is my father's recruiting firm, which is just the two of us. It is an extremely personal company, who works closely with everyone we contact.

I am a 24 year old kid who has been around the IT recruiting world since the late 80's doing data entry. I know what I am suppose to do, and more importantly, I know what you want me to do.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

206. .net and SQL can be picked up at local community colleges...

one does not need a degree from MIT to do this work. But keep repeating that this skill set is "highly specific, refined," and maybe it will come true.

OP, I believe your post is bullshit; regardless, check local community colleges and post to Craigslist.

[negativenihil]

8. Beats me...

...but uh what are you looking for? can i send you my resume? I'm right in Somerville/Cambridge

[Morning Dew]

10. LOL.

I'd wager this thread gets thronged.

[eShirl]

young people saw older out-of-work techs and trained for something else

What can a young person do that an older person can't?

[sharp_stick]

12. Probably because you're advertising

for a "young person" and most people realize that's:

1: Illegal
or
2: A front looking for a hot chick that you can stare at all day.
or
3: You aren't paying enough to make that horrible commute worth it.

[shraby]

13. Something just doesn't ring true about the op.

[louslobbs]

146. Yeah, my story is, it was probably written just to get some

reactions from people and in that, it has had minor success.
Lou

[louslobbs]

151. Just look at this thread, I wrote about the suffering of poor people

and I got a mere 46 replies, this one is on fire and gets up wards of 150 lol and it's most likely BS. Can't wait to watch dancing with the stars instead of working toward beating the Republicons trying to send us all to the poor house.
Lou

[Uta]

221. Sharing that email addy . Yep. bad idea

http://www.coderanch.com/t/12048/Jobs-Offered/careers/Work-new-kind-recruiter-NY

excerpt:

2 is my father's recruiting firm, which is just the two of us. It is an extremely personal company, who works closely with everyone we contact.

I am a 24 year old kid who has been around the IT recruiting world since the late 80's doing data entry. I know what I am suppose to do, and more importantly, I know what you want me to do.

[Uta]

225. I find it interesting that the OP......

has been doing IT work since he was 4 years old.

[greyl]

240. His age of 24 was posted in 2007, so he was born in 1983.

Apparently born on in an office and began doing data entry before 1st grade.
lol.

[blondeatlast]

261. This thread is classic. nt

[Amerigo Vespucci]

14. What's more important to you..."a young guy/girl" or "qualified"...

...and why is it important for you to have both? Why isn't qualified enough? Maybe "the reasons for this" are that if you're advertising based on age, people view your ad as discriminatory (which it would be).

[bluestate10]

111. Qualified workers with the specific skillset needed are unlikely to be looking for work. nt.

[jtown1123]

121. I think a lot of us are kicking ourselves. Imagine having skills so sought after?

I guess not everyone has the mental capacity for these highly technical jobs.

[lukasahero]

130. Don't be fooled

just because someone is saying it's highly refined, it's not that big a deal. I'm a .Net programmer, as are half my friends. It's a lot easier than programming used to be.

Oh, and if you're doing any kind of programming and can't write SQL (the other skill mentioned), you should get out of the biz right the f now because you'll never get the hard stuff.

The problem isn't that there aren't people here who have these skills, it's that there are a lot of jobs in Boston that need them. (Oh, and outside of Boston as well which means Boston has to pay a LOT better to get us to go in there.)

[jtown1123]

282. Ahh gotcha. Thanks!

[hlthe2b]

15. What about all the older unemployed qualified workers...

Do you really believe that no one over 45 or even in their 50s can do the work/would do the work? NEEDS THE WORK?

Your apparent ageism really depresses me.

[bluestate10]

112. I seriously doubt there are any. nt.

[hlthe2b]

171. WHY?!!! Why do you say that?

The way IT jobs have been outsourced, just playing the odds and there have to be many seeking work.

[WCGreen]

16. I know I know.. OOO Pick me Pick Me...

Because no one wants to work anymore. They have everything handed to them and they would rather be playing the computer games instead of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and get the job done...

If only the government wasn't handing out free food and relief money then this younger generation would get off their butts and do what Americans have done since the beginning.

Was I right, Was I right?

[prolesunited]

46. I think you've nailed it!

[TBF]

19. IBTL

:popcorn:

[ljm2002]

20. Perhaps you should broaden your search...

...and just look for a QUALIFIED person.

Just a thought.

[hfojvt]

43. I hate this idea of a "qualified" person

I am thinking that if I got 3-4 weeks of training that I, myself, could do almost any tech job, at least on the programming side. But this employer apparently expects a guy like me, who already has 8 years of worthless college education, to take a whole bunch more courses with the hopes that some employer will find them useful.

Sorry, not gonna happen. Why should I throw good money after bad?

[ljm2002]

86. Oh I know what you're talking about...

...they use the term "qualified" to mean very specific things, and they expect to find someone who will have experience with the exact alphabet-soup list of technologies they think they need. Oh, and for half the money it's really worth.

I don't blame you at all for not wanting to "retrain"; chances are this person wouldn't hire you (or me, for that matter) anyway as you aren't "young" (which for some reason seems to be one of the "qualifications"). It is sad to hear you refer to your 8 years of college education as "worthless" -- I'm sure you don't mean that except in the narrowest sense of "not helping me to find employment".

In any case, I am in complete agreement that this game of "well why don't you just retrain, yes, that's the ticket" is a sham. There is no reason that people can't learn on the job, particularly people like yourself who are already trained and disciplined in a field. It's just another way that we as individuals are gamed by the system; I see it as similar to the concept of "personal responsibility" which seems only to apply to certain persons and certainly not to the elites, much less to the corporate entities who build unfairness into the very structures (not to mention the corrupt politicians who aid and abet them in their endeavors).

I can't help wondering if the OP was merely flame bait, or sarcasm without the smiley.

[gkhouston]

280. I think companies don't train anymore so they have an excuse to offshore and inshore.

One of the reasons we don't build much of anything in the US anymore (and why most of what we do build is crap) IMO is that worker retention/loyalty has largely evaporated. It's a natural consequence of treated people like kleenex.

[Sanity Claws]

22. "thronged?" Did you mean "pronged?"

I sure hope you didn't "thonged." Having one thong up your butt is enough of a pain in the ass.

[PoliticAverse]

24. Federal Laws Prohibiting Job Discrimination Questions And Answers

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

The ADEA's broad ban against age discrimination also specifically prohibits:

* statements or specifications in job notices or advertisements of age preference and limitations. An age limit may only be specified in the rare circumstance where age has been proven to be a bona fide occupational qualification (BFOQ);
* discrimination on the basis of age by apprenticeship programs, including joint labor-management apprenticeship programs; and
* denial of benefits to older employees. An employer may reduce benefits based on age only if the cost of providing the reduced benefits to older workers is the same as the cost of providing benefits to younger workers.

[Soral]

35. you are missing the point

I know its illegal to discriminate on age.

BUT, when a client calls me, and says "I am looking for a young, recent college grad to do A, B, C"

What am I suppose to do?

Send someone old, that they will reject, and question what I am doing?

Report them to EEOC?

[PoliticAverse]

44. Ask them why they're limiting their request to 'young'?

What would you do if they said they were looking for a "white, recent college grad to do A, B, C" ?

[hatrack]

71. "Young" - iow, cheap

nt

[Matariki]

66. You are supposed to tell them that is an illegal hiring prctice.

To keep you and your ignorant client from getting sued. Professionalism. You are lacking it.

[uppityperson]

152. +100

[RainDog]

+1000

[bluestate10]

118. I understand your problem. Older workers with the skillset that you listed

likely don't need a job, and if they are looking will not settle for a job other than one with top pay. With many highly skilled Techies retiring, companies are looking for people that are going to be around for a decade or more. I can't see a company hiring an older Techie that does not have the specific skills and training the person, that is not feasible in a fast paced environment.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

210. Do you live in some sort of fantasy world in which unemployment...

is not high among older workers? North Carolina's unemployment rate is over 10%, and I know a depressing number of skilled older workers making $10/hr in crap customer service jobs, trying to ride out the recession. Enrollment at local community colleges is booming, for young and old. And, in case you forgot, many folks' retirements evaporated during the Wall Street heist, and are delaying retirement. The housing market crash has also delayed many retirements.

During the boom, turnover in the IT industry was pretty rapid -- "a decade or more" was not the norm. Now that the economy is in the crapper, people are holding on to their jobs longer, but my experience with young tech workers is that they want bigger and better, and will be gone once it comes along.

As I said upthread, .net and SQL are NOT that "highly skilled, refined" -- community college courses would suffice.

For someone who posts with so much authority, it's pretty amazing how wrong you are. Actually, no it's not.

[blondeatlast]

262. You're supposed to tell them that it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of age--

but you didn't do that, did you?

:nopity:

[NeedleCast]

271. Report them to EEOC?

In short, yes.

[Kennah]

26. I'm a married midlifer (age 43) and ...

... and I seem to encounter nothing but roadblocks.

I apply, I get questions, and when they get a "No, I haven't been doing .NET for 46 years", they stop talking to me.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestate10]

122. I am sure you posted in jest. But the very problem is that the american workforce

is not highly trained technically. Companies don't want to talk to highly motivated workers that don't have the specific skillset that is needed. With competition being what it is, hiring a person that is close and training that person can mean failure for some businesses.

[SharonAnn]

193. So having no one is better?

[gkhouston]

200. That argument is often used and it's bogus. I'll tell you why.

Over the years, I've programmed in imperative, assembler, functional, object-oriented, and scripting languages. I've lost track of how many editors, debuggers, and operating systems I've had to learn the quirks of. I'm not unique--I'm an experienced, well-trained computer scientist. The notion that I can't learn yet another language on the job is absurd--I've sure as hell done it before, and quickly. The notion that I can't even be considered for employment because I don't have documented work experience in a language I've taught myself is wasteful, especially when I keep hearing about the shortage of "highly trained" people out there.

Any business that can afford to spend 3 or 6 or 9 months trying to find the "perfect" person for a position can afford to spend a month or two getting an experienced techie up to speed.

[sendero]

249. Exactly..

... .NET is the EASIEST thing I've ever learned. Programming is getting EASIER, not harder, with the advent of libraries that do everything and languages like C# that make coding a lot less work.

People who know what they are doing hire PEOPLE with the right background and attitude, not waste their time looking for someone who already has the code they want on a thumb drive.

If it helps, I've been doing this a long time and this problem is not new, most people have no fucking clue how to find a solid staff that can get their work done.

[RobinA]

216. Yeah, I'm Not Buying That

I do not work in tech, but the same thing happens in my field. I'm employed, by the way. But you run into, "I've done this, this, this and this in the field for the past ten years." All highly related. The response is, "Oh, but you haven't done that, we couldn't possibily hire you, and especially without an XYZ certification." XYZ, being a new certification some certification mill just ginned up last year and requiring a two year list of classes and several thousands to pay for the two years of old wine in new bottles with a brand new name so it's not obvious that you learned all this stuff at the beginning of your Masters program.

[BobbyBoring]

273. Bingo

And it's going to get worse. We have kids graduating from high school that can't read for Christ sakes. As someone said up thread, most of the highly qualified techies have chosen to become "Quants" on Wall St.

One of the arguments you never hear about is what if these people were using their skills in a manner that helped society as a whole instead of figuring out algorithms for Brand X corn flake stocks? Might be a different country~

[OhioChick]

28. "I want a young guy/girl"

Why is this?

Less pay, or what?

[bluestate10]

128. Does not necessarily mean less pay.

The job may require a person that can work odd hours and travel extensively. Younger people typically are easier to kit in those type of jobs.

[amandabeech]

232. Put in the "can work odd hours and travel extensively."

I'm 55 and already work odd hours. Traveling is not a problem.

Yeah, and I'm motivated and outwork the kids sometimes because I don't have to be entertained by several various electronic means at once while I work. When I'm working, I work. What an idea!

I'm not a techie, but if I were, this guy wouldn't hire me or anyone like me even with fresh SQL or .net. That's what happens when you're old.

[blondeatlast]

263. Exactly--thinking people can figure that phrasing out, wonder why the OP and bs can't? nt

[Matariki]

33. Why do you particularly want a YOUNG person?

Isn't it illegal to base your hiring on a person's age?

[Soral]

40. "I" don't care how old.... but the person who hired me to find the candidate does

[Matariki]

48. If you were any good at you supposed 'head hunter' job - you'd advise them on the illegality of that

[hlthe2b]

173. +1,0000000000000

I am appalled at so many posts on this thread. Blatant age discrimination of the worst kind.

[bluestate10]

133. You may want to find out why the person wants a young person.

If you have not already. Why wouldn't a single, healthy 40 year old that can work for another 25 years minimum and is willing to accept the salary not do? I can envision why an older married person or person with a history of illness are not acceptable, but a healthy, single 40 year old who can work long hours, has good social skills and can travel should be. But, having written what I wrote, your skill requirements are rather daunting.

[Matariki]

161. You do realize that hiring based on marriage status is as illegal as age discrimination?

Or health history for that matter.

Did I miss the post with any skill requirements? All I saw was *some* .net and sql - hardly daunting.

[blondeatlast]

264. Then tell them that insisting on that phrasing is discriminatory and

come up with alternate phrasing as is suggested above.

[sinkingfeeling]

34. 'Technology generalist' is about as non-descriptive as you can get. Technology in what?

Information? Space? Medical? Manufacturing?

[bluestate10]

136. The OP narrowed the skillset needed. The skillset is rather narrow,

but a person that meet the skillset can be utilized to perform many types of information technology and data management functions.

[itsrobert]

36. I am not getting what age has to do with the job?

Is there some heavy lifting on thumb drives and Cd's involved?

[Matariki]

53. ...

:rofl:

[hunter]

37. It's a free market and nobody wants to work for you.

Next question?

[City of Mills]

42. Is it entry level?

Just curious...I'd definitely contact BHCC or one of the universities and see if their student activities dept. would put up a bulletin board flyer...

[csziggy]

45. Young people see all the unemployed older IT workers

And don't want to end up the same way in 10-20 years.

Why should they go into the field with employers having the attitude in the OP?

[coalition_unwilling]

49. Your OP is nominally discriminatory based on age. As such, you

should edit it or request it be pulled down\deleted.

I'm sure you didn't set out deliberately to discriminate.

[Soral]

80. took your advice... but in reality

This is what hiring managers at companies say.

They know what they want... whither they are allowed to say it or not is another issue


Same thing with SCOTUS and managers of sports teams.... they know what they want, even if theey have to interview the token candidate to meet quota... they know what they want before hand.

[coalition_unwilling]

89. Thank you for your edit. It reads more clean too, btw, without the

complicating factor of age written into it.

I'm a little sensitive on this topic, since I'm over 50, have extensive experience in IT and know that on at least one occasion I have been the victim of age discrimination. No way to prove it, of course, and it would have simply been a 'he said\she said' dispute.

BTW, I can't help you b/c I'm stuck in an underwater mortgage in California and can't easily relocate.

[TorchTheWitch]

238. It doesn't matter what they say, it's your job to adhere to the law

If that means informing your client that it is illegal to discriminate based on age and that you won't be doing so on their behalf as it is just as illegal for them to discriminate based on age as it is for you to do it for them by recruiting using that same discriminatory criteria. What these discriminatory clients are doing in telling you these discriminatory things they want in a potential person to hire is passing that illegal buck onto YOU so they can't be blamed for the discrimination.

Just how in the world did you get this headhunter job in the first place when you don't know the law concerning discriminatory hiring practices and are actually willing to take on the responsibility of their discriminatory wishes by actually doing the illegal bit by recruiting based on those wishes? These discriminatory clients are asking you to do something illegal that will get only YOU and YOUR company in trouble while their hands are kept clean, and your response is basically "duh, ok".

It's very simple. You tell the client what it is about their wishes that is illegal and that you will not be recruiting based on their discriminatory wishes as that would be illegal for YOU to do and you won't open the door to get YOU and YOUR company into that hot water. You will only recruit legally and forward those resumes to the client and let the CLIENT do the illegal bit by rejecting those candidates that don't fit their discriminatory wishes thereby making any illegal discriminatory hiring decisions THEIR responsibility.

Good Lord, I never spent a single hour in a headhunter's job, and even I know how to handle this, yet somehow you don't. Sorry, but I think you're full of it.

[Hannah Bell]

51. pretty obviously: the pay/benefits you're offering is too low for the conditions you're

offering.

that's the standard economic explanation when jobs don't get filled in a market.

do you have a different hypothesis?

you seem remarkably reluctant to explain the job & the pay you're offering.

[Soral]

81. no, you are not understanding... its not that we are getting the wrong candidates to apply.

There is no where to apply!

Get it?

[Hannah Bell]

85. no.

[Soral]

92. Again, its not age, and its not anything I am doing wrong... it is

The fact that this company that has hired me is incapable of finding people on their own... even with their massive HR department.

[bergie321]

106. I thought

You said that they hired YOU to find them someone? Your story sounds sketchy.

[Soral]

114. it is

[Matariki]

139. Hello. You are saying your own OP is sketchy???

You owe us all an explanation!

Por favor.

[geardaddy]

185. This is pure comedy gold!

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

265. I'm bookmarking this baby; yes, indeed! nt

[TorchTheWitch]

239. no they aren't - they're passing the illegality part onto you

They know EXACTLY what they are doing in hiring you to do illegal shit FOR them. And for some bizarre reason you're doing it and can't figure out how not to.

Nope, not buying it.

[blondeatlast]

267. Yep--and OP knows they are but CYA instead of telling them. He'd be party

to a discrimination suit (and for any employment discrimination lawyers out there, I'm an experienced paralegal looking to get the hell out of AZ... ;))!

[TorchTheWitch]

292. he'd likely be the only party

which is why the client is passing the buck like this. The client can just deny that they ever requested recruiting being done in any illegal discriminatory manner. The headhunter however would be the one stuck with the evidence that they alone recruited illegally. And is exactly why the client is passing the buck like this - they are trying to get what they want while keeping their own hands legally clean.

This is all what makes me very suspicious that the OP is full of it. This kind of stuff is recruiting/hiring 101, and no actual headhunter a) wouldn't know the law, b) would actually voluntarily break it thereby getting themselves into trouble, c) wouldn't know WHY the client is using them to break the law for them, and d) wouldn't know how to deal with the client about this issue.

[Beaverhausen]

94. Where are you looking?

What is this - "there's nowhere to apply" crap? If there's nowhere to apply, then you have to be looking somewhere.

I smell a rat.

[Soral]

100. You aren't getting it

A company has an opening.

They can't afford monster/dice to pay for a job posting... its on their own website, but they don't advertise it because their HR is incompetent.

[Beaverhausen]

104. I get it - they hired you to find someone. Where are you looking?

and I fail to believe putting an ad on Monster is that expensive.

[Matariki]

107. They can't afford to post on Monster or Dice - but they can afford you - a supposed Head Hunter?

Fishier by the minute.

Do tell, can they afford to make payroll?

[lukasahero]

117. "'Curiouser and curiouser', said Alice."

So much of this sounds like BS.

Of course, I get headhunters sending me jobs that "need an experienced, WEB Telephony software developer who has deep knowledge of telephony" when I have no telephony on my resume anywhere in the 15 years I've been doing tech.

And these headhunters call HR incompetent? :eyes:

BTW - if anyone in the Boston area does have telephony experience, that email just came today - I can forward it if interested. :hi:

[Matariki]

120. Yep, Same here. LOL

I get email from recruiters almost daily who clearly lack reading comprehension skills. Not the sort of people I'd want representing me in a job search.

[blondeatlast]

268. Yep--but this thread is destined to be a classic. nt

[bergie321]

110. If a company

Cannot afford to post a job on Dice (around $100 I think), why would I work for that company?

[devilgrrl]

219. It doesn't smell like rats. It...

[Rex]

54. Lemme know if you ever need someone in Texas.

[bemildred]

55. Perhaps you need a better search algorithm.

Boston is a big place, and near lots of technical centers, etc. I suppose you've heard of MIT?

[gkhouston]

209. Does Knuth have a recipe for snipe? n/t

[MineralMan]

57. What is the job description, if you don't mind my asking.

What does your technology generalist have to know. Also, what is the pay, generally, that you're offering?

[prolesunited]

59. Do you work for yourself

or a company? How old are you?

[Uta]

226. He works for his dad.

http://www.coderanch.com/t/12048/Jobs-Offered/careers/Work-new-kind-recruiter-NY

excerpt:

2 is my father's recruiting firm, which is just the two of us. It is an extremely personal company, who works closely with everyone we contact.

I am a 24 year old kid who has been around the IT recruiting world since the late 80's doing data entry. I know what I am suppose to do, and more importantly, I know what you want me to do.

[Uta]

229. I wonder if Bluestate10 is his Dad? nt

[blondeatlast]

270. Hmmm...

Good find, Uta. Interesting...

[bluestate10]

60. The Boston Tech market in some specialties is at full employment, or close to it.

Try aiming to hire older people that have the qualifications and are willing to accept your salary range as long as it is fair, you can sweeten the offer with bonus possibilities if your business does well. I would avoid stock options based job offers.

[xilet]

67. Similiar

I will say I have had similar experiences. We have been looking to find someone in college or just out of it for a unix admin internship. Pretty much the only requirements are some experience with Unix or Linux and the ability to communicate with other human beings (neither of which are overly strict).

We have been to a dozen or so college job fairs and had the ad out on craigslist and such. I have personally talked to at least 75-100 interested people who really did want the job.(Major tech schools, not podunk colleges).

Of those 20 had ever even seen Linux
Of those 20, 5 had ever used it outside of a couple of labs in school.

Of those 5 we had:
1 person who had installed it once at home.
1 person who had run a lab that used it, however he personally had never deal with the OS
1 person who was *very* overqualified and with it being a part time job with the intent to train on the job it would not have worked for him.
1 person who would have been a good fit but got a full time job offer first.
And one person we hired (and was great) until he moved away, but he was also in his thirties going back to school after getting out of the military.

Of all of those people only a very small handful were 'hobbyists' or had done any computer work or tinkering out of what was required for school work.
Being in my late 20's, growing up most of the geeks I knew (myself included) spent time building computers from scrap parts, learning to code for fun, hacking at the operating system to get a better handle of how it works, that sort of thing. I am really not seeing many kids coming up these days that use computers as more then an appliance. And it is fine if that is what it is to them, however I am feeling really disheartened that so many younger people who are training and getting degrees in CS, EE, network administration, etc seem to have no desire to learn more then what classes require.

The one bright side is the gender gap for the graduates I met was narrower then I expected.

Now you kids get off my lawn.

[MineralMan]

74. Internship = shitty pay and no real opportunity for a fulltime hire.

Recent college grads aren't looking for scut work at no pay. Sorry.

[xilet]

75. Correct.

Right, why it was a paid internship looking at both recent grads and currently enrolled students.

I started out with the job as a freshman.

[Uta]

231. The OP started when he was 4.

http://www.coderanch.com/t/12048/Jobs-Offered/careers/Work-new-kind-recruiter-NY

[uppityperson]

154. Where is this internship, what (roughly) does it pay, how long.

I have someone who is seeking such a thing, not sure if would be interested. Yes, does Linux, is working towards Linux admin position.

[Taitertots]

68. You don't pay enough.

It is the most basic labor economics.

[seabeyond]

78. husband has had that issue, too, in amarillo texas. nt

[TBF]

84. Now you want someone "right out of college" rather than "young" -

nice edit.

[Matariki]

87. Well, at least it's not offensive anymore.

Now if the guy would only stop calling adult women 'girls'...

[uppityperson]

155. as in HR girls? I know and agree.

[City of Mills]

95. Does anyone under 40 know how to program in COBOL?

Completely unrelated question/threadjack.

[PoliticAverse]

98. I'm convinced COBOL will outlve the last COBOL programmer... n/t

[hunter]

207. COBOL isn't rocket science.

If you can grok any other primitive language like, say, C, FORTRAN, or hell, even BASIC, you can wrap your mind around COBOL.

IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
      PROGRAM-ID. HELLO-WORLD.
      PROCEDURE DIVISION.
          DISPLAY 'Hello, world'.
          STOP RUN.

Understanding the language is not the problem. Trying to get inside the heads of the dozens of people who modified the code before you is. In that case it really is worthwhile to hire the old guy.

[Ohio Joe]

247. While COBOL is simple... I don't believe your program would run - IEDP

I believe you are still required to code all four divisions. In addition, you have to have someone able to understand and code the JCL. heh, I've trained many many people in JCL, they always have a much harder time with that then the COBOL.

You are correct though, in general the problem is not new code but rather the maintenence of the old code. There is a shit load of old code out there and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Trying to find a bug in a program that has 100+ callled modules and was written in the 70's and has been maintained by a hundred different programmers is one wicked pain in the ass.

Edit - You also really should use "Go Back" and not "Stop Run". On a technical level, it would be the same for a simple program but it is a good habit to get into so you don't screw yourself when doing called modules. :D

[Moral_Imagination]

227. Only if they are in India... n/t

[JVS]

237. My brother does, but that's because he interned somewhere that still used it.

[matt819]

102. Something smells about this

The OP acknowledges in a subsequent post that he doesn't quite know where to post the job. I haven't read the entire thread, but I've seen no mention of pay, and no details about the company.

Overall, sounds to me like the OP hasn't done his homework or advertised the job sufficiently.

[blondeatlast]

272. In other words--the headhunter is incompetent. I concur with that. nt

[slackmaster]

103. It's your deodorant

You'll thank me some day.

[GOPBasher]

105. Perhaps you're paying too low.

I saw in another post that you wanted someone with a BS and who has SQL and .net capabilities. There's no friggin way you can't find that, especially in Boston. There are tons of people who meet those criteria. Maybe you're not paying enough to attract them. Sorry, I don't believe for a second that there aren't enough qualifies people. There are so many tech people out of a job right now and looking. This is ridiculous.

[VoteProgressive]

115. Why right out of college??

[closeupready]

123. Does the job not pay? Because who wants to work for cheapskates.

Nobody I know.

[Matariki]

125. The OP mentioned looking for 'hungry' people.

Maybe it pays in pizza or Cheetos and Coke?

[closeupready]

129. ROFL - that made me snarf.

:rofl: Thanks, I needed that. :hi:

[gkhouston]

201. Dude! Throw in some Doublestuf Oreos and it's a deal!!

:rofl:

[Statistical]

235. Maybe he is looking for someone on the sidewalk with a "will code for food" sign?

[Sivart]

126. Still no info on the pay

You say you are a head hunter, so I can't imagine you are unfamiliar with the red tape of HR.

I think the general consensus is that since you are clearly looking for someone with specific skills, but purposefully want someone with little to no experience, the pay must suck.

This is one of the untold backlashes of the unemployment crisis..... Potential employers are seeking to take advantage of the premiss that we should all just be happy to have any job, and then lumping in hiring someone with no experience, in order to get their work done dirt cheap.

Are you going to tell us what this open position pays?? This information really is key, unless you just want us all to guess.

[closeupready]

132. Inquiring specifically about $$$ is, like, Ground Rule #1 when dealing with headhunters.

Otherwise, you can end up wasting SO MUCH TIME when you find out, after three interviews and days of skills testing, that it pays $20,000 per year.

I cut them NO slack - almost the first question I ask headhunters is how much does the job pay. That he won't answer this, even in a ballpark figure, suggests to me it doesn't pay well.

[WilliamPitt]

127. I'm concerned.

[Ikonoklast]

135. I got 'thronged' by the OP.

I'm now confused.

[Matariki]

138. 2-thronged.

:rofl:

[Ikonoklast]

160. Oh, sure, thanks a lot, go blab about it to EVERYBODY.

Look, I had a few drinks, I was feeling a little vulnerable, there was this new poster I'd never seen before...




Now I just feel used and cheap.

[Matariki]

166. Don't worry....

2-thronged is a classic pick-up line hardly anyone can walk away from...

:rofl:

[Matariki]

137. lol

[canetoad]

140. You should post

The position ad/job description here, exactly as you advertised it. Then we could give you some insight into why you can't find someone to fill the position.

[Dappleganger]

142. Any good headhunter worth their salt would know

better than to post something like the OP here.

I mean, really.

[Matariki]

145. I think DU has an amazing built-in BS detector.

Must be frustrating to tools like that guy that worked for hbGary.

[Dappleganger]

150. Heha, good point...

but there are still some who swallow hook, line and sinker. ;)

[TBF]

172. Yup -

we must all receive the same right-wing hate emails from our elderly relatives. They have a certain pattern that usually involves bigotry and cutting wages in some way ...

[Soral]

148. Well, this thread was a bad idea

I forget.... people attack when they hear honesty.

I DIDN'T DECIDE ANY OF THIS, I AM JUST A WORKER BEE.

/thanks for all the 'advice'

[louslobbs]

156. People speak their own truth when they smell crap.

There's nothing wrong with saying that shit stinks, it's the truth.
Lou

[Godhumor]

157. Oh come on, this will go down as a legendary thread (Not to the harrassing the moon extent...)

n/t

[louslobbs]

168. Yeah, I love a good joke myself

Lou

[blondeatlast]

275. I bookmarked WAY up the page! nt

[Morning Dew]

165. Worker bee, hell.

You're the supposed frickin' headhunter.

Attack when they hear honesty?

More like call out bullshit.

[louslobbs]

169. Ding ding ding, no more phone calls, we have a winner

lol
Lou

[Uta]

233. (he works for his dad.)

http://www.coderanch.com/t/12048/Jobs-Offered/careers/Work-new-kind-recruiter-NY

[Matariki]

241. Ohmygod, he's recruiting for Scientologists!

I have 1 client in Greenwich, CT that is ideal for any smart Java programmer. They give you a simple Java written test that can be finished in 10 minutes, and an interesting personality test as well. Once you do those to tests, if they like what they see, it is 99% of the time a lock for the job.

This thread is so funny. Sorry if the OP was in any way earest, although the whole thing smells of scam. But if not, well don't quit that 9 to 5 gig just yet dude.

[TBF]

174. Since I am a nice person at heart, I will give you a good "bees"

piece to read. That way your time spent here will not be pointless. This is one of the best pieces I have read on the Internet -

Bees by Dimitri Pisarev

I.

The bee belongs to a species of insects; it has no spinal column and its body is divided into three well-defined parts; first, the head, in which are the eyes, antennae and mouth; second, the thorax, to which three pairs of legs are attached underneath and two pairs of wings on the upper side; third, the abdomen, in which are the heart and respiratory apparatus, the digestive system and sexual parts. On each side of its head the bee has two large eyes, consisting of thousands of microscopic facets looking out of a common transparent cornea. With these two eyes, the bee sees small things near it, they are for the bee what microscopes are for us; in order to see in the distance and direct its flight the bee uses three tiny ocelli situated on the upper part of the head. As far as we know from science in its present state of imperfection, man has not the type of eye by which the bee directs its flight. This is probably the only reason why most human judgments and constructions suffer from the short-sightedness of their makers.

As far as we know from science in its present state of imperfection, man has not the type of eye by which the bee directs its flight. This is probably the only reason why most human judgments and constructions suffer from the short-sightedness of their makers.


read the rest here: http://www.electionfraudnews.com/Articles/Bees.htm

[devilgrrl]

224. There isn't a shred of honesty within anything you've written

FRAUD!!!

[rucky]

253. I actually read the position on Dice.

It actually sounds like a good opportunity, and the skill set seems pretty common. Looks like you just posted it yesterday, and I'm pretty sure you'll get a flood of resumes, even though your requirements for college grad and a job performance record are in direct conflict. I'd lift the recent grad requirement and just post it as an entry-level position - it borders on age discrimination they way you have it now.

[blondeatlast]

274. "Headhunter"+"worker bee"? In what universe?

Methinks the problem is you and your "firm."

[Shagbark Hickory]

153. How are you going about finding people? n/t

[hatrack]

158. Morse Code, apparently . . .

:rofl:

[louslobbs]

159. LOL

Lou

[gkhouston]

203. LOL, my guess was JCL. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

162. Your problem is two pronged :

1) you have narrowed your selection criteria to the impossible : a qualified tech person just out of college is almost impossible to find.

2) you have failed to give any description of what 'qualified' is to your thinking...and until you care to define that No. 1 will continue to be a problem.

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

163. Your problem is two pronged : DUPE

Apparently so was my post...

sP

[boppers]

175. The post you had was two pronged!

:rofl:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

187. speaking with a forked tongue will do that from time to time n/t

[louslobbs]

164. Excuse me while I go check my Skippy Peanut Butter to see

if it's the tainted, recalled one.......I'll be right back. lol
Lou

[louslobbs]

167. Nope.......not the Salmonella one......wow, that's a relief.......now

about that job........I know this elephant, never forgets, and will work for peanuts.
Lou

[jp11]

170. I don't follow your posting, 'there is no where to apply' so what is the point of

hiring you to find someone if they won't let you then refer/direct them to the company if 'HR is too incompetent' to setup an application process, offer an email contact, etc.

As for the requirements, all the 'IT' people 'should' have switched majors years ago and anyone going into IT should have gotten out of it or gone for certifications/etc to move up and not be a 'generalist'. Knowing SQL/.net is something some 'new grads' might have, but not likely IMO of IT, but if they have that they have a leg up on many other grads and probably are going to work with a company they may have interned with during school.

The IT industry went to crap years ago and a real position is hard to find(and who'd trust it), so that IMO no one would go into IT anymore unless they planned on continuing on to a master's/phd in computers. Too many 'old' IT workers were tossed out the window for outsourcing/new hires/contract employees I don't know why someone would 'pigeon hole' themselves into an IT degree/position instead of computer science or the like.

[guitar man]

177. it's not paying enough?

:shrug:

Try raising the pay and see of you get a bite ;)

[thelordofhell]

178. Because you're posting here

Instead of here
http://web.mit.edu/

Or here
http://www.bu.edu/

Or here
http://www.emerson.edu/

Or here
http://web.wellesley.edu/web


I think you get the picture now......

[hayu_lol]

189. You ought to raise the base pay to at least...

$2.00/hour. The $1.00/hour you are presently offering is too low, even for hungry students. Sweeten the pot a bit. Offer to pay off some of the applicant's student loans.

Try advertising in the various college newspapers...you know...where the people your client wants, live.

Worker-bees across the country have known for years that American management has it's collective heads up it's ass. This is just more proof.

[boppers]

182. Speaking as a techie who works for a company with openings:

1. Yes, there's a gap in the market.
2. Even in your initial posts, and follow-ups, you failed to clarify the needed qualifications. First it was a "generalist". Then SQL was mentioned, along with .net. For starters, .net is a marketing concept, not a skill... the .net "platform" is a combination of (client-side, and server side) programming languages, applications, and products.

As far as young/college grads go, they don't teach marketing fads, they teach thinking skills... so, fresh out of schooling, they may know some OOP, some C#, some C, some PHP, some Java, some ruby, some perl, some SQL, some ActiveRecord, some jet, etc.... but what they don't know is being such a skilled "generalist" that they know it all, *and* will work for cheap.

[HopeHoops]

183. Right out of college? You aren't expecting much - or aren't paying much.

I used to work in the Boston area. I know there are qualified people there looking for jobs. The "right out of college" line is a pretty clean statement of compensation level.

[catrose]

186. The last time

a hiring manager said to me, "Where are all the good _____?"
I said, "If they've got a job, they're keeping it. No one's going to jump from a higher paying job to a lower paying job. If they don't have a job, they might have (a) moved (particularly from expensive Massachusetts) (b) gone into another field, (c) considered the pay you're offering is not worth putting on an interview suit for, or (d) think it sounds like a scam job, as in "Fresh out! Must know everything! Will be paid minimum wage! Six week contract!"

One reason that it might look like the economy's improving is that more people are dropping out of the workforce; they're not even looking because they feel they'll never get another job. Economists call them "discouraged workers," and they're not counted in the unemployment figures.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lisa0825]

217. This "HR girl" thanks you for your explanation. :-) nt

:evilgrin:

[Bluebear]

202. Gee, it's impossible, as you found out. Better recruit in India!

Whatever.

[leeroysphitz]

204. Boston ain't their kind of town.

Rambling tech why don't you settle down?

[Bluebear]

205. >>>

:spray:

[blondeatlast]

276. Laughing hysterically already, now I've got a stomach cramp!

:rofl:

[HughBeaumont]

281. There ain't no Perl and there ain't nobody like me!

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

284. This thread just gets better and better! Kudos. nt

[gkhouston]

304. Clearly there ain't no Perl... because if there were, there would be more than one way

for the headhunter to fill this position. }(

[ZombieHorde]

208. Holy shit! This is pretty funny. nt

[readmoreoften]

213. Sounds like you want some kind of veteran tech person in a college grad's body.

Why someone out of college? Cheap labor? College grads aren't that qualified yet. If you want someone qualified, why not hire a veteran tech person and pay them a living wage.

[Lisa0825]

218. BINGO!!! nt

[Paulie]

223. Ha, I'm in year 6 of my 2 year degree.. 20+ years experience

I hope to graduate next year, at 40. Think I could slip under the wire? :)

[leeroysphitz]

250. You don't get rich by paying people what they are worth. n/t

[RainDog]

228. you can try posting on the ALA jobs list

because php, sql, etc. are part of training for information sci classes for people in library science.

however, even if you want a young person, you cannot say that and, no neither can the person who's asked you to fill the position. and, yeah, you can report that person. but, since you probably won't, you have to lie and weed out applicants that are not within the age range you want. just as when you discriminate based upon race, when you discriminate based upon age you're also an ass.

if the starting salary is so low that someone cannot afford to live in the area, that might make it harder to fill the position - even with young job seekers who have more flexibility to relocate. The person hunting for someone to fill the job may need to offer relocation money, too - if the company is worth working for, and they want someone to grow with the company, the company can cough up some cash to help someone move.

one company I saw in the recent past was looking for someone with a masters degree to do specific work and the salary was 25k - right by Hyannis Port. No one, apparently, applied for that job with that salary for that area b/c no one can find a place to live on that kind of salary - esp. no one with kids.

the job was re-listed with no salary mentioned. don't know if anyone took the bait - even someone young, fresh out of college, with up-to-date skills - because they can do better and assume anyone offering that little is a crappy place to work and they'll be leaving soon anyway.

[Moral_Imagination]

230. I left IT altogether cause of arrogance like yours....

[Arkana]

234. What exactly do you need in terms of qualifications?

I'm about to turn 26, and I graduated with a Computer Science degree from Providence College. I'm A+ certified, currently going for Network+, and I'm working on a digital forensics grad certificate program.

I've also been unemployed for almost two years.

[Uta]

236. Kick

because this is TEH FUNNY

[JeffersonChick]

244. Ack. I meant to post HERE. (re: credentialism)

So I'm posting this again because I can't find a way to delete the earlier one.

I feel compelled to add my $.02

I know that college degrees are a dime a dozen these days. Nevertheless, it's not necessarily an accurate indicator of how competent and talented a person is. The best tech guy I've ever known never went to college, he is self-taught. He started taking apart computers when he was in 10th grade to see how they work. He was fascinated with computers, had the innate desire to learn, so he taught himself. He didn't go to college because he didn't see the need to spend thousands upon thousands for school if he could learn independently.

There are many others like him. Perhaps you might try taking out the college requirement and see what you get. Otherwise, you might turn away the next Bill Gates (who didn't have a college degree either, until fairly recently).

[itsrobert]

252. Excellent advice

n/t

[gkhouston]

283. True. My sister hired at a company as a second-shift data entry clerk. Her

employer noticed she was bright and hard-working and sent her to training. Repeatedly. She's on senior staff, now. Never did go to college.

[SoCalDem]

294. You might be talking about my oldest son.

He's just turned 37, and has been making a 6-figure income for a decade as the west coast manager of something or other for a very large corporation. He's their "go-to" guy for all things computer-ish. He travels all over the world for his job. His wife is also a 6-figure "computer-nerd"... minimal college for her.

These two learned early-on that being in the right place at the right time, and being willing to move far away & take advantage of every little sideways-move that comes along, can pay off big.

Very early in our son's career, he was working in a rather humdrum job and became telephone buddies with someone in Northern CA, who always enjoyed their business phone interactivity, and he liked my son's "horse-sense" approach to IT problems, so when a job where HE worked, opened up, he called our son. Our son went there , applied & was hired. He worked his way up in about 36 months, and through a series of fortuitous happenings (on of which was the sale of the company & my son being willing to NOT bail ASAP), he ended up where he is.

Success has many sideways steps..

[lumberjack_jeff]

310. Because the primary value of the credential is to save HR work.

They don't want to sort through 10 resumes when they can throw enough arbitrary requirements into the job posting to get it down to one. Or better yet zero, in which case they don't have to do anything except lobby for more H1-b's.

[ieoeja]

256. Cause they want someone with both .NET and SQL experience for an entry level salary.

Most people consider those two separate jobs**. Either alone can pay 6 figures.

Might as well be looking to fill the position of Santa Claus while you're at it.


**Leaving SQL programming to database administrator's is a common mistake by IT management. DBA SQL programming leaves something to be desired. Conversely, SQL programming does require breaking out of the top-down mindset employed in other types of programming like, say, .NET. Which means you want someone with two skillsets that are somewhat opposed to one another.

That said, once I finally figured out how to program SQL appropriately, I started yanking code out of .NET, rewriting it as SQL. Everything runs in a fraction of the time. All my .NET is barely more than a shell user interface program with all the real work being done in SQL. In fact, I mostly farm that out to less experienced programmers now.

If I lived near Boston, or they were okay with long-distance telecomuting, I'd consider the position. But it would have to exceed my current 6 figure salary. Because, as someone with both skillsets, I know how rare and prized I am.

[rox63]

266. You must not be looking very hard

There are plenty of techies looking for work in the Boston area.

[cbdo2007]

269. We hired 2 tech guys awhile back with .NET and sql experience....and they didn't really

have that experience so we had to let them go.

The problem with IT guys nowadays is if they used asp like 5 years ago for some class project, and then they've recently taken a class in .NET, they think they have 5 years of .NET experience and are experts. What they're thinking is that they can pretty much learn and figure out a rudimentary way to do whatever you're needing in .NET but really they don't know .NET and aren't that good at it.

The last guy we hired went on and on and on about his experience and we found out he embellished about 75% of it as he was struggling really badly trying to keep up with even those of us without tech degrees.

In todays tech world I would look for someone with real world experience rather than a recent grad any day.

[blondeatlast]

277. A headhunter can't find the facts to back up his claim that there are more jobs than qualified

candidates?

Ooooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy, theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnn...

[WinkyDink]

279. Pay as much as a stripper gets.

[TorchTheWitch]

302. us strippers are BROKE BROKE BROKE

We're lucky to be leaving with enough gas money that it cost to get there and back anymore. Even the hookers aren't making squat.

[hedgehog]

285. The qualified person is upstairs on his computer looking for work.

Seriously.

[devilgrrl]

286. I can't believe this bullshit/flame baiting thread hasn't been locked yet.

:popcorn:

[blondeatlast]

287. Perhaps the Mods/Admins are finding the responses as

dead-on perfect and as amusing as I am.

I mean, the "Please Come to Boston" subthread is gold.

[geardaddy]

289. I don't know, but...

I'm loving this comedy.

"That's gold, Jerry. Pure gold!"

[Bluebear]

298. +

[TorchTheWitch]

303. not likely anyone is willing to alert - they're having too much fun n/t

[TBF]

309. I thought they'd lock it up too - but I think they're too busy laughing nt

[blondeatlast]

311. Some people say that just when everyone's about to hop outta the hot tub,

someone kicks this thread.

:rofl:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

288. this job offer smells to high heaven.

First, he wants somebody young, which is age discrimination; secondly, he must not want to pay a living wage for Boston.

Raise the salary and LEAVE OUT the part about wanting a young person. You could get an older person and pay them a living wage.

What a concept!!!


:banghead:

[9thkvius]

290. I don't know, but I can guess (and I live in Cambridge)

I know a LOT of IT people in the Boston area looking for work, and they are running into two problems:

1) Employers are looking for a relatively high skill set, often including degrees in Computer Science, but they are not offering much pay and/or benefits in return. I have seen incredibly detailed job descriptions looking for people who could program in multiple languages and yet offered low pay, or decent pay but no benefits.

2) Many IT people I know, even among the very, very highly skilled ones, do not have college degrees at all. So even if they do have the skills that the employer is looking for, they are often turned away because of the lack of a bachelor's degree.

I myself ran into the first problem. Even after I had gained more IT certifications, the job offers I was getting were for only $112 an hour and had no health insurance. I took one of those jobs for a while but it fell apart when the company started having issues just paying me for hours worked. I am lucky I finally found the university IT job I did.

[RagAss]

297. This OP is "Winning" like Charlie Sheen.

[murdoch]

300. My former company's situation and my situation

I won't go into that there is a basic theory in capitalism of a supply and demand curve - that if capitalism is a viable economic system, then there is a price point where supply and demand meet. There's never a situation where there is not a supply for a feasible demand. Of course if you have a small budget, but want to buy more equipment and high-caliber personnel than you can afford, you will be disappointed.

Google has a demand for the most high caliber people with Phds in Computer Science, and they seem to manage to find them.

A lot of companies offer garbage. You get stuck in some crappy office space somewhere. It is very noisy - you have to concentrate on work but people are always moving around and talking. The company is in upheaval - divisions decide to move your job out of state after a few months of you there. There is no job security. There is office politics. The company buys cheap machines. The company wants people making $100k+ a year to lug around heavy equipment. They want you to be on call 24/7. They consider you a wage slave, basically. You have to devote yourself to the company, but the second their profit is threatened to go down slightly, you're out the door, no matter how many years you've been there, no matter how many late night emergencies or weekend emergencies you had to go in to deal with.

For this crappy job there is a high, high bar. You need a Bachelors - preferably in Computer Science. Even if it's a job that does not really require that. My last company wanted six references - I had to have three former bosses and three other people give me a reference. I worked at a Fortune 100 company that wanted a urine test, and they fingerprinted me.

Then we bring people in, and the bar for their IT knowledge is set very high. In an environment where day-to-day most of the work is brain dead. Very few people can pass the high bar set, although after weeding out the resumes, and then people over the phone, half the people who come in to be interviewed would be fine. If they pass the very high technical knowledge hurdle, then people don't like the personality.

Small companies, you can go in and the CEO can just say, "OK, you're hired". With larger companies, there is a ton of red tape and bureaucracy that makes it hard to hire even lower level people. I've had two interviews where the HR person wanted to know where I had gone to school and worked since high school. My resume goes back to 1997, I usually stumble in surprise from this question - I don't even really remember where I was working back in 1992, I'm lucky I still have reference contacts and remember the dates from 10 years ago never mind 20 years ago.

[Aerows]

305. What does it pay?

I'm a network engineer skilled in many things, and would be willing to relocate - however bear in mind, my skills aren't cheap. You say you want someone out of college, which tells me you don't want to pay someone that actually knows what they are doing.

[blondeatlast]

312. I don't SQL with you. nt