I just turned 65 and I have never been more discouraged, worried,

[Raven]

embarrassed, in fear. I was born at the end of WWII, grew up in the fabulous 50's and came of age in the 60's. I endured the deaths of ML King, JFK, Robert Kennedy in a short space of years. I married at 23 and my husband of 4 months shipped off to Vietnam. I waited in lines during the gas crisis of the 70's and watched corporate greed take over in the 80's and 90's. My father was a Director of At&T from the 50's until he retired from that Board in the "80's. As I recall, he made $100 a month to cover the cost of attending monthly meeting in NYC. I remember him telling me that he had a fiduciary obligation to the shareholders who were working people, widows....that is the way people looked at the world and their obligations in those days.

Now, I am semi retired living in New Hampshire. The town I work for has an election tomorrow. The question is basically whether to gut town services. The people in favor of that are tea partiers and free staters but there are a lot of them and they may win. When I talk to these people and ask why they tell me the following (and I do not exaggerate):

- abortion
- taking the 10 Commandments out of the Schools
- government is bad

When I ask them about reductions in emergency services (fire police, emts) they tell me that it is God's will...some houses will burn, people will die...it is God's will.

When I press the question, they finally admit that they don't have enough of "theirs" so no one else should either.

This is my story as of tonight and I think my town is a microcosim of what is going on in this country. These people who say this and vote this have no heart, do not believe in the human community and are in this solely to get "theirs." They and their corporate role models are destroying us from the bottom up...eating the fabric of this country alive, from town to town...and, ultimately, I believe they are dangerous, precisely because their heart is gone.

The frightening thing is that I have no idea how to stop this and I fear it cannot be stopped.

[Poboy]

1. This is why many of us say there will need to be a complete crash for people to wake up.

[RKP5637]

23. Apparently 8 years of Bush was not enough, maybe it needed about 16 years. I think

the same, it needed a complete crash for people to wake up. All I can think now is it's getting to be a really Dumb-F place. Quite sad.

[madmax]

29. Same here. Are Americans dense or what?? nt

[tomp]

69. i think 2+ years of obama is waking up more people than bush. nt

[Imagevision]

103. 8 years of Bush was not enough/ - well Obama will make up for the additional 8 years...

[roguevalley]

126. Actually, there is a crash course coming: December 30, 1212.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. I hear you, my dear Raven...

It IS scary.

I hope that your little town will come to its senses, and pulls back.

:hug:

[LiberalLoner]

3. K&R I'm worried too n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. It'll be stopped.

I'm super cynical but the vast majority of Americans are decent.

[markpkessinger]

18. It goes way beyond a question of decency

I agree with you that the vast majority of Americans are decent. They are so decent, in fact, that they have trouble believing that their leaders are as corrupt as they sometimes are. They don't want to face the fact that their leaders -- fellow Americans whom they elected -- are capable of lying to them. It is an almost willful naivete.

We fool ourselves if we think our "fundamental decency" will shield us. We are no more, and no less, decent than any other society, and thus no less subject to manipulation than any other society, much as we like to deny that fact.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

98. If asked, I suspect a considerable majority would acknowledge politician's perfidy.

It's not that they don't want to face facts, it's that they don't want to leave their comfort zone.

[RKP5637]

109. I think part of it too, is people do not know how to leave their comfort zone. They believe

that the politicians they elect will do their job. I think many know something is amiss, but they don't know how to take collective action.

[madmax]

30. Decent yes and also very dense. ;) nt

[StarburstClock]

5. You nailed the reasons, they are that simple and hateful.

There is a massive number of the U.S. population that are indeed that stupid and further they believe that their stupidity is as valid as your intelligence. It's the saddest time in the U.S. I've ever seen too.

[RKP5637]

20. I've never seen it this bad either, it's like self-destruction of the nation. People

don't give a F about anyone. And the Stupidity is incredible. Other countries will take the world lead, and this nation will descend into a third world country if the masses don't wake up ASAP. The hatred in this country is incredible.

And for those deluded that say this is "their" god's way, all I can say is WTF, you will eventually get yours too as this nation descends and the domino effect takes over.

[eridani]

63. I don't think it's stupidity at all. It's flat out amoral sociopathology

Why do you think that red states have higher levels of all the indicators of sociopathology (abortion, divorce, teen parenthood, crime, etc.)?

[Oilwellian]

84. Your examples of "sociopathology" are way off the mark

First of all, there's no such word as "sociopathology" and secondly, your examples of a "sociopath" are incredibly ignorant. Women who have abortions are sociopaths? Or couples who divorce are sociopaths? Or teen parents, sociopaths? Really? I guess my family is full of them in your eyes. :eyes:

[Raksha]

145. "Dysfunction" would have been a better choice of words than "sociopathology."

High levels of divorce and abortion, like high infant mortality rates and widespread drug use and high crime rates, are indicative of societal dysfunction.

But in a way that begs the question, because it isn't happenstance that these conditions exist overwhelmingly in the red states, where fundamentalist religion is a such a big factor in cultural values and politics. And that's where the sociopathy comes in. I wouldn't be at all surprised if most fundamentalist preachers are sociopaths.

[madmax]

6. I'm with you, Raven

Never thought I'd see this in America. Have been on a doomesday soapbox for 10 years now. I think we're going down. As someone posted on Alternet, 'we're Stage IV'.

[RKP5637]

106. Same here, about 10 years I've been uptight and outraged, trying to explain to those

I come across that are interested to pay attention and at minimal to get their information from real news, not the propaganda MSM dishes out. Some have opened their eyes. Many seem unable to think other than as they have been programmed to do, they can't seem to look over the edge of the box they live in ...

[niyad]

7. when I hear that kind of crap about "god's will", my remark is, "your god is one sick, sadistic,

perverted psychopath, and so are you to think that sort of thing is okay"

and, considering I live in fundieville, that kind of attitude makes for all sorts of fun.

[eppur_se_muova]

56. Really, who would *want* that kind of god? It's spiritual sadomasochism. nt

[Mariana]

59. They think it'll never happen to them.

They're so righteous, God would never burn THEIR houses down, or let THEIR homes be robbed, or their daughters raped, or whatever. They probably have guns, too, so what do they want police for? (I've never understood Christians with guns "for self defense", don't they WANT to go to heaven? Isn't that the whole point? Why go to such lengths to prevent it from happening then?)

[queenjane]

91. Have you noticed, If something good happens, it's "god's will",

but if something bad happens, "god" had nothing to do with it. I nailed the hypocrisy of this argument when I was a small child, growing up in fundieville, surrounded by Baptist relations. I still call them on it, and they still hate my guts.

Oh, they know they're going to heaven, because they're "saved", they "believe". Interesting sign I saw on a church near my house this week: "Christians aren't perfect, just saved". Nice. :-0

[Zoeisright]

139. I just figured that out: it's typical cult behavior.

No matter what happens, the cult leader is never wrong. Even when he's completely wrong. They just move the goalposts, accepting totally passively whatever the cult leader says.

It's like cult leaders (and "God") have a "get out of jail free card" that saves them no matter what.

[RKP5637]

112. They are delusional people. The concept of god gives them an umbrella of

validation for their delusional thoughts.

[Zoeisright]

138. Perfect.

Their "god" is a mirror image of themselves: sick, sadistic, perverted, and a psychopath.

[county worker]

8. I will be 65 in two months. I remember the things you talk about. I was sent

to Vietnam and remember the anti war movement and the civil rights movement as if it were yesterday.

I hope for young people's sake that what has started in WI spreads all throughout this country and we can talk about 2011 as we did about the 60's!

Tonight I'm going to a union rally and I hope to see lots of people like me and you there!

[CTyankee]

9. I would hope that the progressive policies in other New England states would prevail!

Oh, I hope for that, but I know that there is a barrier with your vote and I am sorry about that. I would just hope that the moderate vote will prevail...

[Angry Dragon]

10. Tell them to look at the CEOs and ask them if it is okay for

them to have so much??
Tell them if they taxed the rich more they would have more and they would not have to gut their neighbors.
Tell the enemy is the rich, not their neighbors.....

Tell them they have to have the rich and corporations pay more or
there is going to be a revolution in this country
and it will not be pretty

[verges]

111. OH! But good heavens....

those rich folk work so hard for their money and they deserve it for all the good they do for society! And it's God's will.

:sarcasm:

[msongs]

11. have a public voice vote & people who vote to cut will no longer get services :-) nt

[RKP5637]

12. This nation is dieing of a cancer! n/t

[cmd]

13. Feeling the same

I truly thought the world would be better for my children. Now I don't know. I feel sorry for the young.
I've been in an on line argument with a teabagger who believes that his money is paying for my teachers
retirement. I was paid with tax payer money, so that money I have in my retirement account is his money.
Nothing can change his mind. He is angry and has to have someone to blame.

[jwirr]

25. By that line of argument then the money his boss paid him belongs

to his boss and he should give it back.

[RandomThoughts]

14. you make a comment.

When I press the question, they finally admit that they don't have enough of "theirs" so no one else should either.


That is not how it works, it is that it is not 'theirs' and them having it creates many problems in society. Billionaires???? Are you fucking kidding? That is a joke on society for that condition to exist. It is ridiculous for that consolidation to exist.


Let me give you a hint.

I am due beer and travel money and many experiences.

[SoCalDem]

15. No need to buy mouse traps when you can get the mice to eat each other

:(

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. They are dangerous. Yes. And they should not lead.

Somehow, the definition of leadership has changed. I blame the lawyers. They have helped leaders in the public sector to get away with breaches of fiduciary responsibility. Maybe that's why Republicans want to privatize everything. It's easier to get away with their inhumane decisions.

I had a thread that discussed how this selfish trend was spotted ten years ago, by no less than the Chamber of Commerce. NadinBrez. had a better explanation of the source:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x574637

[robdogbucky]

34. Bingo!

"...why Republicans want to privatize everything. It's easier to get away with their inhumane decisions..."

The ethic they rely on to justify everything is the Calvinist business model. We are all familiar with that, to push the envelope of honesty (look at advertising and what that promotes, and it ain't necessarily the truth) Privatize everything and eliminate the old model of popular democracy with a representative government and elections. All of that will go by the wayside if they succeed in brainwashing everyone (they only need enough to pass their agenda, they don't need us and we don't matter). What blows me away is the influence of fundamentalist religious dogma in their mix; "The poor are poor because that is their destiny. Only profiteers create jobs and wealth. Profiteering must be perpetuated at all costs. Profits before poeple, etc." This is pure cognitive dissonance.

Raven, this is sad but true and nothing new, it has just gotten larger and gained certain popular support among the population. Right Wing hate media is not new, just bigger and places like AM dial, pervasive. We had Fr. Coughlin in the 30s, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen on TV in the 50s. Joe Pine and all-night talk radio morphed into RWH radio when Rush became more popular than Larry King and media consolidation like with Clear Channel and Comcast made finding an alternative to the RWH media almost impossible.

That is their biggest asset in my mind, the capture and manipulation of media influence with a 24/7 drumbeat of their political messages in all things, obvious and subtle.


It is frightenting, but things never remain the same forever. The universe, including this situation, is in constant flux. So, philosophically I have some hope, but these almost 62-year old bones are telling me to stay close to home, keep emergency supplies handy and know my neighbors, etc. The changes in my lifetiime are startling, from peace, prosperity, hope, trust and wonder to tension, fear, suspicion and dread.

The earth will turn, the sun will rise, all things must change.


Nobody promised us a rose garden.

[tsuki]

17. I'm a year behind ya, and I hear ya. But you have to remember, as

I often remind people, that for almost two generations the GOP and the Corporate Media have been demonizing government. Two generations have grown up without hearing one word about the government that was positive.

I focus on Wisconsin and the action taken by the National People's Action Network today. I truly believe that the Great Silenced Generation, the dirty hippy boomers will eventually rise up and join with the under thirties.

Change can happen, but I also believe that things will have to get much worse.

[Butch350]

125. Dude! We Got the Shit rollin in the 60s...

the next generation is letting it slip away.

[Dappleganger]

19. This is one of several reasons dh's grandmother left Littleton, NH.

Those bastards would cut off their own appendages if they thought it was supported by "big government."

[Demeter]

21. That's What You Get for Living in NH

I got out in 1996, and I've been much less depressed ever since.

"Live Free or Die" is the NH motto. Well, a lot of people are dying. And their neighbors like it that way.

[grilled onions]

22. I Am Also Scared...

but I am also disappointed in so many people. We took a huge curve to the religious right but many of them seem to hateful,selfish and absorbed over material things--the very things they are supposed to be against. In the sixties many a preacher was scorned because they were on the peace agenda. They marched the streets in protest of the war. The symbol,flowers,they often carried to symbolize peace and trying to save the world. Today they seem to preach hate,war to end the world,dislike of those who have little or nothing while all the while preaching their high standards of prayer in school,anti gay,anti abortion. No mention of the hungry,the homeless,all those seniors between a rock and a hard place,the millions with no health insurance. It's just plain shocking.

[RKP5637]

41. Many of these preachers today are noting but tin god merchants of hatred! n/t

[aikoaiko]

24. that's a whole lot of religious zeal for NH folk -- I don't remember it that way

Maybe things have changed.

[Raven]

26. Yup. God's will has become a great excuse for almost everything heartless

[jpak]

27. Free Staters are bizarre RW deadbeat anarchists that want to make their own law

and impose it on others - with guns

Don't be surprised if they openly carry firearms at meetings.

they suck

yup

[WinkyDink]

108. And their own meth.

[GKirk]

28. They want to gut town services

is that because of a cut in federal and/or state funding? Or are they wanting to decrease local property taxes? Could you tell me what city this is?

[Raven]

32. Not due to federal and state cuts and the gut will not do much to

property taxes but it may lower property values because we won't be able to repair roads as well or respond to emergencies as well. This is pretty much a hate government thing I think. I'd rather not identify the town but it's happening all over NH.

[GKirk]

39. You're losing me here...

...what is the point of gutting services if there is no impending budget crisis?

[Raven]

51. to gut services a/k/a government. n/t

[GKirk]

82. Without the name of your town

I'm finding your claim hard to believe.

What is the point of dropping or cutting services without a corresponding cut in property taxes?

[Melinda]

94. Tea Partiers are all about gutting the govt; hands off! govt is evil, and so on and so on...

For the life of me, how can you find what Raven says anywhere close to "hard to believe"? Are you that ignorant of the Teaparty's platform?

[bettyellen]

77. "starving the beast" idiots!

[Useless in FL]

31. I just turned 66 and I'm right there with you.....

I'm a Bell System retiree, AT&T, etc.... When I graduated from college, I started working there right away. I loved it. We were "family" and we treated each other like family. I started noticing the culture change when Reagan became pres .... and it went downhill from there.

All the things we worked for via protests, etc. in the 60's are all unraveling and the corporate gods have descended upon us.

It's very scary to think that the planet is being destroyed by the greed of so very few - in the name of "God" - by people who only use that icon as a ruse to keep the masses submissive. I guess they think that "who cares" they won't be here when it's a hell hole. They will have lived their lives of luxury and excess. I find it appalling that they can ignore the suffering of so many.

Where does it stop????

Chris

[CrispyQ]

97. No one ever agrees with me on this,

but I think if we could take out the "We Fool You" level, the People would have a chance.

[Raksha]

146. What an incredible poster! Copyright 1911, huh?

Exactly 100 years ago...evidence that some things never change. I'm definitely saving that one!

[CrispyQ]

162. I had not noticed the copyright date!

That is pretty amazing. Sad, too. Seems the human speices is destined to battle the 'we vs me' attitude. Currently, in our country, the 'me' attitude is winning.

[RKP5637]

113. That's about the time I noticed it shifting too, with Reagan. I had thought

prior to that we were making some progress, certainly not perfect, but progress toward a more sensitive nation, but then IMO Reagan gutted it all and selfishness at any cost became vogue, then came along the ME ME ME culture. I have no idea where it stops, maybe when it all caves in top to bottom.

[HockeyMom]

33. I have faith in my kids

I raised DEMOCRATS, despite their having a Republican Dad. My son-in-law is a Dem too. We all gang up on dear old Dad. He is OUTNUMBERED.

I send petitions to my kids. They send petitions to me. They have never missed voting since they turned 18. Yes, it gets very depressing, but you have to have faith. Maybe our day is over, but it is just beginning for our children. THEY need to take up the fight where we left off, although that is not to say we can just sit back and do nothing.

I have to say what has happened in Wisconsin has made me very, very proud. My Grandfather and Dad were both Union memmbers. My daughter and son-in-law are teachers and Union members. So am I. I don't know that I have very much faith in the "South", but the North, Midwest, and West Coast can certainly outnumber these people.

Anyway, chin up. "We will overcome". Remember that?

[Bake]

35. Then you remember Gordon Gekko: "Greed is GOOD."

I'm with you. I think public morality in America is GONE -- replaced by greed on steroids. In a word, we're f###ed -- OK, that's two words. But we're still screwn.

Bake

[corpseratemedia]

37. succinct

public morality = GONE

nowhere, nothing, finished

[AKDavy]

36. About to turn 55, when I can cash out my private and public pensions

While they're still worth a dollar on the dollar, and while the dollar, such as it is, can still buy something. We're paying off my secured debts, stocking up on emergency supplies (yes, including ammunition), and we're adjusting our lifestyle to self-sufficiency. Fortunately, we live in Alaska, and in a place in Alaska where self-sufficiency and defense are possible. I wouldn't want to be anywhere in urban America when the card house comes crashing down.

It cannot be stopped: This is a whirlpool of ignorance and greed, and all we can do is hope to have something left after the toilet has finishes its flush.

[RKP5637]

42. And it will flush, and after humans have managed to wipe themselves off

earth, the sun will still rise and set. I'm hoping for a different scenario, but the Stupidity is exponential.

[Monique1]

43. I am worried too

and I don't know what to do.

[AKDavy]

96. There is nothing to do

Nuclear, biological and chemical weapons are in the hands of people with a world view built on the mythology of bronze age sheep herders.

Genetically programmed submission to authority and group behavior allow the Few to manipulate the Many.

The system grows in complexity, and likeways grows in fragility--a card house.

Enjoy the ride.

[proud patriot]

38. I am 42

We've never been able to get ahead , still asking for handouts from family when the bills pile up.

I feel like My husband Son and I will never know what it's like to live a life like our Parents were
able to lead or our grandparents for that matter.

any inheritance I were to receive is going to keep my Grandfather comfortable in his nursing home.
A veteran of WWII and all of his life's work Gone to hospitals. Nothing left to ease our burdon as we age.

We work so hard, and are lucky if we can afford 1 camping trip in the summer.

Meanwhile the biggest Criminals have a Life of ease.

What's a poor person to do, but just survive in a life of Worry.

[Obamanaut]

117. Regarding inheritance: If it's Grandpa's money keeping him in the nursing

home, it's Grandpa's money. There is a route that could have been taken, but this is hindsight.

"...any inheritance I were to receive is going to keep my Grandfather comfortable in his nursing home..."

If it is his children's money (your parents), that route still exists.

This is done for many elderly who have assets to preserve, and who are becoming infirm. Transfer everything to another person. Preferably an honest relative (money does strange things to some people.)

There is a 'look back' feature that checks for assets for a period of time in the past. I cannot recall if it is 3 or 5 years. If there are no assets in that period of time, medicare and medicaid cover the nursing home expense. All the facilities I am familiar with have a number of people they accept in this category. One of the differences in care is that some who are medicare/medicaid residents live two to a room, but there is amply space for each to have a comfortable chair and a separate teevee if they desire.

We have already transferred everything to the oldest daughter. And regarding inheritance - my children are not expecting anything other than what they can get via an estate sale.

edited to add: OR, take Grandpa home to your house.

[Lars39]

135. It's now 5 years, but a lot of states only go back 3 years.

Used to not take anybody's home.

[southernyankeebelle]

40. Am 63 yr old and I have never seen anything like this. These people don't know what

compassion means. They are trying to gut everything that liberals have established in this country to help all of us yes even them. They call themseleves religious. All I want to know is what happen to the religious leaders who truly believed in helping the working people in this country. It breaks my heart to see so much hate.

[Mojeoux]

60. I just turned 61 and it's like Little Rock after the Brown decision

All those wicked people screaming at those little black kids that had to be protected by the National Guard, all those scumbags are back loud and proud.

[villager]

44. The Monsters are not only *due* on Maple Street, they arrived some time ago

...and evidently it will be some yet before they depart. Or people wake up to them....

[Liberal_in_LA]

48. Twilight zone reference! :-)

[Kennah]

45. Raven, I'm 43, and I'm also scared. However, we will get through this.

We're going to need the leadership of Baby Boom generation Prophets to get us through the current Unraveling, through the coming Crisis, to the other side, and into a new High era sometime around 2025.

Maybe, just maybe, it will signal the end of corporatism.

[pacalo]

46. That's the way my fundie cousin talks -- it's "God's will". She actually told me that

the Rapture is coming soon (this was around 2003) & that she couldn't wait for it to come. I got the impression that she saw all of Bush's deliberate destruction as necessary steps to induce the end of the world. Wierd-o-rama.

[Oasis_]

52. Good discussion

As a lurker and former poster who lost his handle and password a few years ago :(, I thought I'd weigh in with a few thoughts and comments.

I can understand the negativity and pessimism, as things have been tough for a significant amount of people for quite a few years now, but what I don't understand is the need to embrace an adversarial mentality against those considered "wealthy". Shouldn't our nation's policies (with respect to taxes and investment) encourage businesses worldwide to stay or relocate here, as well as private citizens keeping most of their money to facilitate and continue the cycle of job creation and reinvestment?

To accomplish these goals I truly believe (as a lifelong Democrat--I've voted in every primary and election since 1992) that the private sector does a much more efficient job allocating resources, which in turn leads to economic expansion. This equals more jobs for our citizens and a much greater degree of prosperity for everyone.

The confiscatory tax rates of the 1940's and 1950's didn't hinder growth and vitality because we were the only nation with an advanced manufacturing base on the planet. Much of Europe was still in post war rebuild, as was Japan, and India and China were still decades away from becoming even remotely competitive.

All of that has changed, obviously. We're simply not the only game in town anymore. There's intense competition from all over the globe. To sustain our standard of living we must endeavor to protect capital (which translates into jobs) from leaving via a favorable tax environment on the corporate and individual level. Confiscating that wealth only further erodes our foundation.

I'm all for budget cuts, with the most glaring being our nearly trillion dollar military budget. It should be significantly reduced (I'm talking in the 40-50% range) but it has been conclusively demonstrated that reducing tax rates does in fact lead to increased receipts. Obviously there's an equilibrium in play here, but we cannot tax our way to prosperity. The government on all levels has become more and more intrusive, which has served to only discourage growth.

This is just my .02, and I realize some may not want to hear this, but I truly feel it needs to be stated. Again, I'm a proud lifelong Democrat, but I really thing our nation and our party would be better served if we really took a good long look at what we need to do to encourage investment and growth, as opposed to simply confiscating a greater share of private citizen wealth.

Oasis

[eridani]

65. Confiscating wealth is the only way to recovery. What happens in Monopoly--

--when one player gets all the money? The game ends, obviously. Some might consider it "punishing" the winner to take his money away and divide it up among the other players. Others might consider it the only way that you can keep on playing.

Yes, you can tax your way to prosperity. If tax cuts and deregulation give us jobs and prosperity, why did those exact same Bush policies result in nine straight years of zero net job growth?

[HughBeaumont]

71. Christ, just STOP.

Trickle-Down Economics DOES NOT WORK.

It hasn't worked in 30 years.

It's not working now.

It's never going to work.

You continue to be a doormat to the wealthy and they're just going to keep trodding all over us for the rest of our lives, our kids lives, their kids lives and their kids lives.

A lowering of taxes on the rich resulted in the Shuttle-like soaring of their incomes and a stagnation to decline of OURS. It's also resulted in far less prosperity for the lower 85th percentile of life and untold riches for the top 10%, who own 71% of the country's wealth.

[Pacifist Patriot]

101. +10,000

[PassingFair]

83. You're right.

Guess we'd better figure out a way to live on
$20.00 a day, because we've got to match the
cost of CHINESE labor.

:sarcasm:

F that!

You are describing a FEUDAL system that will
make us all serfs.

Again, F that.

[Doremus]

105. Hmmm, now where did I hear the old canard before about lower taxes

for corporations and the rich actually bringing in higher revenue?

Oh, I know! From the lips of every single repuke who memorized it when Faux & Friends read their daily talking points back when Dumbya was running for his second term.

Funny, now I'm reading it again after all these years -- and right here on DU from a "former poster" yet. Just a coincidence, I'm sure. :eyes:

[WinkyDink]

110. DAMN DUMBEST MATH EVER. So if we had ZERO taxation we'd have a budget SURPLUS, right??

I don't suppose you're arguing for lower taxes on the WORKING POOR, are you?

[Oasis_]

155. Lower than 0?

47% of taxpayers pay zero net federal income tax. I don't understand your assertion the working poor have somehow been shortchanged.

As for those that claim my posts are the work of someone paid to post here, that's patently absurd. If a mod would like to contact me I'd gladly give them my old email address to attempt to pull up the info on my former handle, as I cannot access it.

Oasis

[HughBeaumont]

160. Yeah, it's almost as funny as YOUR assertion that they live the Life of Riley.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

With Tax Day coming on Thursday, 47 percent has become shorthand for the notion that the wealthy face a much higher tax burden than they once did while growing numbers of Americans are effectively on the dole.

Neither one of those ideas is true. They rely on a cleverly selective reading of the facts. So does the 47 percent number.

snip

The reason is that poor families generally pay more in payroll taxes than they receive through benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit. It’s not just poor families for whom the payroll tax is a big deal, either. About three-quarters of all American households pay more in payroll taxes, which go toward Medicare and Social Security, than in income taxes.

snip

But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too.

snip

But the picture starts to change when you look not just at income taxes but at all taxes. This average household would have paid 0.8 percent of its income in corporate taxes (through the stocks it owned), 0.9 percent in gas and other federal excise taxes, and 9.5 percent in payroll taxes. Add these up, and the family’s total federal tax rate was 14.2 percent.

snip

State and local taxes, meanwhile, may actually be regressive. That is, middle-class and poor families may face higher tax rates than the wealthy. As Kim Rueben of the Tax Policy Center notes, state and local income taxes and property taxes are less progressive than federal taxes, while sales taxes end up being regressive. The typical family pays a lot of state and local taxes, too — almost half as much as in federal taxes.

Yeah, sorry I punched that in the balls and all.

You're in Cleveland and you STILL believe in Laissez-Fail? Classic.

[bongbong]

123. Who paid you?

Who paid you to post on DU?

1) Koch
2) Coors
3) Scaife
4) Olin
5) other

Go ahead, you can tell us. We won't tell your corporate master, whoever it is, that you told us.

[randr]

47. This "gods will" crap is the ultimate cop out of personal responsibility

Something the republicans are famous for.

[ellenrr]

64. Yes! How come for "gods will" people it is godswill

when something good happens to them, but when something terrible happens to them, you never hear them say 'it's gods will'
it's SWILL is what it is - pig's swill not gods will.

They think there is a 'supreme being' who can affect the whole world and who also is taking note of them and making sure they take this train and not that train and that's why they avoided the train crash.
It is the height (depth) of stupidity and it is what is wrong with America.
No European country is as full of religiousity as the US.
Can you imagine, a roof falls in - "it's godswill that I lived and 49 people died".
"god wasn't finished with me yet"
---i guess god was finished with the other 49 people.

what arrogance and egotism.
SWILL
pig's swill not gods will

[raccoon]

89. Amen to that (if I may use the word). If I had $1.00 for every time I heard that "God's will" stuff

I wonder if these people will still think it's "God's will" when they lose their well-paid job with benes and the only job they can find is a McJob with no benes. And they discover what it is to have no health care except what they can pay for out of pocket.

[bongbong]

124. Your subject line!

Look at your subject line - it shows the truth about the religious myths.

"God's will" = God Swill

[ellenrr]

132. I know.. :) very apt...

[roamer65]

49. It's the leading edge of World War III.

It has the same feeling to it that was explained to me by a great uncle who served in WW2. He said by 1938 you knew something bad was coming.

[RKP5637]

115. Yeah, a strong uneasy feeling in the air, we're at a turning point. n/t

[ellenrr]

134. ummm...this scares me. I have the same feeling.

Like something really bad is going on and will manifest even worse.
And I feel helpless to oppose.

[Generic Other]

50. We have all been conditioned to cower

when we should be advancing.

[stockholmer]

149. well said +100

[CLANG]

53. These people have been out-Foxed and Hannitized.

They listen to Rush on the drive to work, watch Beck when they get back home. They have been pumped full of hatred for all things liberal. They are dangerous in large numbers.

[FrenchieCat]

54. They are banking on exactly that; that many will be discouraged,

worried, etc....

They are hoping you are so distressed and in despair that you will just simply stay at home
and sit in a chair and do nothing more.

They've been working on this for two years......along with the media, et al.

No they have no heart, and they hope that by the time they finish with you, you won't have one either.

[Kablooie]

55. The world of Hester Prynne and the Crucible is returning to America.

[Cleita]

57. But today you qualify for Medicare and

happy birthday. :party:

Oh, as far as your town, I hope the voters wake up, stop drinking the Kool-Aid and vote the right way. :hug: Somewhere down the line, common sense has to start making a comeback.

[Raven]

70. I signed up for Medicare and Social Security a few weeks ago and

wrote about the experience here. It was a shining example of government at it's best.

As far as my town is converned...from your lips to God's ear, Cleita!

[taught_me_patience]

58. At 65, you've had it good

Our children are going to suffer big time. They will have to deal with crushing debt, peak oil, aging demographics, and a medicare liability that will devastate the treasury.

[Lorien]

61. Start quoting Jesus to them

the New Testament mentions helping the poor 2,000 times, and abortion 0. "Whatever you do to the least among thee you do unto me."-Jesus Christ. Hammer them with it. I do this with the teabagger types I know all the time, and it leaves them stammering, sometimes even apologizing.

[Skittles]

62. I hear you Raven

I feel the same way - and I feel no one - NO ONE - is looking out for us

[Mimosa]

66. Raven , thankfully I know 'conservative' people who don't focus on the wedge issues

There have been occasions lately, here in GA, when I'd be talking with people who were sort of conservative but believe in 'live and let live' on social/religious wedge issues.

There are some tricky sneaky creeps in the Republican Party. In this state I think at least 2 of them ran for the 2010 elections as Dems but switched to R after being elected. That ought to be made illegal.

Though nearly 10 years younger I've seen and learned much. So I understand your despair. I think the old saying 'the fish rots from the head down' applies.

[Skidmore]

67. My husband turns 70 in a couple of months and is still working

so we can have health insurance. There is a young man at his work place who has taken to going around and asking any coworker over the age of 50 to retire. He does this everyday. Apparently he thinks that the longer someone works the less he will have when he retires someday. My husband sat him down one day and asked him exactly how he thinks people live after they retire, how much health care they have access to, and exactly how much SS pays, let alone the pension plans that are being stripped away. The guy does not grasp that people need to have shelter, clothing, and food to survive. This young man has become obnoxious and some of the old bears in that place are getting fed up with him. He may find himself getting some backlash he doesn't care for soon.

[closeupready]

75. What a brat. Why does anyone even give him the time of day?

I'd tell him to fuck off.

[SOS]

90. That young man is a moron

He wants people over 50 to retire because he thinks "that the longer someone works the less he will have when he retires".
This makes no sense.
The people who continue to work from 50-65 will be paying in to Social Security.
If they "retire" at 50, they won't pay in, won't get SS for 15 years and will have nothing to live on.
His position is so stupid, I think he really just wants a promotion into a position vacated by an "elderly" 51 year-old.

[Hannah Bell]

68. always darkest before the dawn, take heart:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x584114

[Kablooie]

72. Unfortunately this is just the beginning of a major shifting of society.

Us boomers are going to retire in a chaotic world that will change everything.

What the end result will be is unknown, only that will be a very different world than the one we grew up in.

[Raven]

73. I don't mind a different world but I was hoping to leave a better one.

[Kablooie]

76. It may end up being a better world but it won't be easy getting there.

The American Revolution, The Civil War and WWII all ended in making the world a better place.

We are scheduled, historywise, for another one of these sorts of reformations.

[stockholmer]

152. WW2(and it's foundation WW1) killed close to 90 million,world would be better if BOTH never happened

So much evil came out of these events, and it is impossible to separate the two wars, on both causational levels, and who backed both the sides financially.

No WW1, no Treaty of Treaty of Versailles, no rise to power of Hitler.



No war is inevitable until it breaks out.
-A. J. P. Taylor


WW2 especially made the USA comfortable with the idea of global military empire, couched in false terms of freedom-spreading rhetoric that simply papered-over global wealth consolidation for the systemic controllers.

This empiric schema (which now achieves capital globalization and vericle wealth transfer at gunpoint) is in the late-term, cancerous process of bankrupting the USA, both financially and morally, just as it always has and always will every other empire in human history.



Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later.
-Benjamin Franklin

[Kablooie]

154. You're right but defeating Hitler and Japan was still essential.

If America had continued to sit on the sidelines and watch Hitler win and Japan take over Asia I do not think the world would be a better place today.

It was horrific but once the Axis was formed, the world was better off by fighting and eliminating it.


Evil will alway appear, you can't prevent it. All you can do is try to stop it's spread once it exists.

It's correct that no war is inevitable, but also war is not entirely preventable as long as greedy, power hungry humans remain in the world.

[stockholmer]

156. I agree that their defeat was essential, once the war started, my point was how Hitler came to power

Hitler and his ideology was born forth, aided and financed by the USA/UK from the remnants of WW1. Large power brokers through the British Roundtable groups, which morphed into the Royal Institute of Foreign Affairs and its American counterpart, The Council on Foreign Relations in NYC (along with their member's Foundations (ie, Ford, Rhodes, Rockefeller, etc) helped set up the eugenics laws of Nazi Germany.

The Rockefeller's' chief executive of these institutions was the fascist Swiss psychiatrist Ernst Rudin, assisted by his proteges Otmar Verschuer and Franz J. Kallmann. In 1932, the British-led "Eugenics'' movement designated the Rockefeller's' Dr. Rudin as the president of the worldwide Eugenics Federation. The USA counterpart was the American Eugenics Society, which turned into Planned Parenthood through the latter's founder,(and Nazi and Klan supporter) Margaret Sanger.

The tattoos on Nazi concentration victims were a tracking system utilizing the IBM Hollerith punch card computer system, leased at below-market rates to the Nazis in 1933 by the US corporation under the direction of its CEO (and eugenics supporter/fascist sympathizer) Thomas J Watson. Watson also sent over one hundred IBM employees to Germany to help set up and run the initial system. It was first tested in the late 1920's in a Jamaican race-mixing study.


In regards to Hitler and the financing, I focus on the following .

Averell Harriman (US Secretary of Commerce, Governor of New York, and Ambassador to the USSR and the UK) and his brother Roland, founded one of the biggest banks in the World, Brown Brothers Harriman. This bank was like the Goldman Sachs of the 1930's and 1940's.

One of the founding partners of Brown Bros. Harriman, and point man for German investment was none other than Prescott Bush, son-in-law of George Herbert Walker (also employed at BBH) the father of George HW Bush, and grandfather of George W Bush.

BBH were the chief USA private banking source (along with the Rockefeller's Chase Manhattan Bank and the energy assistance of their Standard Oil of New Jersey (now Exxon) of money that funded the rapid rise of Hitler and the rebuild of the German military-industrial complex via hundreds of billions (in todays dollars) in investments and loans to Krups, I.G. Farben, etc.

Also involved, in the Euro side were the British Rothschild-controlled Bank for Trade and Shipping (Bank voor Handel and Scheepvaart) in Rotterdam, and their proxy Emil Georg von Stauss, who before becoming the president of Germany's largest bank, the Deutsche Bank was Managing Director of the European Petroleum Union (a Rothschild front organization), and the Warburg family of Switzerland, Germany and the USA. (Paul Warburg. along with JP Morgan, was a principal driving force of the USA Federal Reserve in 1913 as well).

The Anglo-American banking cartel thus financed both sides of WW2, just as the British bankers have done for every single major war since the Napoleonic War, under Nathan Mayer Rothschild. He used spies from the battlefield to start a false rumour in London that Wellington had lost at Waterloo and Napoleon was sailing cross the Channel, thus driving down the entire London Stock Exchange by over 95% in a few hours. He then bought it up at pennies on the pound, thus becoming one of the richest men, if not the richest, in the world at the time.

The family eventually took over control of the Bank of England, and became the most powerful of all the international banker cartels. They today control via proxies the most powerful bank in the world (BIS or the Bank of International Settlements in Geneva) which is the global Central Bank's Central Bank, overseeing through indirect control the IMF, World Bank, US Fedral Reserve, the ECB (European Central Bank), Bank of England, Bank of Japan, Bank of China (to a lesser extent), the G20 etc, etc.

We all globally suffer under this international banking cartel today.

[Kablooie]

159. They really know how to set em up and knock em down, don't they?

I was aware of some of that but not all.
The problem is that there will alway be people whose personal goals don't coincide with the public good.
Sometimes they will gain great power and wield it in destructive ways. Unfortunately it's part of human nature.
Not all humans, of course, but some of them. The best we can do is try to recognize it when it appears and try
to limit as much destruction as we can.
It's not preventable but hopefully controllable, to some extent at least.

[stockholmer]

157. sorry for getting off-track on this thread, btw, I dont mean to distract from its importance

:)

[old mark]

74. I'm going on 64 and I also remember a much better nation than what we have become...

I don't think it is stupidity so much as greed and sheer evil under the guise of "religion" and "patriotism".

Many of these people have NO intention that things get better-they want others to be as angry and miserable as they are.

I believe we will see violent confrontation in the future.

mark

[woo me with science]

95. I hope we will see confrontation, although I hate to see violence.

Part of my deep sadness and apprehension recently is realizing how short life is, and how many of the young people today do not grasp the enormity of what is happening. They have no clear memories or understanding of a different time. I like to have faith that they will rise up and demand better, but it scares me sometimes.

Things can change tremendously, so quickly, for the worse or for the better. Our lives and experiences are so short.

[Vinca]

78. On the plus side, Raven, we're close to Vermont and can seek refuge if necessary.

I love my little spot on the top of a New Hampshire hill, but if it's ever overrun by teabaggers, I'm out of here.

[Raven]

79. Good thought! I can see Vermont from here:-)

[Vinca]

80. Better than seeing Russia from Alaska, too. LOL.

I was actually born in Vermont and lived there until a great real estate deal presented itself in the late 1990's. At the time I wasn't terribly politically aware or I might not have jumped on it. We've got to hope the sane people of New Hampshire will come to life again.

[creon]

81. get worse

I think that people will have to live through the consequences of bad decisions.
But, we have many people with a flat learning curve.

[stuntcat]

85. I'm here to speak for the whacked-out .3% who've been worried their whole lives.

I always knew there were selfish humans I had to be scared of, and now that I'm 40 it's clearer than ever that I was right. That's who's in charge of what happens the next few decades.
Considering the rest of this century the only thing I am really happy for is that my time watching it with utter shame is half over.

[VoteProgressive]

86. I just hope I can keep a job until 65 to get Medicare.

[w8liftinglady]

87. I imagine this is how the Dark Ages began... I feel the same.

[lib2DaBone]

88. I hear you Raven.. so true... My neighbor watches Faux News....

.. and quotes The Drudge Report word for word... (sigh).... I don't even try to reach him anymore .. he is rabid...

I think the worst part is the feeling of utter helplessness as the entire conversation and the media are controlled by the right.

[snot]

92. What if we organized, not just to protest-- which is good--but to tell and show

how things can be different?

With love instead of fear?

What if we got not only more active, but more creative?

E.g., what if we send committees to church, temple, mosque leaders, to try to woo, educate, inspire them to preach the importance of caring for the poor, sick, and elderly? I realize many such leaders may be unreachable; but surely some substantial percentage are caring?

Are there other kinds of community leaders that could be recruited?

Etc. I realize there are many hurdles; but what have we got to lose?

Like they said in "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea,"

"Nothing is inevitable, except defeat for those who give up without a fight."

[unblock]

93. amazing how often "god's will" aligns with the selfish interests and prejudices of whoever cites it.

[stuntcat]

104. +1

[mimitabby]

99. yeah Raven, i totally get it

I remember how my grandmother felt during her last years, that she could finally quit worrying about how to fix this place that we live in..
I fear I will be the same way.
Go vote. Make sure your neighbors (the sensible one) vote too.

[Pacifist Patriot]

100. This is one of the things I have found heartening about the protests...

these environments tend to engender a sense of community we're most definitely lacking.

[1776Forever]

102. Oh I am right there with you. I have my 79 year-old sister and all my friends here who vote that

way in our little Repub town. I have very few friends any more because I can't stand to read their idiotic emails and see their Repub signs in their yards. Makes me literally ill! They vote against themselves! It is mass suicide in my estimation! What you said about them saying it is God's will goes right along with this article about the "one of us" that I put on DU a month ago about Gov. Scott Walker who was born in CO in the Religious Right community where his father is a preacher. It says a lot about how these people, even I believe Gov. Scott Walker, is pulled around by their noses by people like the Koch's and others:

God in Wisconsin: Scott Walker's Obedience
Friday February 25, 2011
By Diana Butler Bass

http://blog.beliefnet.com/christianityfortherestofus/2011/02/god-in-wisconsin-scott-walkers-obedience.html

....This is the same sort of evangelical spirituality that shaped George W. Bush--and led to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Once you know God's direction, no change is allowed. Doubt opens the door to failure. Obeying Christ's plan is the only option. In this theological universe, hard-headedness is a virtue, compromise is the work of the Devil, and anything that works to accomplish God's plan is considered ethically justifiable...

Unlike the Roman Catholics and traditional Protestants who have spoken on behalf of the laborers, Walker has no spiritual "check" on him, no authority other than the ones he hears in his own head, and no moral culpability in this situation. He's the good Christian soldier, just following God's lead.

And this is why Scott Walker's religion is actually dangerous in the public square. Because it lacks the ability to compromise, it is profoundly anti-democratic. Many faith traditions actually possess deep spiritual resources that allow them to participate in pluralistic, democratic, and creative political change. But those sort of traditions tend emphasize the love of God and neighbor over strict obedience to an unyielding Father God. Unlike the confident dictum of the old hymn, "Trust and Obey" is not the best way to govern a state.

.......

I hope some of them wake up before it is too late and they start to vote for their own good and not the good of some billionaires they will never meet!

[WinkyDink]

107. My fellow citizens are the stupidest on the planet.

[RKP5637]

116. Yep, truer words have not been spoken. The Stupid is overwhelming and

seemingly contagious.

[H2O Man]

114. Recommended.

It can be discouraging, sometimes. Many of the battles that people of our generation fought for, suffered to change, and even died for, have mutated and come back in a more henious way.

There are times when I look out and think (pardon my language), "What the f_uck? How could members of our generation have betrayed the values and ideals that defined our era?"

We can do what we can do. And the most powerful thing an individual can do is to change, to create change around her/himself. That is harsh, but it is the cold reality of living in this land today.

[jaysunb]

120. You ask.

How could members of our generation have betrayed the values and ideals that defined our era?"

Well, there was a sizable number of our generation that did NOT share our values and ideals. Many were obedient to their parents ideas about morality,race,war and many other depression era concepts.
I served w/ guys in Vietnam that think just like todays teabaggers...in fact, I'm sure they're probably the same ones.
There were many that hung around rallies and other gatherings to take advantage of the "free love & dope" but beat a path back to the cocoon of the right before anyone noticed.

This crowd--along w/ their parents-- became Ronald Reagans base. They have wreaked havoc on America every since. It's a battle that never ends.....

[Maraya1969]

118. I think a good way to respond to these people is to question their Christianity

I've done some of this. Remind them that Jesus said to lover you neighbor, take care of the sick, take care of the children, feed the hungry, heal the sick, forgive your neighbor 70 X 70 and that thing about how it is easier for a rich person to get through the eye of a needle than get to Heaven.

And then something like, "I know real Christians and you are no Christian."

Also mention that the heads of the fundamentalist Christian church are very powerful and wealthy people who feed the ones underneath them these lies so they can stay powerful.

Tell them to follow the "Good" Christians as there are plenty of them.

[okieinpain]

119. sorry but I just can't agree with some who say it's never been

worse as now. sorry not when I can remember segregated lunch counters, and I'm not even talking about the deep south. nope this is just what happens when people take stuff for granted.

I'd bet you 100 dollars that if you can find the results for any state from the midterms the total vote count was either just below normal or about the same from 4 years ago. for all of loud talk about the people not wanting dems, it was really nobody went and voted nobody but a bunch of tea party people.

[DeschutesRiver]

121. Reminds me of a story I read about an impoverished area in Saudi Arabia

Despite all the oil revenue that pours into SA, not a one member of that parasitic "lucky sperm" club of "royals" would spend one dime to get those poor people things like sewers...or any water that they didn't have walk god knows how far in the heat to obtain....or even some kind of shelter (there were ill people and disabled people who lived on the street corners begging for food, for real). It wouldn't even more than what would represent a single drop or two in the bucket of royal revenue to make these "subjects" lives survivable, bearable, better.

But the response was that nothing would ever be done to alleviate that kind of immense, unfathomable poverty, or add any measure of basic services to these poorest neighborhoods, because the way they were living was "Allah's will". Pigs.

I thought that was the lamest excuse I'd ever heard for refusing, in the face of more than adequate, otherwise squandered wealth, to band together in support of making all lives a bit better. Nothing you'd ever see in a civilized nation.

And yet, here it is, that kind of mentality trying to re-establish its hold on American life - a bunch of rich people using religion and leading gullible but low IQ people to support these kind of stupid freaking notions (all to enable life NOT to change for the wealthiest power brokers here in the US).

Those tea partiers who think it should be left to their "god's will" whose shelter or lives will be destroyed will be the first ones screaming when it happens to them. Some days, I am starting to really dislike people (though being a loner already at 53 suggests that this isn't much of a change of habit).

[DreamSmoker]

122. I also am afraid

I too have grown up in the same era..
I was taught back then that we are all Americans..
To day its slice, dice, separate, and persecute...
All the very important issues are all politicized and turned into a discussion that devised us..

I still remember that morning after the tower fell too.. Now that was the very last time all of us were all together on anything in America..

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flakey_foont]

128. Raven,

Wish I had something brilliant to say to give you encouragement and some hope..
there is still kindness and compassion and tolerance in the world, and there are lots of
people who desire peace and toleration and fairness...

it is said that the darkest hour is just before dawn

[madrchsod]

129. you joined the club.....

i had to go on ss at 62 because of no hope to find a job. 0 savings do to the years of my trade going overseas. at the end of this year i`ll have medicare which will take a large amount of money from my ss check. if i`m lucky i`ll get a job as a walmart doorman in a couple of years.

i never thought this country would turn into what it is today.

[LiberalEsto]

142. That's why I can't wait to be 62 - no job

Five of the six newspapers I worked for have gone out of business.
My skills are obsolete and there's no money for re-training.
No pension, zero savings, and no job for the past 2 years, 5 months.
I'm one husband away from poverty.
I hope Social Security still exists when I turn 62 three years from now, but it's looking dicey.

And what my kids will face -- I can't even imagine.

We need to turn this country around and make it a place where the government serves and takes care of the people, not the wealthy and the corporations. Wouldn't that be nice?

[madrchsod]

153. we`ll get ours ..the problem is 30 yrs and out

[Carolina]

130. they are thoughtless

soulless, heartless, selfish fools who are further destroying this country which is already in serious decline.

What fools these mortals be...

[davidthegnome]

131. Generally...

I find that such people are very bitter at heart, for one reason or another. It's sad that they are forcing everyone else to suffer along with them. These sorts of people who generally call themselves Christians apparently never paid much attention to what Christ had to say (or at least what all versions of the bible indicate that he said).

No... I don't see how to stop them either. Charity, mercy, generosity, these things mean nothing to these so called Christian Conservatives. Misery loves company - in my humble opinion it is their own deep self loathing and guilt (often the result of their "religious ideals") that makes them as they are. I would pity them if they weren't bringing down everyone else with them. To some extent I do pity them, but I also can't help but despise their misguided ideals along with their blind faith.

No offense intended towards any Christians on the left. I have a hard time understanding how anyone who has read their bible or admires the Jesus in it could possibly follow such a misguided agenda as the Tea Party group. It simply boggles my mind.

[valerief]

133. How do you fight "crazy"? It's impossible. They need to disappear through attrition, I fear.

My life isn't that long. And Fox keeps manufacturing more of them.

[Enthusiast]

136. I share your concerns. K&R nt

[TxVietVet]

137. After I returned from Vietnam, as time went on, I came to realize

that many of my "friends" were becoming greedier and greedier. Most of them dodged the draft because they had connections to do so and also to get the "good" jobs in the area.

I couldn't put my finger on it for a long time until I finally realized that they were what today is called a conservative or a conservanazi. They forget their roots, their upbringing and have no concept of "us". They can't figure out that we are all in this together.

Where I'm living now is a bible-thumping conservanazi community with lots of poor folks. They can't afford a dentist but can afford to smoke. Go figure. When I bring up the fact that Fox isn't the news, they damn near want to fight. So, I'll work a little with the Democratic Party's distric council here for a bit. However, I will tell them the party has to become what it was, not republiklan lite.

If they ain't part of the solution, then they are part of the problem.

[Faygo Kid]

140. Another DU thread - Waxman: 'All That Seems To Matter Is What Koch Industries Think'

Pretty much says it all as to where we are today and what our future holds. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x560655

[TNLib]

141. Unfortunately our citizenry is getting dumber

nt

[Raksha]

143. Your life story reads almost like mine, because I also just turned 65.

Coincidentally, I also got married at 23 and remember the same national traumas and catastrophes that you do. About the only significant difference is that my husband wasn't a Vietnam vet. He enlisted right out of high school, went to signal school after basic training and spent most of his enlistment in Germany, at Camp King near Frankfort.

He is still classified as a "Vietnam-era vet" because he barely escaped Vietnam by the skin of his teeth. Many of the guys he served with who had only a few months longer to go on their enlistments were kept on active duty and reassigned. I can't remember now whether he received his final discharge before or after we were married. I do remember him saying, "They can't touch me ever again."

Re "When I ask them about reductions in emergency services (fire police, emts) they tell me that it is God's will...some houses will burn, people will die...it is God's will.

When I press the question, they finally admit that they don't have enough of "theirs" so no one else should either."

How ANYONE could possibly believe that the clear results of human callousness--and their OWN callousness, no less!--are "God's will" is almost enough to make me believe in an actual devil or force of evil. Nobody comes to this kind of perversion on their own...do they??? This is not the teaching of any recognized religion except maybe Satanism (I don't actually know).

I know how widespread this belief is in fundamentalist circles has become over the past 30 years or so, mostly spread by the Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists. I also know it derives from Calvinism and the notion of predestination. But it's the intention to propagate such a belief among the ignorant superstitious masses, along with the malevolence to carry out this mass brainwashing project over decades, that strikes me as nothing less than satanic. It indicates the presence of an actual evil will on the part of the authoritarian leaders--the authoritarian religious leaders in this case.

I don't know where that evil will comes from or what it is, and I'll never understand it. Why would anyone even WANT to turn the concept of human brotherhood and solidarity on its head like that? The only thing I know is that we have to fight it with everything we've got. Our survival as a species depends on it.

[derby378]

144. Six horrific words: "Fuck you and fuck your son"

This was actually yelled at a Camp Casey protester in 2005 by one of the FReepers who decided to counter-protest the camp - and it was in response to the revelation that the Camp Casey protester had a son in the military who was stationed in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

Inside every Republican there is a Democrat trying to get out. Inside most FReepers and many of these teabaggers, however, is something that should never be allowed to see the light of day. It is vile.

[Raksha]

147. I don't remember that one, but I do remember the chant of "We don't care!"

from the counter-demonstrators at Camp Casey. "We don't care! We don't care!" chanted over and over again. I thought it was very revealing. Did they actually believe it was going to inspire or convince anyone?

How very impressive: "We don't care!" Ummm...yeah, okay. I'll take your word for it.

[spooked911]

148. sounds like a form of nihilism

sad, but does explain much. Thanks for the story.

[entanglement]

150. This isn't much, but it's likely your interaction / peer group skews your

impressions unfavorably. Largely conservative white people aged 55 and above - the group you most likely interact with socially - are less representative of America's future than her past. Don't get me wrong; the idiocy of the RW is pervasive across age-groups, but it is undeniably more entrenched in that demographic. Objective forces are awakening class feelings in the long suffering working class; racial diversity in America is increasing, and more are people waking up to the fact that the parasitic wealthy, financial "wizards" etc. are a burden.

It is thus less likely that the younger, browner, poorer generations will follow in the footsteps of RW Christian fundamentalists. At the very least, there will be (I hope!) some opposing force that fights for a just social and economic order, rational thought, tolerance, inclusion, peace and the need to organize society to meet the needs of many rather than the greed of a few.

/edit: format

[CommonSensePLZ]

151. Sounds like it's time to move

Sounds like your area is being overrun by not very reasonable people.

[KatyaR]

158. I'm 53, single, no children or family, and I'm terrified.

I live month to month, better than some, but one wrong move and I'll be done for.

Is it bad to wish for a terminal disease so you can die sooner? I feel bad that I think like that, but I do. There's not much joy in life when you have to second guess everything, and I don't remember the last time I felt joyous.

[Vinca]

161. How did the election shake out? Was it a teabagger nightmare?

[russspeakeasy]

163. I have a few years on you and I feel the same.