The opposite of a 'Tiger Mother': leaving your children behind

[LoZoccolo]

Rahna Reiko Rizzuto says that she never wanted to be a mother.

"I had this idea that motherhood was this really all-encompassing thing," she explained on the Today Show, where she was talking about her new memoir, "Hiroshima in the Morning." "I was afraid of being swallowed up by that."

Ten years ago, when her sons were 5 and 3, Rizzuto received a fellowship to spend six months in Japan, researching a book about the survivors of Hiroshima. Four months in, when her children came to visit, she had an epiphany: She didn't want to be a full-time mother anymore. When she returned to New York, she ended her 20-year marriage and chose not to be her kids' custodial parent.

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-opposite-of-a-tiger-mother-leaving-your-children-behind-2460982

[HEyHEY]

1. Oh, I'm sure they're fine....

:rolling eyes:

How is this different than a deadbeat dad pissing off?

[Tunkamerica]

9. I don't think it is different. Except the article doesn't seem to leap to the same conclusions it

would if she were male.

[HEyHEY]

11. Yeah, were it a guy moving to "be with his old lady" in Nevada

He'd be scum of the earth, but since it's a woman quitting to work at a University it's okay.

[joshcryer]

15. It wouldn't be a story if the roles were reversed.

There are plenty of men who give up custody and follow court orders.

[Tunkamerica]

16. and write books?

[joshcryer]

18. Probably a few.

[Darth_Kitten]

25. Exactly.

n/t

[joshcryer]

14. Deadbeat dads aren't the same as custody battles with amicable endings.

But I assume you read the article and know that.

[Tunkamerica]

17. Nope but treated the same in some people's minds

[joshcryer]

19. Not mine.

[joshcryer]

53. I see what you mean, though.

[HEyHEY]

34. No, but someone dumping their child off on the other parent

No matter what the reason isn't good. And here we all are cutting her slack for it.

[joshcryer]

38. Not really, I'd cut anyone slack for "dumping their child off on the other parent" if they...

...followed the courts custody requirements. It's really simple!

[HEyHEY]

39. I'm sure that'll be a comfort to the five-year-olds with abandonment issues

[joshcryer]

45. I doubt you know anything about custody hearings because that sort of thing is addressed.

[Romulox]

61. LULz. The Family Court will "address" any hurt feelings on the part of the 5 y.o.!

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

79. Yes, they'll discuss issues like how a child might be affected by a long move away.

They'll mandate things like mandatory phone calls and such.

Laugh it up big boy.

[Romulox]

87. "mandatory phone calls and such"?

Below you refer to "custody courts", which do not exist. Here you refer to powers not held by a judge. And you woefully under-estimate what it takes to restore the confidence of an abandoned little boy.

You simply don't know of what you speak.

[DaisyDeedles]

2. I don't think those are the only choices.

Amy the Tiger Mother is a self-serving control freak asshole. The mothers in this story, while they may be characterized as selfish, aren't necessarily her antithesis. They seem a lot nicer and more grounded than she is.

But, still, I don't think "micro-managing despot" and "leave your kids to pursue your own dreams" are the only choices.

[HEyHEY]

3. Pff, next you're gonna say a balance of child independence and strict guidance can be met

Whatever, nutjob!

[DaisyDeedles]

4. Heh heh.

:)

[petronius]

5. "I had to leave my children to find them" - kind of threw up in my mouth a little

right at that point, I hate that bullshit self-serving psychobabble - if you don't want to be a parent, fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking you've done something wise or noble or particularly good for your kids...

[Bonobo]

22. I agree completely, accept for this part:

"if you don't want to be a parent, fine".

No, it is not fine. You had the children. They need a mother who loves them and shows it (by not leaving them).

If it means she had to sacrifice her WAAANTS, then too bad.

The kids should not be made to suffer or treated to a psychology experiment for her "spiritual self-involvement".

[petronius]

89. You're right, of course. I didn't really mean "fine" in a positive sense, or even

to mean that it was acceptable. In my head, the tone was more "If you to be a responsibility-shirking self-absorbed tool that's your right, nobody can stop you. But don't bother us with your nonsense, and don't think you're not awful."

It was actually a pretty stinging version of "fine" - the kind that makes grown men tremble and cats hide under the bed - but it didn't translate as well as I hoped... :)

[JeffersonChick]

6. Opposites?

Neither scenario is good for the KIDS! I see it more as 2 sides of the same coin rather than opposites

[Abq_Sarah]

7. Some people just shouldn't have kids

[upi402]

8. It's not unique at all anymore

I know for certain.

[Tunkamerica]

I see this has received some unrecs. I almost did too, except it's an interesting topic.

To unrecommend because you disagree is missing the point of the feature.

[joshcryer]

13. Probably an attempt to reignite the "kids don't bring joy" thread.

Should've editorialized for effect.

[Tunkamerica]

10. double click ...ignore

[msanthrope]

12. Narcissist reproduces, then claims victimization. Leaves to pursue

adulation parenthood does not provide. Tells self the kids are fine.

What a selfish person.

[xchrom]

20. recommend -- interesting topic. nt

[cali]

21. you'd think she's have figured all this out prior to having them

talk about a lack of self-knowledge.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. People put more thought into

the new Smart Phone they're going to buy than if/when they will have children. Too many people just pop them out, thinking that's what they're supposed to do now, then find out that it's extremely hard work and too many end up being really shitty parents.

[AngryAmish]

23. Human garbage

If there was justice in the world she would be drowned in a used toilet. Alas, there is not justice and violence is wrong.

[Darth_Kitten]

24. Why, for doing what too many men do, yet they never get any flack?

I guess those men should be drowned in a used toilet. :sarcasm:

[Bonobo]

26. Men abandon their families without being criticized?

Not where I grew up.

[Darth_Kitten]

27. Men give up custody....

it's so common it's a non-issue.

[Bonobo]

30. That's minimalizing what she did by a lot.

How could those kids have felt anything but abandoned.

1. She leaves her 2 kids for 6 months to pursue her own agenda in Japan.
2. She decides that she likes not being "burdened" by kids and leaves goes back to get a divorce and abandon the kids, leaving them wit her husband.
3. She further exploits her bad behavior by making it into a book to make some do-re-mi.

If a man did that, we would assume that he found another woman (probably younger) and that he was a selfish prick. No one would say he was a "good dad".

[seabeyond]

31. did anyone say she was a good mom? anyone patting her on back for any reason?

i can't see any gender difference from this woman and what people would do with a father.

some people are nurturers, some people are not.

[Bonobo]

32. I would say she is patting herself on the back a bit, yes.

She even says it was better for the kids.

She is profiting off of her own bad behavior.

[seabeyond]

33. so wht she is patting self on back. most selfish people do, and justify behavior

for you to state there is a gender difference because she pats herself on back is ridiculous.

and, maybe it is better for the kids to not have a mother.... or father..... tht is going to create an healthy environment for them.

[joshcryer]

35. And you'd be wrong to assume that "he was a selfish prick" if he followed the court orders.

If he did everything the custody court wanted of him, and, mind you, we're talking about a divorce here, if the man did everything the court required, anyone talking shit about that guy is human garbage.

That is where the bullshit gets perpetuated, assuming shit about men who do follow the custody requirements to the T.

[joshcryer]

28. Another person who didn't read the article.

For fucks sake.

[Bonobo]

29. I read the article. nt

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

40. You equated this woman to a deadbeat dad, which indicates that you in fact didn't read it.

There's no equivalence.

[HEyHEY]

41. Yes there is abandoning your child emotionally and sluffing natural parental responsibilities

Know no court system. I'm starting to wonder if YOU read the article

[joshcryer]

42. So you're saying she should not have accepted the fellowship?

She should've stayed home and been a good housewive? :puke:

[HEyHEY]

43. Why are you discriminating against women?

Assuming they cannot hold a fellowship and help raise their children, like the father in this relationship has too, is completely sexist.

[joshcryer]

44. Oh so she should have accepted the fellowship and uprooted her children.

And been a good mommy to boot!

[HEyHEY]

46. Are you suggesting a woman is incapable of accomplishing all that?

[joshcryer]

47. Not at all, it's perfectly feasible that she could have uprooted her children to Japan.

But it's nice to see where you're going with this. The welfare of the children is certainly not something you give a shit about.

[HEyHEY]

48. You're the one who thinks it's cool if they don't have a mother.

Also, yes, taking them to Japan, that cross-cultural experience would totally destroy them! Scared for life!

I see kids all the TIME over here with their parents for six month contracts and such.

[joshcryer]

50. I think it's cool if they don't have a father in the conventional sense, too.

I think the custody courts try their best to determine what is right for the children and I do not fault or hate on this woman any more than I would a male who decided he did not want custody.

It is a hard concept to fathom, I understand.

[HEyHEY]

51. Also, she left for good, not just six months

Again with the courts. Yeah, the USA is full of kids who are well-adjusted thanks to the court system :eyes:

[joshcryer]

52. She had joint custody for 2 years after that. Thought you read the article?

Finally she gave up custody.

[HEyHEY]

54. I did read the article, you're the one cherry picking it

She's left, gone... gone....gone....

[joshcryer]

55. Yeah, she only talks to her kids regularly and all, but she's gone, gone, gone.

You really have no clue about custody hearings whatsoever. I've been through it (as an uncle observer). She would not have been able to move 3000 miles away unless she could show that she would be an central part of the childrens lives still. Because of Skype etc she was able to show that she could be there in a non-conventional sense.

So let's say you're right, she's an evil evil evil person.

Is it also wrong for males to give up custody?

Is giving up custody a completely immoral act, period?

[HEyHEY]

62. You can't hug a phonecall

If you're in a divorce and it's bad for the kids, fine. I get that. But to, out of nowhere say, "bye!" To pursue your own interests, there's something not right.


I'm well aware of how custody hearings work, BTW, you make too many judgements about posters here.

[joshcryer]

69. Yeah, she really went "bye!" to persue her own interests.

We've already established that the kids went through 2 years of joint custody before she finally moved. We've already established that the courts gave the father full custody. What more is there to say? You're being completely misleading about what the woman did.

She's framing it as if she bailed but if she did that in reality there'd have to be a footnote in the article about how she was prosecuted for abandonment, a very real issue many thousands of deadbeat dads out there create and are charged for.

[HEyHEY]

63. You can't hug a phonecall

If you're in a divorce and it's bad for the kids, fine. I get that. But to, out of nowhere say, "bye!" To pursue your own interests, there's something not right.


I'm well aware of how custody hearings work, BTW, you make too many judgements about posters here.

[seabeyond]

57. she should have no more claim than the father. father wasnt going becuase she wanted to.

wo why wouldnt kids stay with father, who as far as we know, wants to be a parent?

i am not getting why you feel that because she went to japan, the kids should have to go, without father?

[joshcryer]

59. And they visited her while she was there so it wasn't like she abandoned them by taking the job.

[seabeyond]

64. i dont pat her on back for any of this. i hope kids are getting what they need from dad

but i really dont see it any different from the gazillions of males that allow/expect mom to be custodial parent and go on with their lives. neither get a pat. many do. both genders. i hope she is able to give the kids what they need from a distance.

[HEyHEY]

73. Absolutely, it's no different

I wouldn't pat anyone on the back for this. You know a guy I would pat on the back? A friend of mine's brother in law. He had two kids with his wife and five years into their marriage was diagnosed with szchyophrenia. Over the next few years it got worse. He couldn't really take care of himself. So, he persuaded his wife not only to divorce him, but find a new man that could be a suitable father for their kids. I can't' imagine how hard that was for him.

[seabeyond]

75. i can go with that. nt

[joshcryer]

74. So if a male gives up custody but pays child support he's a bad guy?

Now we're getting somewhere.

[seabeyond]

76. if a male gives up custody, pays support, yet does not connect with children, assure them

of place and love, do the parental role

he is a selfish man not fulfilling a role the child needs. hopefully the other parent will be able to put the rejection in a proper perspective where the child will not take it personally, understand it has nothing to do with them, but the father himself and have a healthy foundation to walk into adulthood.

i am a believer that both roles, father and mother, are important to children of either gender.

[joshcryer]

77. Giving up custody does not mean having no role.

This woman doesn't "have no role" in her kids' life.

[seabeyond]

81. if she is giving the children what they need on an emotional level

then i see it no different from all the families that divorce and have to create a healthy life for all

[joshcryer]

84. Agreed.

Divorces which lead in one adult having custody does not necessarily mean the other adult is bad. Male or female. That's all I've been saying.

FYI I think the woman was a bitch (mainly because she shouldn't have had kids if she didn't fucking want them) and I've been playing devils advocate this whole time. :rofl:

Ahh. :hi:

[seabeyond]

86. gotcha....

:hi:

[HEyHEY]

66. Japan is a red herring, people leave for six months all the time, it's when she came back,....n/t

[seabeyond]

67. agreed. nt

[joshcryer]

71. When she came back she filed for divorce and had joint custody for 2 years?

Seriously? I cannot believe this discussion is going on for so long and you're failing to grasp the custodial aspect of this case. It is very similar to if a man were to want a divorce and not desire to have custody, joint or otherwise.

[HEyHEY]

82. And after the two years, what happened? THe two years is irrelevant

I can't believe we're discussing this without you acknowledging what happened after the two years. And you are failing to grasp that custodial is called custodial for a reason. It's not the same as having your parent around all the time.

[joshcryer]

85. nm

pointless

[WolverineDG]

49. I thought the opposite of "Tiger Mother" would be "Let them do whatever the fuck they want"

So glad I grew up in a time when kids could be "free range."

dg

[GoCubsGo]

56. OT, but that brings up an interesting question...

Do "free range" kids, whose parents "let them do whatever the fuck they want", tend to be more creative than the ones who were raised in highly structured lives by their "Tiger Mothers"?

[seabeyond]

58. i haven't seen good come from the "whatever they want" parenting.

mostly, disastrous. but i would imagine has to do with kids personality. would be complimentary to some personalities.

[WolverineDG]

78. I was "free range," but my parents definitely set rules & had standards

There's a difference between "free range" & feral kids, btw.

No failing grades, home by dinner, always check in, let mom or dad know where you are, etc. We watched whatever my dad wanted to watch on TV. Thank God my parents weren't control freaks who demanded we never have friends, or go to sleepover parties or birthday parties or refused to let us participate in extracurricular activities of OUR choice (not theirs). The only class my mom demanded that both my younger brother & I take was typing, & in the summer, we went to the library every week & joined the reading competitions. My brother played Little League baseball & football, I was in choir, took piano lessons off & on, & participated in singing competitions. My older brother went to State 4 times in number sense & slide rule. Since my parents taught us how to take care of ourselves & not burn the house down, they *occasionally* left us alone at home while they went out to dinner or even out of town over night. None of us ended up in juvvie & all of us are productive members of society today.

What did Tiger Mom kids do? Nothing.

dg

[seabeyond]

83. "free range" & feral kids

lol lol. glad you made the distinction. what you experienced sounds normal. i hear ya.

[JoDog]

60. The first line in the story

says it all: "Rahna Reiko Rizzuto says that she never wanted to be a mother."

Then why did she have kids? We need to work to make it more acceptable in our society for men and women to simply say "no" to the choice of parenthood.

[Bonobo]

65. Do you know any kids that wouldn't be hurt to hear their parents say that?

She has no regard for her children's feelings.

[seabeyond]

72. depends how goof the parent is or how good a person parent is. i have an aunt

that is not a nurturer. a good person, but had a nervous breakdown after four daughters and staying at home. she went to work. her hubby, the father raised the girls. role reversal and it works for them. she loves them. she is not a nurturer though.

[seabeyond]

68. i really think it is a zillion times easier today. i have four female cousins and four male

cousins no kids. they are all 40's and older so thinkin they are not doing it. i have more cousins without kids than all of us with kids.

i agree. dont want them, dont have them.... please

[Romulox]

70. Massive narcissism rules the day.

My guess is that the potential audience for Ms. Rizzuto's book will be eager to find justifications for their own selfishness and greed in her book. It is a misguided search, of course; narcissism is its own reward.

[Bunny]

80. Common wisdom used to be that when a couple was experiencing

marital problems, they stayed together for the sake of the children. I think we've since learned that growing up in a home where both parents are miserable and hate each other is far more damaging than when the two parents can live separate, happier lives and still nurture and care for their children.

If this woman was so unhappy with her parenting duties, I think it may be better for her kids that she's not raising them. For her to portray herself as heroic is a bit too much, but I give her credit for recognizing the problem and dealing with it in the best way she could.

[LoZoccolo]

88. kick

:kick: