Down and Out on $250,000 a Year

[Hannah Bell]

Here's the bullshit header:

$250,000 and poor

A family of four with an annual income of $250,000 may be in the top 2.9 percent of earners. But after taxes and basic expenses, they are far from the affluent family they may seem to be.

Here's the sob story:

The analysis assumes that this hypothetical couple – let’s call them Mr. and Mrs. Jones – are each on the payroll of companies, with professional positions. They take advantage of all tax benefits available to them, such as pretax contributions to 401(k) plans and medical, childcare and transportation flexible spending accounts. They have no credit card debt, but Mr. Jones racked up $40,208 in student loan debt in undergraduate and graduate school, and Mrs. Jones borrowed $22,650 to get her undergraduate degree (both amounts are equal to the national averages for their levels of education). They also have a car loan on one of two cars, and a mortgage for 80 percent of the value of a typical home in their communities for a family of four, which includes one toddler and one school-age child.

The bottom line: It’s not exactly easy street for our $250,000-a-year family, especially when it lives in high-tax areas on either coast. Even with an additional $3,000 in investment income, they end up in the red — after taxes, saving for retirement and their children’s education, and a middle-of-the-road cost of living — in seven out of the eight communities in the analysis. The worst: Huntington, N.Y., and Glendale, Calif., followed by Washington, D.C., Bethesda, Md., Alexandria, Va., Naperville, Ill. and Pinecrest, Fla. In Plano, Texas, the couple’s balance sheet would end up positive, but only by $4,963.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/The-Economy/2010/12/07/Down-and-Out-on-250000-a-Year

Um, excuse me? 97% of the population makes less, but we're supposed to feel sorry about the family of four who can barely make it on $253K -- after, in Huntington NY:


- MAXIMIZING contributions to two 401K's ($33,000/year)

- paying the $3000/mo mortgage on their house in a neighborhood appropriate for their income class

- paying $10,000 a year for "maintenance & cleaning" of their home

- paying over $5000 a year to park their cars

- $8000 a year saving for their kids' college

- $1583 a month for day care, babysitting, after-school activities, & camp for the kiddies

- paying the medical & dental insurance

- $520 a month for meals not cooked at home

- $246 a month on clothing

- $230 a month on phone, internet, cable

- $4000 a year for the family vacation

- $599 a month on gifts, entertainment, entertaining at home

- $130 a month on the dog


and the poor dears only have $4000 left at the end of the year after paying total taxes of 29.9% (federal + alternative minimum, social security, state income, sales tax, property tax)

sob.


http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/The-Economy/2010/12/07/Down-and-Out-on-250000-a-Year


even *after* paying *all* their taxes they make more than 3/4 of the population makes before taxes.

[Dappleganger]

1. 4K per year for a family vacation??

I don't even dream that big!

But seriously, those are some huge expenses for having kids that young. That's part of the problem--the monthly expenses are too high from living high, then when one loses a job or gets downsized they complain about it.

[Hannah Bell]

3. i remember several threads at DU where people gave advice to the proles on how to save

money.

maybe they could do the same for this family: looks like they need it more than the proles.

disgusting. "poor" = the family that can put $33K a year into their retirement accounts? that's more than about 1/3 of families make in a year.


most people don't even *have* DENTAL, & would kill to have enough income to pay the premiums for it. bad teeth = signal of class in america.

[mudplanet]

6. I'm fairly sure median income in the US is around $40K, what the riches but away for a rainy day

[Hannah Bell]

14. Median household income 2009 = $49.7K (census)

http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/acsbr09-2.pdf

Median family income = $61K

Male full-time workers' median income = $46K

Female full-time workers' median income = $36K

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income_wealth/cb10-144.html

http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

[blueamy66]

Amen.

This story makes me want to puke.

[Mimosa]

69. ^Exactly. The family profiled live wastefully! ^

They have 2 kids (and there's nothing wrong with that at all) and their health insurance runs them 4, 213 a year. I assume an emplyer picks up the majority.

My partner and I -both over 55, no kids- pay $895 a month for a $10,000 BC/BS policies per person deductible, 70/30 PPO. No Rx coverage until $10,000 deductible is met.

Being self employed and one of us (me) too sick to work but not qualified for SSI, our yearly income varies between as low as $33,000 to as high as $78,000. It's usually in the middle somewhere (like in the 40K range). But high medical and dental expenses as well as the extra FICA for self -employed people keep us from being able to get ahead. Some years we fall behind on Fed taxes because we seem to like to eat food and we're too scare to drop health insurance. Dental has costs us more as we get older. The post-Katrina expenses of paying a mortgage (and other repair expenses) on our house in New Orleans while we were paying rent up here in Atlanta set us back too.

We haven't had a vacation since 2001!

The oinkers described get no sympathy from me. 'Entertainment expenses' of nearly $600 a month? Ours are in that area for a year!

BTW, Steven Spielberg is going to help advise the Democratic party on 'rebranding'.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/democratic-party/steven-spielberg-advising-nanc.html

I'm sure he's just the type to know how to relate to the financial difficulties of such ordinary people as 'the Jones family' in that article!:rofl:

[blueamy66]

24. Don't have the kids.

Easy as pie. And get rid of the dog.

We don't have a dog right now for exactly that reason...we cannot afford one.

People are fucking stupid.

[Hannah Bell]

29. not when you already have them. not a solution to a current budget crisis,

not for low-income people, not for the wealthy.

it's a rotten thing to throw that at anyone.

[blueamy66]

32. What part of "DON'T GIVE BIRTH TO CHILDREN" is so hard

to understand?

I cannot afford children, I am not responsible enough to have them, I don't like them THAT much....what don't you get?

[Hannah Bell]

35. how many times do you have to offer this useless & nasty "advice"?

[blueamy66]

38. Um, daily

when dumbasss co-workers ask me when I am gonna have a kid.

I'm freaking 44 years old. The answer is NEVER.

Why is my good advice, which is to NOT HAVE KIDS IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD THEM, nasty?

Do you think that having children is a right??????

I am sick of having my tax dollars paying for unwanted kids cause 2 grown people can't keep it in their pants.

[Hannah Bell]

40. because the advice is being offered to people who already have kids,

& whose situations may have changed, through no fault of their own, since they made the decision to have kids.

it's regularly & uselessly offered as advice to poor people who already have kids, & means, essentially, "you stupid fuck-ups".

not helpful to anyone who has children; just an attack.

for the record, i have no children. but i know many people whose situations have changed since they had theirs.

[blueamy66]

44. Just don't have them.

"Poor" people SHOULDN'T have kids,.....cause they CANNOT afford them.

Again, having kids isn't a RIGHT.

I'm not attacking either...but quit with the children....Jesus Christ.

[Hannah Bell]

50. um, you do realize that something as simple as getting laid off can

change one from "middle-class" to "poor" don't you?

of course you do.

and, again: telling people they shouldn't have children when they already have them is useless & attacking.

i also take issue with the logic of your post: that the biological function of reproduction is or should be a special right reserved only to the middle or upper classes.

[blueamy66]

102. Having children SHOULD be a right.

Watch "16 and Pregnant" on MTV. Then you'll understand.

Hey, my 2 nieces have kids....they cannot afford them, but both work their asses off to put food on the table and clothes on their backs. Do I wish they never had the beauties? Hell No.....I just wish they would have waited a while.

What don't you understand? My fiance and I make over $100k a year and we CHOOSE to not have any more kids (he has an 18 year old from a previous relationship). I cannot afford the costs....that's why we don't have any fucking pets either.

I should just delete this post. Some people just don't understand.

[hfojvt]

206. $100,000 a year and you cannot afford a dog?

I make $13,000 a year and have 3 of them. Which is two too many.

[blueamy66]

245. :-)

Have you ever had to put a dog down?

That is part of the "cost" for me.

And we make $100k before taxes and child support.

[Dappleganger]

195. Most people don't get that.

[blueamy66]

263. Sorry, just don't agree with you.

I don't have kids for many reasons, but the NUMBER ONE reason is because I DON'T WANT THE EXPENSE!

Get it?

[Papagoose]

105. Having children is not a right? Really?

If reproduction is not a right, then what is it???

[ProudDad]

161. Given the fact that humans have overshot the carrying capacity of the Earth

a huge mistake... :shrug:

[blueamy66]

259. thank you

now I don't need to type an answer

[blueamy66]

262. Ask a woman that can't conceive.

I'm sure she'll have a good answer for you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. So if a family that can afford kids loses their job, what should they do?

Give the kids back?

[snooper2]

130. I'm sure your co-workers ask you all the time

just waiting for that chipper response I'm sure they would expect

[blueamy66]

260. THEY DO.

Come live my life sometime buster.

I love kids, but don't want any of my own. I have enough nieces, nephews, great nieces and great nephews.....and a stepson.....I DON'T WANT MY OWN KID. How fucking hard is that for people to understand?

It's bullshit for people to quiz me on a weekly basis about when I'm gonna have "one of my own". FUCKING NEVER!!!! GOT IT????

[hfojvt]

205. that is a silly question to ask a female who is 44

maybe they think you look 37.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

184. Not having children will put our economy into a disaster.

Remember that as you enjoy your SS later on, my kids are helping to fund that!!

[dkf]

30. $4,000 high? With $500/ticket x 4 and you are already at $2,000

$200/night x 10 days for a hotel and the whole amount is spent. Or 7 days and you have got $600 left. $50 per day for a car and you have $250 left for food/tips/entrance fees etc.

[Hannah Bell]

33. you fly somewhere for your family vacations?

not possible to cut back on that?

when i was a kid our family vacations consisted of tent camping. we never stayed in a hotel for any vacation we ever went on. they were great vacations. we didn't feel deprived. when we got older we got to bring our friends.

[dkf]

37. We are in Hawaii.

I guess we could go to a hotel or something for a staycation. Even a trip to the outer islands is about $160 round trip not counting all those luggage fees.

When I was a kid we couldn't afford to go on family vacations. In fact we still haven't gone all together. There is always someone missing.

[Hannah Bell]

41. is there something terrible about driving to the beach? you live in freaking hawaii.

i think they have parks & things.

[dkf]

53. Actually I don't really like the beach. It's pretty, but the sand gets everywhere and it's hot!

I'd rather see the beach from my air conditioned car...and I see it every day as I drive to work.

[Hannah Bell]

56. sit in your air-conditioned house for your vacation then.

[dkf]

71. Sorry but there is no air conditioning here at home.

We pay the highest electricity rates in the country too. That makes air conditioning the place quite expensive.

[Incitatus]

252. Living near the ocean is nice, but the some people think the point of a vacation

is to get away from where you live and see something new. There is a whole world out there and when you see the beach everyday it isn't the same as having to travel hundreds if miles to be there.

[blueamy66]

103. LOL!

But Hannah still had a "come back".

[lumberjack_jeff]

141. Bwahahaha!

[right2bfree]

236. No kidding. I am crying real tears about this. I really am. nt

[mainer]

159. When we lived in Hawaii, we couldn't afford family vacations

which is why people get rock fever and eventually leave, screaming, to the mainland. And we both had very good jobs.

Beautiful place to visit, but living in a place where the nearest land mass is a 6-hour plane ride away can get tough after awhile.

[Dappleganger]

187. Well most of us don't live on a resort beach.

[pitohui]

192. the family profiled lives in new york not hawaii

there is no reason to fly on a family vacation in new york, in this part of the country you can drive or take the train to more beautiful destinations than you can visit in 18 years (assuming you take a vacation each year the kids are not in college, which at this income level, you will)

[elehhhhna]

229. BUT DAHLINK IF one LIVES in NY, ONE must GO TO St. Barths in the winter.

[blueamy66]

47. Amen.

I think that we are on the same page.

I REALY WANT TO FLY TO FLORIDA NEXT SPRING TO SEE MY STEP SON, BUT, GUESS WHAT, I CANNOT AFFORD IT!!!

What is soooo fucking hard to understand?

[dkf]

54. These people can afford it, they just don't have much extra to save if they do

The point of the story is that after all the expenses people making $250,000 don't have a lot left over.

[Hannah Bell]

55. no, the point is the financial times thinks they are "poor" because after paying for all their needs

including savings, health care, dental care --

they only have $333 a month to blow on "whatever".

but since their budget already includes entertainment, gifts, clothing, vacation, eating out, etc.

i'm not sure what's left to blow the $333 on. gold-plated chocolates? wtf do they want?

[dkf]

74. They never called these people "poor". They simply said these people aren't necessarily living like

Country club types with a second home or anything. Their life style is what you would expect from the middle class, not the elite earners.

[Hannah Bell]

76. earth to dfk: "$250K and poor" is in the heading on the picture & introductory blurb.

and the article is titled: "down & out on $250K"

[dkf]

79. Oh sorry. I was so sure that was your take on it.

All I know is if that is the ultra cushy life only the elite can aspire to we are in trouble. The American Dream isn't very secure.

[Hannah Bell]

80. nothing is secure when your livelihood is dependent on the whims of capital.

however, $250K is a nice living for a worker, and not one that most workers would consider impoverished.

the supposedly tight budget in the article is laughable to most people. the hypothetical couple saves half of their after-tax income & the financial times bills it as poverty.

[dkf]

82. Actually it says that with that level of savings they are in the red so they wouldn't be able to

fund their retirement or college savings at the maximum.

[Hannah Bell]

84. their retirement & college savings is the savings i'm talking about.

they contribute the maximum to their 401ks ($33K) and $8000 a year to their children's college fund.

look at the budget.

plus they have $4000 a year to blow. or put into other savings. or invest. or whatever, have their hair done.

[dkf]

87. Last paragraph page 1

"unfortunately, the family would also probably save less, at the expense of their retirement or their kids educations.

At the level of spending they deem normal the family would not be able to do everything described without being in the red in 7 of 8 cities they did calculations for.

[Hannah Bell]

89. well, they deem "normal" saving more than most families make in a year. they deem normal eating

lunch out every day & spending $10K a year to maintain & clean their house.

so i certainly can't argue that "at the level of spending they deem normal" they don't have enough income to be what they deem normal.

They still have more income than 97% of americans. and five times more than the median family, which is what most people think of as "normal".

[dkf]

138. I've seen condo maintenance fees around $1000 a month here for a two bedroom no less.

Supposedly that is a fair value of what it takes to maintain the property when expensed monthly

[Hassin Bin Sober]

154. Sure, if you want a door-man. And a maintenance crew.

[RobinA]

171. That's Why Us

"regular" people trying to pay back school loans with no kids and a salary of $45,000 don't save the max for retirement. According to financial "experts," I should be putting away $39,000 a year to have a safe retirement. Huh? On what planet? I'll agree it takes a sh*tload of cashola to do everything right. That's why most of us don't.

[blueamy66]

104. Easy answer.

Don't have kids...no need for college savings.

:-)

[dkf]

139. Yeah that is my solution too.

Then I can afford my cell, my cable/Internet and my parking all of which exceeds this high spending family. If I got a mortgage, I would be spending about half of their mortgage plus half of their maintenance fees. This is me x 2 except without kids.

[blueamy66]

258. I don't get the "need" to have kids,.

Hey, I love my nieces, nephews, great nieces and great nephews, but who the hell wants kids these days?

I have a stepson....we pay child support and will for another 6 years....I just don't get the "excitement" of giving birth and raising a kid.

Maybe I have issues. :-) But I don't have to buy $100 Nikes, do I?

[EOTE]

151. The middle class can afford to add more than 30k per year to their 401K

And $4000 vacations? And around $600 a month for entertainment related expenses? Well damn, I can't wait until I become middle class.

[Dappleganger]

194. If this family cut their expenses, they could be living like country club folks.

But they choose to spend nearly as much as they make and that is their problem. They haven't learned the difference between needs and wants.

[PassingFair]

208. These people are SAVING 33,000 a YEAR in their 401k's PLUS

putting aside money for their kid's colleges.

Many people I know don't MAKE $33,000 a year,
let alone have it "put aside" from their take home pay.

[JVS]

140. Don't have a step son. Problem solved.

[Foo Fighter]

239. Oh, SNAP! n/t

[blueamy66]

261. Well, aren't you a font of information.

NOT.

[JVS]

266. People shouldn't carelessly go around having stepchildren they can't afford to visit.

[blueamy66]

269. You're an ass.

I didn't know about the kid until after I fell in love with the boy's Dad.

My stepson is the light of my life.....scholarship to an awesome University and works at a grocery store too.

Um, you cannot NOT have a stepson. Those were choices made 10 years before I met his Dad.

Are you really that stupid?

Oh, and I can afford to visit him...I just got a huge Christmas bonus from the owner of my company. Going to Gainesville and buying a new set of kitchen appliances! WooHoo!

Happy Christmas Scrooge.

[Hannah Bell]

271. huh?

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. So did we

Our kids have great memories. We went somewhere every summer and always camped. Always drove there. Our vacation budget was usually less than $1000. I can't even imagine what kind of a vacation we would have taken for $4000.

[elehhhhna]

230. Snorkeling in the Caymans. And it's worth evey penny.

trust me.

[Hannah Bell]

254. hiking in the goat rocks wilderness. free, & worth just as much as snorkeling at a caymans resort.

[Dappleganger]

188. Exactly.

People seem to think they deserve the complete spa treatment when they go away for a holiday...that's ridiculous! We do usually camp or stay with friends, staying at cheap motels just to catch some sleep on the way home. Our kids LOVE our vacations, too. They enjoy fishing and going to look for shells, etc.

[GSLevel9]

227. yeah, what happened to

3 days in the car and 2 nights in seedy motels on the way to the Grand Canyon or Great Smoky Mountains?

[blueamy66]

34. Or, on the other hand, if you cannot AFFORD a vacation,

you DON'T GO ON A VACATION.

What is this American "sense of entitlement"?

Don't get it now and NEVER WILL!!!

[dkf]

45. Well we never did and never will at least not all together.

So I have no memories of a family vacation ever. The best we did was staying overnight in a tent at some camping ground without hot showers.

The biggest Irony is that my retired former state worker parents have their juicy pensions and social security checks now and they are flush and go on vacations at least 4 times a year. And they both retired at 55. Yep what a life. When Dad retired he started taking home more than when he was working.

[Hannah Bell]

52. no hot showers? for one night? omg!!!!!!!!

[dkf]

81. I'm just saying it wasn't exactly the type of vacation you dream about.

But we are better off now than when we struggled as kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. A retired state worker taking home more than when he was working?

Sure.

But seriously, if my parents had worked hard and were able to retire that comfortably, I'd be happy for them. You seem bitter. I find that sad.

[madmom]

267. Our family vacations consisted of NO hot showers at all and NO indoor plumbing. We would go to

my dad's uncles house every year for 2 weeks. He lived waaaay out in the out back in West Virginia. They had an outhouse and cold running water in the kitchen only. We had no TV at all and radio on a good day. Yet oddly I still have some fond memories of this god forsaken place. My dad enjoyed it because there were absolutely no distractions for him, so they rest of us had to make due, which we did. Oh and we always drove there.

[Luminous Animal]

48. In Europe, vacations are a matter of course. Apparently, vacations are too good for U.S. proles.

Another day older and deeper in debt.

[dkf]

83. Yep. It should be part of learning about the world or at least your own country.

[Dappleganger]

197. In Europe they live in tiny houses and drive one car, if that.

And squirrel away huge portions of their paycheck to take their yearly holidays. We have hosted numerous exchange students over the years who weren't from wealthy families, just ones who have put travel as a higher priority than videogames and mcmansions.

[comtec]

217. actually we get paid money for vacations...

In holland it was normal to get 8% bonus money, called vacation money, which was released in june to spend on a holiday.
granted it's taxed at 50%, but still, it's 8% of your yearly.
That and the 25-30 days vacation EVERYONE gets =]

I would point out that the Euro has been kicking the Dollar's ass for 7 years now, peaking at 1.6 :1 at one point.

I'm starting to miss it already... at least it never got as cold and snowey as the tundra here in MN LOL

[Dappleganger]

189. Bingo.

The sense of entitlement on this forum, for example.

[snappyturtle]

246. I hate to pop your bubble but there are countries on the planet

that recognize vacations as being vital to employees....just as they do healthcare annd education. You are correct that vacations aren't an entitlement in the U.S. but when many, myself included, have no paid time off and work six days a week to keep our heads barely above water, I don't like being told: if you can't afford a vacation you don't take one....like I didn't know. If I were younger, I would leave the U.S. just as our bailout funds have been doing.

[Dappleganger]

250. It's the haves vs. the have-nots...

the sense of entitlement has to do with many folks being caught up in not being able to distinguish needs vs. wants, then whining when they can't make ends meet while making hundreds of thousands more than the average American. Those are the people with whom I take issue.

[snappyturtle]

273. Sorry. Guess I'm always on the defensive these days. Thanks

for your kind explanation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. I don't think I have ever paid $200 a night for a hotel

That's freakin insane.

[ProudDad]

163. $500 a day for a family of 5 at Disneyland

with "meals" and lodging... :rofl:

[Dappleganger]

186. Sorry, some of us never have taken a fancy vacation like that.

The most we've spent is probably a little over 1K for a week-long trip, including food, gas and the occasional motel for 6 of us.

[Donnachaidh]

91. $130 a month on the DOG? WTF?

Does he have a masseuse? I wish I had that amount to use on my dog -- she could use a vacation LOL!

[REP]

93. Large breed dogs can eat that much easily

My cats' food and litter runs about $100/mo (Rx food).

[Hawkeye-X]

129. Indeed. We are planning a family vacation in 2012 to Israel

and we're SAVING money for that purpose. Includes tickets and possible trips to Europe for a week or so.

And it will cost us about roughly 4-6k.

My wife is squirreling a lot of money away too.

And we're not planning anything much except for an occasional trip to NY twice a year to visit family. I usually stay home.

[XemaSab]

155. Rich people don't get rich by spending all their money

I can see several areas where this hypothetical rich family could cut WAY back.

[mainer]

166. real rich people are penny pinchers

this family isn't rich. They're high-income spendthrifts.

[XemaSab]

182. The one REALLY rich family I have known

had three kids and lived in a three-bedroom house (yes, it was in Sausalito, but no McMansion this) and their son (who also grew up to be rich) drove a Ford Contour for about 5 years, then "upgraded" to a used Audi.

They knew how to live well, but they certainly knew how to save their pennies.

(And on edit: I think Sausalito was as close as dad could live to work and still have the kids go to public school. :P )

[mwooldri]

175. A family vacation? What is that please?

I haven't had one of those for quite some time!

[right2bfree]

234. Me niether. But then I dont make a tenth what they do. nt

[Incitatus]

241. That's not that bad for an income of 250K.

My last vacation was a cruise and it cost $2,500K for the room alone, not including the offshore and on ship expenses. That was for 2 people.

And if you are planning on flying somewhere (depending on the location) you could be looking at almost 1k per ticket round trip (not even first class).

That being said, some of the expenses listed are rather silly and I would have no sympathy for this hypothetical couple. Of course, I don't doubt many like them exist. I know several people with high incomes who are very wasteful. Then there are some who in addition to maxing out their 401k contributions save an additional percentage of their income for the unknown and don't buy 500K houses just because they can afford it and end up spending an additional 10k for it's maintenance.

[UndertheOcean]

2. Let them eat cake kind of story

[leveymg]

4. I know that it's hard to feel sorry for these people, but the expenses are really higher for some

of these items, and most of us make a lot less than a quarter mill a year. I live in northern Virginia, near DC. and our mortgages and expenses are killing us, and we're not really saving anywhere near that amount for retirement. We're broke, really broke.

[Hannah Bell]

5. yes, most of us make a lot less than a quarter of a million. that's my point.

looking at that budget they have a hell of a lot of room to make cuts.

most people don't.

i was doing some volunteer work today & one of the temp employees at the place i was volunteering was very happy to take 3 boxes of used & musty-smelling children's items that we didn't think we could sell at our fundraiser. they were going to be christmas gifts for her grandchildren. i could feel that she was in a world of hurt.

[leveymg]

8. We have zero room to make cuts.

Let's see, what can we do without out? No retirement, stop the kid's college fund, or no health care coverage? Stop eating or stop fueling the cars? Stop commuting and paying insurance, repairs or stop working? Our damned cable and phones are over $400 a month!

[MilesColtrane]

10. You can survive without cable TV.

Or, so I've heard.

[leveymg]

11. Try telling the wife and kids that.

Sure.

[Occulus]

94. Netflix.

$10 a month.

[Dappleganger]

191. Our family of 6 could easily cut the tv...

Netflix is the best! Get the rest on the internet.

BTW, we used to live in NoVA (Fairfax) and know that you can cut back your utilities farther. It's just that everybody else has stuff and it's hard to live like a pauper in the land of the wealthy. Trust me, most people there are just PRETENDING to be rich and are maxed out on their mortgages and credit cards like nobody's business.

[NickB79]

204. Netflix, Hulu, library rental DVD's, over-the-air channels

There are LOTS of solutions to the problem of no cable TV.

[Lorien]

242. Just cut it. Hell, I didn't have a TV for much of my childhood so I READ BOOKS

for entertainment. Can you imagine? Oh, the horror of doing what was considered a privilege enjoyed only by the educated classes in centuries past! :sarcasm: But really; cable is a complete waste, and it's a good way to ensure that you along with the rest of your family get a daily dose of corporate propaganda that keeps you subdued and perpetually consuming. Netflix provides more than enough entertainment-commercial free! And there's Hulu. Cable is for those with money to flush and brain cells to burn.

[HEyHEY]

16. My GF grew up so poor they didn't have books

And the government didn't have a ration plan for twins, so her and her sister had to split one kid's rations..... never mind not having a TV.

[lumberjack_jeff]

143. You can thrive without cable tv. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

15. i'm not talking about you. unless you make $250K & your budget resembles that of the

family in the example.

in which case, you have room to make cuts.

[leveymg]

23. I don't make that much but some of my expenses exceed those.

We have no room to make cuts without drastically altering things. Believe me, this is no life of luxury for two working people in one of the most expensive places in America to live.

[Hannah Bell]

25. "without drastically altering things" -- like cutting the cable? i don't consider that a drastic

alteration.

a drastic alteration is moving into your grandma's basement with your three kids. which is what one lady i know has had to do since her husband got laid off & started drinking, & they got foreclosed on.

[leveymg]

31. My grandma moved in with us. Really, where are we supposed to go?

Won't go into the details, but I got laid off for a while and we went so far into debt we're screwed, permanently. Already went through drastic changes.

[Hannah Bell]

39. i don't want to make the discussion about you. i'm not into that kind of thing.

if you were laid off for awhile then you're making up for lost income, & i don't know your individual situation. and you don't make $250K.

the average couple making $250K isn't "poor". that is the point of the op.

& looking over the expenses of this hypothetical family, most people who *don't* make $250K can see all kinds of places to make cuts. indeed, 1/3 of couples clear less than this couple puts into their 401Ks.

[Dappleganger]

193. Cutting cable isn't drastic.

Your family will learn to socialize with each other again.

[Kalyke]

7. I love dogs. I rescued four, but don't spend $130 A MONTH on all four of them

WTF?

One of my dogs is even on medical dog food and we don't spend $130 a month on him!

[leveymg]

9. We had a dog that we loved who had shoulder surgery and then developed cancer.

We easily spent $2500 a year on Mr. Barley during his last year.

[Kalyke]

18. I understand that, but, the scenario above didn't necessarily

include sick dog time. I think it's mostly fru-fru dog time.

[Hannah Bell]

19. in his *last* year. did you spend $1560K on him in a *routine* year? because that's what this

budget is supposed to represent. usual expenses.

[Kalyke]

42. Thanks.

That was the point I was trying to make.

I love my dogs. They get gifts on their "birthdays" (they're rescues, so we make up what day their birthdays are), they get Christmas gifts and I either cook for my sexually abused dog (yep, you read that right) or buy his special food so he doesn't get bladder stones.

I still don't spend that much on him a month unless he needs some anti-biotics.

[dkf]

57. I think I was giving my cat insulin for about 3 years.

At one point I was giving her fluids in an IV bag too. The insulin itself was about $128 a vial iirc. When she got ill she started getting really finicky in her old age. I was buying pretty much all canned cat foods and not Friskies or any other normal grocery store.

Before that, one of our cats got really ill and had to go to the emergency room because she couldn't breathe. That cost several hundred dollars to save her, but then we found she had a tumor that would kill her so we had her put down.

[joshcryer]

20. That was nice of you.

To drag out a dogs life like that. Real kind.

[Codeine]

146. When a dog gets cancer you euthanize him.

It's unkind to draw that suffering out.

[dkf]

36. Just hope they don't become diabetic.

Just establishing a curve costs over $100 a visit. And then you do it once a week til they can figure out the optimal insulin. That doesn't count the syringes nor the insulin.

Or how's about having surgical pins put in to save the stray cat that just got hit by a car? $2300 over ten years ago but it was worth it. That cat lived a long life with those pins.

[Hannah Bell]

43. that's the difference between the upper middle class & the rest.

[HEyHEY]

13. Well, they can move out of the 3,000 a month house, nix the 4,000 vacation...etc

[leveymg]

17. Move where? The average house is $400,000 near DC.

And, you don't get a lot of house for that.

[HEyHEY]

22. Oh well... if families can live in that area on 30,000 a year, surely this one can on 250,000

[HEyHEY]

27. Also, my sister has a 400,000 home and her family of four makes 65,000 a year

And they seem to do fine.

[joshcryer]

28. That's a grossly exaggerated number, because the median rent is $1k, and median income is $60k.

You have a couple of thousand million dollar homes and they'll really screw up the data. Trulia has the average house price (for their listing) at $700k. Just goes to show you.

I found several dozen houses on there under $200k. Shall I link them for you or can you stop spreading this BS?

[dkf]

77. The average home in Hawaii is $560,000 last time I checked.

You will never find a house here at $200,000 unless it is ready to tear down. That won't even buy a one bedroom condo in town.

[joshcryer]

92. I wasn't talking to you.

[snooper2]

135. Olive Ave Wahiawa, HI 96786 $155,000

2 Bed 1 Bath 584 Sq .07 Acres

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Olive-Ave_Wahiawa_HI_96786_M70255-22192


$360,000
988 Hanau St Wahiawa, HI 96786
2 Bed 1 Bath7 29 Sq Ft 0.11 Acres




$269,900
92-225 Awaawahea Way Kapolei, HI 96707
3 Bed 1.5 Bath 1,776 Sq Ft 0.09 Acres
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/92-225-Awaawahea-Way_Kapolei_HI_96707_M84245-04935



239 Properties Found in Honolulu HI Between $100,000 - $200,000
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Honolulu_HI/price-100000-200000
All condos of course

[dkf]

144. The assessed value on house #1 is $289,000

That $185,000 is the short sale price meaning the seller is willing to take that but that bank may not be and the bank gets the final say. The first short sale showing I went to the realtor explained that they had numerous offers at the price listed and even above that but the bank refused to sell at those prices. The realtor was showing the house partly to get the names of people who might be looking for a realtor because she didn't have much hope of an actual sale.

That had me walking out shaking my head thinking It was basically a scam.

But doesn't that make you laugh? $289,000 for a three bedroom with 701 square feet of living area? That is ridiculous. And Wahiawa is a thirty minute drive to town in good times, but two hours in normal work day traffic. I think I read Honolulu has the worst traffic in the US.

[snooper2]

149. What about the third one for 269K with 1700 sq ft?

that seems like a good deal

[dkf]

158. There's no MLS on it and it's not showing up on my active list on the site I normally use.

But if you look at the average house price for that area it is $541,000. This one seems an anomaly.

I'll check it out later though. That actually looks interesting.

[LiberalLoner]

106. Yes, you can find those homes. Mostly in high-crime areas you would not really want to live in.

[LiberalLoner]

107. Very true. Ours was that much. I am grateful our housing allowance allowed us to

get the home. We are very fortunate. When we lived here before, we had to live in an apartment and experienced crime/break-ins. Not fun.

I know I am very lucky to be living in a home (way out past Dale City, but it's a house!) and I'm not saying "poor me" at all - I know at this age (50) and with my husband having a PhD, we are one of the very very lucky ones.

I guess the point is, what is going on with our nation when only the top 5 percent or less can live what we traditionally think of as a nice middle-class lifestyle?

Sure, of course you can get by on less - people live in tents after all and "get by" sort of - but what I wonder is, why don't the majority of us have a life like the one portrayed by the story? If that is "middle class" then why don't most of us live like that?

I've lived in Europe, many years ago. People there (in the Netherlands at least) DO seem to live what looks like a nice middle-class lifestyle. I mean MOST of them, not just the upper 5 percent.

So.....

I guess what I see from this article is that the nice middle-class lifestyle is going bye-bye for pretty much all of us. We will be nothing but serfs and billionaires in another decade or two I think.

[Dappleganger]

198. Then you either rent or move to a more liveable area.

[Nye Bevan]

114. Well they could, if they actually existed. But they don't, so they can't.

This is a fictitious family.

[LiberalLoner]

101. Yup, living expenses here in NoVa are outrageous. Don't like paying that much but

this is where my husband is stationed, so we cope. Makes me sick how much everything costs, though. Even the groceries cost more around here :(

[HEyHEY]

12. Where can I donate?

[blueamy66]

21. Wah

My heart bleeds purple piss for these people.

Why have kids if you cannot afford them? I do not have kids for just this reason.

Buy a house within your means.

I could go on and on.

[democracy1st]

26. you would have great kids, Merry Christmas !

[truedelphi]

51. I am surprised that nowhere in their tale of woe do they mention

The damn condo fees on their second home.

Or the country club membership fees - and on 250K, they are probably not eligible for a first tier country club.

[Dreamer Tatum]

67. Or the rental on the spaceship they use for trip to Saturn.

(the people in the story are FICTIONAL).

[Hannah Bell]

68. couples who make $250K a year aren't fictional, though. and this is the ft's best

attempt at a budget that shows the plebes how rough those folks have it.

pardon the plebes for laughing.

ps: the text clearly says it's a hypothetical couple. you seem not to grasp the point.

[Dreamer Tatum]

70. I suggest we find the author of the article and give them a STRONG talking-to.

How DARE they.

[truedelphi]

248. Why do you hate America? n/t

[Hannah Bell]

46. as for the $5000 a year in parking, i see huntington ny (long island) has transit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Area_Rapid_Transit

man, one thing the upper-middle in "expensive" areas doesn't pay extra for is bus service: TEN CENTS FOR A TRANSFER?

Them's 1980s prices.

Their system connects with several others. I bet connects with rail service to NYC somewhere.

or maybe this couple could carpool with someone?

[dkf]

85. My parking for one car is more than $2,500 / year.

I would consider the bus but I sometimes leave at 9 or 10 at night and just walking to the car feels unsafe much less sitting at the bus stop. There aren't many people out at that time of night.

[justiceischeap]

108. I pay $40 a week for public transport on the DC Metro

That's $120 a month and I walk to the Metro station.

I am one of those people who live in the DC metro area and make away less than 3 figures and manage to live a decent life without living in a high crime area.

[Jamastiene]

49. The poor dears...

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

62. glad you erased the "wide stance" comment. this has nothing to do with legislators in bathrooms.

but you mean what the financial times is trying to sell, don't you?

which is the idea that a couple making $253K a year is "poor" because their total taxes = 29.9% of their income.

my total tax bill is about 25% of my income & i make much, much less than this couple. & i'm not bitching about it. and i would count it as a blessing to be able to put 15K a year into a 401K, let alone 33K.

there have been plenty of posts at DU about some low-income woman having the *gall* to buy a fancy birthday cake for her kids with food stamps or something like that. the media floods us with such stories.

turnabout = fair play.

[Lucian]

59. ...

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

That sums up my feelings on this. They shouldn't bitch until they make $12,000/yr, like we Walmart employees do.

[pacalo]

60. The saddest part is that they still owe money on an education they apparently got nothing

out of. This hypothetical couple can't figure out what they need to cut out?

And "The Fiscal Times" editorial staff saw fit to run this as a solid article? Fail.

[Hannah Bell]

61. and title it "poor on $250K". and apparently believe their lead, as the tone is sympathetic through

out.

media = completely out of touch.

[pacalo]

63. +1.

[Dreamer Tatum]

64. The most pathetic part is...YOU PEOPLE. Did you miss the word 'hypothetical?'

Do you guys REALLY get that lathered up about people who don't exist?

Jesus. Get a life.

[Hannah Bell]

65. lol. you're johnny on the spot on threads about welfare moms buying steak with food stamps though.

important stuff, there.

interesting to me the sympathetic tenor of this article v. the hectoring tone adopted in the ubiquitous stories about the financially-strapped cubicle rat who doesn't brown-bag it, the black couple who bought "too much house" & got foreclosed on, low-income people who buy cigarettes or lottery tickets, the food stamp recipient who dares to buy some luxury item "above her station," etc.

interesting to me also that despite trying their best to illustrate the straightened finances of the bottom of the top 3%, a budget that allots $40,000 to various kinds of savings & $600 a month to "gifts & entertainment" (& adds even more for cable tv & internet on top of that) is the best they can do.

[Dreamer Tatum]

66. I suggest we FIND that hypothetical motherfucker and TAX his ass 100%.

Just THINK of the revenue!

:eyes:

[Mimosa]

72. Hannah, the 'advice' about clipping coupons & crap like that always cracks me up

For years, I used to clip coupons like a maniac when I could afford a newspaper subscription. Now a newspaper subscription is sort of dumb and wasteful. The ATL journal Constitution has always been a BAD paper anyway for local news and it's not environmentally responsible to but bunches of newspaper (ATL doesn't have a recycling program for such) when one can get the news online.

I must go back to the article and check how much this financially strapped family in their big fancy schmancy house contributes to good causes or charities. I bet I beat them on with less than a quarter of their income.

Dreamer tatum, your snark about taxing anybody -hypothetical in this case- 100% is just dumb.

There are plenty of yuppie types who live very much like the couple described in the article. I've known a few. These are people whose 'needs' are largely status related. A lot of in the Beltway Washington types are the same. They are clueless about how people making under $90,000 and especially under $50,000 live. And they sure as hell don't want to find out.

[Hannah Bell]

75. no, the budget doesn't include charitable contributions. or trips to the hairdresser or any of that

frippery. It's a tight, no-nonsense budget.

i supposed they could take it out of the $600 a month for entertainment & gifts or the $40,000 they put into various kinds of savings, though.

yeah, the coupon thing -- since coupons are mainly for name brands or prepared foods or fast foods, i rarely found them useful -- because i rarely bought that stuff -- house brands & bulk foods being cheaper. and i hate to drive all over town hunting down "bargains" -- seems like the running around doesn't make up for the "savings".

[MicaelS]

78. You nailed it...

These are people whose 'needs' are largely status related.

After all they wouldn't want their "friends" to see them as middle class or god-forbid, poor, would they? :sarcasm:

[katnapped]

100. Yes, what would the neighbors think?

God forbid! :sarcasm:

[dkf]

88. Where is this budget for the $40,000?

Must have missed it.

Can a family of that income afford an iPhone? It's become a necessity to me but dang it adds up.

[DrDan]

86. thank goodness the R's are around to help them out with tax breaks

and capital gains protection

[Hippo_Tron]

90. Additionally, the author has no understanding of how progressive taxation works

If Obama and the Democrats' plan to raise taxes on income over $250k, the Jones' would not have had their taxes raised. In fact, they would have gotten a tax cut under Obama.

So lets say they make another $10k next year. Currently that additional $10k would be taxed at 35% or $3500. Under Obama's plan they would pay 39.6% on that $10k which amounts to 3960. So yes Obama would be raising their taxes a whopping $460. Lets say they make an additional $50,000. Obama would be raising their taxes an additional $2300. Of course they would have $30,200 left over if they made another $50k. They could still take three family vacations and increase their 401k contribution by 2/3rds.

Furthermore, there aren't a whole lot of jobs where a family can make $250k a year in Twin Falls, Idaho. High paying jobs are generally going to be concentrated in affluent areas. Yes there are going to be a lucky few people who are in a lower tax bracket than you who have a higher standard of living than you because they were lucky enough to find a really great paying job in Twin Falls, Idaho. The fact that those lucky few get a better deal isn't really a good basis for a tax system, though.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

156. Yep. I don't even know why they are using THESE figures.

These people aren't anywhere close to the 250 mark after all their deductions and write-offs. But the author knows this. He/she just can't seem to bring himself to write "Down and out on $310,000 or $325,000 so he figures he can be cynical enough to say $250k and his idiot readers won't catch it.

[old mark]

95. I am amazed I survived for so long on so much less! Those poor people...

:eyes:


mark

[Nye Bevan]

113. Bear in mind that these people don't actually exist. (nt)

[old mark]

120. If you read about some Hollywood divorce settlements,etc, they are

probably more real than you think...


mark

[Nye Bevan]

122. So someone should start a thread about a real example, instead of posting fiction (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

201. tell the financial times.

[Creative]

96. I will never understand the hatred some have for those who work hard and as a result,

are successful.

[RegieRocker]

99. No one resents that. They just want them to pay their

fair share of taxes (same percentage no loop holes) as they do. What people resent though is the status quo (good ol boys) keeping them down. Arse kissers. People that don't pay others a fair wage. A trash truck driver works hard so does a ditch digger. They don't make $250,000 a year. I know people that make $250,000 a year and they don't work as hard as them. So maybe just maybe they resent them not working as hard as them and making more. Did you ever think of that?

[Creative]

111. Believe it or not, there is a different level of expertise required to do some jobs than others.

A trash truck driver cannot do a dentist's job. On the other hand, anyone can drive a trash truck.

[Hugin]

123. Have you ever driven a trash truck?

How are you qualified to judge the amount of knowledge and expertise necessary for the job?

[Creative]

134. Can't say I have, but I'm 100% certain that I could.

Because I have the ability to think objectively.

[Hugin]

178. I take it you're up on all of the hazardous waste regulations.

It takes more than driving, y'know.

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. Anyone?

No. 80% of the people lack the physical fitness required to collect the trash. Including most dentists. Nor would they choose to expose themselves to the hazardous materials which shorten their lives. Nor would they get up at 4am for the privilege.

Spare us the classist bullshit.

[mainer]

162. Can you fill a cavity?

the more training and education a job takes, and the fewer people there are who can perform your job, the more money you generally make.

It's not classist. It's just the way modern society works.

[lumberjack_jeff]

172. *snerk*

Umm... I get no complaints. :D

[slutticus]

218. I can imagine it.

I wake up tomorrow, and garbage truck drivers are being offered 250k per year. I proceed to quit my job (I have an advanced degree, 10 years of school beyond HS, and don't even make near that....) and apply to my local WM branch. But suddenly, my neighbor (the sneaky bastard) comes in there and says he'll do it for 100k! So I says fine, "I'll do it for 75k!". But then right after that, some other guy comes in and says he'll do the job for 50k? WTF??? Really, 50K? So at that point, I beg for my old job back. I'm not sure what the salary got down to in the end, but based on the line I saw into the place it was probably a pretty brutal bidding process.

Now, try that same analogy with an ER surgeon or something like that (probably around a 250k salary if not more...)....here we go:

I wake up tomorrow, and ER surgeons are being offered 250k per year. I proceed to quit my job (I have an advanced degree, 10 years of school beyond HS, and don't even make near that....) and apply to my local hospital. But suddenly, my neighbor (the sneaky bastard) comes in there and says he'll do it for 100k! So I says fine, "I'll do it for 75k!". But then right after that, some other guy comes in and says he'll do the job for 50k? WTF??? Really, 50K? So at that point, the hospital looks at all of us and says, "show me your medical degree, your 4 year residency as well as your 5 year internship". We all look at each other and calmly walk out the door.

[lumberjack_jeff]

222. If the American Garbagehaulers Association

Strictly controlled how many garbagehaulers were produced by the qualified garbagehaulers schools, and lobbied congress to make a federal law against handling garbage without a license, you'd see garbage truck drivers making $250k a year... and whining for more.

Doctors don't make big salaries because their skills are unique. They make big salaries because they have an omnipotent union.

[blueamy66]

256. +1

awesome post

[ProudDad]

167. The 'elitist' speaks...

:puke:

You haven't said anything worth reading yet...

Off to pavulon-land with you!

Bye-bye :hi:

[slutticus]

214. It's not only about hard work

It's also about education level and responsibility.

When a garbage truck driver goes home, he goes home. Someone making a 250k salary probably has their blackberry going off every ten minutes. You're never really off the clock.

Do you really believe a garbage truck driver should get the same salary as the POTUS? A fair living wage, of course....but 250k, come on....

[Hugin]

121. Can you say they work harder than me?

I think I deserve $250,000 a year.

[Creative]

133. I don't know you--how could I say that?

If you think you deserve 250k, you should make that your goal and proceed to achieve it.

[Dappleganger]

200. And I'll never understand the whining of those who have money and yet it never seems to be enough.

BTW, the OP's "family" is fictitious, LOL.

[stray cat]

97. 30,000 and poor is a joke to many - idea of wealth depends on a persons perspective

[Hannah Bell]

213. 97% of the us population makes less than $250K. that's a fact regardless of perspective.

[RegieRocker]

98. Aww poor little babies!

Oh and one more thing tell them they should have refinanced to 5% that would drop their mortgage to $2100.00 saving them $900.00 a month more than some people make clear after taxes. Hah!

[Jim__]

109. Let's cutoff unemployment benfits so we can ease the tax burden on these poor people.

I was listening to RW radio on my drive in to work this morning. They were complaining about all the people who are choosing unemployment so they can stay home and play video games. :eyes:

[Nye Bevan]

112. So we are supposed to get outraged about this non-existent, imaginary, hypothetical family?

I can see why they are hypothetical. Who in the suburbs pays $5000 a year to park their cars? Any DU dog-lovers spend $130 per month on their dog? I love my dog and I barely spend a quarter of that. And who would spend $520 per month eating out if they were concerned about their cashflow?

Perhaps when this round of outrage has been exhausted I'll start a thread about an imaginary couple earning $1 million per year but who blow it on caviar, Cuban cigars, and maintaining their 60 foot yacht. And I'll pretend that they spend $1500 per month on their dog! And another $1000 per month on their cat! So we can all vent *even more* outrage! Hey, this is fun!

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. No, we're supposed to be outraged over the very real article which created this straw man

to beat the rest of us over the head for our misplaced hatred of the rich.

[Dappleganger]

202. Doggie day care costs $$ here.

Or they can belong to the dog park and pay at least half that amount. I know numerous people who do that wit their dogs, lol.

[Hugin]

119. Wow... After a year with that income and my current lifestyle I'd have almost...

$250,000 left.

[Nye Bevan]

124. You are real. That family is hypothetical (nt).

[here_is_to_hope]

128. I know, what they spend on daycare a month...

Is our monthly income!
But we are happy and comfortable, hell we even have a kid and pets!

[Nye Bevan]

136. Well, actually, they *don't* spend that on daycare, as they are fictitious (nt)

[Warren Stupidity]

131. Well no you wouldn't.

To start with taxes tax a major chunk, around 40% total, so start with 150,000. In order to earn 250,000/yr you have to live somewhere where there are jobs that pay 250,000/yr, and that means the high rent urban areas. Add at least another 50,000/yr for housing expenses. Now you are down to 100,000. Still a very healthy chunk of change. If you have one kid in a private university you will be paying full freight on that tuition and that will take half of your 100,000. I agree that you have 50,000 in discretionary income and therefore quite a comfortable life.

What you aren't is rich.

[Hugin]

157. I distinctly said, "my current life style". n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

220. Fine then you start with 150K. nt.

[sadbear]

125. Let the kids pay their for their college

It builds character, and makes them appreciate it more, too. That frees up a few K's per year. Maybe dad can get that boat now and have enough left over for the docking fees.

[MilesColtrane]

160. Or, make them go to a state university.

The quality of education in most is on par with private universities.

Once again, it's just a status issue.

[hfojvt]

209. but that becomes a job issue too

it's harder to get that $120,000 a year job with a degree from a mere state school, unless the degree is an MBA.

[FLPanhandle]

126. We are that family of four(or close to it)...feel free to hate on us.

Those of you complaining about the hypothetical family can now have a real target.

The Pet budget, entertainment budget, vacation budget (sometimes even more), eating out budget, college education budget, and insurance budget are about right for us.

Slight differences are only I work, so no child care expenses.
Our taxes in Florida are much lower.
No parking costs.

Here's the thing. I don't mind paying more taxes! I have friends who make much more than I do and they mostly don't mind either.

[WilliamPitt]

127. There's a lot of "suck" in this thread.

A fair sample of "awful," too.

Be nice.

[GinaMaria]

132. they don't just have 4k saved

they have some equity in their home
8k saved per year for college for the kids
33k saved in 401K

give me a break. They could save more if
they used public transportation instead of driving and parking
Taking a cheaper vacation or a staycation
Eating out less
How much are they dropping at Starbucks every month?
There are lots of ways they could trim their budget.

People live their money. No matter how much they make.

[Nye Bevan]

137. Why all this advice for a *hypothetical* *fictional* family? (nt)

[Gormy Cuss]

169. Because the *hypothetical* family was designed to elicit sympathy

and anyone with a little numbers sense can see that the finances were rigged to make it seem like 250K families are struggling just like 30K families, hypothetically speaking of course.

[Nye Bevan]

176. But it's a *stupid* hypothetical example.

What suburban family spends $5000 per year for parking?

[Gormy Cuss]

179. I agree that it's a stupid example, but not because of the parking estimate.

It assumes two working adults. If one drives to Manhattan for work that parking fee wouldn't be out of range for monthly parking fees in midtown and downtown. I know commuters who drive from LI and pay $300-$400/month for parking ($3600-$4800 per year.)


eta: of course, that doesn't mean they are typical surburbanites.

[Nye Bevan]

181. I know many people who live in Long Island and commute to Manhattan

but none of them drive in. Why doesn't the hypothetical family take commuter rail like real people?

[Hannah Bell]

196. because the ft was desperately trying to spend all their income to show

families making $250K could hardly make it.

which is my point.

[Gormy Cuss]

238. Probably because not all of the cities included have viable mass transit.

FWIW, the monthly fare on LIRR to Penn Sta from Huntington is $274, for $3288/year, and that's for one commuter. Two commuters and it would exceed the 5K parking estimate and allow plenty of room for mileage costs.

The bigger flaws in the estimate are including retirement, vacation, and college planning as if they're fixed costs rather than (smart) options for people with plenty of disposable income.

[devilgrrl]

142. Guess these hypothetical people will just have to learn to live within their hypothetical means

:popcorn:

[slackmaster]

145. Poor choices abound in that hypothetical scenario

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. They're welcome to spend their after-tax dollars as they see fit.

A hypothesized inability bordering on brain damage to do it prudently isn't an argument to lower their taxes.

I will ask though, why is an income tax on this rich family so much a better idea than an income tax on Washington State's rich?

[uncommon]

152. Hahahahahahaha. That's what is so great about these stories. Come back and tell me you are having

a hard time when you can't swing $500/mo in rent, $200 in utilities, and $200 for all auto expenses.

What a joke.

"Gosh, I have so little money left after putting away $33K for retirement, paying my housekeeper, going to Disney World, and buying $250 of new clothes every month - I'm practically homeless!"

[Renew Deal]

153. Long Island is WAY overpriced.

Home values are unreasonable. Property taxes as insane. Start at $1,000 a month for a house and go from there. There's things they can do to save money, but both parents work. I can understand why they need help cleaning. Maximizing their 401K and saving for their kids college are good investments in their future.

I live on LI, so I understand where they're coming from.

[kentuck]

164. They should be Republicans..

and we should tax the shit out of them to help pay for their good lives.

[ProudDad]

165. The REAL problem isn't the USAmerican "middle class" dilema...

The real problem is that these are symptoms of the fact that humans have overshot the carrying capacity of the Earth...

And the "benefits" of that rape are accrued by the very few to the detriment of the rest...


Austerity is the new corporate/political buzzword...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=60956&mesg_id=61257

[IMATB]

168. Have any of you seen that WE channel show

Downsized ?

You wanna get mad, watch a real family. It will make you not only mad but sick to watch the way they live.

One thing, you WILL hate the mother.

[Stevenmarc]

170. All this caterwauling about a hypothetical family, who cares, vet the source

Peter George Peterson is the founder of Fiscal Times and as much as they say they are non-partisan, they aren't, this is the guy pushing for the use of Social Security funds to cover the US deficit.

[Hannah Bell]

199. yep.

[Hannah Bell]

272. it just clicked -- you mean *the* PETE PETERSON.

i didn't realize he founded the ft.

wish i'd know that when i wrote the op.

makes the article even more telling.

[taught_me_patience]

173. This is completely ignorant of real world costs and budgeting

Here is a more realistic example of a couple with two kids 3&5 living in a 4bd home in a good school district in LA, but not a really nice area such as Santa Monica or Manhattan Beach. In those areas, the mortgage would be $1.5MM.

Often, with big salaries, comes big expenses.

Gross $250,000

Pre-tax savings $30,000
AGI $220,000
Tax 22% Federal & 8% State $66,000
After Tax Income $154,000

One time/year expenses
Car insurance $2,000
Clothing $1,500
Homeowners Insurance $900
Vacations $4,000

Monthly Income after 1 time expenses $12,133

Mortgage @899,000 $4,826
Property Taxes $885
Maintenance @1% $708
Student Loans (100k @ 80K) $950
Health Insurance $250
Car Loans (2 cars Ford Fusion @20k and Camry @ 24k) $810
Food $1,500
Day Care 1 Kid $1,000
Entertainment/cable/phone $200
Savings for college education $500


Remaining $503

[OhioChick]

174. Poor things n/t

[eppur_se_muova]

177. Better title: Communities where you can't afford to live on $250K

The article is only "discovering" that some communities are out of bounds for all but the wealthy. Not really news.

[booley]

180. Gawds how awful for them!

Making only a fraction of that {40,000 gross and most of that goes into my business), living pay check to pay check and being unable to save anything much less put money into a 401k or "buy a home in an area appropriate to my income class", I totally am unable to understand their troubles with having to get by on only 5 times my income.

Maybe if these fold would let me get 250,000 a year I could understand where they are coming from.

[Nye Bevan]

183. Do you realize that this family does not, in fact, exist?

As in, it's a hypothetical situation?

[hfojvt]

210. why do some people think they are making a profound point

when they keep saying that?

They aren't.

You aren't.

[Nye Bevan]

215. Because the poster said that he is "unable to understand their troubles".

Why waste time trying to "understand the troubles" of every *fictional* family that people come up with? You could dream up thousands of fictional scenarios, but what's the point of "trying to understand the troubles" of people who don't exist?

[hfojvt]

225. Perhaps because stories and parables are used all the time

to make a point. So the person was hypothetical? In that way they were representing MANY people who make between $150,000 and $300,000 who live in those metro areas. So the person does not actually exist, the people represented by that supposedly typical person DO exist and the original story was meant to conjure up sympathy for those poor oppressed rich people just trying to make it in America.

The issues are real and could perhaps be discussed without some people continually making the irrelevant existential and semantic non-point that "this person does not really exist".

At least it could be discussed in some ideal world which also does not really exist, but could, if people would behave better.

[booley]

251. I know we have a sarcasm smiley

but do I seriously have to use it EVERY TIME, even when it's glaringly obvious?

In any case, hypothetical or not, if the point was the those making 250k are somehow struggling, I am not sure I am all they sympathetic.

[Yavin4]

185. FYI, An Annual Income of $250,000 Is Indeed A Lot of Money for NYC

The overwhelming majority of the population of NYC makes far, far less then $250,000 a year, and we survive.

Contrary to popular opinion, we're not all bankers.

[pitohui]

190. holy cow, they;re just idiots and still have too much money

$10K a year to have a maid clean your house? sheesh, there's a fortune saved right there by teaching the kids to chip in and do their own chores

what's more useless than an adult who can't do their own chores and teaches their kids the same???

$1600 a month for baby sitting and camp for the brats? $1600 A MONTH????

and there's still $4K left for a separate "family" vacation that doesn't include the camping costs?

$5K a year to park their car? what's wrong w. parking it in the driveway like the rest of us?

sheesh, these fools are truly struggling to spend all of their money, it's ridiculous

$600 A MONTH on gifts and entertainment????? wait, $7200 a year on gifts/entertainment? how much of that "entertainment" is going straight up their nose?

where's all that money going, except to ruin the character of their spoiled brats?

[blueamy66]

257. But one HAS to have brats.

It's an American thing, I guess.

Blows my mind...

[Bjorn Against]

203. The article says that this family spends $2,679 a year on the gas tax, what the hell do they drive?

I could see a typical family of four spending about that much or a more on gas, but if they are spending that much on just the gas tax alone then they must be using a tank as the family vehicle. The gas tax in New York is 44.6 cents per gallon, that means that in order to spend $2,679 on the gas tax in a year the family would have to burn through more than 115 gallons of gas every single week.

Either this family wastes way too much fuel, or the authors of this article were so determined to make it look like the tax burden on the rich was too high that they completely pulled a number out of their ass and pretended it was realistic.

[right2bfree]

235. Probably Two SUV's at least. nt

[WinkyDink]

207. "$10,000 a year for "maintenance & cleaning" of their home" = DEMENTED.

[county worker]

211. This story isn't really told correctly.

Basically these folks save a lot of money and spend a lot of money so they have nothing left. That isn't a problem if you can put 30K into a 401K every year.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

212. Why is it that...

1) politicians really want the lower middle class and poor to sacrifice?

2) the disconnect between politics and household economics is completely lost on these people?


$65,000 dollars in student loan debt? This is the new indentured servitude that the idiots these idiots voted for have created. I mean, in liue of raising your taxes, you and your children became indentured servants to banks? Yep, the people who won't raise your taxes are sticking it to you in soooo many ways that you'd only wished they had just raised your taxes.

[Courtesy Flush]

216. Why doesn't that $33,000 they put in savings count?

They say they only have $4,963, but look at all they set aside. They really have $37,963 left over.

My wife and I have about half their income, and put nearly half ours in the bank every year. Learn to budget!

[Vinca]

219. Now that's my kind of poverty.

I would love to have the luxury to pay a dime for the "maintenance and cleaning" of my home. Not to mention the luxury of saving any money for any thing.

[mainer]

221. wait -- don't we WANT them to spend it all?

here I've been hearing complaints that the rich don't spend enough to stimulate the economy and instead save it all. Now we have an example of a family that spends, spends, spends (albeit fictionally) and you criticize them for doing what you want them to do in the first place?

So, what should they do? Spend lots and pay housekeepers, dog groomers, retailers, airlines, etc. etc?

Or keep their money in the bank where it doesn't do anything more than make them richer?

What are we asking of them? (I mean, besides to pay more in taxes)?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

224. I'll pick at this low hanging fruit...

How 'bout, stop your effing whining and asking those less fortunate to do all the sacrificing.

Besides, things are exactly the way they are supposed to be in that the idiots they voted for wouldn't have it any other way: in lieu of raising taxes, we will invent so many ways to gauge you that you wish your taxes had been raised.

That's what I got.

[mainer]

274. Who's whining? Just asking: what DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO?

spend it or save it?

This is, of course, a fictional family.

Everyone is ragging on this nonexistent family for their choices. Some say they're idiots for spending it. Others say they're selfish bastards for saving so much and not helping to stimulate the economy.

Is there anything this fictional family could do that would meet anyone's approval here?

[tomm2thumbs]

223. where was their Top Ramen soup bill? I missed that one

[right2bfree]

237. You'd would have to let them know what Top Ramen is first. nt

[Rex]

226. Anyone that makes 250k a year or more knows nothing about

real survival. They wouldn't last three weeks in my shoes. Pathetic.

[WillowTree]

249. Riiiiiiight. Because if they make $250K/year, it stands to reason that they ALWAYS did,

No chance they ever lived for years in your shoes before they got to the $200,000 bracket.

How very narrow some people's view of the world is.

[Rex]

255. No of course not, what a stupid thing to say.

I can't believe the stupidity over what is 'middle class' on this board. Sad, but nice try anyway.

[newtothegame]

228. Wow. Merry Christmas from DU I guess. Don't bring your money problems here.

Get a job u bums!!

[Hannah Bell]

247. the hypothetical people in the op have jobs. jobs that pay $250K a year, putting them in the

top 3% of families in the nation.

yet, after putting away $40,000 in savings (more than most families clear after taxes), the financial times wants us to feel sorry for them because they're "poor".

boo-hoo.

no one who can save $40K a year & spend $600 a month on gifts & entertainment has "money worries".

[newtothegame]

270. You're right. Let's ban pensions too. Let's all be slaves. nt

[high density]

231. Uhh, under this their savings rate is over 16%

That is pretty good by most standards I know. That budget includes $600/mo in misc entertainment and $520/mo(!!) dining out. ($13k/yr) Overall it sounds like they're doing great.

[maryf]

232. Gosh, and I've been feeling lucky!

at a quarter the income...tax the rich... period.

[right2bfree]

233. Boo-Hoo!!! nt

[devils chaplain]

240. Living above one's means and then complaining about being broke...

"They also have a car loan on one of two cars, and a mortgage for 80 percent of the value of a typical home in their communities..."

If they're not living on "easy street", they're living in a community above their means. Are we supposed to have some sympathy for them because they chose a McMansion that stretched their budget a little more than a slightly smaller McMansion would have?

"- paying the $3000/mo mortgage on their house in a neighborhood appropriate for their income class"

Again, if they are having any trouble with life on $250k a year, they're living in a neighborhood INappropriate for their income class.

[Lorien]

243. Exactly. The very idea that a family MUST live in a community that is

appropriate for their income class" is absurd. if their expenses are so absurdly high then they're in the wrong home and wrong neighborhood. I have this argument with a friend all the time. She still lives in the same neighborhood that she did when she made $360k a year, but now her income is 24k a year for disability. It's time to sell her posh home and move to something she can afford, but she's unwilling to accept the reality of her situation because she doesn't want to appear less successful to her friends.

[devils chaplain]

244. Fueled by easy credit...

...so many are trying to keep up with (or stay one step ahead of) the Jones' overspending.

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

- Winston Micawber in David Copperfield by Charles Dickens

[StarsInHerHair]

253. oh please what bullshit!

nt

[quaker bill]

264. I would love to try

to get by on $250K a year. I am pretty sure I could do it.

[Autumn]

265. Wow, I wish I was

that fucking poor.

[B Calm]

268. Wow. . . Talk about now being connected to the rest of the world of the working class!