My cousins in Frankfurt, Germany, stated they would never live here,

[ej510]

because our country is cruel to its citizens. My older cousin is from Oakland, CA and was shipped to Frankfurt in 1983 by the military. He hasn't been back since. He was marred to a German woman and has two kids. One in college the other in high school. The German government is paying for my cousin's college education, and her housing.

[CountAllVotes]

1. well ...

I'd never live in Germany. Take that! ;)

[WinkyDink]

70. If you ever visited, you might change your tune.

[CountAllVotes]

109. I have been to Germany

It was in the late 1980s and it was clean I'll have to admit.

However, when we drove by Dachau a silence fell upon the bus I was on.

I heard a fellow traveler say, "Not even a bird will land there." :puke:

I've never gone back and never had a desire to go back.

[slackmaster]

2. That's like having Keith Richards tell you that you need to get your life together

:argh:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

4. !

:rofl:

[ej510]

6. At least they take care of their people. My country is profit over people.

[CreekDog]

14. mine too

oh wait, same country. damn.

:(

[slackmaster]

89. Where do I apply to get a share of the farmland they seized from my family in the 19th century?

I want my reparations.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

13. an AMERICAN military man said this --not a German

but if you insist on comparing a former soldier with a fried-out musician, you deserve whatever you get called for doing so.

:wtf:

[Dappleganger]

22. Really?

Because Germany really has their shit together when it comes to taking care of their people.

[slackmaster]

79. My family bailed out of Germany three generations ago because of religious persecution

My paternal grandfather grew up in a house where only German was permitted to be spoken. His second language was Hopi. He didn't learn English until age 13, after he had mastered Italian.

My mom and grandmother visited there in the early '90s. They said the reasons our ancestors left are still valid. The culture has an undercurrent of arrogance and xenophobia.

There are good things about modern Germany to be sure. I have friends who moved there for business, and they're happy. One of my best college buddies is a nephew of General George Patton, and he's treated as some kind of hero there. But it's not the paradise portrayed by some of us.

The insensitivity of DUers to people who take contrary positions to the conventional PC/"progressive" view is the stuff of legend. Some of you make no effort whatsoever to understand WHY a person might feel differently about something. God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason. You should use them in proportion.

[jtuck004]

83. Good thing they chose a country to move to where Native people

weren't beaten and jailed for trying to speak their own language or practicing their own religion, a country that refuses to hold hearings about National Security based solely on someone's religion.

Oh, wait...

[slackmaster]

88. I can't begin to explain the irony of your statement without revealing too much about my identity

:nuke:

[Mass]

84. Arrogance and xenophobia. Coming from the US, this is amusing.

[slackmaster]

96. Where do you think American arrogance and xenophobia came from, Mass?

Are you aware that about 60% of the European ancestors of European-Americans were German?

Or that 100% of the ancestors of European-Americans came from Europe?

[Dappleganger]

97. So Germany has remained absolutely the same in the past three generations

that your family left.

And your lack of understanding of the forum rules is duly noted. This is a progressive forum, not the Huffington Post or Politico.

[pacalo]

105. I love your last paragraph; it speaks for me as well.

:thumbsup:

[Lastactiongyro]

61. Keith Richards Does have his life together in comparison to the USA

[WinkyDink]

71. Bizarre.

[PDJane]

3. I'd happily live in Germany.

It's civilized.

[madmax]

5. Granted I don't know a lot of people who live in Europe

but, the few I do say the same thing.

The only people left who want to come to America are suffering in third-world countries, imo. Not based on any polls or data.

[ej510]

7. My younger cousin is nice she like her father and brother have duet citizenship. In Germany she

won't have to worry about predatory capitalists stealing her pension.

[CreekDog]

17. hell Canadians tell me this

the summer we were trying to get our health care reform passed, I was in Toronto and multiple people asked me why on earth there was controversy over giving people health care here --and that they liked their health care system.

two of them, in fact, were from NYC and New Jersey and had good benefits there (they'd both been professionals). but they liked Toronto more --said Canadians were more civilized.

that's been my experience. :shrug:

[madmax]

47. If it weren't so cold in Canada

I'd move. The Rheumatoid arthritis would kill me up there. Did I mention getting old is a bitch. :P

[ej510]

49. Canada is better to its citizens even with that asshole Prime Minister of theirs Stephen Harper.

[madmax]

50. I would probably like to live in Quebec.

Just seems so quaint and 'old world'. I don't speak a lick of French :(

[ej510]

51. Maybe you can put on a warm suit.

[liam_laddie]

94. We thought the markets in Montreal were fabulous!

Also loved spending time in Toronto and Ottawa. Good vibes there. But the winters and the Harper gummint...sigh. :toast:

[eridani]

72. Psssst! Vancouver! n/t

[madmax]

76. shhh, I'm checkin it out now...

[fascisthunter]

8. Your COusin and Mine as Well... I have Family close to Frankfurt

they are really freaking out and see the parallels between the American right wing and the rise of the Third Reich.

[ej510]

12. It is freightening how similar this era is to Nazi Germany. Propaganda following through the

airwaves. Boogieman (Muslims or Mexicans). A low information electorate. Poverty rising and etc.

[fascisthunter]

58. Using torture.... pre-emptively striking another nation on made up pretenses

using religion(christianity) and nationalism ... attacking unions... imprisoning people without a fair trial(innocent till proven guilty)... wire tapping Americans and political opponents... rigging elections.... curtailing freedom of speech(free speech zones).... creating mobs to intimidate citizens and disrupt peaceful assembly in public... ownership of media.... militarizing their supporters(guns and more guns-protection my ass)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

73. You desperately need to get some perspective.

This kind of laughable scaremongering detracts from attempts to combat the very real things that actually are wrong with America today.

10% unemployment and the prospect of a ban on abortion are not small things, but not are they comparable to the risk of a world war and a holocaust.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adigal]

10. We just had this conversation at dinner

We were saying that the idea that everyone wants to come to America is a lie. Only people in third world countries want to come here - there are no Swiss or Canadians banging on our doors!! They think we are stupid about our politicians, and our money and our rights. I also got a history lesson from my son: corporations were mostly sympathetic to the Nazis before and during WWII, so the citizens had a deep distrust of corporations, and the unions got strong. In our country during WWII, corporations were seen to be heroes, "fighting to save the world."

Hence, the different attitudes toward unions and corporations.

[CreekDog]

21. as a country we just have this glib approach to problems

fixing a problem can't cost anything (unless it's a war, even an unnecessary one --in which case there can be no limits in costs).

as a country we tend to believe simplistic answers (like you can fix problems without spending money).

[ej510]

25. What is sad, is we wrote their constitution.

[tabasco]

29. No, we didn't,

but we have gutted our own.

[ej510]

31. Harry Truman helped write their constitution.

[SoCalDem]

30. Our "official line" stopped evolving after the 50's

OF COURSE "everyone" wanted to come here in the post war years WWI and WWII.. everywhere else was totally F'ed up.

Immigration from poor countries has never stopped being the goal, because the hype we sent out, was very appealing to the downtrodden of the world, BUT, until that first generation was raised, I'd be willing to bet that MANY of those immigrants had some pretty big second-thoughts when they saw those filthy tenements they had to occupy and when their kids were working in sweatshops.

Poor Eastern Europeans spent all their money to GET here, and had no way to pay to even get back, and once they had grandchildren here, they were fully rooted, no matter how poor they were.

[bobbolink]

59. "I'd be willing to bet that MANY of those immigrants had some pretty big second-thoughts when they

saw those filthy tenements they had to occupy "a

I heard a first-hand account that corroborates your assumption.

And this was a couple who came from what was then Czechoslovakia, under Communist rule.

They were appalled,, to put it mildly.

They had originally intended to go to Canada, but ended up in NJ.

Streets of gold....

[joshcryer]

36. Clue: almost everyone lives in the developing world.

[Lorien]

64. My doctor can back you up there

she works for Homeland Security, doing checkups on new immigrants. She said that the few of immigrants has steadily slowed down to a trickle since 2001, and that the only people coming here come from the most violent and poverty stricken Nations.

[pampango]

68. Actually there is a lot of immigration here from Canada and the UK. Most is from the Third World

as you said.



Looks like the highest immigration rates are from Caribbean countries plus Belize, Guatemala and Guyana. The next most likely to immigrate are several Central American countries and Ecuador, the Philippines, a few countries in the Middle East, a couple in southern Europe and one in Africa. The next most likely to immigrate (the middle section) includes Canada and the UK, as well as much of Eastern Europe, much of east Asia (other than China), New Zealand and several countries in South America.

The rest of the world has a low rate of immigration to the US. Oddly, most of Africa falls into the "unlikely to immigrate" group, as does South Asia. Western Europeans are not likely to immigrate (particularly Southern Europeans), as are Brazilians, Argentinians, and Chileans.

I wouldn't look at this as any kind of vindication of American society, but that there is always a number of people who are unhappy and view "the grass as greener on the other side". I think it's more of a reflection of the power of myths about America that are probably still strong in many countries, while their poverty is still very real. Few immigrants know exactly what they are getting into. (The myths are just that - "The streets are paved with gold", " "Everybody is rich", "It's an 'immigrant country' that welcomes new immigrants'.) They will arrive in a place with a different language, culture and legal structure and encounter distain from some citizens who resent their presence.

Most of us would rather live in a society with the progressive policies of a country like Germany (or Canada, Australia, Japan, other European countries). That doesn't mean that there are no people in those countries who are not happy for one reason or another and want to leave. Hence, the rates of immigration from some countries are surprising.

[jtown1123]

80. I really wish I could leave but I think it's really hard to find a job in Europe

[smirkymonkey]

100. I would do anything to live in Europe - I would even marry Mr. Wrong

to get citizenship over there.

[CTyankee]

98. Back in the 80s when we had "boat people" coming to FL from Haiti, I jokingly

said to my right wing brother in law, "funny how you don't see boat people from Sweden, ain't it?" he really got mad at me...

[lovuian]

11. my family in Germany and austria have told me

Capitalism is dead

its why they are so much more advance than we are

[ej510]

16. Germany never got hit like us during the recession.

[southernyankeebelle]

15. I lived in Germany and loved it. Employees are treated well. Children are looked upon like little

jewels in the ruff. The mother gets extra money to stay home to take care of their child after they are born.

[ej510]

20. They have incredible workers benefits.

They get ridiculous vacation time a lot of jobs here give you none.

[CountAllVotes]

33. and ...

They do not tell their dear little ones what happened during WWII and about a man named Hitler. They don't find out about that until they are much older - like in their teens. How do I know this you might ask?

Well, I happen to be 1/4 blood German myself and have very recently had some extensive correspondence with a woman my age that is German living in Germany and she has two precious little ones that don't know yet. When will they find out? Soon I hope.

She wanted to know how we learned about it here in the USA and I told her that a letter was sent home to my parents one day asking for the written permission from each of them for me to learn about something called the Holocaust.

That is one thing that the German people, no matter how righteous they become, will ever be able to shed as a scar on themselves, their country and their fellow citizens and that is Hitler.

The truth hurts oh yeah.

What has America ever done to kill off 6 million+ people in a very short period of time people ask?

Well there is an answer to that too, which my other 1/4 blood speaks of and that is the American Indian.

The lies continue here re: this issue and America will never recover as a country until they face and teach the young people what was done to the Indian people of America. Perhaps it wasn't quite as severe many people say but, sadly, these reservations still exist in silence yet they speak for themselves.

The problem as I see it as that people refuse to face and embrace (yes embrace) their own identities - the good the bad and the very ugly. Luckily, none of my ancestors were Nazis nor Indian killers *whew*. If they were, I be ashamed.

[ej510]

37. My great grandmother on both sides of my family was cherokee Indian.

They had it worse, because they are almost extinct and had their land stolen, but no one knows how many slaves were killed and I bet you it is north of 6million. If we are going to talk mass murder then we need to look at the british in Australia to the aboriginal people. They like the Native Americans have never recovered from the rain of terror or France to the Haitian people or the USA to the Haitian people, even today they are getting by the US government and American corporate farms.

[CountAllVotes]

41. it is indeed shameful

My grandmother was Cherokee/Choctaw I recently found out. I never knew about this being my mother was dumped as a baby and adopted out.

Her foster mother was also Cherokee/Choctaw born in 1895. Said foster grandmother never spoke of her past nor did any of her 5 siblings.

It is horrible what they have done to all of the Indian people here. At least we are beginning to learn about it.

As for other countries and the crimes they have committed against humanity, well it is up to them to recognize it, face it and teach their young about it so it will won't happen again hopefully.

The day a country that had a Hitler out there burning people live on camera to say they are so superior is to me is pretty darn arrogant. Isn't that how the "master race" idea began to begin with?

[Betty Karlson]

67. And the reverse is just "real American exceptionalism"?

It was an American in Germany saying he'd not want to live in the USA, remember? And it turns out, he doesn't think the USA exceptionally good. I could say the same: I'm currenly living in the Netherlands. Far from a perfect place, but better than what the USA is coming to be.

[Betty Karlson]

66. They do tell their little darlings, Countallvotes,

Hitler and co are mandatory stuff which has been inserted in the history curriculums of both primary and secondary education. By the time the little darlings are 16 years old, they KNOW.

Please familiarise yourself with the formal aspects of the Regalschule before making such statements.

[a la izquierda]

75. My friend is from Bavaria...

and spoke very freely about the evils of Hitler. He learned about it as a kid. You being a 1/4 german is somewhat immaterial, I think.

America has a terrible history of contributing to directly, or indirectly, the deaths of millions (Native peoples) and hundreds of thousands (Latin America, Southeast Asia, Middle East). A lot of Americans went right along with all of this. We just didn't put people in concentration camps to kill them.

[14thColony]

87. WTF?

The demonization of Hitler and all things Nazi has been a mandatory part of the national curriculum (Regelschule) since 1949. When I lived in Germany all my German friends were quite well-versed in that era, and had a instinctive revulsion towards anything fascist, all instilled into them at school.

Sorry that your acquaintance slept through most of her primary and secondary education.

[CountAllVotes]

106. that may be true

I've sense time stopped corresponding with said woman. She seems to think that there are no Indian people left in America. She thinks that the Code Talkers that died recently were not Navajos but "old white men". I gave up after that. :think:

[14thColony]

108. Huh. Sounds like she has some real issues to work through! nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. Never mind that anyone who could have actually voted for Hitler

is nearly 100 years old. The people who are old enough to have perpetrated atrocities are about 90 or more.

Nobody under the age of 65 was even alive at the end of World War II.

I would say, judging from the films and documentaries I've seen, that the Germans are much more aware of their past than Americans are of their treatment of the Native Americans. German kids do learn about the Holocaust in school, and according to a former teaching colleague who grew up in East Germany, there was a LOT of info about the Nazi era because the East German Communists portrayed themselves as the most forceful opposition to the Nazis.

[speltwon]

18. I'd FAR FAR rather live here than Germany

so I guess we're both happy!

[Grey]

19. I totally agree with your cousins,

I could never move back to the US. It's not just the cruelty, racism or bigotry. I believe it has more to do with perception or values. A lot of this stuff baffles me.

[ej510]

23. Do you value you yourself and do your fellow county men and women value you to.

[Grey]

44. Why, yes. As a matter of fact, they do.

However, I don't live in Germany. There is more than one country that value their people. I just wish we were a bit more like Germany, how cool would that be?

[ej510]

45. We can start by adopting their constitution.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

32. Germany doesn't have racism or bigotry?

:rofl:

Could a black man be elected Prime Minister there? Didn't think so.

[Grey]

46. Could a Woman be elected President?

How about enacting an equivalent set of social services?

How about mandated vacation time, maternity leave, paid sick days?

I'm not about to trade this for the pigment in someone's skin.

What is it someone on here has as their signature line,

Race is just a pigment of your imagination.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

56. So you're okay with racism as long as you get paid sick days and vacation?

:wtf:

[xphile]

63. You assume quite a bit.

I've always been treated better in Europe than here in the USA where I was born and am a citizen.

[devilgrrl]

24. The Germans think we morphed into the 3rd Reich.

They can't believe what we've turned into.

[SoCalDem]

26. People often become what they fight against

:(

Hate & fear consume you eventually

[ej510]

28. We can change it but it will take a lot of work and may take decades to get it right.

Do we have the endurance is the question.

[ej510]

27. The elite in our country see us as peasants.

[CountAllVotes]

35. well, I can't believe what they've turned into

Have you seen what Ireland is like lately? The Germans have had a huge hand in the ruination of this country, a country which is close to my heart.

To hell with these people and yeah, I'm one of them in part myself.

[CountAllVotes]

38. as the old saying goes

Takes one to know one ...

[anAustralianobserver]

52. Basil Fawlty waits on the Germans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0

[Biker13]

102. Best. Episode. Ever!

Basil: Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. So it's all forgotten now and let's hear no more about it. So that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Herman Goering and four Colditz salads....no, wait a minute...I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the war.

German: Will you stop mentioning the war?

Basil: You started it.

German: We did not start it.

Basil: Yes you did, you invaded Poland...

Biker's Old Lady

[a la izquierda]

77. Ugh...oh come on.

I guess I must hate the English because I'm Irish. FFS.

[sarcasmo]

34. If I were not a full time caregiver I would get out of this shithole in a heartbeat.

[Shagbark Hickory]

39. Germany used to be pretty cruel to its citizens too. nt

[ej510]

40. Very true, but they're great to them now.

[Shagbark Hickory]

42. Maybe someday this country will evolve.

[ej510]

43. I think the world is headed for a lot of civil wars.

[Hobo]

48. I would live in Frankfurt I love it there

[Nye Bevan]

53. Let me guess...... not Jewish? (nt)

[ej510]

54. I'd live there and my cousins mother is half jewish 1/4 black and 1/4 cherokee indian.

His mother was my grandmother's sister.

[Luciferous]

55. Germany is one of my top picks if I ever leave the United States.

New Zealand is my first.

[ej510]

57. I hate to say it, but it is true this country is so fucked up.

[pitohui]

60. i have expat family members as well & they do get better treatment than they ever could get here

there's more opportunity, there's more benefits, and if you do somehow fail (not that these family members would ever get sick or fail, that's MY job) there's a safety net in the civilized world that doesn't exist in our home (the usa south)

i know exactly what your cousins are talking abt and i won't pretend i don't know -- they are thinking of their children and their future

while i would not voluntarily relocate (i will relocate if i have to for medical reasons, to keep my spouse from being beggared) i fully understand why others DO make that choice

i have to say if i had kids and i could relocate to germany -- go for it, it's beautiful, it's progressive, and if something goes wrong and you get sick/injured your family isn't beggared

as a childless person i have the luxury of remaining in america, it's irresponsible if you have children not to give them every opportunity tho and to give them the benefit of a EU passport/right to work in so many countries of the world/health care in so many countries of the world/great education and so on...

your cousins love their children and want the best for them, patriotism has to take second place to love of one's own child

i would never crap on that or on your cousins either, they are doing what they think best for their families

"cruel" may seem a harsh word but it's an accurate one, if we are honest -- our country pounces on and destroys our sick AND ALSO THE FAMILIES OF OUR SICK, it is not enough to destroy the sick person, every one related to the sick person must be drained and cheated of their chance at life, there's more profit in the hospital/addiction/prison system that way for our corporate owners you see...

[ej510]

62. My cousin served for his country and was shipped to Frankfurt I am certain Reagan made it easy to

remain overseas.

[pitohui]

65. hoo yah! reagan made you feel like a decent person wasn't welcome in america

he seemed to be aiming the "great communications" at bigots, racists, and haters

[jannyk]

69. My English family wouldn't live here if you paid them. They won't even

visit anymore. Mum, Dad, 2 sisters, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, cousins - none of the buggers want to come again. We usually meet up in Paris or Amsterdam every year as I don't want to go back to London every year either.

[truebrit71]

93. Wow, that's a shame...I've been a couple of times..

..i'd love to go back..great beer, great food..

[jannyk]

107. I was born and grew up there - why would I want to vacation there every year?

I was nearly 30 when I came to the US. I agree about the beer and food tho' - although I still prefer Paris to anywhere else.

[woo me with science]

74. Nearly one in four American children in poverty.

People skip health care because they cannot afford it, even with corporate insurance reform. Medical bankruptcies are not declining. Facing old age when you are poor in America is a terrifying proposition.

There is no excuse for it.

[Vinca]

78. Do they have any interest in adopting an American woman with a husband and 2 cats?

[closeupready]

82. With some reservations, I agree that our government can be cruel.

nt

[ileus]

85. I've worked with a lot of germans (siemens) the all say that....but they change their minds

After getting assignments in the states and living here a while. I know 4 or 5 that come over "just for this one job" and never returned...

The Anti-American hyperbole is strong in Germany.

[KillCapitalism]

86. Really, no one in their right mind should want to live in the US

Like many here have said, it's primarily people from 3rd world countries. You really never see anyone from Scandinavia come here, it would be truly insane to leave such a civilized society. I can understand someone coming here from Sierra Leone where many people work for less than $2 a day. Quite a few come from Asia to get educations at our universities, but if the GOP gets their way, educators will all be working for minimum wage with no bennies. Once that happens they'll no longer come as our school/universities will become a joke.

If I could, I'd most want to live in Denmark, Norway, or Sweden. They really take good care of their people there.

[sally_witts]

90. http://freshdeals.com.au/

http://www.freshdeals.com.au>http://www.freshdeals.com.au

[JokerAllstar]

91. A lot of Europeans would never live here lol

[Blue_Tires]

92. I've been to Frankfurt...my kind of town...

[HipChick]

95. I've lived in Europe half my life

Every country has pro's and con's..the grass sometimes looks greener, but in reality it may not

[conspirator]

101. I refused a job in germany. It's fucking cold and dark half of the year n/t

[didact]

103. Thanks...keep us posted on your cousin's further contemplations*

nfm

[14thColony]

104. Same for me

Since 1993 I've lived in the U.S. less than three years. The longer I'm away the more it has become a foreign country for me. I'm perfectly happy in Europe, and the only question for me is which (EU) country next.