How can an American worker accept wages which start at $7.25 - $8.00 an hour?

[ej510]

Oh yeah and receive 20 - 32 hrs a week. With no vacations, no sick leave, no maternity leave, no health care, no pension or 401k. I mean nothing. Not a fucking thing.

[bobbolink]

1. And then only get part-time.

[ej510]

3. Oh yeah and no set schedule. The job becomes your life even though it's part time.

[TahitiNut]

98. "On call." Warehoused. Leashed to our "master's voice."

:puke: :puke:

[Incitatus]

2. How can they? Because many have no choice. nt

[Initech]

4. I make $12/hr. It fucking sucks.

[ej510]

7. $12 an hour isn't shit. I have you beat. I make $9, but I am a full time student at CCSF.

[SoCalDem]

32. My friend has been at the same job for 30 years + & her takehome is just about $1600 a month

:(

she has a small 401-k & medical coverage that is pretty reasonably priced (keeps going up though).. Her rent is $1k a month and when her invalid brother passes away, she will probably be living with us.. His SSI is all that allows her to have her own place.

She's worked since she was about 14, most of it as a waitress..

[bobbolink]

5. Here's one for ya... how can people on SSI live on $674 a month???

HOW??

It amounts to $4.22 an hour.

Does it matter?

[bobbolink]

6. But, you see, they aren't "working people", so they don't count, do they?

[ej510]

8. How about we cut the defense budge and quadruple the SSI payouts. I feel for anyone on SSI I have a

disease called Myasthenia Gravis.

[bobbolink]

9. Its like the weather... EVERYBODY says that, and nobody does itl.

They say it, they all agree on it, then it is shelved and forgotten.

Meanwhile, people are suffering, are homeless and sick, and .......

:nuke:

It just fucking doesn't matter.

If you aren't working, you might as well set yourself on fire.

[Ghost in the Machine]

13. I do it on $1000/mo from disability... and I'm a single father with 2 kids

We're surviving for now... my total bills, house payment, electric, phone & internet, runs between 500-600/mo The rest goes for groceries, gas and insurance for the vehicle.

:hi:

[REP]

28. .

[bobbolink]

39. well, then good. I guess the rest of us can just.....

[WCGreen]

15. $ 620 SSI is what I get....

I couldn't live alone, I am stuck in an awful situation that can never get out of...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

25. ...

:hug:

[Akoto]

41. I really know how you feel, only with a bit less cash.

I get $449/mo on SSI, and $107 in food stamps. I'm only 26, so the thought of living on that for so many years is pretty tough, but I am thankful compared to when I was disabled and had no income. It has changed my life for the better, especially the Medicaid.

As you say, I can't live alone. I'm with my parents, and honestly happy that way, as I don't think living alone is wise when one has constant pain. If I must ever part with them, it'll be my brother or aunt. Don't like having to rely on others, but that's the reality one must accept.

[bobbolink]

58. You're lucky you have family. Many don't.

[Akoto]

85. I know. I feel very lucky, but at the same time ...

... I am also terrified of losing them. Don't know what I'd do.

[bobbolink]

87. What you'd do is what the rest of us do..... homeless, etc.

[Akoto]

102. Thanks. I guess I deserved the extra anxiety? n/t

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

114. There's a lot of us living it. And dying it. We are forgotten and ignored.

[Akoto]

124. I guess I just don't get your point when you refer to me.

Am I supposed to apologize for having family? Should I feel guilty for being chronically ill and having finally gotten some assistance? Trust me, it wasn't easy. I had to go before a judge after two years of fighting and worry, when I can neither sit nor stand for ten minutes at a time. My life is constant torture, constant pain, and my bed is a prison. I am aware that there are people who have no roof, but there was a time when having one wouldn't have stopped me from killing myself to end the pain.

There are people out there with terrible problems, but that doesn't lessen mine. I'm dealing with it in the present, because always worrying about the future would destroy me. It once nearly did. I suggest you stop belitting the burdens of others to advance your own cause, because you know nothing of their lives.

[bobbolink]

125. It isn't about you. It is about recognizing that there are also people who are suffering more, and

that this country, this party, this group of people who call themselves "progressives" for the most part, don't give a shit.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON can take some action.. no matter your situation.

You can too.

If you remember, you asked what would happen if you didn't have the family. I responded with reality.

I answered YOUR question.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[REP]

27. Well, SSD does pay more at least

Mine pays quite a bit more than this "$674" I keep hearing about, but I worked for year and years before I became too disabled too work.

[bobbolink]

53. I'm glad you got yours.

[PassingFair]

33. With rent subsidized apartments @ $176 a month and Medicare.

My aunt did OK...

She is in a nursing home now, paid for with SSI contributions and medicaid.

I guess she is lucky that she is OLD.

I will fight for SSI, because I have seen
it make the difference between a comfortable
life and life on the sidewalk.

[bobbolink]

51. WHAT subsidized housing---the housing that is being cut 8.9 BILLION???

I'm glad she got hers.... now do you care that others CAN'T?

Do you know that there are waiting lists of YEARS to get into subsidized housing??

Do you know that many municipalities don't even HAVE waiting lists anymore, because there aren't enough available units?

Do you know, for instance, that cities like Atlanta, when they have some vacancies coming up, will open the waiting list FOR ONE DAY... and 30,000 people showed up to reply, and 62 were injured enough to require them to go to the hospital?

Are you aware of reality?

[PassingFair]

54. I'm saying that the safety net works for some.

Again, she was/is OLD...not disabled and young.

And yes, I care that others CAN'T.

I am aware that her situation could change with
a republican gov. in our state.

I am aware of reality.

[bobbolink]

57. You are talking about the PAst as if it exists NOW. What I am telling you, what some of us have

been saying on DU over and over and over, with few who are willing to listen, is that REALITY is no longer what you saw in the PAST.

That is GONE.

Glad she got hers. People now... young and OLD alike, can't get it.

Get it?

[PassingFair]

64. She is still alive...in a nursing home paid for by medicaid and SSI...

She is still GETTING hers.

GET IT?

Go bully someone else.

[bobbolink]

66. Yeah, I get it. Its all about her.

You COULD protest for others who DON"T HAVE WHAT SHE HAS.

You COULD have joined in our effort to protest these budget cuts affecting OTHERS.

You COULD learn the current facts and help to educate others, in order to change the disaster happening to people... over 3 million people who are homeless BECAUSE of the low-income housing shortage, but it continues because people can't be bothered.

[PassingFair]

67. No, it's all about you and your rage. You don't know me.

You don't know what I do or don't do.

Fuck off.

[bobbolink]

68. Thank you for breaking the rules with your profanity. Anger? Yeah, you got it...

I told you reality... I didn't attack you, nor did I use profanity in a personal attack.

So, look to your own self.

YOU posted erroneous information... I corrected it.

BULLYING is what is happening to people who can't get housing because "progressives" only care about their own family, and don't care enough to understand the reality of what is happening.

The RW also gets angry and defensive when they are shown to be wrong.

[PassingFair]

71. I did not post "erroneous information". I posted facts.

Your method of advocacy for the homeless is counter-productive.

You ARE a bully.

[bobbolink]

72. WRONG. Subsidized housing is NOT available.

Telling people it is is not only WRONG, it keeps homelessness growing.

You can erupt in anger and call me names (which is against the rules), but it doesn't change the FACTS.

That erroneous reporting is the direct cause of homelessness, and yes, many of us will fight that.

[PassingFair]

75. Your situation is not the ONLY situation.

http://www.michigan.gov/mshda/0,1607,7-141-5555-64014--,00.html

snip>HOUSING CHOICE VOUCHER RENTAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAM

This federal program provides rent subsidies for very low income people who find their own housing in private homes and apartment buildings. MSHDA administers approximately 24,000 Housing Choice Vouchers. Note: The waiting list for this program is very long and is closed when full. Open application periods are advertized in the newspapers.To apply for a Housing Choice Voucher contact the Housing Agent assigned to the county where you wish to reside. The Housing Agent will verify the status (open vs. closed) of the waiting list, explain eligibility requirements, etc.



I'm done arguing with you.

You attack well intentioned people on a regular basis.

[bobbolink]

77. You just confirmed what I have been saying.... ALL those programs, if you actually read

what you posted, have waiting lists.... or even no lists because nothing is available.

Bashing me byy trying to paint is as only about me ~~chortle~~, when I clearly told you there is a housing shortage of over THREE MILLION UNITS, shows the lack of any concern or interest.

Go ahead and bash me and say it's only about me. When the quiet suicides erupt into mass violence, maybe then you will get it.

Its really a shame that so many of you want to wait for that.

[PassingFair]

79. Chortle away.

There have always been waiting lists.

[bobbolink]

80. I'm so glad you approve of waiting lists... years long, and many of them CLOSED.

Keeps the rabel in the streets, where they belong.

Sensitivity and caring duly noted.

[Bluenorthwest]

84. This is from the Detroit ,Michigan Housing Commission

DHC’s Wait Lists are currently CLOSED. DHC is not accepting applications for housing assistance at this time.

Since the demand for housing assistance often exceeds the limited resources available to HUD and the local housing agencies, long waiting periods are common. We do not anticipate re-opening any Wait Lists in the near future. DHC opens its HCV waiting list on an as needed basis.

Because of the overwhelming demand for assistance in most categories, when DHC’s wait lists get low, we usually hold a lottery to select families to add to the wait list. A lottery ensures that all families who express an interest in Section 8 or Public Housing assistance are given an equal opportunity to apply for a limited number of openings. Your place on the wait list can go up or down as families’ preferences change.

DHC does not provide emergency housing.
http://www.dhcmi.org/PageInd.aspx?page_id=2

Grand Rapids:
The GRHC is not currently accepting new applicants to our Section 8 Housing Choice Voucher Program.

Information for those who applied to our Section 8 Program November 15-19, 2010:
The GRHC has drawn 3,000 applicant names by computerized random lottery, and these households have been added to our Section 8 waiting list.
http://www.grhousing.org/pages2/section8.html

It seems there are more stories than just your Aunt's even in your own home State.

[PassingFair]

86. Jeebus. I never claimed that my aunt's was the "only" story.

I just detailed HER story.

Section 8 is not strictly for the elderly.

My aunt, as I repeatedly stated, is elderly.

[bobbolink]

96. THANK YOU!!!

:pals:

[xphile]

127. You do realize that the existence of waiting lists means that there are

people who are in need but aren't being helped right?

Are you arguing that the existence of the programs despite the fact that people who are in need are going without means that the programs are covering things adequately?

The fact that a relative of yours lucked out and managed to get the help she needs does not mean that the program is working as it should. Unless of course the accusation that you only care about you and yours is an accurate one.

:shrug:

[PassingFair]

134. Yes. I am "arguing" that my aunt's situation holds true for everyone.

Of course, I only care about me and mine.

:crazy:

WTF is the problem here?

Someone asked a question, and I related MY experience
HERE.

:crazy:
:crazy:

[xphile]

136. Either you are making a piss poor argument or you're not explaining yourself very well.

The existence of a program doesn't really alleviate anything if people who need the program can't access it. Therefore, it ought not be touted as a solution to the problem. You talking about your relative having been able to use that program then dismissing the very real argument that people cannot access the programs due to wait lists makes it sound as though you don't give a shit about that multitude of people which seems to me why you're getting so much flack.

If you have a problem then you either need to explain yourself better or fess up.

[jacquelope]

88. Insufficient number of housing units is insufficient?

Is your point here that we are dealing with a shortage, which pretty much makes any move the Government could make, a moot issue?

(Aside from the community getting together to build new housing?)

[bobbolink]

92. ??? Are you saying you are OK with lack of low-income housing?

I don't know why you are talking about "the governor".

?????????????

[jacquelope]

94. Are you kidding me?

FRAK no, I'm not okay with that. Not in a million years, not even when I used to be a Republican.

I was talking about the Government, not the Governor.

[bobbolink]

97. Oh, OK... that explains it.

[CLANG]

108. You're delusional. You attack almost EVERYBODY! Wake up!

[CLANG]

107. You've got a boulder on your shoulder. Jesus CHRIST!

[PassingFair]

110. Don't waste any more time with "Ignored".....

That poster could turn someone republican over time!

:crazy:

[bobbolink]

116. Thank you, dear. That is exactly my intent.

:crazy: back atcha...

Just remember these clues the next election, when you are clammoring for the votes of poor people you diss.

[CLANG]

117. Thanks, I hate to do that, but I'll make an exceptions for her/him.

[AlabamaLibrul]

10. It is not a matter of what you accept, it is a matter of what the owners will give you n/t

[ej510]

12. Whether you are fully employed, underemployed, or unemployed we are

all stuck in the rat race and you have less than 1% chance to get out of it.

[WinkyDink]

45. Until they meet the Molly Maguires, son.

[uppityperson]

11. Many have the choice of that or no income. It really sucks. It is wrong.

[Raschel]

17. These are the wages that unemployed people are returning to. :(

[uppityperson]

19. I know, believe me, I know. I have a choice

can go back to my $25/hr job and burn out again, or find some low wage low stress job. Except I'm over qualified for those. Hoping my business picks up again when people decide the recession is over and they can spend money again.

[hfojvt]

14. people have been doing it for years

did you just now notice?

I still remember in February 1993 when I got my first factory job. I was working the night shift and started at $4.50 an hour (that's $6.85 in today's money for those of you keeping score.)

I remember walking home and how I felt.

You know how I felt?

I was practically walking on air! I had a job!! I just made $36!! I wasn't gonna starve to death! I was gonna make it.



Of course, that feeling didn't last. I also remember how I felt later every night when I got up to goto work.

I was thinking to myself "grrrriiiiiinnnnnnd". I felt like I was being ground down.

The old phrase "nose to the grindstone" finally made sense.

Hey, you do what you gotta do until you get something better. A $7 an hour job is better than no job at all.

[Astraea]

16. just did

$7.35 for a job that has me doing everything in the store, at everyone's beck and call, expected to remember 100 things at once. Oh, and in a 'right to work' state.

But, it gets me out of the house.

p.s. -- just love how every big store has an anti-union video to show you during training, full of lies and half-truths. Here's one you'll love: they have a 'former union worker' saying she had to be in the union whether she wanted to or not -- gee, I had no idea that happened when a MAJORITY of people vote to be in a union! Almost like an election.........

[NOLALady]

18. That is the reality for my daughter.

She can survive only because she lives at home. We've converted our garage into an apartment for her and my grandchild.

My retirement pension is more than her salary.

[hfojvt]

22. that doesn't sound totally bad to me

I always thought that life would be better if we all shared, cooperated and helped each other.

Although it seems to me she could perhaps survive better if a baby daddy was providing some income and support.

[NOLALady]

35. Did I say that he did not help them?

He does supply support. We can also count on his parents. But, even with their help she cannot afford to live on her own.

I agree, it is not totally bad. But, I didn't have a high paying job at her age, yet I was living on my own and buying my first home.

















me

[demwing]

20. What will we do when the price of a gallon of gas exceeds the minimum wage?

Don't scoff, it could happen

[jacquelope]

50. Die.

That's what they want.

In the end this is all about population control. Starve the poor until they go away.

[demwing]

55. Thanks, Sunshine!

your honesty is like a dark stormcloud on the horizon of my soul :rofl:

[jacquelope]

69. It's not the world I want

I just hope that telling the truth as bluntly as possible will wake up a few more people to take a louder stand against the social darwinists who call themselves captains of industry.

[demwing]

78. I hear you, but your one word, subject line answer was funny

in a dark, end-of-the-world sort of way

[Kievan Rus]

21. If the top 0.1% can convince the average American...

to accept voting against their own interests, well then they can convince them of just about anything.

[Chris_Texas]

23. For a huge number that would now be a decent job

[GSLevel9]

24. if he wants to EAT he will take the job...

meet the new normal!

:sarcasm:

[CommonSensePLZ]

26. I would kill for that now

Not actually though. :)

[lonestarnot]

34. And even if you really wouldn't, day coming that people really will.

[bobbolink]

60. Exactly. The day is coming.

Now it is quiet suicides.

It will come to violence turned outward.

[jacquelope]

89. We used to know that the cops and troops would fight for the rich

After Wisconsin, I wonder about that now.

When the troops themselves are poor that makes for bad tidings for the plutocrats.

[bobbolink]

90. I'm not talking about cops or middleclass. I'm talking about poor people who are being shut out

... the LOCKOUT is against US.

I will repeat.. for now, the quiet suicides can be ignored.

Later, that rage will turn outward, and there will be violence.

It isn't all about the middleclass.

Really, it isn't. I know that is hard to conceptualize.

think about it...........

[jacquelope]

93. But it won't just stay contained among the poor

This crisis has driven many middle class into the ranks of the poor. They too will be enraged.

It isn't all about the poor OR the middle class - it's going to be about BOTH. And the police and military won't be automatically trustworthy in putting it down.

[bobbolink]

95. sigh.... I am explaining something to you.....

I would like for you to hear the distinction.

Look at Wisconsin, for example. That is MIDDLECLASS people. They are getting attention. They are being heard. People are pitching in to give support in all kinds of ways.

NOW... try to stay with me here.. Poor people are suffering just as much... more, actually, but I won't haggle that point for now.

We aren't mentioned. Nobody illuminating our horrible situation. Nobody pitching in to join us in protest, very few who listen, fewer who actually try to bring about JUSTICE for us.

Now, do you see the difference?

YOUR rage is being expressed outwardly.

OURS is inward...we get attacked if we dare become angry.

So, it is held in for the most part.

That can't last forever.

It either IMPLODES or EXPLODES.

More and more it has been IMPLODING... quiet suicides.

The day will come when suddenly it builds like Wisconsin, and it will EXPLODE.

And you will feel the resulting shrapnel.

So, you can listen now and reach out and HEAR us, or you can say it is no different and hence all about you, and let the EXPLOSION build up.

Your choice.

[ej510]

99. Keep mentioning poverty at has to beaten into the brains

of people on the left, because when the middle class is doing well people in this country are living below the poverty level.

[bobbolink]

100. thank you for understanding. It is a complete brick wall.

:grr:

I appreciate the words... :pals:

[ej510]

120. No problem, I am not too far from poverty myself.

[jacquelope]

103. and I am explaining something to you...

I know that the anger among the poor cannot stay directed inward forever. I look FORWARD to the day their rage explodes.

Listen very closely here: where I am coming from, it's time that the poor's rage and the middle class's rage become one big rage and not one in which the poor and middle class clash against each other. I did not say this was "all about me". It's not all about the poor OR the middle class - it is about both. The corporate state is at war with the middle class and the poor, they are driving the middle class into the ranks of the poor and are trying to flush them all out in favor of a Mexico-style plutocracy.

ANY MINDSET that does not recognize the middle class and the poor as being ALL IN THE SAME BOAT is a mindset that is poorly adapted to reality.

I am telling you bobbolink, this is about both. It is absolutely about both. The middle class is stupid to ignore the plight of the poor, and vice-versa. One's dilemma is the other's. When one becomes angry both need to become angry. United we stand, divided we fall.

[bobbolink]

113. Then open your arms and heart and accept us. Quite simple, actually.

[jacquelope]

135. I do.

I feel we should all be united against the corporate state.

[CommonSensePLZ]

138. Gah! Scary truth

:hide:

[Cid_B]

29. Depends on what you do for that $7.25...

Each job is different...

[quaker bill]

30. I worked too many minimum wage jobs to count

over a dozen years to put myself through college. All of them were like that. My first paid $1.35 an hour, of course gas then was $0.25 a gallon. I recall working a hard 40 hour week and getting my first paycheck, $47 and change after taxes. The good ones were when the boss wasn't too abusive and you occasionally got a few hours of overtime...

It was always nasty, but also always somewhat better than unemployment and food stamps, not by much, but better.

[jacquelope]

31. The economy will collapse at that rate

That's the only way out of this. Collapse the economy and make the robber barons go elsewhere to ruin other nations. Then we start over without them. Physically run them out of liberal territories if necessary.

[MedicalAdmin]

36. Run them out? No.

Read up on operation hammer of god. That's how we'll deal with them.

[Brickbat]

37. "If that is all he can get, and he takes it, I should say that's enough." J.P. Morgan, responding to

someone who asked if $10 a week was enough for a family to live on.

[jacquelope]

49. The Law of Iron Wages

The corporate elite are trying to create a situation where there's too many people competing for work; pushing real wages toward subsistence level.

I've always said that Malthusian ideology moved into the halls of capitalist thinking.

[FLSurfer]

38. I own a small retail business and

thats all I can afford to pay my help. I could work extra hours myself and eliminate both of my part time employees.
I like to think I'm offering them something.
A few dollars, some experience.......something.
Hopefully they will move on to bigger and better things, but for now at least they are making some money.
I should say, at this point I'm not getting "rich" myself and could use the extra money I'd make by eliminating them.

What would you have me do as a business owner?

[IndyPragmatist]

40. well, I make slightly more than that...

I make 10/hr working for the government. And I live quite nicely.

I do not get paid for vacations, sick days, no maternity leave (although I'm a man, so no biggie there), no health care, no pension, or 401k.

And I am very happy with my job and my current situation in life. I know that I will make more money in the future, I just live within my means for now and enjoy what I have.

[PatSeg]

65. He lives in California

and the cost of living is really high there. $10 an hour is quite different in different locales.

There are places where I could live comfortably on $10 an hour, but California isn't one of them.

[Jamastiene]

42. No other choices.

In a lot of situations, there are no other choices other than no money per hour. People kept in a desperate quality of life will do anything to survive. TPTB know that. It is how they maintain control and force people into jobs at wages that are below a living wage.

My question is how can we stand up when we are constantly forced to live on our knees.

[WinkyDink]

43. St. Ronnie said we can vote with our feet, so....move to Guatemala?

[rucky]

44. When they have no other choices and no hope for better ones in the future.

That's what this assault on workers is all about: Cheap & compliant labor.

[Bandit]

46. But you get to imagine how well those billionaires are doing.

That should ease any pain you might feel.. They are eating caviar and lobster, but they have no problem with you eating cat food...Doesn't the thought of their luxury warm your cockles?

[IndyPragmatist]

52. No, it doesn't.

I accept that there are some people that will be rich. Some of those billionaires deserve their wealth. Bill Gates has helped create millions of jobs by creating a (relatively) cheap operating system that can be used by hundreds of millions of people. This has helped spur business and ultimately create millions (probably) of jobs.

Think about it, despite all the problems with Windows (and some unethical behavior), it has helped allow computers to be accessible to many many more people, and help create jobs.

I guess I don't need a 30,000 car or 2,000 square foot home to be happy.

[Bandit]

59. Do you think he deserves to pay taxes at a lower rate than you?

He doesn't think so either, but Republicans do.

[IndyPragmatist]

62. not at all...

But I am not going to be jealous about it. I've always thought that money doesn't buy happiness. I make 10/hr and live very well in a downtown apartment in a major city. I am happy.

[Bandit]

73. Money does indeed buy happiness and it creates much unhappiness as well

Money is what makes the world go around..It is needed to keep society functioning. Those with the most should pay the most. That is Progressive Taxation, something the Democrats have been for since their inception.. Republicans are not for that at all. Republicans don't want society to function. They want to live happily in their gated communities and never have to rub shoulders with the unclean workers of America..You may be happy about the redistribution of wealth in this country but I certainly am not..For over thirty years there has been a huge transfer of wealth upwards and that is now escalating..Enjoy your ten dollars an hour while it lasts because the whole object of what Republicans are doing is to lower wages throughout America. When prevailing wage goes down so does yours...

[IndyPragmatist]

76. To be quite honest, I'm not very concerned about the distribution of wealth...

While I would like to see the distribution become more evenly, we have MUCH larger issues at hand right now. Our debt, which continues to grow, is causing the dollar to lose its value. It will continue to lose its value. If we do not address this soon, we will be forced into default, which will cause the dollar to be nearly worthless. Prices will skyrocket and the poor will suffer the most.

Almost everyone with a job in America falls into the global elite. I make in the mid 20ks annually and that puts me in the top 10% of the world. Far too many are consumed with greed. The rich, middle class, and poor...the majority just want more. Well, even if the dollar collapses, the rich will still be fine. Not AS rich, but still able to afford what they want and need. The middle class will become what is now considered "poor", and the "poor" in America will become actually poor.

I would much rather make 25k with a strong dollar, than make 100,000k after we default on our debts.

[bobbolink]

81. I am sooo relieved to know you look forward to us poor folk becoming "actually poor"

:puke:

[IndyPragmatist]

104. Well that's not anything close to what I said...

I will have to explain things clearly for you. Nowhere did I say, or imply, that I am looking forward to the poor folk becoming actually poor. The truth of the matter is that the poor in America are still part of the global elite. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be efforts made to improve their economic situation, but they are still better off than the vast majority of people in the world.

If we continue our ridiculous deficit spending, the American poor will become comparable to the rest of the world. The arrogance of our leaders of the last 20 years has shown that we think we are too big and important to fail. That is not the case.

It simple economics, if the dollar fails, we all fail. We should address short term solutions to help the poor, but not at the expense of the long term stability of our currency.

[bobbolink]

115. Actually, that IS what you said. And when you say that *I*, who lives in my car, am part of the

"Global elite", then there is no use reading further or "discussing" further.

That kind of ignorance is exactly why this country is in the shape it is in.

Enjoy it.

[IndyPragmatist]

118. You own a car? That is more than 90% of the world.

And no, again, that is nowhere near what I said. I am really confused how you could look at my statements and get that from it.

[bobbolink]

119. How horrible of me! I should get rid of it, and live in the street and get mugged and raped!

THEN maybe you would approve.

But I'm guessing not.

I really do appreciate your attempt at humilation and guilt.

Very, very sweet of you.

Maybe someday it will be YOU.....

[IndyPragmatist]

121. LMAO...pot meet kettle

thanks, that was the hardest I've laughed in a while. To accuse me of trying to use guilt? hahaha.

[bobbolink]

122. I'm gratified to know that my suffering affords you entertainment.

Funny, in another thread we were discussing affluent people having a good laugh at the suffering of others....

[Bandit]

82. And just how do you address the Debt when you give the affluent tax cuts which directly our Deficit

The ONLY way the Debt is going to be Paid down is through revenue. It is not going to be paid by cutting Education or Medicare. Those cuts won't even stop Deficit Spending let alone Debt reduction...The ONLY way to do as you wish is through Progressive Taxation. We can not continue to empty our National Treasury and give it to the wealthy with out the wealthy paying some taxes.. It just ain't going to happen...Remember When President Clinton was in Office we actually ran a budget surplus for the last two years of his term and the National Debt was being paid down.. The National Debt Clock, which had been in place since Reagan was actually shut down. It took only about three months for Bush* to get his tax cuts passed and the Debt clock was restarted and now is such a blur it can not even be read...

[jacquelope]

91. Read up on Ireland

They tried cutting their debt by cutting programs instead of taxing the rich. Look where they are now.

[IndyPragmatist]

111. I know quite a bit about Ireland.....

My current statistical economics professor is a former MP from Northern Ireland. You are correct that they tried to cut programs instead of taxing the rich, but that wasn't what caused them problems. They were destroyed by the 2008 collapse.

Relatively speaking, Ireland had a huge public sector. Much larger than the United States. Many of the cuts are intended to be temporary. They did not want to raise taxes because many international corporations continue to use them to shift revenue. If they were to raise corporate taxes too much, they would lose the income from companies like Google and BP which provide billions to their government.

I am not defending Ireland. They had room to cut some programs, but they screwed up overall. I've always been in favor of higher personal income tax rates for the rich (and really, for everyone), with lower rates for businesses and corporations. A well run company will hire as many workers as possible until the next worker does not produce any profit. Even if a worker can only provide $1 of profit, it makes sense to hire them, and most companies will. However, if the government shows that they will take the tax burden from businesses, it shifts the level where workers can provide profit. Knowing that tax rates on their business could change at any given time, it makes more sense to stay slightly below the equilibrium point to ensure that tax increases will not cause them to move into the red.

Ireland's situation is very complex and also very different from the United States. I am not claiming to be an expert on the Irish government, but I do follow them more than most via my professor and UK media such as The Economist and BBC. What I do think, is that they would be better served by increasing personal income taxes on everyone (but moreso on the rich) and keeping their corporate tax rates low, to ensure that some corporations use them to shift revenue. Sadly, by doing that, it hurts the United States. Thats a global economy for you.

[jacquelope]

129. Lower corporate taxes

How is a Government supposed to provide for its people with low corporate taxes? A lot of money is made by corporations.

What's your opinion on Dubai and the Cayman islands? I heard they were corporate tax havens and they went bankrupt, moreso than Ireland.

[xphile]

128. How exactly is asking that billionaires pay more of income in taxes a matter of jealousy?

It's a matter of making sure that those who use more of the commons pay for that use of the commons. Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society although it can be argued that our society isn't all that civilized considering how we treat people in this country. That said, having the uber rich own more and not pay taxes on it is not only stupid as it's cutting revenue and attempting to get that revenue from those who can least afford it but it's an affront to the concept of a progressive taxation system which is supposed to be based on the ability to pay. Allowing the millionaires and billionaires suck off the teat of our country and not pay a damn thing back is killing all of us.

Jealousy? That is a right winged meme that's utterly ridiculous on its face. IT assumes that the rich are rich because they necessarily did something to deserve it and conversely, assumes that poor people did something to deserve to be poor. It's an obscene assumption and as memes go ought to be tossed out with a lot of other right winged memes people seem to mindlessly spit out as though it were some kind of truth rather than some nasty lie that Republicans use to make sure they can get their disgusting policies through.

[w8liftinglady]

47. you would be talking about a lot of Texans.

http://www.allbusiness.com/government/elections-politics-politics-political-parties/14442024-1.html

Abbot, who crunched the numbers cited in the release, said that among the states and the District of Columbia, Texas had the highest proportion of workers - 8.5 percent - earning at or below the federal hourly minimum wage. West Virginia had the second-most residents earning the minimum wage or less, at 7.8 percent, and Alabama followed at 7.5 percent. Oregon, Washington and California had the lowest percentages: less than 2 percent. (Some state laws exempt certain occupations from the minimum-wage standard. In Georgia, for example, tipped employees, such as waiters, are exempt.)

The federal minimum wage last increased from $6.55 to $7.25 in July 2009. Before then, in 2008, Texas ranked seventh nationally with 4.7 percent of workers earning minimum wage or less, Abbot said. That year, Mississippi had the highest share of minimum-wage hourly workers, 6 percent, followed by South Carolina (5.9 percent) and Tennessee (5.8 percent). Oregon had the lowest share, 0.8 percent.

Across the United States in 2009, nearly 60 percent of workers - 72.6 million - were paid by the hour, according to the release, including 3.6 million earning minimum wage or less, or 5 percent of the hourly workers.

Per the bureau's latest data, Chavez-Thompson gets it right: Texas has the highest share of minimum-wage workers in the nation. Her statement is True.

[Solly Mack]

48. K&R

[Duer 157099]

56. And pay $500/mo for health insurance, $4/gallon for gas...

God knows how much for rent/mortgage, not to mention food.

We live in a truly fucked society.

[NightWatcher]

61. hunger, desperation, er I mean global competition. it's all part of the plan

[ileus]

63. HS kids still live with their parents...it's called unskilled labor for a reason

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

70. try being over 50, educated, experienced,

and working for "competitive" wages, like $10 an hour. Try putting your kids through college, paying off a mortgage, saving for retirement, and paying for health care on that wage.

Oh yeah, and remember that you were making $70,000 a year before the "restructuring", or the "lay off", or the "out sourcing", or the "union busting", or whatever reason they have these days to depress wages.

[Bluenorthwest]

74. They accept it one by one.

Because they have no Unions. And so it goes.

[Zorra]

83. For some, it's what corporate media tells them they are worth, and they believe it.

For others, it's all they can get because of the shortage of jobs created by Wall St. in order to help make the American populace economically powerless so that they can be easily subjugated and therefore will be happy just to have a job. It's a corporate win-win...submissive employees and cheaper labor, and the added bonus for them is that polarize the wealth and increase the power of the plutarchy.

It's just good business to squeeze working class folks and their children until they bleed.

Unions, strikes, boycotts,

Amen.

[Populist_Prole]

130. That's so valid! I've seen some admit it.

So many skilled and thoroughly knowlegeable journeyman/tradesman so passively accept being called "Semi-Skilled" by the DOL, just because they don't have MBA's and such, and so by extension they are stupid and undeserving of compensation commensurate with their actual value. These same people will read shit in the WSJ, or even other corporate newspapers and repeat the standard boilerplate regarding executives fetching well deserved salaries to "retain talent". I'm really taken by how they just accept this tripe as though it were a law of physics.

I do suspect however, many just repeat these canards to appear well read, even though many are self admittedly very unread of politics and civics.

[Modern_Matthew]

101. The way this topic is worded suggests the worker is to blame. Not cool. nt

[CLANG]

105. That would be civil war for sure if it applied to all Americans.

[Blue_Tires]

109. +1

[LynneSin]

112. When you have no job whatsoever - that looks good

Who are we to judge why someone takes a job like that?

[Hannah Bell]

123. when you're starving a rotten orange looks good, doesn't mean it *is* good.

everyone knows why someone takes a job like that. they question why there are so many jobs like that.

[leftstreet]

131. +10000 The question is why are there so many jobs like that?

This is so fucking irritating to me.

This is no different than the bullshit, "why do women choose abusive partners?"

The better question would be, "why are there so many abusive partners to choose from?"

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Hannah Bell]

133. if wages were $1 an hour there would still be people saying "at least they have a job"

sick of them

[onethatcares]

132. if you look around, it's already started.

there are far too many people saying, "well at least I still have a job"

it's what the corporations want to hear because they know they can pull that job out of your hands in a split second and
give it to the next lowest bidder.

[femrap]

137. These are the only

jobs that are being created. So one has to work 2 of them. There are no 'good' jobs being created.

Fascist Pigs.