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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:36 PM
Original message
We need to have a serious discussion on nuclear reactors
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 09:39 PM by Paradoxical
This place is jumping through the roof. I'm seeing posts suggesting that this:

A. Could be worse than Chernobyl

B. Any radioactive discharge from the plants will blow directly over the US.



Chernobyl occurred for a number of reasons that cannot physically occur in these Japanese reactors. First off, the reactor building at Chernobyl did not have containment domes over the reactor cores. These containment domes are made of steel reinforced concrete several meters thick and can withstand a direct impact from a passenger aircraft. Second, from all that has been reported, the reactors are not suffering from a runaway reaction. At Chernobyl, the reactor suffered from a power excursion. Which is essentially a fast acting runaway nuclear reaction. It caused the remaining coolant in the reactor to flash into vapor. This happened over a a very short period of time (less than a second). And the core literally exploded into a million pieces. Without a containment dome, the explosion blew the top off of the reactor building. Exposing the reactor to the open air. Chunks of radioactive control rods rained down on the adjoining town.

What's currently reported to be happening at the Japanese plant is the overheating of the core. This is not due to a runaway reaction. It's because the pumps that flush the core with fresh coolant are currently not functioning. Even after control rods are inserted into the core, the core itself will continue to generate heat.

There is no reason to believe that the reactors at the Japanese plant will suffer from any sort of rapid runaway reaction. So there will be no explosion. And even if there was, the containment dome would stop the material from reaching the open air.

What is at risk of occurring at these Japanese plants is the melting of the reactor core. Even if the reactor core melted, it would not expose the reactor to the open air.

So why are there readings of higher than average levels of radioactivity in the plant and surrounding it? When the coolant pumps stop, the coolant will increase in temperature and thus increase in pressure. At a certain pressure, emergency valves will automatically open and dump the steam into a contained area within the building in order to decrease coolant pressure. This will cause contamination in the secondary barrier. But it does not necessarily mean that any radioactive material will exit into the open atmosphere. Hence, readings inside the building are reaching what has been reported as "1000 times" the normal levels. Now, if the readings around the plant are accurate, some radioactive material must have been discharged into the open air.


But even if that is true, the amount of material released is EXTREMELY small. And as wind or water picks up that material it will dilute it to the point where anyone at any measurable distance will receive a negligible amount of exposure to ionizing radiation. Over the distance of the Pacific ocean, any material will be greatly dispersed. To the point where it will have no impact on the health of American citizens.




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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bah, you and your pesky FACTS!
I like my news with sensationalized graphics, psudeo experts, text crawlers and ominous lead in/lead out audio...
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. and a guy with a PHD... instead of a armchair nukeapologist
fail
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
88. his facts in horrific nuclear meltdown. ya pesky to say the least.
id call them something else
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. Are you listening to this expert on Rachel Maddow's show?
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 09:59 PM by tabatha
He said we are entering into unchartered waters.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Sounds like sensationalist BS to me.
From everything that is being reported, this is an extremely unusual but not unexperienced event.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Why aren't you on Rachel's show?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Probably for a lot of reasons.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
89. its worse now that what he was saying. so i guess that makes you the sensationalist bullshitter
great work
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #89
102. you don't know whether it's worse.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #102
103. true, rather i strongly assume its worse.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 05:25 AM by meow mix
but he never mentioned a core being thrown out. and i dont know if that happened either.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #103
106. if you're going to mention "cores being thrown out" i'd appreciate it if you'd cite a source.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. id supply one if i had it..
just rumor at this point but the rumors have come true..... all the way through this, so im not doubting it at this point in time
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #107
108. yes, it's a rumor, glad you admit it. when it "comes true" you can report it.
with a link.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't think many understand that Japan has 5
Nuclear reactors.....

If you haven't seen the documentry on Chernobyl you should, it's chilling!
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. 55, not 5
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #27
111. Holy crap...
I guess I saw where they were talking about the 5 that were in trouble....geeze....
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
56. lots more than 5.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you for helping to make some sense out of this while we wait. nt
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Actually, I think Gaia's plan.....
...was ingenious.

- Just give us enough rope and we'd get rid of ourselves......








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le9y22XsXy4&feature=feedu">We-Must-Shift-The-Paradigm
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
75. ?
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. thanks for this info n/t
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. You sound like you know there is no danger. How many times has this ...
kind of thing happened to reactors in the past? If the answer is "not very often," might such a small sample size cause us to be a little more circumspect as to how much danger these events pose to the people who live around the plant?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nuke plants are a mistake. It's the unforeseen events
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 09:48 PM by Cleita
that can happen that there can be no preparedness for before they happen that makes them unacceptable, no matter how well they are engineered and operated. Even if they were the safest plants in the world, the inability to safely take care of the waste, that does accumulate as the plant operates, makes them an unacceptable solution regardless. Also your last paragraph is plainly a fabricated lie.

But even if that is true, the amount of material released is EXTREMELY small. And as wind or water picks up that material it will dilute it to the point where anyone at any measurable distance will receive a negligible amount of exposure to ionizing radiation. Over the distance of the Pacific ocean, any material will be greatly dispersed. To the point where it will have no impact on the health of American citizens.


It's a known fact that it takes 50,000 years for radiation to disappear no matter how small the sample is.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Coal powered plants discharge more radioactive material into the atmosphere
Than nuclear power plants by a large margin.

The "unforeseen" dosage of radiation you receive on a daily basis by simply driving by a fossil fuel plant is many times higher than your life time dosage from nuclear plants.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. too bad those plants are not the immediate topic
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 09:58 PM by meow mix
love how you guys refuse to discuss your own failings, rather you just change the subject to something else. its kinda sad and pathetic
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. And talking about nuke plants being a mistake is not off topic?
The discussion is already off topic. I was merely making a statement amount nuclear plants.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. We don't need coal plants either.
All those dirty and dangerous methods of generating energy are frankly passe.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Nuclear power is neither dirty nor dangerous.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I wish I could sit on that pink cloud you sit on
but I'm a realist. Really, are you a nuclear engineer or something? Are you afraid of losing your job?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. You're a realist? Have you ever even set foot inside of a nuclear power generation facility?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I have one fifteen miles from me. I have sat in
a local and talked to the engineers who work there. After a few beers they agree about the dangers.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I've been in a facility. I have seen the reactor. I have spoken to nuclear chemical engineers.
I have spoken to the chief chemical engineer at the Palo Verde nuclear power generating station. The largest nuclear power plant in the United States.

Do you want to take a guess what they said?

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. They said (to themselves) "I want to keep my job so I'm not saying shit about this."
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. So you choose not to believe a nuclear chemical engineer.
And, instead, who do you believe exactly?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. The engineer who built the Titanic said it was unsinkable.
Never take at face value a statement from someone whose livelihood denies him the possibility of being wrong.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
72. I've spent a fair amount of time in a reactor facility
It was a research reactor, not a production plant.

Bottom line, if you ignore the waste disposal issue, nuclear reactors are the cleanest form of mass power production currently available. All the bad stuff is kept inside.

Until something goes wrong. At Three Mile Island, a great many things went wrong. None of these things were in and of themselves non lethal, or even trivial. It was the chain of these small events that added up to a breach, a Loss of Coolant Accide (LOCA). Some of these events included instrumentation failures that caused operators to misunderstand the situation in the reactor vessel ... and make exactly the wrong decision at exactly the worst possible time.

In Japan, some of the best nuclear power operators and engineers in the biz are going up against what is very near the worst case scenario ... multiple reactors in jeopardy amidst a wide spread natural disaster that has crippled infrastructure necessary to respond to the developing crisis. It will be interesting to see how they manage it ... trust me, engineers will be studying these events for years.

But if they are unable to keep this under control, then the demon will be released ... and nuclear power will suddenly be the most dirty power you can imagine.

Great stuff, nuclear power ... but you can't ever, EVER drop the ball ... or let mother nature strip it from ya. The consequences of failure are just too horrific.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #72
90. +1000000 I wish I could recomend this post
If we could deal with the OTHER product...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #25
68. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. Unless, of course, that nuke plant starts spewing shit into the atmosphere.
That kind of changes the game.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. freaks? woah! you sure wafted in here with an agenda, didn't you?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Deleted message
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. but the times it doesn't work is what the crux of the matter is.
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 10:11 PM by Whisp
one oopsy is quite enough. You can understand how nuclear power technically Works all you want, but sometimes, it Doesn't Work as illustrated.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. So you think it's okay for people to flip the fuck out
because nuclear power has been unfairly stigmatized by morons like Ralph Nader?

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. it's understandable that something as deadly as a meltdown could get people 'flipped out'
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. This has killed no one and will likely kill no one.
Why don't you guys spend a little more time flipping the fuck out about the hundreds and even thousands of people who died from that gigantic tsunami?
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jacquelope Donating Member (364 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Worst wording ever.
Greenpeace is a legitimate cause. There is no reason for any liberal to go dissing them.

That said, nuclear reactors are much safer, overall, than coal fired power plants, which constantly belch out pollutants and increase our risk of acid rain. They're helping to render our oceans acidic - which is much worse than a power plant meltdown.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. PETA is a legitimate cause, too,
but that doesn't stop liberals from rightly mocking them when they do something stupid, just like Greenpeace.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. possible meltdown I should have said.
tsunami's come and go. they are awful, devastating, destructive... but they don't hang around for years doing the same thing over and over.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. "hang around for years doing the same thing over and over."
So you're position is that nuclear power plants do nothing but suffer from melt downs and expose people to radiation? That's what you think they do.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #39
85. No they essentially boil water to produce electricity
but when they do fail, not often, it is spectacular.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. "green peace freaks" Nice
:eyes:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Those darned environmentalists!
Gyad, I hate them. Always causing trouble. Pisses me off.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. Short, but to the point.
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 10:03 PM by darkstar3
The hysteria here over nuclear power is unbecoming. Thank you for facts.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
70. I wouldn't take the word of an anonymous poster over the word of a physicist
who spoke about it on Rachel's show tonight. He said it wasn't encouraged; he was gravely concerned.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. Would belong in the Environment/Energy forum,
No?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Along with the other threads on how this is going to be nuclear holocaust?
I put this here because all of the other idiotic threads are here.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
71. Ah, so enviros can't be trusted with a nuclear topic?
Not that I've seen anyone starting threads there as rash as you claim.

Actually, the GD posters seem much more hysterical and lacking facts.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
29. The Japanese reactors have steel reinforced concrete containment domes?
It's way too early to panic but as you seem to be pointing out. We should get our facts straight.
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miyazaki Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. Bump. Hard to keep it above the hysterics though.n/t
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
40. Nice comforting bullshit. Tell the truth.
You don't know what damage the facility has experienced. You don't know, we don't know, and probably THEY don't know (or maybe they do know - or why else the evactuations?) if the containment area has been breached. If it has been breached and the core melts then yes, it WOULD be worse than Chernobyl in the amount of radioactivity released. The only saving grace would be if the prevailing winds take the cloud into the Pacific, where most will settle in the ocean. The amount to actually reach the US would be less than the amount that reached Europe from Chernobyl. That would, however, fuck up Pacific fishing for some time. And then Arctic fishing. And then Atlantic fishing...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Deleted message
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:54 PM
Original message
Really? Would YOU eat radioactive fish?
Around Chernobyl they worked to strip away the contaminated topsoil because of the radioactivity that settled there. When it falls in the ocean, where does it go? There's no nice layer of soil. It goes into the water, and thus into the food chain. Worried about mercury in your tuna? Try a little radioactive iodine and strontium. Once it is in the food chain it will not go away. None of the big fish will be safe - tuna, swordfish - because the big fish accumulate contamination. That will kill the fishing industry in three oceans. At least.

Again, I ask, if there was no danger, why the evacuation?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
48. I'm going to try to explain all of this to you.
A. Water is a neutron absorber. Meaning, it is an EXTREMELY efficient barrier against ionizing radiation. Hence, less than 20 feet of water is enough to protect a human being from the core of nuclear reactor. If I had to pick a single place on earth to release radioactive material, it would be at sea.

B. When Chernobyl exploded, it cast a lot of radioactive dust into the air. The dust was from the burning of fuel and control rods. These radioactive particles, through various means, fell back to earth and landed on the top soil. The easiest way to solve this problem is to remove the very top layer of soil. You can also turn the soil to bury the radioactive material. Having radioactive material land on top of soil is much more dangerous, in terms of direct exposure to ionizing radiation, than having it land in a large body of water.

C. Radioactivity does not exist for eternity. An element or isotope will eventually decay into a byproduct.

D. I never said there was NO danger. I don't think anyone said that.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. And back at you - radioactive isotopes settle in the ocean. They
get gobbled up by plankton. The plankton get gobbled up by little fish, concentrating the minute particles just a litle bit. The little fish are eaten by bigger fish, and so on and so on until the isotopes wind up in heavy concentrations in large fish which WE take from the ocean and put on our plates.

We're not talking direct exposure here - it's the food chain. Why do you think we stopped open air testing in the south pacific? Because of radioactivity showing up in commercial fish.

The fact that water blocks radioactivity has nothing to do with it.

And sure, they break down eventually - five years; fifty years; five hundred years - depends on the isotope. Plutonium is what, 50 million years? But we're not talking plutonium here. Strontium half life, however, is about 30 years. That's a long time to go without a tuna sandwich.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Oy. Let me rephrase.
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 10:55 PM by Paradoxical
What you are saying is WRONG.

And you are demonstrating a fairly comprehensive lack of understanding when it comes to nuclear reactions, how they are regulated, ionizing radiation and how neutron absorbers work.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I understand just fine how they work in an operational plant. What I'm
talking about is a plant that has just suffered a 9.1 earthquake which is enough to snap a containment dome in half.

There is no structure on earth that is designed to withstand that magnitude quake. Triple-redundant safeguards are more than adequate for most situations, but seriously, a NINE POINT ONE EARTHQUAKE? It is a credit to their engineering that the plant didn't melt down a half hour after the quake - but to claim that it is no threat at all is nothing less than willful blindness.

And yet again I ask, if there is no danger, why the evacuation?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. "There is no structure on earth that is designed to withstand that magnitude quake."
Again absolutely false.

These types of containment buildings are designed to withstand pressures of up to 100 MPa. Which is roughly the pressure exerted on an object if it were sitting at the bottom of the deepest sea trench on Earth.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. There is a difference between pressure and shear.
You are so confident at their level of engineering - but the people who work there are EVACUATING.

Maybe they know something you don't?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Ultimate tensile strength of high grade steel reinforced concrete is over 100 MPa
Roughly 20,000 PSI.

That's tensile strength.


Evacuating non-essential personel and citizens makes sense for any situation where there is any risk. That doesn't mean that they "know" something we don't.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. What are they evactuating?
The city?

The facility?

Or just certain parts of the facility that have been designed to act as an overflow area that can be sealed in emergencies?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #53
104. LINK?
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. There are a lot of "ifs" in your post
and the OP clearly explained why these "ifs" won't happen.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. And the Titanic is perfectly safe if it hits an iceberg.
There is a world of difference between "unlikely" to happen and "won't" happen.

Any engineer who claims that a system is foolproof is, himself, the fool. When dealing with forces such as those generated by a 9.1 earthquake, all bets are off.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
64. You are talking nonsense. Why would you think the primary containment and secondary
containment and tertiary containment all broke? Why do you think the plant will melt down? Do you even know what the safety systems the plant have?
I thought only republicans ran around yelling that the sky was falling.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Until there is a way to get rid of nuclear waste - no thank you!
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. You got it
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #44
60. Do you know what the different types of nuclear waste emit?
The reason nuclear waste is so feared and maligned is that "radioactive" is a misleading term. Many types of nuclear waste emit radiation in the form of alpha and beta particles, otherwise known as helium nuclei and electron streams.

Pay a visit to your local collegiate research reactor, and learn a little bit about the usage and safety of small reactors designed specifically to generate non-weaponizable waste. Nuclear power IS safe, when it isn't used as a precursor to nuclear weaponry.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
55. Thanks for schooling us, but unless you know the exact facility design, the damage
to the reactor and possibly the containment measures you cannot possibly know what is possible with this disaster. It could be anywhere from TMI to WORSE than Chernobyl.

And that is the truth.
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
58. But, like, Godzilla blah blah h-bomb blah blah
Thanks for trying, but I don't see many eyes being opened. Fear is a powerful thing, and people have a hell of a time shaking it off in favor of facts.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
61. until they invent 'Nuke-Away!' I'm against it. n/t
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
65. There's just one itsy bitsy problem with your "theory"...
You can't control the earthquakes.

Nuclear facilities have no business being built on the Ring of Fire.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Why don't they have business there?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Maybe, if they fail to prevent a meltdown there, you will get a clue.
We should no more be building nuke plants on major fault lines than we would build a dam on a fault line. Or homes on fire-prone California hillsides. Or homes on hurricane-prone beaches.

Very simply, we cannot engineer a plant to be safe under extreme circumstances - like a 9.1 earthquake. It is pure hubris to think that we can protect ourselves from massive planetary forces.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
67. BUMP
For the love of god people read this.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #67
79. Yes. Bump.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
73. Many liberals fear nuclear power the way (and for the same reasons) cons fear muslims
It's faith man, and when you live in a crystal and float on a cloud of harmony and enlightenment, you will understand that faith is all you need.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. I'd love for you to tell me how your faith was founded.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. I have faith the human MIND.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 01:52 AM by Chris_Texas
The human mind envisioned, devised, designed, and constructed the ingenious home you are now sitting in. A home built and filled with products not seen anywhere in nature. Minds like it imagined making the artificial fabric you are likely wearing, and another devised the cut and style, while yet another dreamed up the impossibly elaborate machines to make it.

If, as is likely, your clothes were made elsewhere in the world, someone put them into a special shipping container (crafted from a blend of metals found nowhere on this planet), sized just so, which was placed onto a ship so huge it could haul the titanic on its back -- along with hundreds of other identically sized containers. This leviathan crossed the ocean at impossible speeds, perhaps even passing through an impossible canal, a man-made trench across a continent. It was then offloaded by a crane that can lift a locomotive and placed onto a truck where it was whisked across the country faster than any bird can fly -- all impossible. Those clothes arrived in a store exactly, exactly, in time for you to buy them -- not by accident, but through the careful and impossible planning of men.

You sit in your impossible house, wearing impossible clothes, talking instantly to the world using technology that was unimaginable a half-century ago. Your home is warm because someone put thought into discovering how, and he invented an impossible fire that would quietly and efficiently pipe heat to you. You sit in light where there is no flame, typing on a keyboard make from liquid sludge, a miracle. And the invisible "e-lec-tric-it-tee" that makes your computer (computer?!) work, well, that magic invisible force might very well come to you directly from one of those power plants that you condemn.

You are surrounded by the impossible, sheltered and fed by miracles of the mind, and you dare to type the words you do?

My faith is in MAN, your faith is in superstition and fear. My side is winning.



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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. A man enamored of technology. It is, and continues to be, a thing of wonder. However, what of....
wisdom? Does it play an equal role?
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Not technology, I am enamored with LIFE my friend
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 02:22 AM by Chris_Texas
LIFE is what technology gives us, and in more than the obvious (food, shelter, clean water, etc) ways.

Consider the humble dishwashing machine. It cleans our plates, helping to prevent disease, but look beyond this. Let's say such an impossible thing had never been invented, and instead you (and everyone else) had to wash each dish by hand. Off he top you would use FAR more clean water, but let's look past even that to that primitive life you are enamored with.

Let's say you spent an hour a day scrubbing those dishes -- we'll go ahead and assume that someone invented soap and hot water for you, making your job much easier. You slave away, scrubbing, an hour a day, or 365 hours a year. That's TWO WEEKS A YEAR gone. Over the course of an average 70 year life, three YEARS would have been devoted to nothing more than scrubbing.

Three years.

Forunately for you and all of us, someone who loved life more than they loved washing dishes went ahead and invented the dishwasher for us. This humanitarian added 3 years to the life of hundreds of millions, and eventually BILLIONS of people. Three years to each. Imagine what new marvels will be invented with those billions of extra man-years!

This, by the way, is the reason technology expands as rapidly as it does. Hunter-gatherers have no extra time with which to advance -- their day is given to a desperate struggle not to die. And with each new miracle that struggle becomes easier, time is added, and with that time new miracles.

(and with that I am off to a nice warm bed in my cozy house!)

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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #73
83. and your faith just went up in a cloud of radioactive smoke
fucking fail
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
80. So you work with these kind of things day in and day out?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Uhh no.
Negatory.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. But you felt the need to provoke people anyway?
Thanks. I think I will go to bed now and leave you 'pearl clutchers' to your stupid battle. The facts will be there in the morning, this is a waste of time.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #87
92. I was actually trying to calm everyone down.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
82. later today you will be eating your words
we are now having an actual release... and explosion (not yet on this)

And yes, simulations on LIGHT water reactors in puters can produce a meltdown.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. I specifically stated that a melt down is possible.
What I said is that the core cannot suffer a power excursion and thus explosion of the reactor is nearly impossible.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. As I said, you will be eating your words here
as of now they are preparing to distribute silly shit like Iodine... and have an actual release.

Oh and four people were injured already, (albeit not from radiation from what we know so far) and one is missing.

As you were asked above, why are you not on somebody's rolodex?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #86
91. i've seen you predict about 20 apocalypses that never materialized.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 05:07 AM by Hannah Bell
you never eat your words, you just go on & predict the next one, on any damn pretext.

sick of it.

eat your own damn failed predictions before you start telling other people they'll eat their words.

you're the great reporter who said the fukushima plants were in tokyo, that's how careful of the facts you are.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. Pot meet kettle.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. what disaster have i *ever* predicted? link me to it.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 05:05 AM by Hannah Bell
no rice shortage, no swine flu disaster, etc. those were my predictions & i was right.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. Waaa?
So I don't have to link you then? :rofl:

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. link me.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #86
94. Nuclear physics is a hobby, not my career.
I would never lie about something as serious as nuclear explosions just to make money. I actually have a soul.

With that being said, I still do not think the reactor containment vessel has been breached. From all that I have learned, such a breach is all but impossible. It would take a explosion of freakish proportions to compromise it.
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. brain surgery is my hobby
and I have no soul. :evilgrin:
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Well, I am a pre-law student. So I guess I will eventually have no soul.
:shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. Ah a hobby I see
While yes it would have to be energetic, one thing one learns in emergency services is... never say the word impossible.

The day you do... well you will eat those words.

The second freaky thing is when you say I've seen all, well guess what? You are in for a surprise.

This is a combo of a lot of things that ALONE would not lead to this crisis... in combination... well.. here we are.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. eat your own damn words.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #82
110. he hasn't come back yet to eat his words.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
105. I think I'll just wait and see
and hope for the best.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #105
109. I believe we have now seen.
hoping for the best is still good, but the best available outcome has taken a rather heavy beating. There are probably still worse things that might be avoided with some luck.
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