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A question we need to ask ourselves re: Pres. Obama and Bradley Manning

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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 11:46 AM
Original message
A question we need to ask ourselves re: Pres. Obama and Bradley Manning
It has become fairly clear, as the discussions concerning the treatment of Bradley Manning (and the apparent acceptability of that treatment in the eyes of the President) have unfolded here on DU, that we Democrats are split on the question of whether Manning is a hero or a traitor. I come down fairly firmly on the hero side, but I can understand the other side’s argument, and hence I respect that argument. But as Democrats, there is one thing that there should be no disagreement on if we are really being faithful to our party’s historic commitment to civil — and indeed, human — rights: the right of a person accused in either civilian or military courts to be treated fairly and humanely, and to be afforded, at all times prior to conviction or acquittal of the charges, the full presumption of innocence to which he or she is entitled both under the Constitution of the United States and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (“UCMJ”).

The simple fact of the matter is that, with respect to Bradley Manning, the military has violated its own laws concerning pre-trial confinement in its punitive treatment of Private Manning prior to trial and conviction of a crime. Section 813, Article 13 of the UCMJ is very clear on the question of how pre-trial detainees are to be treated:

813. ART. 13 PUNISHMENT PROHIBITED BEFORE TRIAL

No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances required to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.


Solitary confinement for a period of 10 months is hardly “required to insure” Private Manning’s presence at trial. Quantico officials have stated that Private Manning is being held on a “prevention of injury” (“POI”) status, and that the extreme measures — solitary confinement, stripping him of his clothing at night, etc. — are required to ensure he does not harm himself. But Quantico’s own Brig Psychiatrist has evaluated Private Manning, and has assessed him as being “low risk and requiring only routine outpatient follow-up no need for … closer clinical observation.” So the military really has not made a reasonable case for the measures it has taken against Private Manning.

Democrats have, historically, been true believers in the concept that the U.S. is (or is supposed to be) a country of laws, not of men. Democrats have championed the rights of accused persons against the unchecked prosecutorial power of the government. We have upheld the belief that laws and legal processes can and must be enforced and administered fairly, and that great care must be taken to ensure that the rights of accused persons are recognized and protected. So, in light of that heritage, whatever we might think about the question of Manning’s guilt or innocence of the charges against him, and irrespective of whether we regard him as a hero for exposing war crimes or a traitor for possibly endangering lives, the question of his treatment while in custody awaiting trial should not be a subject of controversy; certainly not among Democrats. It is a question of fundamental morality that we should expect, and demand, that he be treated humanely and in accordance with all laws to which he is subject.

This presents a dilemma for the most fervent supporters of President Obama, who has recently made it clear that he has no problem with the conditions of Manning’s detention. No doubt they are feeling somewhat besieged on many fronts, as our party is deeply divided over the President's performance on numerous fronts. But I submit that on this issue in particular, before rushing to the President's defense, they should ask themselves this question: If Private Manning’s treatment were occurring under George W. Bush, would we, as Democrats, spend even five minutes debating whether or not it was defensible? I think not. We would all be raising a hue and cry about that administration's lawlessness. How, then, do some of us justify within ourselves giving President Obama a pass on this? Look, I'm not saying people need to forswear their support of President Obama generally, but on this particular issue, he is clearly and unambiguously wrong. It's not like it's a policy disagreement or a disagreement over political strategy; it is an unequivocal moral wrong that runs counter to some of the most cherished ideals we hold both as Americans and as Democerats. If Democrats are willing to give the President a pass on this issue without calling him out on it, if we are willing to effectively place our concerns about the President's or the party's political fortunes above the principles the party supposedly exists to protect, how, then, are we any better than -- or even qualitatively different from -- the Republicans whose policies we so despise?

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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. The hero vs traitor is a straw man.
We don't know which he is; we haven't heard his defense and it doesn't matter. What we suspect is an American is subject to cruel and unusual treatment by a branch of the American government. Further, he is being denied a swift and fair trial. Finally, he is innocent until proven guilty.

"First they came for ...."

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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Good point
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 12:18 PM by markpkessinger
And, just to be clear, I was not arguing one way or the other on the "hero v. traitor" issue, but merely suggesting that it should be irrelevant to the question of how Private Manning should be treated during pre-trial confinement. I realize "hero" and "traitor" are somewhat inelegant here, but I was looking for a shorthand way of referring both to those who think his actions were justified in light of the war crimes he exposed, on the one hand, and those who think he betrayed his country by releasing classified information, on the other. The thing is, I think especially for many in the second camp, the emotion behind their opinions of his actions clouds, in many cases, their consideration of the very issues you raise.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. I certainly wasn't faulting your concise, well stated post.
I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm ashamed and more than a little frighten that his treatment is beginning to sound like something out of a Soviet "mental institution".

He didn't betray this country; he embarrassed the US government.
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. My thoughts exactly n/t
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. +1
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
50. Bingo.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. K & R. n/t
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Indydem Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why is it so hard to understand...
That Manning may be being kept in solitary to keep other INMATES from killing him?

As for the stripping hima t night, I don't know but I really don't trust the other people who are inmates at quantico. They are, after all, soldiers. Any one of them may think it's a great idea to kill the "traitor."
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's not hard to understand, it's just wrong.
Manning's welfare is their responsibility. What other inmates might do is not an excuse for abusing him.
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Excellent response! n/t
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I suggest you read this...
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Then put THEM in solitary, naked.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. If there are murderous inmates there, then they are the ones
who should be in solitary confinement. Manning has been described as a model prisoner. He is being tortured, please stop trying to excuse it.

His friend has told MSNBC recently, that he is now 'almost catatonic' from the treatment he has received.

I think it's time to remove him from the custody of the U.S. military who have a history of torturing detainees.

He is clearly in grave danger in their custody. Too many witnesses, his lawyer, his friend and others have all stated their concerns for his safety.

With that many people making these allegations, it is the duty of this president as CIC, to do more than just take the word of those being accused of the abuse.

As of now, President Obama is complicit in the torture of a U.S. soldier. He could stop it, but he has not. No excuses were made for George Bush and there will be none for this president either.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. solitary confinement is ok then?
That's funny, I thought the argument was that solitary confinement was cruel and inhumane treatment? How is it cruel and inhumane treatment for Manning yet wouldn't be for any suspected "murderous inmates"? Either it's cruel and inhumane treatment for EVERYONE or it isn't. Make up your mind.

The US is complicit in the torture of everyone in solitary confinement conditions all over the country that's been going on for decades and various abuses FAR worse than that along with it. Detainees in Gitmo are receiving far harsher treatment - they aren't even allowed attorneys or their family to know they're there or have any time limit for how long they can be held, and who knows what more or continued abuse they're getting. Yet nobody cares to talk about any of that - all that matters is what is happening to the hero of the moment, Manning.

Busts the whole argument.



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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. well said-
wrong is wrong, regardless of who is the recipient.

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. No, it's not fine, I guess you missed my point. I am making THEIR
argument. I guess I will have to add notations in the future to explain things for those who don't get nuance.

Let's try it again, slowly.

Point #1: Military: Solitary confinement is necessary to protect Manning from murderous inmates.

POint #2: Me: If that is the case you have the wrong person in solitary confinement, don't you think?



See? A simple response to their ridiculous claim. They are putting the guy who is NO threat to anyone, in solitary while the murderous inmates are apparently still roaming around with the ability to murder someone else. The ARGUMENT doesn't make sense!! Got it now?

The separate issue of solitary confinement and sleep deprivation which Manning is also being subjected to, is an entirely different matter.

Prolonged solitary confinement and sleep deprivation are psychological torture and that is the intent of it in this case.

Hope all is clear for you now.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. it that's what you meant to say, why did you not just SAY it?
Can the "nuance". If you can't make a clear point in the first place you're already losing the argument.

And your clarification with Points #1 and #2 is a real loser of an argument...

If one person in a neighborhood is being threatened by an unknown other person in a neighborhood is it wiser and more appropriate to, (a) put the threatened person in a safe environment even if it is confining, or (b) put everyone ELSE in the neighborhood in a secure environment in order that the one threatened person can be safe in the neighborhood?

According to your clarified argument with Points #1 and #2, your "wiser and more appropriate" action would be (b), which is the most stupid and unfair and illogical of solutions.

And before you go claiming that only those "murderous inmates" who should be put into solitary confinement in order to keep Manning safe from them, that was already a loser argument in the first place because the whole point to Manning being unsafe from the possibility of "murderous inmates" is that they have no idea who those "murderous inmates" may be and no way to know that.

So your argument against Manning being put into solitary confinement as a measure to keep him safe is stupid and you think he should be in general population even though there may be some unknown inmate or even several unknown inmates bent on killing him yet believe that as an inmate it is the responsibility of the institution that Manning is kept safe. And you believe that in order to keep Manning safe, the institution should be putting all the other inmates into solitary confinement regardless of how unfair and ridiculous that would be to those other inmates. And you think the MILITARY's position on this doesn't make sense???? :crazy:


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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. FYI--the Quantico brig doesn't have a general population...
Part of what makes this hand-wringing over Manning's 'solitary confinement' pretty pathetic is that, of course, the Quantico brig is about 30 cells, and they are ALL single-use. This is done for the protection of the pre-trial prisoner.

There is an expansion of the brig facilities itself underway, and when that's completed, there may be a POD system, but you never know.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. so everyone there is in the same type of conditions
Yet no one cares about any of the others.

Well.

I guess we can dump this idiotic argument that he's somehow been singled out for special harsh solitary treatment. Not that this will ever occur here of course.


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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Very well thought out and written.... thank you.
There are so few substantive posts on DU anymore that even though poverty is my focus (because it simply isn't a priority among "progressives"), I would like, with your permission, to help keep this thread kicked.

Well done!
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thank you for those kind words! n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. A logical and hopefully thought provoking argument.
One of the best OPs I've read. Thanks and keep posting.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. K & R - very well stated.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. War, corporate welfare, and torture have become fashionable when "our" guy is in charge of it.
Of course, we are assured that it's not as bad as it was, or would be, if a Republican was doing it. I suppose Manning wouldn't be as naked or in as much solitary if Bush or McCain were in charge.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. the irony is, a Dem can get away with carrying the destructure further than the RW can.
While I knew some of this, this whole misadministration has been a real eye-opener to me in just how corrupt the Dems also are... and how far they will go to destroy traditional Dem values.

Its enough to make one despair, and to rethink even voting at all......

:cry: :nuke: :cry:
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. as far as I'm concerned it will never be fashonable, OR
ok.

But, I do wonder where the outrage is for those who are not as lovable as Brendan Manning is-

He is not the first person to be held under these circumstances, where are all our voices decrying this kind of treatment for those not seen as hero?

As much as you'd like to pin this on politics, I'm not sure it sticks.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. Kick
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. again w/ rec
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. I would like to see the outrage against inhumane treatment for
ALL people- not simply those who get championed by DU, or those individuals who it is somewhat comfortable to sympathize with and
support.


Are we really concerned about 'fundamental morality' as you ask, or do we get involved only when someone 'we' like is concerned?

How many people here were concerned about Jared Loughner being held in solitary confinement under suicide watch?

Or Fahad Hashmi who was extradited from the UK in 2007 and held in solitary at MCC in Manhattan for three years before trial?

Or Nadal Hassan who though paralyzed from the waist down is under guard round the clock and has a " personal guard who stands "eye to eye" with him for 12 hours of the day" - according to Jail Administrator Maj. Bob Patterson from the Bell County Sheriff's Office.

Or when Bernie Madoff was being held on 10 south on the super-max wing of the Metropolitan Correctional Center?

Or the treatment of John Lee Malvo who was 17 when he was arrested and pressured to confess without access to his guardian or and attorney being present?

Beyond that, what of those who have been sentenced to LIFE without parole who are held in solitary confinement in super-max prisons across this nation, not until trial, but until death?

For me, this isn't about Pres. Obama, and whether or not HE believes the treatment of Bradley Manning is 'humane'. I do find it frustrating and hypocritical to be encouraged to decry the treatment of Mr. Manning, while at the same time we withhold our compassion, voices and energy in support of ALL those who have been and continue to be suffering under similar and much worse conditions, but who are more difficult for us to embrace.

If we're going to really do some 'gut-checking' (a good thing) lets do it thoroughly, and without prejudice.

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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Good post.
There are many other lives being made miserable by the inhumane conditions in our military and other jails.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. thank you-
if something is wrong, it's wrong. Even when it is being done to people that it isn't easy for us to like or support.




This land of the free, has the largest prison population in the world.

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. And so where is your thread about them?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Why do you believe that expressing compassion for Manning
necessitates withholding it from others? Or assume people have trouble "embracing" the issue of America's horrible justice and penal system?

You seem to be calling people out for hypocrisy without testing your theory first, which is a mistake.

Btw, a great speech given by Angela Davis on freedom and prison in America will be on Free Speech TV tonight at 7pm Pacific. It's worth watching multiple times and isn't on the net anywhere.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thank you n/t
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. because of the appalling silence that has existed here and
often the ugly double-standards that exist here when it comes to this exact issue.

How many times have you heard people on here make statements about "monsters" and what should happen to human beings who are accused of crimes or actions that so disturb us, that people say they want to see terrible things happen to them?

It does bother me, and seem ...curious.. that people seem so shocked and surprised by the conditions Mr. Manning is being held under, which to be honest, are far from the worst- while so many low-profile, less sympathetic people have endured, and will continue to suffer under similar and much more abusive treatment in this society on a daily basis.

It's hard not to see this as political- no, I don't approve of the way this country meets out justice, - but what is happening to Bradly Manning has been happening to thousands of people all across this country, and where have the voices been, when it wasn't someone "we" could personally identify with, or feel protective of? Or when it has happened to people we hate? Are they not people too?

The OP asks us to question why people aren't outraged over this treatment - It's a good question- Let's be honest though. If Brendan Manning was accused of doing something you couldn't feel ok about, would his treatment engender as much passion and support? If the answer to that is yes, that's great. If it isn't then, as the OP says, do we really believe in the morals and standards we claim, or is our compassion conditional?

thanks for the heads-up about Angela,-wish i could get it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. In my experience, anyway, the same people who call for blood
on those threads always side with authority, no matter what the topic.

I agree that the issue is political. It's at the heart of our politics. We can't really pretend to conduct democracy when there are classes of people who have no hope of civil or human rights.

But even so, you are making a number of assumptions about the OP, me, whoever, that aren't really grounded. There are people here that have core values even if those aren't trumpeted all over DU every day. And supporting Bradley Manning doesn't by default disallow supporting others or repudiating the system as a corrupt whole.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. You used Jared L. as an example; now you allude to "low-profile" cases? Make up your mind. And start
a thread or two, if you want more attention paid to other cases.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #24
49. I think the difference is that Manning's situation is political.
Political prisoners create a divide in opinion where mistreatment of others is ignored.
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. You speak as if...
...compassion for people who are being mistreated, or outrage directed at such mistreatment, were a zero sum game. But it is not. I don't know why you would assume that, because I wrote about Bradley Manning's situation, and am somehow not as concerned with the many other injustices that occur daily in our criminal justice system; indeed, I share that outrage and indeed have written on a number of those topics in other forums at other times. Nor do I disagree, generally speaking, about the need for some serious, and thorough, gut checking. But my own life experience, as well as 30+ years (my entire adult life) of paying close attention to political and social justice movements in this country, leads me to believe that scatter-shot approaches to reform, where one tries to address, for example, each and every injustice that occurs anywhere and everywhere, are rarely effective in actually bringing to fruition the kind of change and reform those who employ such approaches seek. I find that the most effective use of my voice, as it were, is to put together some (hopefully) well-formulated, focused thoughts about a particular situation, rather than trying to exhaustively address each and every similar situation that may exist.

I have certainly NOT suggested, nor would I ever, that you or anyone else refrain from speaking out about any or all of the other similar injustices (and they are legion) that exist and should be addressed, regardless of whether those experiencing them are more or less "difficult for us to embrace." Nor have I seen or heard anyone else who is currently supporting Bradley Manning make any such suggestion. I think you may be projecting just a tad.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. I'm sorry I haven't been able
to express what I'm trying to say to you more effectively.

I read your OP as calling us to question why not everyone is as vocally outraged by the treatment of Bradley Manning as you and many others are, and pointing out that our Democratic ...idealogy...? (for lack of a better word) really kind of demands that we care about the basic human rights of all people, regardless of which party controls the White House-

You say:
But as Democrats, there is one thing that there should be no disagreement on if we are really being faithful to our party’s historic commitment to civil — and indeed, human — rights: the right of a person accused in either civilian or military courts to be treated fairly and humanely, and to be afforded, at all times prior to conviction or acquittal of the charges, the full presumption of innocence to which he or she is entitled both under the Constitution of the United States and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (“UCMJ”).

I really don't disagree with this- but I can't help but ask where the concern has been for those who aren't as embraceable? That, to me is a much more accurate test of who we really are.

Bradley Manning is a young, vulnerable, compelling individual. I confess to having a hard time believing that the passionate calls for him to be treated better- supposedly NOT because people are supportive of what he is accused of having done- but rather 'on principal'- would be just as strong and forthcoming if instead of Bradley Manning it was Dick Cheney being held under the same conditions. Can you honestly say you'd be fervently defending Cheney's 'rights'?

As far as Pres. Obama's stand on the issue- he said that he was assured that the treatment Mr.Manning was receiving was meeting "the basic standards". Unfortunately, I think that there is room for him to make this statement.
Solitary confinement is not uncommon especially pre-trial. As for being forced to sleep without clothing, sadly- Bradley Manning gave them some grounds to do this when he mentioned (sarcastically) using the elastic on his underwear, or flip-flops to harm himself.

Our penal system- military & civilian- is not what it should be, or claims to be. The presumption of innocence, the right to a speedy trial, the right to be spared cruel and inhumane treatment, all sound good, but are rarely honored.

I don't know if I've made it easier to understand what I've been trying to say.

I agree with you that all people should be treated humanly, fairly, and without prejudice.


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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. You raise some very good and important points....
... especially when you point out that the historical ideological commitments of Democrats, which in my original post I suggested ought to fuel outrage concerning the treatment of Private Manning, should also fuel a much wider outrage over the treatment of most all of the people who get caught up in the criminal justice system. I really can't argue with that one bit.

I guess my reason for calling for specific outrage towards the President on this particular instance has to do with the fact that, since Manning is a military detainee and President Obama is commander in chief of the military, this situation is one the President could correct tomorrow (were he so inclined), by issuing an order to the commandant at Quantico to the effect that the pre-trial confinement provisions of the UCMJ must be followed in both letter and spirit. Addressing the wider abuses you point to, which are certainly no less important, would involve a much more complex undertaking, some of which could be done at the federal level (requiring congressional cooperation), and much that would have to occur at the state level (with the cooperation of governors and state legislatures). Simply ordering the military to adhere more faithfully to its own laws which are already on the books is something he could do immediately. The fact that has willfully chosen not to do so is something that I, personally, find scandalous, and I am rather shocked that there are apparently many Democrats who think that stance is just fine. For my part, I think that, on issues as important as fundamental human rights, it's important to claim whatever low-hanging fruit there is to be found, even as we continue to work for the much-needed systemic reforms through a process that will, definitionally, be much harder, be much more complex and take much longer.

Thank you, this has turned out (for me at least) to be a very stimulating exchange!
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Don't be daft. !. Jared L. murdered; 2. Bernie is a major thief; 3. Who says we have no compassion?
4. You present a completely specious argument, to wit:
That if one does not do "X", it negates the morality of his doing "Y."
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. if the use of solitary confinement is torture-
(particularly prolonged solitary) and there have been many quotes and posts offered in Bradley Manning's defense that claim it is, then it shouldn't matter who is the recipient is. It's torture- it is WRONG, and not something we as Democrats should support or condone.

The OP makes an really good point that it shouldn't matter who is in the White House- that politics shouldn't determine when doing something is acceptable or is heinous. If you hold that people should be considered innocent until proven guilty, how can you judge Loughner guilty before he's stood trial?

:shrug:
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. Very well put.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
30. Has there been a trial for treason?
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. No, Manning hasn't been tried for anything yet.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 09:19 PM by markpkessinger
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Could you clarify? Thanks.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. The culture of fascism is so entrenched in the Defense Department
It really doesn't matter who the politicians are at all.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. Thank you for articulating these essential points
so eloquently. K&R -
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
44. I'm a Bit More Cynical
Obama is just another puppet of the corps that buy the presidency

they want a unitary executive because it's a lot more economical to buy one person than a bunch of people in 3 branches

the bush boy wasn't far off when he said "a dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier"

that's why Manning can't have any judicial rights

that's why the "patriot act" mandates the unitary executive the capacity to declare "enemy combatants" without recourse to the courts.

This isn't about what Obama cares about personally. This is about the power of the executive. Note that Obama has done NOTHING to roll back those un-constitutional powers enacted during the bush boy's regime.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
47. Republicans in the Democratic Party
and the fact that Kool Aid is served all day to Democrats too. I blame the media of course.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
51. the "harm to self" argument is total bullshit.
in inpatient psychiatry, if a person is thought to be suicidal, or actually making statements of suicidal intention, a person is assigned to sit with them to see that they don't hurt themselves. if there is any trouble they call for others to assist. they DO NOT take the clothes or the bedclothes away.

obama=fail=trojan horse for the right.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. I can tell you with absolute certainty
that what you are claiming is bull-shit.

Even in "in patient psychiatry", (which is different than being incarcerated) talking about harming oneself, and specifically naming ways in which you could accomplish the act, WILL result in having those articles removed from your access.

As for having a person assigned to sit with the patient, that may occur in some elite psychiatric institutions, but it is not standard operating procedure.

Whatever your thoughts and feelings about Pres. Obama, you shouldn't need to stretch like this to find a way to criticize him.

:thumbsdown:
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. that's not my experience. and in my state...
...that would be a reportable offense. if you're aware of that happening you should check your state law and report your certainty if applicable. but because i have direct experience behind my statement your certainty is wrong.

and one does not have to stretch to criticize obama.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. I have direct experience behind my statement-
And it is not a single incident, or just one individual.

It is not a 'reportable offense' in this state.

"One" may not have to stretch to criticize Pres. Obama, but you are doing that in this instance, imo.

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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. your opinion is wrong.
but let's say things differ from state to state on treatment of suicidal patients. do you really think Manning's treatment is humane?
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