Public Employees: Myths and Realities

[proud2BlibKansan]

With all the venom directed at public employees these days, it’s hard to separate the facts from the attacks. Here’s a guide to common claims made about government spending, taxes, and public employees.

The Claim: Government employees are overpaid.

The Facts: The Economic Policy Institute measured state and local public workers against their private sector counterparts with the same age, experience, and education. They found that public workers earn about 11 percent less.

Public workers had better benefits on average, but even when health care and retirement were included, public workers were still 4 percent behind private sector counterparts.

Claims that state and local government workers are overpaid often fail to account for their education and experience. Fifty-four percent have at least a four-year college degree, compared to 35 percent in the private sector.

The Claim: The federal deficit is out of control.

more . . . http://www.labornotes.org/2010/12/public-employees-myths-and-realities

[hfojvt]

1. that's still a bad argument

"with the same age, experience and education"

That just says that "hey, they make more money than you do, but they deserve more, ya uneducated slob".

And, of course, people who get good jobs always have more experience than the people who don't get good jobs.

I don't think that necessarily means they DESERVE more money.

You could use the same argument to "prove" that any given CEO is not overpaid. Yes, he/she makes $8 million a year but compared to other CEOs (that is, people with the same age, experience and education (where the average CEO makes $12 million a year)) CEO X is underpaid.

[CreekDog]

3. the government workers regulating complex industries

are paid far less than the counterparts that try to circumvent those regulations.

the regulators (i.e. "government employees) know this. most of them know they could quit the government and consult to tell the companies all they know about loopholes (which can cost taxpayers even more ultimately). a lot of people who remain simply do so out of conscience and a desire to do good rather than have more money.

however these employees still have hard jobs, they still have kids to put through college and so forth and in addition to not at least having their salaries keep pace with the rising cost of their health care (they pay 28% of premiums which don't include dental or vision)...those facts combined with facing the cold hard reality that they have it so good (even though they look across the table and see the counterparts they are regulating)...the best employee is going to be tempted to jump ship sooner rather than later and will get many offers and will be VERY effective and costly for the government to fight.

and who will be forced to stay? those who aren't good enough to attract other offers.

so say what you will...it's completely divorced from reality.

[hfojvt]

7. not every government worker is a regulator

nobody in my office was, nobody in my dad's office was, and neither was my uncle the postman.

So picking one particular category where it is easy to jump ship because of contacts made in the line of work, doesn't really prove anything.

Not only that, but when I quit DOD, I had to sign some sort of non-disclosure agreement, so I am not sure what the mechanics are for jumping ship.

Oh, that poor guy making $50,000 - $70,000 wants to put food on his family and his kids through college. What about the taxpayers making under $50,000 for their whole household. Are they not supposed to look up and think "wish I had that problem"?

[MichiganVote]

9. Aren't they taxpayers too? Are they not the same citizens who take it in the ass

because of the stratospheric levels of corporate and personal greed we are all exposed to nowadays? When people strive to make a better life for themselves, garnered and paid for the education degrees that make them competent in the service jobs they have, slog through heat or snow to deliver your mail,get shot at, fight fires, complete your licensing transactions....why should they be denied a living wage?

It may be understandable for everyone to think, "Wish I had that problem..." but its not rational to blame the nations economic woes on the working man or woman who earns a portion of income greater than your own.

[hfojvt]

11. it's not about the nation's economic woes

it is a simple question of who makes how much money.

I claim that most people do not make as much money as a GS-12. That's it, end of thesis. GS-12s make lots of money. It's quantified even at over $60,000 a year.

I make $13,000 a year at a part-time job. I have 8 years of University education and two degrees - a BA and an MA. So I don't wanna hear any crap about how they deserve their beacoup bucks because of their edjumacation.

I am also kinda lucky. Because I work for the government, I make over $14 an hour and I have benefits. Right now, I am in the middle of a paid vacation which includes 3 paid holidays. Back in 1997 I was a janitor for a bar and I didn't even get a frigging day off. I worked 7 days a week. For $5.50 an hour.

That's the experience I have, and yet some academic wants to do a study to justify good wages for SOME people. See, according to their argument those people with good paying jobs DESERVE their good pay because of their experience. And how do they get that experience? By working at their good paying jobs. Voila! Making lots of money means you deserve to make lots of money.

That's a great argument for the people who make lots of money. For the people who make less money, it reads like "those well paid SOBs think they are better than me."

[CreekDog]

20. the ex-fed regulator can go directly to company X and tell them exactly how to get around rules

they can tell company X which employee might be more likely to give them their way.

they can tell company X what wording makes things approvable and which doesn't.

they can tell them when to submit something so that there is not time for the gov't to prepare documentation to justify disapproving that same thing.

the *rules* you speak of prevent them from being the point person on a project they worked on --doesn't prevent them from being the behind the scenes person and it prevents them from representing an issue they worked on (meaning directly on that project) in a meeting with the government.

but the rules *allow* an incredible amount of behind the scenes work, which is why so many gov't employees can get good consulting gigs for more money than they get while working for the gov't.

and if you think they are jumping to consulting because they feel they are overpaid by the gov't, well, how ridiculous does that sound in light of this?

and NO, not all employees are regulators, but all those regulators, they are covered by the pay freeze some of you are so excited about.

some of those regulators are deciding how hard to fight BP, how hard and how thoroughly to investigate securities issues and financial misdealings. many of them work extremely hard. many of them wonder if it's all worth it. tell them they have it too good, then maybe you can help them decide that it's not worth it and head over to the welcoming arms of the people they regulated.

but you know better...you even mentioned the postal service, which shows you don't know anything about federal pay --and no, i'm not going to explain that one to you because you brought it up and are supposed to know what you are talking about.

[we can do it]

4. How exactly is same age, education and experience a bad argument, exactly?

Getting paid 11% less same age and qualifications.....what ever are you talking about?

:crazy:

[hfojvt]

6. you didn't understand the CEO analogy?

Here it is again then. The median household income is about $50,000 a year. That means 50% of households in this country make more than $50,000 a year.

If I had stayed with the government, I would have been a GS-12 by the age of 27. A GS-12 makes $60,274 at a minimum (in some locations they make more because the cost of living is higher).

Instead, I jumped off of the good job train (losing lots of experience) got a Master's degree and now work as a part-time janitor making about $13,000 a year at age 48.

Now you could look at 30 year old me, who is now a GS-12 step 3 making $64,292 a year and say "holy crap, that guy makes a lot more money than 48 year old me".

But no, the defender of the elite jumps in and defends 30 year old me. He's actually underpaid compared to people with the same age, education and experience. After all, he now has 6 years of experience at his good paying job. Never mind that 48 year old me would have a lot more experience if he could have gotten a good job in the last 18 years, (but alas, once you jump off the good job train, it is hard to get back on). Nah, the experience that 30 year old me got at his good paying job, obviously qualifies him for much higher pay compared to a loser like 48 year old me without all of that experience.

Can you see how insulting that argument is to go up to people making $13,000 and try to convince them that people making $60,000 are not overpaid? Because their education and experience means they DESERVE a good paying job, unlike you, ya low paid loser.

[HelenWheels]

8. I don't understand your argument

Could you please clarify?

[zbdent]

10. I'm not sure he can ...

I mean, his "timeline" appears to jump around with less time continuity than gluing back together shattered DVD copies of the "Back To The Future" trilogy ...

My wife has a degree (in her field) and over 23 years in her field in the government and is NOT a GS-12 (she's a GS-9) ...

[hfojvt]

12. well, thems are the facts

I was hired in Novemnber 1985 as a GS-5 potential 12. I had a BA in math from the University of Minnesota and my job title was Mathematician at Hill AFB. For some reason, when I got my first paycheck I was being paid as a GS-7. Perhaps because my higher grades qualified me for that pay. I didn't complain. Part of the deal was automatic promotions up to GS-12. One per year. Thus, I got my GS-9 in November of 1986 and like an idealistic fool who didn't want to work for the Reagan war machine, gave two weeks notice shortly before my 25th birthday in March 1987.

If I had not done that, presumably I would have gotten my 11 in 1987 and my 12 in 1988 before my 27th birthday.

Because I worked in billing, I know that our department was loaded with GS-12s. My partner, who was hired with me, was also a GS-5 potential 12.

Which is not to say that your wife's story is not true, but I also had a job I started to apply for that was a Statistician for USDA that was GS-5 potential 11. I might have stayed with that job, had I gotten it, but they told me that they planned to move me to California after one year, so I withdrew my name. I think my dad had much more trouble getting his 12 in the USGS, it took him decades and one of his co-workers had a master's degree and was only a 9. But I think 9s make decent money too, particularly with step increases. A GS-9 step 8 makes over $50,000 a year.

[we can do it]

14. Sorry, No I Do Not

how much responsibility does that $13,000 a year person have? Do they go into burning buildings risking their lives for others who they don't know? Do they fix the pipes underground in horrible weather while dodging idiots texting while driving? Are they threatened and beat up while trying to help students and make this a better world? How about getting the electricity back on during an ice storm, or going into the mountains after a hiker lost in a blizzard? How many tests did that $13,000 person take and study for to get that job? Does it really matter if they blow off work cause they were out too late? I am not saying lower paid people don't work hard, but WTF is wrong with this country now where we begrudge other hard working essential employees decent pay? We don't form unions or vote in our best interest, we whine because someone else gets something we don't. Even if its something we never tried to accomplish ourselves.

[hfojvt]

15. puh-lease.

I had nothing like that kind of responsibility in my GS-12 job. Nor did I have to take any tests or study for that job. True, they would not have hired me for it without my university degree, but as near as I could tell from the year I was there, they used nothing, absolutely nothing that I studied in college. In fact, I could have done the job right out of the 9th grade.

Of course, I was a precocious 9th grader.

Now at my current job, it is not unusual to move a ton of tables and chairs in any given week, nor to work from midnight to 4 a.m. Then there was the time I happened to be there for the flood. Already at the end of a nine hour day, I didn't want to bike home in the pouring rain, but instead of just waiting out a downpour, I spent two hours fighting off a flood and bailing water and going out into the lightning trying to unclog storm drains.

Oh, and I just luurrrve that last line. Yes, all the people stuck in low paying jobs are just there because they never tried to accomplish anything themself. Like we wouldn't love more responsibility and training, especially if it came along with much better pay. Although when it comes to responsibility, it often seems to me that managers can pass the buck. If I screw up, I get dumped on. If they screw up, then I have to scramble around trying to cover for their mistake. The building manager forgot to tell me about an event, so I am rushing to get a room set up for somebody. When some drunk drove into the building, it was not management who spent their holiday mopping up the dust - it was the janitors. When there was another flood, who had to spend hours cleaning it up? That's right - the flunkies. My brother works pretty hard as a hotel manager - in the private sector (Once I visited him on his birthday, the only way I got to see him was by going to work with him, tearing down rooms and washing sheets). My bosses in the government - not so much.

You seem to have ignored the part where I said I appreciate my own pay and benefits because I have done janitorial work in the priavte sector for much less pay and non-existent benefits. I think that when people have good paying jobs they ought to look down and see all the less fortunate ones instead of looking up and thinking "it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one" because others are looking up at them and thinking "it looks pretty good from where I sit".

[ejpoeta]

2. thanks for posting this. i get to hear all the time how the state workers get paid so much.

and teachers.... they make so much money and only work 9 months of the year!!! really?? from what i can see i see someone who makes twice what teachers do to start and work even less than that!!

[Drale]

5. Here in Illinois public employees used to have great benefits

but not anymore, the new batch of employees have less that the best.

[Brilliantrocket]

13. Making public employees the enemy is misguided..

This country's problem isn't public employees. It's the growing power of corporations in deciding policy.

[Pholus]

16. Thanks for the OP. EVERYONE works hard. To say otherwise is merely an attempt to divide.

[GoCubsGo]

17. In my town....

...the EMTs make only $20,000/yr. And, some of these rightwing assholes still think they're overpaid. Meanwhile, they're making 4 times that at their job working down the road for a private contractor at the local federal facility. I know one of those EMTs. He used to moonlight as a groundskeeper with my former employer until he got laid off with the rest of us. One of the housekeepers was also a fireman.

[Still a Democrat]

18. The major flaw is that level of employment is not considered

The early year responsibilities for a teacher are basically the same as that of a teacher with 30 years. Generally speaking, an employee in the private sector with 30 years experience will be performing a significantly more responsible and demanding job. You're basically comparing a population of people all still at the beginning level of responsibility to another population that has largely progressed to greater responsibility.

The real problem, as I see it, is the assumption that the years of experience necessarily make one teacher significantly better than another. The best teachers for my children tended to have ten years experience or less. Frankly, the longer tenured ones often seem burned out and less interested and less personable.

Eliminate step increases and make benefits more comparable and then you'd have apples and apples.

[quaker bill]

21. Teachers are a small slice of public service

Secondly, people get raises in the private sector without advancement. I certainly did in every private sector job I ever had. It is not necessarily true that folks in the private sector change jobs or responsibility with increased experience, not everyone with 20 years of experience becomes a manager.

[mopinko]

19. great krugman today about this very thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/24/opinion/24krugman.html?_r=1