Pilots lock down cockpit over praying passengers

[somone]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_praying_passengers

Pilots lock down cockpit over praying passengers

LOS ANGELES – Pilots on an Alaska Airlines flight locked down the cockpit and alerted authorities after three passengers conducted an elaborate orthodox Jewish prayer ritual during their Los Angeles-bound flight.

Airline spokeswoman Bobbie Egan says the crew of Flight 241 from Mexico City became alarmed Sunday after the men began the ritual, which involves tying leather straps and small wooden boxes to the body.

FBI and customs agents, along with police and fire crews, met the plane at the gate at Los Angeles International Airport.

Airport police say two or three men were escorted off the plane, questioned by the FBI, and released. No arrests were made.

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Prayer: More dangerous than boxcutters.

[bobbolink]

2. I thought the story would be about Muslims praying. In that case, there would surely be arrests!

We have definitely past the point of insanity. :(

[pickle juice]

4. Prayer and all that goes with is what made boxcutters dangerous to begin with.

:eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

8. An ironic "Amen!" to that.

[liberalhistorian]

142. No, it isn't. Fanaticism and extremism

are what made the boxcutters dangerous to begin with.

[Boswell]

7. well, it has killed millions

over the centuries...

[Critters2]

45. People praying while wearing tefillin has killed people?!

Geez, I missed that story.

[Boswell]

134. pretending to be obtuse and uninformed

can be funny...sadly you do not seem to be pretending

[FLPanhandle]

14. +1

[AzDar]

93. ...

:loveya:

[Ken Burch]

103. Nice sentiment in the caption...but the picture makes it demagogic

"religion" didn't cause 9/11. Extremism(on BOTH sides) did. There's a huge difference.

[gateley]

44. Love it! And obviously true. nt

[Union Scribe]

97. To fucking morons, yeah.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeSwiss]

5. "...tying leather straps and small wooden boxes to the body."

Phylacteries. They're called phylacteries.



- Sheesh. Are there no more editors with any damned knowledge of anything anymore!!?!?!?!?!? Damn!!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

9. yes because if the sentence read "men with phylacteries on

their foreheads", that would be much clearer.

[DeSwiss]

10. It would have been.....

...accurate. But who gives a shit about that anymore, eh?

[pickle juice]

15. My old girlfriend always bitched at me if I didn't wear one of them things

:silly:

[Arugula Latte]

125. What, you don't like practicing safe prayer?

Selfish.

:P

[pickle juice]

19. It does lend some clarity to the term "dickhead"

:rofl:

[Vinnie From Indy]

29. LOL!

Great sub-thread! Very funny!

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

70. That's funny!

:rofl:

[Bonobo]

11. OMG, Bob Dylan strapped a bomb to his head!

He's gonna blow his mind!

[Sonoman]

25. What do they represent?

The phylacteries, I mean.

I have always thought it would be a pretty cool device in which to hide your stash.

But, seriously, what do they represent?

Thanks,
Sonoman

[Ian David]

27. Tefillin

Tefillin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tefillin (sometimes transliterated as tefilin), (Aramaic תפילין), pronounced /ˈtfɪlɨn/ in Askhenazic pronunciation and English, in Israeli Hebrew, also called phylacteries (pronounced /fɪˈlæktəriːz/, from Ancient Greek phylacterion, form of phylássein, φυλάσσειν meaning "to guard, protect"), are a set of small cubic leather boxes painted black, containing scrolls of parchment inscribed with verses from the Torah, with leather straps dyed black on one side, and worn by observant Jews during weekday morning prayers. Although "tefillin" is technically the plural form (the singular being "tefillah"), it is loosely used as a singular as well.<1> The hand-tefillin, or shel yad, is placed on the upper arm, and the strap wrapped around the arm, hand and fingers; while the head-tefillin, or shel rosh, is placed above the forehead, with the strap going around the head and over the shoulders. The Torah commands that they should be worn to serve as a "sign" and "remembrance" that God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt.

The source texts for tefillin in the Torah are obscure in literal meaning. For example, the following verse from the Shema states: "And you shall bind them as a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes." <2>

The verse does not designate what specifically to “bind upon your arm,” and the definition of totafot is not obvious—the only other appearances of this word are in identical contexts (Ex.13:16 & Deut.11:18). But the authoritative oral tradition (Oral Torah) explains that it is these scriptural passages themselves (including the Shema) that are to be bound to the body in the form of tefillin. It is thus the Oral Torah that provides the details of the construction and application of tefillin.

<snip>

The obligation of tefillin is mentioned four times in the Torah: twice when recalling the The Exodus from Egypt:

And it shall be for a sign for you upon your hand, and for a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand did the Lord bring you out of Egypt.
—Exodus 13:9

And it shall be for a sign upon your hand, and as totafot between your eyes; for with a mighty hand did the Lord bring us forth out of Egypt.
—Exodus 13:16

<snip>

When to wear tefillin

Originally tefillin were worn all day, but not during the night. Nowadays the prevailing custom is to wear them only during the weekday morning service.<14> The problem with wearing them all day is the necessity to remove them when encountering an unclean place, e.g. a bathroom, and the requirement to constantly have in mind the knowledge that they are being worn.<14>

A small minority still follow the practice of wearing tefillin all day long. This custom is mainly found among followers of the Vilna Gaon and the Rambam, and among some Yemenite Jews. Students in some yeshivot, mostly national religious, have been seen with tefillin during the Minha afternoon service or even all day long. They argue that this practice is still required, and not an issue of custom. Other great rabbis, for instance Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, also lay tefillin out of services.

As tefillin are allowed to be worn at any time during the day, Lubavitch hasidim will often be found at all types of religious and secular gatherings and venues hoping to give another Jew the opportunity to put on tefillin. This phenomenon was the wish of Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson who launched the "Tefillin Campaign" just before the outbreak of the Six Day War in 1967.<15>
Shabbat and festivals


More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

Jewish prayers and rituals among the religious are usually very strictly adhered to as far as time of day. Jewish newspapers carry the time of sunrise and sunset, and the proper hours for various observances of the week.

[Sonoman]

35. Thank you, I D. Being raised in a Southern Baptist environment....

doesn't really prepare one for this sort of thing.

I have always been curious as to the purpose of those "tefillin" (is that proper word usage?).

Again, I thank you,
Sonoman

[Ian David]

47. Tefillin is plural, Tefillah is singular.

Even though I was raised Jewish, I think I was like 10 years old before I ever remembered seeing them.

In my synagogue, there was a small group of the very religious who wore them every Saturday morning, and on certain other special services.

Otherwise, we were expected to just wear them a week or two before our Bar Mitzvah, and then they were optional after that. (Technically, wearing them before the bar mitzvah was a violation, but I think they were more concerned that we be prepared to properly use them if/when we chose to).

But as Wikipedia says, there are various groups to whom the tefillin are much, MUCH more central to their practice.

[Ken Burch]

104. Oh, and as the photo of Mr. ZImmerman shows...they're tied to the HEAD. not "the body"

And to one's OWN head at that.

If you read the quote in the OP without knowing that, it sounds like those people were dragging a corpse along with them. If they'd brought a dead guy on the plane, I'd damn sure HOPE the pilots locked down the cabin.

[snooper2]

130. That may be one of the funniest mythical rituals I have ever seen

:rofl:

Dude, your box is all wrong. You haven't been paying attention, I'll fix it for ya!

[Forkboy]

6. We are a frightened flock.

[bobbolink]

65. And we know what fear and ignorance combined create.

[Forkboy]

68. Sigh...yes...we do.

:(

[bobbolink]

71. Hard to even name, isn't ot?

GReat to see you, friend! :pals:

I've really missed you.. thought maybe you weren't speaking to me. :hi:

How ARE you?

[Forkboy]

77. I'm actually doing ok.

Frustrated, but good.

Don't ever take my anti-social behavior as a negative towards you. It's never personal. :hi:

[Dappleganger]

12. why would they feel a need to do this on the plane?

Seems as if it was done for show.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

24. Oh that's good!

Can I borrow that word from you?

[pickle juice]

26. You may indeed! With my...er, blessing.

:D

[HuckleB]

21. This is what I'm wondering about, too. -eom-

[Mosby]

49. It's about timing

There are specific time frames when a Jew can don tifillin, in this case they may have been running out of time Sunday so they put them on during the flight.

[pickle juice]

53. Yet the omniscient god can't seem to figure out how some incantantations might cause

discomfort if exercised at certain times and places? Holy shit, so to speak.

[Critters2]

31. Because it's to be done at certain times of the day.

And it's not that elaborate a "ceremony". It's just tying straps of leather, known as phylacteries, to the arm and forehead and saying a series of prayers. The people who freaked out about this are idiots.

[paparush]

131. Or they've never seen this done.

Ignorance != idiots

[snappyturtle]

33. Amen. nt

[markpkessinger]

54. Your assumption would be incorrect

According to Jewish law, to which Orthodox Jews strive for strict observance, men are obligated to perform public prayer three times daily, and there are specified time ranges within which those prayers must be said. You might want to be a little careful about making assumptions about why certain groups observe certain practices.

[Dappleganger]

69. There are prayer rooms at airports for this.

If they were muslim it wouldn't be tolerated, right? Is the jewish faith that unbending that it doesn't tolerate any change in "the rules?"

And yes, it is for show--if you do it in front of a captive audience who have no choice but to watch, then it's for show. If the people have a choice to move away then no harm, no foul. They could have prayed before or after the flight if they had agreed that it was ok.

BTW, I seriously doubt that God gives a flying hoot that they are exactly on time, as somewhere on the planet their is a time difference.

[markpkessinger]

73. As I said, there are specific windows of time that the prayers are supposed to be completed...

...and if one of those windows happens to fall when they are on the airplane, why shouldn't they go ahead and do it? And who the hell are you to tell people where and when they can or should make their own religious observances?

[Dappleganger]

80. Who the hell am I?

Just someone who prefers to fly in peace, that's who. I also don't pray in public so as not to offend other people, or draw attention to myself.

Why so angry? There is a time and a place for everything, and what they did was not either.

[Stevenmarc]

117. "fly in peace", They aren't putting on a fucking Broadway musical

Living in NYC and flying as I tend to do, this is a fairly common occurrence and not disturbing in the least, it's basically silent prayer with the desire to accessorize.

[snooper2]

132. That could be close to a musical

I'd pay $5 to watch

Maybe have some some folks in the background singing some Danzig...I may be on to something here :)

MOTHER
Tell your children not to hold my hand
Tell your children not to understand
OH Mother!

Father
Do you wanna bang heads with me
Do you wanna feel everything
Oh Father!

[truebrit71]

154. .."with the desire to accessorize..." ROFL!!

Truly brilliant...thanks for that!!

[leftynyc]

118. And I prefer people

who don't drink alcohol because I hate the way it smells. We're both shit out of luck. People can't go a few fuckingn hours without a cocktail?

[blueamy66]

121. yeppers

Please...don't people know what year it is? Don't people know what is going on in the year 2011 in the world?

I was raised Catholic...and am a bit religious...but come on.....get over it...

[RKP5637]

55. I was wondering about that, it seemed ripe for controversy and reaction. n/t

[HuckleB]

95. And all they would have to do is inform the airline and their fellow passengers.

When you fail to communicate, your communication tends to be misinterpreted.

[Skittles]

96. paranoid fuckers

[Ian David]

13. This has happened enough that people should be trained in this shit by now.

Tefillin Panic: Comedian Joel Chasnoff Gets the TSA Treatment

Joel Chasnoff is a stand-up comedian and writer with stage and screen credits in eight countries, and author of the comic memoir The 188th Crybaby Brigade (Simon and Schuster), about his year as a combat soldier in the Israeli Army

More:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/videos/tefillin_panic_comedian_joel_chasnoff_gets_tsa_treatment


New York - Agudath Israel Undertakes Push to Educate TSA About Tefillin

New York - The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has recently undertaken more steps to educate its personnel as to the nature, contents and use of tefillin, adding information about them to briefing materials for security officials across the nation According to a press release issued today by Agudath Israel.

Agudath Israel efforts were undertaken to help better acquaint airline industry personnel with Jewish practices. A special brochure was produced a few months ago by the Orthodox group that described Jewish prayer, rituals and customs, the pamphlet will be distributed to may airlines in the weeks and months ahead.



More:
http://www.vosizneias.com/51871/2010/03/23/new-york-agudath-israel-undertakes-push-to-educate-tsa-about-tefillin/


A Flight Is Diverted by a Prayer Seen as Ominous
US Airways Express Flight 3079, bound for Kentucky, landed in Philadelphia after an attendant reported a passenger who was praying and wearing tefillin.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/nyregion/22airplane.html

Israeli wearing tefillin on NZ ferry causes panic
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=199041&R=R5

[jannyk]

16. Why are we such an ignorant nation? How did it happen? nt

[HuckleB]

22. How does this show ignorance?

[jp11]

36. Through the definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorant

ig·no·rant (gnr-nt)
adj.
1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.

[HuckleB]

38. Thus, you know everything about every belief and culture on the planet, right?

Or are you just FOS?

[jp11]

41. No, I never claimed that, I actually said I am ignorant about this and other things in other posts.

As an example I don't know what FOS means.

[HuckleB]

43. So everyone must know everything about everyone.

:rofl:

[Union Scribe]

101. I know enough not to assume I'm about to die because someone

said something in a foreign language. Lol.

[HuckleB]

123. You're not a pilot who must ensure that people are not going to die.

[jp11]

37. We all can't know everything about everything, it isn't hard to comprehend.

[HarveyDarkey]

79. Why are we such ignorant people

that we must lend any credence or respect to Bronze Age mythologies still followed in the 21st century?

I mean, really, they're tying a wooden box to their head.

[blondeatlast]

18. Because everyone knows that the best place for an elaborate religious ritual

is in coach class of a fully seated 767... :eyes:

Who involved DIDN'T overreact, from the prayers, the pilots, etc?

[snooper2]

133. Thats' pretty damn funny +138

[liberalmuse]

20. Well, to be fair...

...I can see where people praying out loud while strapping stuff to their bodies might be cause for alarm.

[Critters2]

30. Really?! Tying phylacteries to their arms and heads would scare people?

What rock do such people live under?

[kickysnana]

66. Never heard the word phylacteries before I read it here.

And I have never witnessed it. I checked my credit score last night and it proved I never have lived under a rock. Most of my knowledge of other religions comes from movies, documentaries, TV and when I was younger books. Never heard it never witnessed this and that is why I advocate if you are going to do anything besides pray silently in your plane seat you really should let the folks around you know what it is you are doing. It is too bad that this happened but I hope both sides learned something to prevent it in the future because it sucks.

My specialized airplane procedure knowledge falls under how to fly disabled without being physically injured or avoiding being thrown off the plane for attempting not to be physically injured. Not to mention the endless body searches of disabled people by TSA.

[Critters2]

67. This amazes me. I grew up in Iowa, and I know about this.

Really, I just don't understand it.

But, you seem like a reasonable person. Wouldn't you have asked what they were doing, before causing an incident?

[riderinthestorm]

75. But you are a religious person. Aren't you a minister?

If you grew up interested in religion(s), I'd guess you would have paid attention.

I'm an atheist. I've told my daughters I'll take them to any church/synagogue/temple - anywhere they want to go explore "faith" in our world. They are completely uninterested in religion and religious practices. I grew up in an evangelical house so I grew up IMMERSED in religion and know what phylacteries are.

Yet I just asked my 23 yr old, studying for her PhD in the UK in medieval archaeology if she'd ever heard of phylacteries... and she said, "what?" She's not stupid, or even ignorant. She skipped 2 grades, graduated college in 3 years and finished her masters in a year. She's a global traveler. Sorry but not everyone is interested or knowledgeable about religions or more specifically each religion's specific practices.

I will say though, she'd never cause a scene seeing the situation on the plane. And probably would have asked them what they were doing. But if they didn't speak english, or (if they are that devout they may not even have answered a woman's impertinent question) they didn't respond - I'm guessing it's not unreasonable to assume someone may be alarmed at seeing shit getting strapped onto someone's body on an airplane and chanting occurring.

[Control-Z]

78. I would have been afraid of interrupting

something important (because I'm a nice, polite person) that would have then pissed these people off and caused an even bigger incident. The catholic church taught me at a very young age not to question the bizarre rituals of the religious. And the nuns were none too nice about it.

Frankly, I think some things should be done in private. Prayer in confined public places makes me very uncomfortable and infringes on my right to speak and/or move about freely.

[Dappleganger]

82. Your last sentence is what my thinking as well.

It wasn't if those around them had a choice to get up and move away.

[MineralMan]

115. You know, I'm more than a little disturbed by your posts in this

thread. I'm an atheist, but I don't mind if people pray. As it happens, I know about these particular prayer rituals, because my studies that led me to atheism involved careful research into the major religions of this planet.

I also understand that not everyone has been exposed to orthodox Judaism and its rituals. So, had I been on that plane, I'd have explained them to the people near me. Still, such rituals are neither so rare nor so bizarre that flight crews should not be informed of them. It should be part of their training.

Your comments in this thread seem to indicate to me that you have some sort of hostility to people's religious practices. That, rather than prayer, should probably be kept private, in my humble opinion. It's certainly not progressive in nature.

[Ian David]

23. Jews on a Plane.

"I want these muthafuckin Jews off my muthafuckin plane!"

Seriously, though.

It's Air ALASKA.

They really should have thought that maybe the same people who elected Sarah Palin as they're queen governor might not have understood something like this, and maybe should have said something to someone before they strapped-on their tefillin.

[NuclearDem]

120. Oh FFS Alaska Airlines isn't even headquartered in Alaska

It's just an airline that flies there on a regular basis. Only connection it has to Alaska is the name and the fact that it flies to Anchorage. It and its parent company are HQ'd in Seattle.

Did we REALLY have to mention Palin? I mean, REALLY?

[Ian David]

124. You betcha. n/t

[NuclearDem]

126. Well played, sir, well played

:rofl:

[Critters2]

28. O FFS! They freaked out because these people got out their phylacteries and

started davening?! Yeah, scary! :banghead:

[TroglodyteScholar]

74. If you'd never heard of it and never seen it performed...

...you think you would be perfectly comfortable seeing it for the first time while locked in a flying cigar tube with a ton of strangers who also don't understand what the fuck it is?

[Union Scribe]

102. I'd be more afraid of the stupid reactions than the original people.

That much fear in that small a space = I'm takin' the train.

[ThomCat]

107. If you watch it, and it makes you uncomfortable,

that is clearly your own problem.

They are wrapping thin leather straps loosely around their own arm, hand and forehead while praying. That is all.

The straps come out of two small leather boxes, each one about the size of palm of your hand. Once goes on the forehead, one on the back of the hand. They contain prayer scrolls.

So, if you see someone wrapping two very tiny leather boxes onto his forehead and hand with leather straps while he is clearly praying. What in that scenario could possibly be a problem?

Do you really think that there is going to be something dangerous inside those tiny sealed leather boxes? That got past security? And there is enough of it inside those tiny boxes to do anything? And they're putting it on their forehead and hand?

Or is it those leather straps that bother you? Would you have been less freaked out if they modernized and they were now nylon? Or Velcro?

Or what about if the instead of prayer scrolls inside traditional leather boxes they digitized them into a tiny microdot on a flesh colored adhesive patch they put every morning to say their prayers. Would that make you happier?

If so, if it's just because their tradition is so old, so obvious, and hasn't changed in so very long, then ask yourself why you care. Why do you even need to care? Why is it any of your business how they say their morning prayers, or what they look like?

[TroglodyteScholar]

111. There are so many problems with this post that I don't have time to point them all out right now...

...but if every passenger had such a thorough understanding, I'm sure there would be no problem. But you're judging people for getting nervous when someone starts doing some unusual and showy religious shit in a confined space where religious fanaticism has caused violent action on past occasions. Your statement that they got through security, therefore we shouldn't worry...well, does that even really deserve a response at all?

In a world where religion is a fact of life, a bit of common sense on the part of its practitioners could go a long way. But no, let's place all the burden on those of us who aren't superstitious and just want to reach our destination safely.

[ThomCat]

138. This whole incident shows that people just have Different

superstitions, not common sense, as you suppose.

And what makes you think that those people who were praying didn't Also just want to reach their destination safely?

[TroglodyteScholar]

139. Performing a ritual that involves strapping things to yourself (HELLO?) and praying out loud...

...is simply NOT APPROPRIATE on an airplane. Should you be allowed to act like an asshole and do just that? Sure. Should you be all offended when people are bothered by it? No! It's not as though you can go through with such a thing without it EVER occurring to you that you might draw a lot of negative attention.

I'm sure the worshipers wanted to reach their destination safely, too, but unlike EVERYONE ELSE, they felt it necessary to act fucking weird and cause a scene first. It's an immature, inconsiderate way to behave in a situation where people are already on edge. Have. A. Little. Sense.

Edit: typo

[ThomCat]

141. It is no more or less appropriate or offensive than people

wearing obvious scents,
or people who wear any clothing that someone else could consider odd or different or too revealing or too covering or too whatever,
or people who insist on talking to the people who sit next to you,
or people who refuse to talk to the people who sit next to you,
or people who listen to stuff through headsets with the volume so high that everyone nearby can hear a constant noise but can't quite hear what it is,
etc.

There are a hell of a lot of things that you can Choose to find NOT APPROPRIATE. But that's still just You being Judgmental. If it doesn't affect you, it's none of your business, and they have a right to do it.

Not appropriate? Because you think it's unusual? Your type of reasoning is what isn't appropriate. By that reasoning a hell of a lot of people could be banned from flying. It's a very, very short step from staying that "your group's behavior is inappropriate" to saying "you can't board our plane unless you conform and stop looking/acting/being like yourself."

That's what Rights are for, including Freedom of Religion, to protect people who are religion from people who want to tell them that it is inappropriate to be religious.

The only limit on religion should be when anyone tries to mandate it into law and public policy, or when they try to push that religion onto other people against their will, or when it actively causes harm to people. None of which was happening in this case.

[TroglodyteScholar]

145. You're arguing against a point I'm not making, so it's pointless for me to say much more.

I never said they should be banned from acting like assholes. I just said that's what they were doing.

[ThomCat]

146. "Not be allowed" sounds a hell of a lot like "banned"

That WAS your argument.

[TroglodyteScholar]

147. Kindly quote where I said "not be allowed"...

...or ANYTHING even REMOTELY advocating an intervention of the State in these matters. I said this:

"Should you be allowed to act like an asshole and do just that (performing a ritual that involves strapping...)? Sure."

I think you'll find you've been arguing with someone in your imagination.

I admire your passion, but you'll never make an effective argument when you've got your blinders on so tight that you can't even read and comprehend the posts of someone who's responding to you. You'll never change minds when the only voice you're willing to hear is your own.

But I guess maybe it's hard to hear much of anything from all the way up there on your high horse.

[TroglodyteScholar]

148. Apology accepted. n/t

[ThomCat]

150. I notice you went back and edited the post that contained the

offending text. Smooth.

[TroglodyteScholar]

151. Edited for nothing but a typo. I notice you assume the worst because you are in the wrong.

You're rigidly stubborn AND dishonest. Smooth.

[TroglodyteScholar]

152. Also, if you'd bother to look at the time of the edit, it was well before you made your non-argument

You put words in my mouth and CONTINUE your refusal to admit it. I'm sorry your ego is so fragile that you must stoop to outright lying.

[Bonobo]

32. When will it be appropriate to say that America has become a nation

filled with frightened maniacs filled with fear and loathing for each other?

[jp11]

39. The day it was officially a 'nation', back sometime in the past.

[Critters2]

40. Seems appropriate about now, judging both by this story and by this thread. nt

[jp11]

34. I'm ignorant of religious practices and if people started acting as described I'd be put off by it

as well. I think if it was some kid doing something like playing with wires intended to look like he was arming a bomb, or the like he'd have been arrested. But because this was a prayer ritual they were let go. I know nothing of the prayer or if it is 'demanded' at a certain time/day so I can't say that it was a 'stunt' or not. I'd imagine it could have been done before or after because not everyone knows everything about everything and other ignorant people's POV could have been considered.

[Ian David]

50. They were required to do it at a certain time of day.

But IMHO, they should have said something first.

[RKP5637]

60. Very good point! n/t

[Ian David]

63. Then again, if their English wasn't very good, they may not have felt...

... that they would have known how to explain what they wanted to do.

[RKP5637]

64. Hadn't thought of that! n/t

[Rockholm]

114. Maybe they could have flown at a different time?

I would have been freaked out by it.

[Bad Thoughts]

You'd be put off?

I guess anyone doing something funny should be detained, no?

[Vinnie From Indy]

42. If they are gonna be allowed to strap shit to their heads and chant,

I'm breakin' out my ganja and prayin' too! Maybe strangle a few chickens while I wait for some peanuts and a coke.

Cheers!

[HuckleB]

46. You do have a point. -eom-

[Skittles]

98. OMG.....Vinnie......stop......

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

135. Fair's fair! nt

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vinnie From Indy]

61. If they only had some phylacteries!

They could keep their shit and filth firmly stowed without having to use the overhead bins.

[bluerum]

51. It would sure as shinola creep me out too.

[ThomCat]

84. Why? You've never seen Jewis people pray before?

:wtf:

If you know anyone Jewish who is religious enough to say morning prayers every morning then Tefillin certainly shouldn't be all that unfamiliar to you.

:shrug:

Why should any group's morning prayers creep you out, regardless of their religion?

And why should it matter that they use small leather boxes with prayer scrolls inside, or prayer mats, or bells, or incense, or prayer beads, or any other prayer aids? So what?

So long as all they are doing is praying, and their praying is personal, how does that affect you in any possible way? If they aren't making it affect you in any way, why should you go out of your way to make it affect you, and make our attitude in-turn affect them? That's where this become clear cut prejudice.

I'm one of many who shout loudely when anyone tries to push religion into public policy and law, and I've been accused many times of hating religion. But I'll tell you honestly, if someone just wants to pray and practice their own religion within their own life without interference, That's Their Right, and I'll be on their side, defending their right to be religious every time.

I may not agree with their religion. I'm personally an atheist. But freedom of thought, freedom to think and believe without coercion is an important freedom to protect. And even without believing in any supposed factual basis of any religion, the cultural, philosophical, and mythological heritage of religion still has a lot to offer that makes religion worth protecting. Based on all of that, I think you should be on their side too, protecting their freedom to to worship, instead of condemning them because "Gee, It's fun to attack people who pray in a funny way."

[Skittles]

100. DON'T CARE

DON'T WANT TO SEE PEOPLE STRAPPING SHIT ON THEMSELVES AND CHANTING ON A FUCKING PLANE. ENOUGH ALREADY!

[ThomCat]

106. Not caring is a damned good answer.

If you simply don't care that someone else is praying by strapping shit to themselves and chanting then you certainly aren't going to freak out in a sudden episode of xenophobic paranoia and start imagining terrorists everywhere.

Not caring is a Huge Improvement over the attitude of the people who care way too damned much, but only in a hateful way.

My attitude about any religion, any religion, is that I want to get to the point where I don't have to care about it. That is my goal.

If it is only part of their own personal lives, and not mine. Not pushed into the political sphere. That's good. Then I don't have to think about their religion, and they don't have to think about my lack of religion.

Until that happens, as long as religion is being pushed into the public and political sphere, I do have to care about their religion. And, as long as "religion" is used as public short-hand for "whatever it is you think," I care about freedom of religion because that right protects all of us from other forms of coercion regarding what we can or should believe.

[Skittles]

108. I don't care WHAT kind of nonsense people believe

I don't want it in my face and that is exactly where it is in the confined space of a fucking airplane

[leftynyc]

119. I'm sorry that prayer freaks you out

so much. Perhaps the problem is yours. I'd prefer people not drink alcohol on airplanes because the smell makes me sick. Oh well - that's my problem.

[liberalhistorian]

144. My, such tolerance and understanding from someone

who's always demanding it from others. And enough with the fucking cap lock shit already. It got really old about ten thousand posts ago.

[bluerum]

136. Sorry - religious fanatics of any stripe turn me off. On a plane, quadruply so.

[Canuckistanian]

52. Americans never fail to stun me with their ignorance

Surprise me, no.

Did anyone on that plane ever THINK to ask them what they were doing?

[Critters2]

56. What?! Speak to people who seem different?!

:wtf:

[Vinnie From Indy]

57. Yeah, because you Canadians are sooooooo smart!

I could care less if people pray or how they do it.

I guess in Canada, phylacteries are as abundant as hockey pucks. :)

[Canuckistanian]

76. We don't put idiots in charge of important things like flying planes

If this flight crew doesn't face disciplinary action, my original statement stands.

Sorry, I've just about had my limit of stories of unbelievable stupidity from Americans who should either know better or not be in positions of absolute power.

Seriously, the rest of the world is wondering what's happening to America.

[Ian David]

86. This has happened often enough that flight crews should know about this by now. n/t

[Sal Minella]

58. If a person is actively involved in prayer and has a black box tied

around his forehead, I can see why people would not want to interrupt him and say, Excuse me, please sir, but what the hell are you doing?

But then I've known about phylacteries for many decades.

[HuckleB]

72. As if people from other lands are any less ignorant.

I've spent more than a decade of my life outside of the country. Ignorance is not restricted to the US.

[blondeatlast]

87. +1. nt

[zappaman]

89. riiiiiiight

cuz if you asked someone who was up to no good, they would tell you they were up to no good.
making a scene on a plane will get you in trouble.
what is so hard to understand about that?

[October]

127. Finally. Well said.

[October]

128. Finally. Well said.

[kickysnana]

59. New rule. If you are going to do something besides pray silently in your plane seat..

you need to let the folks around you know what you are doing. Educational, respectful and wise.

The powers that be have many of the public scared of their own shadow and you will never get everyone to know all religious rituals.

A little common sense here, please.

[Bonobo]

62. Very well put. I cannot disagree for a minute. nt

[Ian David]

85. What if their English wasn't good enough to convey their intentions beforehand? n/t

[ThomCat]

88. I'm guessing that they figured

that given that the Jewish religion has been one of the worlds major religions for thousands of years now,

given that it is so historically related to Christianity, the dominant religion in this country,

They might think it would be reasonable to expect that most people had probably seen or at least heard about morning prayers with tefillin before. They take things like that for granted.

It's probably hard for them to imagine than the vast majority of people around them are totally ignorant of what they were doing.

They were giving the other passengers credit they didn't deserve, expecting them to have some cross-cultural knowledge and understanding. If they were praying on a plane in Europe they might have been right about the other passengers. But this is the U.S. In general, as a society we don't generally expect people to have cross-cultural knowledge and understanding here. We are more likely to value xenophobia and cultural tunnel-vision here. That comes from the American Exceptionalism we love to use as a weapon against the rest of the world. So in this case, who's fault is that?

[jannyk]

92. +1!!!!

[Confusious]

110. Let me consult my big book of cultures

How many languages are spoken on this planet, with each one having it's own culture? How many different sub-groups of the Jewish religion are there? How many sub groups of Buddhism are there? how many sub groups of Hinduism are there?

I'm sorry, but I think almost all fundamentalist religious people are crazy, I'm sure there are nice ones, but the bad ones are giving out your name. That being said, I don't want to spend the time learning about every sub-group of something I think is crazy.

How about you recite back to me the properties of each and every element from memory. Just about as hard, and I care about it a whole hell of a lot more.

On edit-> I probably would have known they were jewish myself, but I would have no idea what the little ritual was about. I find it just as crazy as the other sect of jewish people around here who don't cut their temple hair, and wear clothes out of the 19th century. The hair thing, the bible. The clothes thing, arbitrary. Or so my reformed jewish friend says. I just say it's crazy. Everyone has different versions of the truth. I thought was god, the all seeing, the infallible, not skitzo.

And so are fundamentalists Christians, fundamentalists Muslims, fundamentalists Hindus, the fundamentalists Buddhists, and ( Other religion here).

[Oak2004]

149. Hint: There are maybe a dozen or two significant religions worldwide

(inclusive of the major sects within the broad religious categories).

The "book" you need to "consult" would be pretty short. Definitely not a "big" book.

And yes, you do have an obligation to inform yourself about the world's cultures, at least if you don't want to be an ignorant ass. That's whether or not you're similar to them. In fact especially if you're not like them. It's called "education".

If this incident had occurred over some bizarre rites of some DIY UFO cult with 30 members worldwide, I'd have some sympathy. But this is Judaism.

I'd only have a little sympathy, though, Because whether its a Jew praying, or some teen belonging to a teen rebellion clique doing some harmless thing the clique does to offend adults, or a passenger opening a copy of some politically unpopular book to read along the way, or a schizophrenic talking to themselves, if it isn't harmful to others, it's nobody's business.

Freedom-- remember what that used to be like?

[Lucky Luciano]

112. LOL. My mother's side of the family us Jewish (100% atheist).

I never ever heard if tefillin of any other phallic crap. I would have thought to myself on that plane, "who the fuck are these incredible morons strapping crap to their heads. Why do I always get stuck next to the wackos and weirdos?!"

[October]

129. Really. Ridiculous condescension on this thread. /nt

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madamesilverspurs]

83. Soooo, now what?

Do we start making policy to accomodate ignorance? Really?

Phylacteries are not an unknown phenomenon. Not even rare. Fairly common, actually, depending on what part of the country you live in.

The scary part is the frightened reaction to something so benign. Kind of gives credence to that saying, If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

---

[kiva]

90. Several people here have said that phylacteries are common,

but it truly depends on where you live. I've lived in the west all of my life - I can tell you a great deal about the Mormon faith, but none of the Jews I have known have discussed this ritual or participated in it in front of me (though in all fairness most of them are non-practicing). I suspect that if you polled people outside of the northeast who have little to no interest in religion, you would find a majority of them had never seen a phylactery.

[HuckleB]

94. The northeast?

Heck, you're talking about small portions of Brooklyn and Queens, at best.

[ThomCat]

99. So? It all depends on how large the Jewish community is

in an area, and which sects of the Jewish community live in the area, and whether or not people have any contact and experience with the Jewish community.

:shrug:

If parts of the country are so homogenized, so almost entirely Christianized that most people can go their entire life without ever knowing someone Jewish or knowing anything about how Jewish people live and pray, should that be an acceptable excuse or justification for making life even more difficult for Jewish people?

If the very rarity and isolation of a minority group makes their customs and traditions seem odd and unusual, is that justification for officially creating regulations that codify prejudices against that minority group?

Because that is exactly what the effect would be. "You're a minority group that we don't like. You have strange ways. We are going to pass laws that outlaw your strange ways just because we think they are strange, so that way we can punish you for being strange, and for being a minority. Oh, but you won't allowed to call it discrimination, and we will insist that it has nothing to do with you being a minority either. We'll claim there is some minor but legitimate public policy reason for passing laws that only affects you."

[Violet_Crumble]

109. The poster yr responding to said nothing about creating regulations...

I suggest you go back and reread their post and respond to what they actually said. I've never seen whatever that religious routine was, but that doesn't automatically put me in a group of people who want to ban everything they're not familiar with. Having said that, if any religious routine on a plane involves more than silent praying to the Big Sky Fairy and encroaches on my personal space, you bet I'm going to call whoever's inflicting their religious crap on me a bunch of idiots. I don't give a shit what religion it is, as they're all equally annoying..

[kiva]

140. I'm not advocating for discrimination,

I was just saying that this general "Of course everyone knows what a tefillin is, obviously people are just prejudiced against this group." is an incorrect, very regional, assumption.

[Bluebear]

91. Aren't cockpits always "loched down" after 9/11?

Of course.

[Union Scribe]

105. Shit like this is why people bend over, literally, in airports

Soon the frightened herds will accept being drugged before each flight. Might as well, there's no intelligence or dignity left in air travel.

[Bad Thoughts]

113. Maybe these Jews had just gone bowling

Remember the ridiculous association between bowling and the shooting at Columbine that Michael Moore used to highlight the culture politics surrounding guns? I am surprised that so many posters are making such a inflammatory associations between prayer and violence in this thread, associations that are little different than those having to do with Rap Music, single mothers, etc.

[treestar]

116. I think this has come up before

Not everyone understands what it is, and that should be taken into account.

[madmom]

122. The high school I went to(in the 70's) had a large Jewish population, and I'd

never heard of this paraphernalia until I read this article. Yes I think it has a great deal to do with which section of the country you live in, like it or not. Not everyone knows every ritual of your or anyone elses religion or worship habits. I would wager I could go out on main street in my town, in the mid west, and find 5-6 people who never heard of this to every 1 that did.

[petronius]

137. I keep reading that as "PAYING" passengers and I think sure, with all the fees they've

been tacking on they ought to be a little nervous about those of us back in the cattle bins... :)

[Mimosa]

143. Dummies don't know anything about Jewish traditions.

Americans are so badly educated. I would be glad they were praying during these days which are looking apocalyptic.

[kiva]

153. Or the dummies may be people who assume that

everyone knows about all religious rituals :shrug: