Posting on DU During A Disaster - Some Thoughts

[MineralMan]

(Disclaimer: Portions of this post come from another thread, but I'm making it into an OP. So, there's no point in telling me that I posted it in that other thread.)

Thinking about Making A DU Post Following A Disaster?

Wild speculation about the effects of a disaster is worthless while a disaster is still unfolding.
Gleeful speculation about the extent of the casualties is simply unconscionable.
Black humor often causes pain in those who are affected.

We all need to step back and think before we post, and ask these questions:

1. Is the information I am about to post factual?
2. Is the information I am about to post current or outdated?
3. Is the source of my information accurate?
4. Has this particular information already been posted more than once?
5. Is my post supposed to be funny, and is that appropriate at this time?
6. Might this post cause pain or distress to someone who is directly or indirectly involved with this incident?
7. DOES THIS POST ADD ANYTHING AT ALL OF VALUE TO THE DISCUSSION OF THE INCIDENT?

Heck...maybe those questions should be asked for any post...

[bobbolink]

1. Thoughtful post. Thank you.

However, it isn't only disasters.

It is ALL pain that some DUers are insensitive about, and hurt others.

Time to do some soul-searching about basic values.

[MineralMan]

10. Yes...hence my final line.

[bobbolink]

23. A suggestion, and one I shared with Skinner.

Back in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, we took building community seriously. Unfortunately, we didn't have the resources then that are available today, but we LISTENED, and worked together.

Then along came things like Non Violence training, with people like Joan Baez teaching people how to respond and handle conflict.

Those resources still exist, its just that many don't think they need it, and don't want to be bothered.

There are also books on how to LISTEN, and those hold much promise if groups, like DU, are willing to avail themselves of them.

One I strongly suggest is called The Good Listener, by James E. Sullivan.

Well-written, easily understandable, and consise.

It is there, if people want to try to improve.

Otherwise, we are often reacting in the same ways as the teabaggers who we say we despise.

[NuclearDem]

38. I don't see how dark humor here compares to how the assholes on the right are reacting

We're not saying that this is revenge for Pearl Harbor, and we're not racially insensitive against the Japanese.

I mean, otherwise, I agree with you, this just seems to be one of those magical FEs.

[bobbolink]

42. I was actually hoping for a reply to the content of what I said.

Which was, that there are resources we could avail ourselves of in order to be more peaceful people.

Could you please reply to that?

Thank you.

[Hannah Bell]

2. kr

[FSogol]

3. K & R. It is very strange to see the glee in some people's posts dicussing nuclear meltdowns.

Very disturbing. :shrug:

[FBaggins]

4. Thanks MM. k&r

Though #3 is going to be close to impossible in this environment. The news sources are all over the place and a fair number of posters don't trust the ultimate sources.

[jannyk]

5. I wuv you - marry me,

Your list is a work of art - I wish for it.

[MineralMan]

6. I'm pretty sure my wife would object, but I can check...

:rofl:

[jannyk]

26. I just checked with my husband

he said it's ok - as long as I leave the credit cards and take the cats. :bounce:

[MineralMan]

60. My wife says it's OK, as long as you do the laundry.

:rofl:

[Renew Deal]

7. Black humor is often a coping mechanism.

It doesn't mean that the joker isn't horrified by the events.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. Is posting that black humor where suffering people can read them a necessary part? nt

[Renew Deal]

27. How do you define suffering people?

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. If you post it on the internet, you're going out of your way to find them. n/t

[MineralMan]

9. Yes, but it needn't always be shared in public.

Consideration of the feelings of others is a progressive value, I believe. The lack of that consideration is not. Not every response to a disaster is worthy of public expression. At least that's what I was taught by my parents many decades ago.

One does not say, "Hey, gimpy? How's it going?" It's just not done.

[Renew Deal]

30. I'm pretty sure we got some wires crossed here.

Because I have no idea what you're talking about. People make jokes, even in bad times to lighten the mood. There's usually nothing wrong with that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. People make jokes *with friends whose involvement and mood they know*

and for whom, they therefore judge, mood-lightening is appropriate. Posting on DU, you're saying it to every DUer - including those still worried about friends and family, for instance, in the case of Japan, if they are still missing, or downwind from the nuclear plants.

[Renew Deal]

47. DUers are friends too.

I find the faux outrage over jokes more offensive than some of the jokes themselves.

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. You know the mood and involvement of perhaps 10,000 active DUers?

No, obviously you don't. We all have very little actual idea of the background of most DUers. The jokes may be appropriate for you, depending on your involvement with Japan and/or your liking of black humour, but you shouldn't assume that all DUers are just like you. And you shouldn't assume the 'outrage' is 'faux'. For many people, it's 'pain' or 'distate' rather than 'outrage'; and I doubt you know any of the people who express those reactions well enough to be able to call them 'faux'.

[LanternWaste]

52. I imagine that depends on the emotional response of those who hear it...

"There's usually nothing wrong with that..."
I imagine that depends on the emotional response of those who hear it more often than not.

Although I do recognize that many people feel as though their own cleverness is something that should be advertised (posting) and then rationalized (coping mechanism), it's far too often simply an act of self-validating hubris justified after the fact to avoid a loss of face.

[Junkdrawer]

11. Only posts belittling Anti-Nuclear activists are appropriate....

Got it chief...

[MineralMan]

15. Actually, no. I am an anti-nuclear activist, and have been one

since I spent hundreds of hours working against and protesting the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant near my California home.

I consider nuclear power plants to be unsafe, both in the short term and the long term, and believe all of them should be decommissioned. So, I'm not saying any such thing. Thanks for your reply, but you are incorrect in your interpretation of my post.

[MadHound]

12. People react in different ways to different events,

I think that we should leave it up to the mods and admins to determine what is appropriate or not. After all, chances are that a certain small group of people are going to have trouble with any particular post, on any particular day. That is, after all, why we have hide threads. I don't think that we should be trying to pre-emptively censor people.

[bobbolink]

14. And the teabaggers are reacting in THEIR way to stress, too.

[MadHound]

18. And that has what to do with what I said?

If some teabagger wants to bring his garbage over here, it would get promptly deleted by the mods, and rightfully so.

However people here do have a right to post, share information, engage in speculation, and even, to a certain extent, black humor. Trying to shut that kind of discussion down in order to spare the feelings of a few is censorship, and not appropriate for DU.

[bobbolink]

25. What does it have to do? EXCUSES.

They think it is alright to hurt people in order to relieve their stress, and you do, too.

Same/same.

[MadHound]

35. Ah, so speaking about what I know, speaking with an experience few here have,

I'm now seeking to hurt people:rofl:

Sorry that knowledge hurts you, sorry that having actual experience in a nuclear plant and the nuclear industry hurts you. But just because it hurts you doesn't make it any less valid.

[bobbolink]

36. Smoke screen, and you know it.

Clearly, this is war for you. Have at it.

Some of us would rather have sensitivity, compassion, civility and PEACE.

Go fight....MAD hound

[MadHound]

37. Ahh, so my experience in the field is a smoke screen?

Tells me all I need to know about your agenda in this matter.

[bobbolink]

39. Most people understand there is a difference between intellectual knowledge

and a psychological need to dominate others.

Left brain vs right brain.

Different processes, hence Smoke Screen.

[MadHound]

41. Project much?

You are apparently trying to shut down discussion, based on what, your own opinion?

I'm trying to broaden discussion based on my own experience.

Says a lot about you and your motivations in this issue, not much of it good.

[bobbolink]

43. Projection. *I'm* trying to dominate you... Right. Thank you for the perfect illustration.

[MineralMan]

16. As you know, I'm in no position to censor anyone on DU.

I have no power here. I can, however, post suggestions, and do so from time to time. Like all my other posts here that are not simply statements of facts, my suggestions represent my opinion. You may look at my signature line, if you wish.

Since I cannot censor anyone on DU, I obviously am leaving that up to the moderators and administrators. Suggestions are not censorship. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my thread.

[MadHound]

20. As you say, you are posting suggestions,

Suggestions that we self censor, suggestions that we don't discuss certain things, suggestions that we don't engage in speculation, suggestions that we watch what we say.

Suggestions for censorship.

[MineralMan]

22. Indeed, you are correct. Self-censorship is just another way

of saying thoughtfulness in posting. I self-censor often before posting on DU. I am doing so at this very moment.

[MadHound]

24. No, you and I both know you're going beyond "thoughtfulness"

Though you are being thoughtful in how you word your rather harsh sentiments, your rather limiting wishes.

[bobbolink]

29. This is the divide... often between generations. In general, older people were brought up with

some sense of boundaries, and when not to cross them.

Younger people seem to believe that whatever they think should come out of their mouths, without any attempt to moderate it, and call that "Free Speech"

In many ways, this is more of a divide than between left and right, blue and red.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NuclearDem]

40. Those damn kids and their free speech

They're going to grow up without empathy and respect for your fellow man, dammit

[bobbolink]

45. Actually, in your disdainful reply, you are getting close to the truth.

You see, in your obvious belittlement of me, what you fail to get is that *I* was a participant in the original Free Speech Movement. Yes, I am that much of a geezer, and I was in Berkeley, and spent a lot of time at Peoples' Park, the rallies and demonstrations, etc.

So, I don't take kindly to disparagement that I don't know what I'm talking about.

We not only believed in Free Speech, we lived it... we FOUGHT for it.

AND, we also believed in PEACE and FOUGHT for that. We took PEACE seriously, and that meant that we honored and respected the boundaries of others, just as we expected them to respect and honor OUR boundaries.

In practice, that meant we didn't belittle others for their experience, we didn't try to relieve our own anxiety by saying hurtful things to others, and if we did so inadvertently, rather than defend our actions, we had the grace to apologize.

That is FREE SPEECH AND PEACE.

They Can and DO go together.

[NuclearDem]

48. Yes, free speech and peace can go together

The young liberals that are out in the streets demanding better healthcare for all, raising money and awareness for people suffering around the world, and striving for an end to war are probably the same ones who like to laugh at jokes about Katrina, Chernobyl, war, and other sensitive topics. We don't do it because we're heartless, we do it because life sucks and we just need to laugh sometimes.

Our actions speak much louder than the jokes we laugh at. I can laugh at jokes about the homeless, but if that makes me a heartless person, I guess my hours down at the soup kitchen and with Habitat mean nothing.

It's like I said, I don't disagree with you about building a better world, I just don't think telling people they can't laugh isn't going to help. We laugh at the GOP here on a regular basis...

[bobbolink]

54. If you have the sensitivity to other people that is necessary for PEACE, but then do what hurts othe

then, yes, that is heartless.

I recognize that this generation doesn't like to deal with such truths, but that is how it is.

And how you are SEEN.

[NuclearDem]

55. My actions speak louder than words

I'm SEEN feeding the homeless. I'm SEEN sheltering them. I'm SEEN giving money to the sick. I'm SEEN giving a crying shoulder to my fellow veterans. I'm SEEN feeding and sheltering abused animals.

I'm also seen making jokes and laughing among friends. I'm sorry if you think jokes trump good works, or if you think that my heart really isn't in the right place when push comes to shove, but it's just not true.

[bobbolink]

63. This generation want to believe that words don't hurt.

They do, and contribute to tearing down PEACE.

It is useless to argue it... just suffice it to say that others who don't share your view are very upset to be subjected to this insensitivity, and are speaking about it.

You insist that doesn't bother you, so that shows the lack of connection, No Matter what the actions are.

You are in the process of reaping.....

You say that words don't matter, yet I'm guessing you will have the last word... have at it.

[NuclearDem]

66. No, insisting that there's a divide between generations is tearing down peace

Belittling an entire generation for the words of the loudest idiots on the internet and television is tearing down peace just as badly. I'm summoning every last bit of my restraint to not launch into a tirade against you.

Look, do you think a homeless person gives a damn what someone says about him behind closed doors, as long as that person is one of the volunteers putting food on his plate and working to put a roof over his head? I give a damn about peace and community, which is why I recognize the barrier between jokes and actions.

I laugh, and the others in my generation who care about peace laugh, because we know that our actions are going to bring about a society where this evil shit is something we'll look back on and laugh at. War, homelessness, poverty, disease, animal abuse, and hate will one day just be a bad joke on how we used to be. We let ourselves laugh because we know our hearts are in the right place.

So yeah, I am in the process of reaping--reaping a better tomorrow. This generational divide doesn't exist--it's just something made up by others who are faced with exactly what went on during their youths that they didn't have the internet to see.

[bobbolink]

67. YES!! ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY!!

"Look, do you think a homeless person gives a damn what someone says about him behind closed doors, as long as that person is one of the volunteers putting food on his plate and working to put a roof over his head?"

[NuclearDem]

72. Ah, and I see the rest of my post has been selectively ignored

Kids can suck, and kids will rebel and act in ways adults don't like, but it doesn't mean the younger generation is completely lacking in empathy.

Seriously, soup kitchens. Habitat builds. Animal shelters. Lots of teenagers and college kids give a damn. While you're hung up on words, I can tell by their actions that they DO care.

Look, I'm telling you as someone included in this group you're disparaging, that, despite some loud idiots on the internet, we CARE. We care in spite of this "those damn kids and their low-riding pants" meme. The internet can make a lot of people look like idiots, but what people say on the internet doesn't always reflect how they are in the real world.

[bobbolink]

75. Being homeless myself, I focused on one point... yet you don't hear it.

Do as you wish.

What you described about homeless people IS hurtful, and the fact that you dismiss is does say it all.

In fact, that very thing, laughing at and disdaining homeless people while "serving" them is the very reason so many will NOT go to shelters or any other "help" agency.

People on the outside claim it is because we "don't like the rules." While that may be true of a few, for the rest of us, we REFUSE to be treated in the way you describe. We ARE humans, and we demand to be treated as such. You have a need to laugh and disparage? Take it among yourselves.

Deal with it.

[NuclearDem]

80. Alright, that restraint I talked about? I'm about to lose it all

I've been homeless. I have PTSD. I was suicidal not three months ago. I've been unemployed since December.

If you think for a minute that I have an ounce of hate in my heart when I tell a joke or I laugh, you're mistaken. Badly. Maybe it's because I'm young and I know how other young people like me work, but I have a very strong feeling they don't have that hate either. It might seem like that on the outside, but people who say that completely ignore what we DO. It's not popular to work at the Humane Society, it's not popular to work at the soup kitchen. But you know what? We do it anyway. Because we give a damn.

And seeing the plight of the sick, the homeless, and abused animals, we have to laugh to keep our sanity and to keep us from crying.

[bobbolink]

82. IF that is actually true, then you should know better.

This is going nowhere, and I don't care to hear anymore justifications for your dumping on others who are hurting.

Good luck to you, and I hope somehow there can be more sensitivity. this is really pathetic.

Bye... have fun with the last demeaning word...

[NuclearDem]

83. Have fun with your bigoted view of young people...

Also quite pathetic.

[uppityperson]

58. Did you know Thomas Jefferson? I am in awe, didn't know you were that old.

[fishwax]

68. I think your posts here disparage young people, and unfairly so

based on my rather extensive experience working with younger folk.

[bobbolink]

69. It *is* a generational thing, and if you want to blame me, have at it.

If you actually listen to older people, you will hear this repeated over and over and over.

You can then blame older people for voicing what they see, or you can look to the younger generation and what many of them need to learn.

[fishwax]

71. blame you for what?

All I said was that I think your posts are disparaging to young people, and based on my extensive experience with them, they are not actually lacking empathy.

I do listen to "older people"--some agree with what you've said and some don't. I don't them (or you) for voicing what they (you) see, but I do occasionally think they (like anybody else) doesn't see the full picture. And so when I have a different impression--when I see something different than what they see--I, too, voice what I see. In my experience, that can lead to a greater understanding for all.

[bobbolink]

73. Yes, you blamed it on ME. It IS a generational thing, if you are willing to listen to OTHERS.

I have always had friends older than me, and now my friends in their 80s are saying, "I'm glad I'm at the end of my life, because I don't want to live in a world controlled by so many of the younger people I see."

MY generation got dissed because we liked Elvis and the Beatles and then protested, etc.

But nobody was saying they didn't want to live on the same planet as us.

Think about it or not.....Its up to you. And that is exactly what is at issue here... the willingness to think and hear....

[NuclearDem]

77. Nobody?

You mean you were aware of the opinion of every American of the age bracket you're discussing, in an age before Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, and 24-hour cable news? Because I'm almost certain there would've been people who wanted to see you sent to Hell for listening to rock and roll, or struck down dead for the Summer of Love. When change comes, people get scared, and they lash out at the people who are embracing the change without looking objectively at the whole situation.

My generation's getting dissed because people watch Jersey Shore or some idiot says something on Twitter and it goes viral. There's moral panic over unwed teenage mothers. The loud, vocal idiots among my generation are NOT representative of the whole, not by a longshot.

It's NOT a generational thing, it happens every time society moves along and young people exist. This "those damn kids" meme goes all the way back to Plato.

[bobbolink]

84. If I or others of my generation would now say just that, what we would get back is laughter

and "stop feeling sorry for yourself", "pity-party", etc.

I stand by what I said.

[fishwax]

81. *what* did I blame on you?

I, too, have always had friends older than me. I've also, since my early twenties, had friends younger than me. I try to expand my circle of interaction as broadly as possible.

MY generation got dissed because we liked Elvis and the Beatles and then protested, etc.

But nobody was saying they didn't want to live on the same planet as us.

bobbolink, there were not only people who were leery of what your generation would do when it took over the world, there were people who wanted to see your generation wiped out before they even got the chance. There were people who celebrated when your leaders were killed and there were people who--even to this day--think that violent attacks on your generation at Kent State, Jackson State, and so on were justified.

Think about it or not.....Its up to you. And that is exactly what is at issue here... the willingness to think and hear....

The willingness to think and hear is a good thing for everyone to engage in.

I will now respectfully refer back to something you said earlier, in the post I initially responded to, because I think it is an invaluable tactic if people are actually to build understanding: "In practice, that meant we didn't belittle others for their experience, we didn't try to relieve our own anxiety by saying hurtful things to others, and if we did so inadvertently, rather than defend our actions, we had the grace to apologize."

[OhioChick]

79. I wholeheartedly agree n/t

[MineralMan]

85. You know nothing about me, to be quite frank.

I wish you'd stop making statements about what I intend. You cannot know what I intend. I write what I intend, and that is all I intend. To make assumptions about my intentions or motivations is quite beyond your competence.

[uppityperson]

56. Suggestions we consider others and we try to be kind is "censoring"? Huh

I stand with the OP, it doesn't hurt to consider others feelings, esp those who are closely and emotionally involved. It doesn't hurt to be considerate. It doesn't hurt to refrain from posting rumors and checking to make sure what you post is factual.

If that means self censorship, I have no problem with that.

[MadHound]

59. No, suggesting that we only post fact based pieces, when no such pieces actually exist

Is censoring. Essentially the OP wants no speculation whatsoever about what is going on in Japan, when all that we've got, on both sides, is speculation. The only people who know all the facts about what is happening in those plants are the ones who are currently inside those plants fighting to save them.

[uppityperson]

62. I see this list as much more than "only fact based pieces".

1. Is the information I am about to post factual?
2. Is the information I am about to post current or outdated?
3. Is the source of my information accurate?
4. Has this particular information already been posted more than once?
5. Is my post supposed to be funny, and is that appropriate at this time?
6. Might this post cause pain or distress to someone who is directly or indirectly involved with this incident?
7. DOES THIS POST ADD ANYTHING AT ALL OF VALUE TO THE DISCUSSION OF THE INCIDENT

[Cetacea]

28. Correct.

n/t

[Renew Deal]

31. You're right

Of course.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

17. .

[Upton]

19. Actually, I find the end of the world hysteria

that permeates this place rather humorous. You make some good points though. Recommend.

[Buzz Clik]

21. Additional thought: If you are watching television with you fingers on the keyboard....

... try to avoid blurting your reactions while starting a new thread. Thread titles like, "Did you hear that?" with messages consisting only of, "That was awful!" are totally useless.

[LynneSin]

32. #8) Have I googled snopes.com to ensure it's not a fake

nuff said

[Kali]

34. hell you could apply those to daily chit chat at the feed store

but what fun is life without idiotic conspiracy and speculation? :rofl:

[nolabear]

49. Thanks. I've been staying away for just that reason.

Not just from DU, but from most comment-driven media until today. This and many situations are so terrible that I can' find words that are sorrowful enough and respectful enough to convey real feeling. I don't want to read or hear it ground up with the sausage of modern politics right now; people are dying and mourning and wondering if their loved ones are alive.

So, thanks. I appreciate the OP.

And let's all be glad for what we've got and try to be of help to those who are suffering any loss.

[Zorra]

50. "Imagination is more important than intelligence"

That is something Albert Einstein said.

I agree with much of your post, except for the wild speculation part.

You never know who will imagine what may become true, and today's wild speculation may be tomorrow's reality. IMO, wild speculation should not be discouraged no matter how goofy it seems, unless the speculation will cause distress to anyone that is not a certifiable PC drama queen.

Posting factually about a nuclear disaster is not always possible, because there is so much that is undiscovered about the subject. These are relatively uncharted waters.

[Baclava]

53. Nice thought. Will anyone remember this when hurricane season starts?

nah

[MineralMan]

87. I will remember it. I have never been anything but concerned and

sympathetic during a disaster. I am always humbled when people are going through things I cannot even imagine, no matter how hard I try.

[leeroysphitz]

57. dupe

[Whisp]

61. thank you. I am sick of some people who giggle at this all

and think they know it all and we 'kiddies' should shut up and learn from the masters.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

64. Excellent post.

Too often people on the internet don't stop to think of how their words may hurt/impact others. Especially during times of a disaster.

[MineralMan]

65. Thanks to everyone for their comments.

I have to shift to a writing project, so I won't be back in the thread until later this afternoon.

[fishwax]

70. I think there is a place for wild speculation and even a bit of panic as a coping mechanism

That's part of the process by which many people process a disaster, whether at the local diner, around the office water cooler, or on DU.

Plenty of problems arise, of course, when people who are actually looking for solid information (some of whom may be prone to panic themselves) engage or rely on such conversations/threads. Then, too, there are people who delight in making other people think the sky really is falling.

[grahamhgreen]

74. And wait until the disaster is over before you declare nuclear power is safe.

[jp11]

76. I generally agree with what you post but the fact remains

everyone is at risk of being 'hurt or distressed by something directly/indirectly' about just about anything at anytime. We can't know and not everyone wants to advertise whatever pain/tragedy they are going through.

Seems like the best solution is to stop posting anything ever which isn't a solution.

[Cetacea]

78. apology

For anyone who was offended by my earlier post. To Mineralman: Despite our poor history here and my own belief that DU shines during disasters, you didn't deserve to be called out like that and I am sorry. Trying to edit it away was a poor attempt at an apology.
C

[MineralMan]

86. OK.

[donheld]

88. Heck...maybe those questions should be asked for any post...

Indeed. Not just disaster posts. ANY post.

[Rex]

89. You take something personal and take it out on DU.

Whatever. :eyes: