Is Obama so toxic that

[boston bean]

him standing with and speaking with and acting out with the Wisconsin unions and people will make their cause fail?

That's what I seem to be reading in a round about way...

BTW, I don't believe he is that toxic.

[vi5]

1. No, probably the opposite....

He's concerned that appearing too close to Unions will be toxic and make the Richard Cohen's and David Brook's say something mean about him.

[rucky]

2. Not toxic, but he would draw attacks from the right

and not fight back.

[Poboy]

22. That sums it up. Although he may be popular, he won't fight back.

Obama loyalists claim Obama enjoys high popularity. The argument goes that although he is popular, by supporting WI. unions, he will somehow make a popular protest unpopular.
Two positive equal a negative.


The real answer though is above. He will NOT fight, doesn't want to fight, and will never 'fight' ...for anything.
Despite his oratory skills, he will not fight verbally, nor attempt anything substantive.

He is not the one we've been waiting for.

[ingac70]

3. It's best he stays out of the way....

there are racist some Repukes in the public employees unions and we don't need them distracted from the real problem.

[TheWraith]

55. Actually, the problem is that it would shift the topic.

For the Republicans it would become about opposing something because Obama is for it, which WOULD harm the efforts to stop this by solidifying support behind them and making sure that none of the Rep State Senators could change their minds.

[tomg]

4. If he stood with the people,

he would have fewer problems and so would we. While I have respect for him for a number of things he has done, this is class warfare and he is still acting like he is a referee at a basketball game.

edit: typo

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. He's never taken a strong leadership position before.

Taking one here and now would not only be out of character, but would make people wonder why now. Certainly not out of any conviction. He's proven many times not to have any, except a misguided love of compromise above all else. Certainly not because of his love for labor. He won't even send his labor secretary to Wisconsin or Ohio. Certainly not because he loves standing up to intransigent Republicans. He defuses them all too well by agreeing to their every demand. (see generally, Health care, the public option, and Big Pharma)

While his successes are notable, and he is a far, far better president than W, he has taken triangulation to heart to a degree I never thought possible. Perhaps that is what pisses off the GOP so often and so deeply. They can't stand the idea that he accepts their suggestions and adopts their ideas. Clinton had the same effect on them on welfare and financial deregulation. No wonder the GOP sputters around Obama.

Some here might think it is strong criticism of President Obama. It is not. To the contrary, I admire his strength in doing what he does. I just don't always agree with what he is doing. For example, last night, as news of Japan's Reactor #2 blowing up came out, he had the guts to get on TV and strongly support new nuclear power plants in America. That is one brave stance that I could not find myself taking.

[tomg]

19. You are right as to your comment

"taking one here and now. . . why now." I actually meant my post as more of a general principle. As to his constant triangulation and compromise, I don't know if they are brave, simple expediency, brilliant strategy or what. In fact, I think at this stage he should not be in it, not because he is toxic ( I don't believe he is), but because when I see what is happening in Wisconsin ( my wife is a union rep in upstate NY and this has energized them) this could be a catalyst for something well beyond Wisconsin. Incidentally, unless I am misreading you, you have a wonderfully dry wit.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

27. The Sahara is my friend.

Seriously, I am very heartened by the people in Wisconsin and other states. Their reaction, finally, is what we should have seen in 2002 and 2004. It would have saved many lives, and trillions of dollars.

[polmaven]

13. So even though

the Union heads and the WI14 would prefer that he not be too deeply involved, because of various issues (- not, btw, including being too "toxic" - just the opposite, actually -) and think he has has done the right things, he should just ignore all that, because people here know better than they do?

Hmm, interesting. I thought it was ABOUT the Unions and the WI14. My mistake, I guess.

[tomg]

25. I actually meant my post

as more of a general principle. I should have been clearer. In fact, I do not think he is toxic (and nothing in my post suggests I think so), and at this stage I agree it is probably best that he does not inject himself into the debate.

Incidentally, I am very aware of how it is about the right of public employee unions to collectively bargain ( and more generally workers' right). My wife is a union rep and has been for years - and one whose school district is being eviscerated by layoffs. I am a teacher who does not have the legal right to collective bargaining and has negotiated faculty contracts under those conditions( thanks to the Yeshiva decision). In fact many in my family are union or union connected in one way of another.

[kristopher]

5. IT is a states rights trip wire for their extended base.

The "base" I consider to be the 28% that approved of GWB in September 2008. The extended base is the demographic that got him elected.

People support the unions and that can work against the Rs when the attack them in the manner they did instead of with their usual stealth, but if that is set against a plea that Washington is telling the states what they can and can't do, it would peel off some of the support for labor IMO.

[Demeter]

6. More Likely He'd Sabotage the Movement

because if he shows support for workers, he loses the only thing supporting his ambitions to power and money now: Wall St, Big Health and the Nuclears.

[HereSince1628]

7. 'Our' moderate brethren seem ok with barbecuing Sacred Cows

Social Security, Medicare, Labor Rights...

All being served this spring.

I think I liked the party's menu mo'betta before dems went on this high protein Atkins diet.

[xchrom]

8. glad some one else sees this. nt

[luckyleftyme2]

12. I don't think he's half as toxic as

I don't think he's half as toxic as the koch brothers are as they are exposed more and more about their financial implications have influenced elections.
their candidates like scott Walker are facing possible recall. More and more of us are seeing how money buys votes!

[readmoreoften]

34. +1

[leftstreet]

47. +1

[Warren Stupidity]

10. The failure of this administration to use its "bully pulpit"

to advocate for Hope and Change and to support working families against the frontal assault from the right is beyond comprehension at this point. Obama did not actually have to go to Madison, he needed to stand up and speak out clearly from Washington.

He has no fight in him. Too bad for us.

[Davis_X_Machina]

11. "Fail' is an exaggeration...

..."Would not help" is accurate.

If you want this issue permanently reduced to just another battle in the GOP v. Obama wars, by all means.

The workers aren't the same thing as the union.
The union isn't the same thing as the party.
The party isn't the same thing as the party leadership.
The party leadership isn't the same thing as the president.

They have overlapping interests, not identical ones.

How many people in that crowd of 100,000 Saturday didn't vote for Obama?

How much larger would it have been if he were there?

If the followers lead, the leaders will follow.

[JoePhilly]

14. Toxic? Only for some on DU and everyone at FreeRepublic. nt

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quaker bill]

15. It is not unusual for 100,000 people to show up

when he is there. It is far more impressive for 100,000 folks to show up when he isn't there. Of course, when 100,000 folks did show up at his speeches, the right wing said it was all because of the rock star opening acts. Best to have neither, it gives them fewer avenues for denial.

[Erose999]

17. He would stand up there and call for "compromise". Even though the Unions already tried

"compromise" and had conceded to all the demands that the state house asked from them like contributing more to their healthcare and pensions. No, Obama would be up there saying they needed to give up even more.

Never underestimate the power of Obama to work against his Democratic/Progressive base.

[elocs]

18. Evidently there are those DUers who cannot grasp that here in WI most did not want Obama to come

during the protests not because he is toxic but because it would distract from the issue at hand and the debate would then be about him. I am certain that Obama and his advisors are smart enough to realize that. I'm sure the Republicans here would have loved to see Obama show up in Madison.

This is a people's protest here, a people's movement. It was a result of a state law, state policies, and Obama is clearly the head of the executive federal branch of government. He was correct to stay away at this time.

In all the comments any of us have read concerning Obama and his coming or not coming to Wisconsin how many have been by people who live here in Wisconsin and wanted him to come. We appreciate the support from others but the notion that people from other states know our business better than we do is not appreciated.

[boston bean]

20. So, he is too distracting.

The debate would be all about him.

Sounds toxic to me.

However, I disagree. He could be more confrontational when principle he supports are being abused.

[Poboy]

26. I agree, bean. I guarantee if they knew he would fight and be a strong advocate,

they would want him 'fighting' for them. The deal is, I think they tacitly know that he wouldn't.

[elocs]

30. It has nothing to do with being toxic. It has to do with this being a state issue and not a federal

issue. As I said, I'm sure the Republicans here in Wisconsin would have loved to see Obama come here because then they could have turned the debate away from unions and workers rights toward all things Obama and it would have united them. We don't want that.

I notice you are not from Wisconsin, so perhaps you might like to pay attention to what we want here. After all, if there were an issue or circumstance where people of Massachusetts generally did not want Obama to come there how would you like it if people from Wisconsin advised you on what they thought would be best for your state?

Again, Obama and his people are smart enough to know when it is best to stay away, advice from DUers notwithstanding.

[Poboy]

31. Well, the other side is certainly making it a national issue.

They will have a nationally coordinated propaganda campaign, and we will have disjointed. fragmented defensive responses.
Not a very good strategy, imo.

[elocs]

48. They would make a national issue of it if he did show up.

The difference is that his presence here in Wisconsin would have been a distraction and the debate would have become all about Obama. He was smart enough not to come and smart enough to realize that the people here did not want him to come at this time.

[Poboy]

50. I will simply repeat. They (the Rs) are ALREADY making it a national issue.

[elocs]

51. BFD, they were anyway. The point is that the consensus among those protesting including

the 14 senators that fled is that we didn't want Obama to come here at this time. He was smart enough to stay away despite what any DUer say.

[Myrina]

21. +100

Thank you.

[Bandit]

23. If Obama truly cared about core Democratic principles he would have at the very least said something

If not put on comfortable shoes and march with the people.. He does not care one whit..How much more obvious does he have to be?

[readmoreoften]

33. +1

[Motown_Johnny]

44. he has been making statements in support of unions

please pay attention to what you are commenting on.

[Ganja Ninja]

24. No He's just not that important.

I don't think the Wisconsin protesters want or need him. They've already compromised.

[GTurck]

28. It is not...

that he is toxic but there are better ways for him to respond. Wisconsin is a symptom and symbol of larger issues and Obama SHOULD be using his bully pulpit on those which will also help Wisconsinites.
There is a thought among the GOP elite that they can save THEIR America by destroying ours. That is what the president needs to make an issue of.

[TBF]

29. Not toxic, just a distraction that isn't needed. nt

[readmoreoften]

32. I'm for him going only because he would never go anyway.

He's a con artist and master of the ambiguous and his followers will use his non-attendance to prove his support. Classic "appeal to ignorance" fallacy.

[Scurrilous]

35. other: crap poll. n/t

[rasputin1952]

36. It is not his place to get involved in a state issue...

Why people think that the president has to get involved in everything is incredible. Not just PO, but any president should not get involved in issues that are not Federal in nature.

Wisconsinites are doing a fine job on their own, the last thing they need is interference on a state issue from a president, any president.

I believe that at least 4 of the R's involved in a recall will be recalled, and Walker will go down in January. The president has nothing to do with any of this.

In all honesty, this is an issue where people should just take a deep breath and watch the good people of Wisconsin take care of these clowns. Helping with funding the cause and going there will be an advantage for citizens all over the country that feel so moved, but for any Federal official to get involved at this point would be a serious problem.

edited: stupid typo's...:blush:

[treestar]

37. Reasonable people disagree about whether that it a good idea to do

You're assuming your own opinions are valid fact.

Obama does not agree with you about how to conduct the Presidency. Since he ran and won, he gets to use his ideas rather than yours. See how that works?

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. No. Quite the reverse.

Obama thinks that labor unions and progressives are so toxic that we'll make his cause fail.

[Rex]

39. No, they are afraid it will become ALL ABOUT HIM and hurt the movement.

Yet, oddly enough, these same people love and respect his every word/command and only have that strange viewpoint when it comes to Wisconsin.

[undeterred]

40. Our State Senators are strong Democrats

who acted like strong Demorats. Next to them Obama looks weak. When our Senators came home people ran to them and hugged them and cried because they were so grateful. Nobody feels that way towards Obama. He hasn't done any thing to elicit more than a polite wave from Wisconsin.

[Motown_Johnny]

41. It might not cause it to fail but it would make things more difficult

because he has no direct power over a state issue. He can do little other than energize people one way or the other and our side is already energized.

Odds are he would draw more people to the fight on the opposing side and elevate Walker in the eyes of the public. POTUS should not be punching down and Walker is defiantly beneath him.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. But, he does speak up and support nukes.

Unions, workers, the poor, not so much.

[phleshdef]

43. Just as toxic as any Democratic President would be in this situation.

And its not speaking out that would have been toxic. He did speak out on it a little. Its going down there into a tension heavy situation, costing tax payers a shit load for extra security measures (because of the tense nature) to give a big speech and hold a big rally and make it another Obama moment. Thats what some were calling on him to do and thats exactly what he avoided doing. Right now, the pro-union coalition thats been built in Wisconsin is probably the most bi-partisan thing we've seen in awhile in terms of the protestors and people supporting them.

[genna]

45. Other --- I like to know how he has credibility when he pulled Democratic leader away from WI

If he stood with workers on the end, he is a typical politician coming after the work was finished celebrating the victory.

If he was too busy for the work, managing the nation's business, the best he can do now is say
way' to go from the sidelines.


If he is waiting to see which way the wind is blowing, his lack of courage has already been duly noted.

[Rex]

46. That is why I said he needed to roll into town and greet the farmers

driving tractors as they showed up. Now, too late. Don't go Obama, you had your chance now it will look bad.

[joeybee12]

49. I don't know if he's toxic, but if he did, he'd be criticized, and he has no backbone

so he'd back down, and that would have made matters worse.

[Imagevision]

52. Obama is like Bush the difference is he uses intelligence to get over (huge disappointment)

[Poboy]

54. Slicker than Willy.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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