War in Libya, talk me down

[Very_Boring_Name]

I was against it a month ago when it looked like the rebels would win for sure, but at this point I just don't know. Something needs to be done about that asshole. What are some reasons not to invade?

[Poll_Blind]

1. Well France can invade. Italy can invade. But we can't afford it.

PB

[derby378]

3. The French Foreign Legion could use a little practice

I think they could take Qaddafi down if the rebels can't.

[marmar]

2. How many more military debacles in the Middle East will it take to convince you?

nt

[Very_Boring_Name]

4. So we should let innocent people get slaughtered?

[Posteritatis]

8. The consensus these days seems to be "yes," sadly. (nt)

[marmar]

10. That is such bullshit.

[Posteritatis]

14. Yep, it is, and it's present in nearly every discussion of this. (nt)

[marmar]

9. An invasion is going to kill a lot more of those innocent people.....

..... there are ways to oust Qadafi without an invasion.

[arcane1]

5. Reason 1: Iraq, reason 2: Afghanistan

[Very_Boring_Name]

12. Both of those wars we started

This is a crazed dictator carpet bombing civilians in an attempt to hold power.

[peace frog]

21. You mean Saddam?

Oh,,,right. So sorry, I had a Commander Codpiece flashback.

[JVS]

36. I have news for you. Pick your 8 favorite would leaders.

Ok, now picture this. They are facing an attempt to overthrow their governments. If any of them thought carpet bombing was necessary and would enable them to preserve their governments, they'd do it.

[Posteritatis]

6. Isolationism, more or less

Also there's lots of people who believe keeping the Libyan air force grounded is exactly the same as razing Fallujah (the idea that it's possible to intervene without a fullscale invasion is too subtle for many to grasp), and there's a few idiots who are explicitly pro-Qadaffi around here, though fortunately only a few. There's also a lot of people who just Do Not Get how international interventions work; see everyone who says something hopelessly ignorant like "if the US won't do it then the UN can!"

I am having a hard time shaking the impression that the general consensus is a desire for Qadaffi to win here, though. Or at least it's hard not to read that through the pile of "I suppose it's sad, but I really don't care if they die" posts.

[Agent William]

20. +1

[Modern_Matthew]

25. There's nothing wrong with it. nt

[tabatha]

7. I am just hoping that enough people defect

that Gaddafi sees that there is no point in staying.

[Shagbark Hickory]

11. Geez. Where do I begin?

Oh I know.

[Ozymanithrax]

13. So how many people is it OK for us to kill in this war?

Even a no fly zone will lead to death. We go in, detect antiaircraft radar and bomb them. We bonb airfields. War is not steril, it is a matter of physics. There will be explosions, and people will die.

So, what is the appropreat number of deaths, military and civilian. Once you determine a level of death, that is necessary to fulfill out goals, you ask the next question.

Do the rebels want our help?

Would a no fly zone work for them, or do they need more help, say an invasion?

[abelenkpe]

15. Military strained?

I don't know really. Troubling though for sure.

[white_wolf]

16. I have mixed feelings on Libya.

Gaddafi needs to fall no doubt about it. However I'm worried about what will happen once the revolution is over. The rebel forces are using the flag of the old monarchy that ruled before Gaddafi took power so I'm worried if they plan to restore the monarchy instead of a democratic government.

[Old and In the Way]

17. The UN ought to put a hit out on Gaddafi.

One well placed sniper bullet should take care of it. A surgical, low cost solution that spares the collateral damages of war. Hmmm, maybe this is the solution for all would-be dictators that decide to kill civilians to maintain power. Put a million dollar bounty on his head...maybe that will provide incentive for leaders to behave repsonsibly. Might be a very good power for the UN to have. As long as their are more democracies than dictatorships, I guess.

[CommonSensePLZ]

24. I get the feeling, but he needs to stand trial like any criminal.

imo

[Old and In the Way]

27. Yeah, like Saddam.

Tell me that wasn't a show trial. Did we really get any useful information from that? Nope...I'd say rulers of countries are different from the rest of us. If the world documents atrocities against a regime...take a vote and if a majority agrees, take 'em out. Can't be done unilaterally by a single nation and I think a serious debate to air the facts ought to happen. But if the world governing body agrees, give 'em an ultimatum. Get done or take a 50 cal. sniper bullet to the noggin.

I don't think it would take too many votes and subsequent hits before ruthless dictators get the message and start moderating their ruling behaviour.

Had this happened with Saddam...Iraq might be a totally different country today, rather than the wasted product of a Bush engineered 'freedom war'. He'd still be dead, but hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and 5000+ american soldiers would still be alive.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Yes, yet another western invasion will generate fuither generations of hate

Intervention needs to be done by the Arab League with full logistical support from western nations. They have the tools and with western support can be successful.

[Cleita]

19. I think it will be up to the UN to send in forces.

Some of them might be us but we really can't do it without their authority after the mess Bush/Cheney has made in Asia Minor.

[Posteritatis]

23. And who needs to agree before the UN can send in forces?

China and Russia will veto any intervention in Libya, and the US will veto any intervention (and most Chapter 6 operations as well) in the entire continent.

[Cleita]

26. I know it's not promising but it seems the only

politically feasible way. Another way would be for countries close to Libya to help the revolutionaries with weapons and air power to level the playing field. They should have a vested interest in getting rid of Ghaddafi to maintain security in North Africa.

[CommonSensePLZ]

22. Saif might be worse

I hope the rebels, formerly protesters, continue to push till they get what they need: Freedom, because there's no turning back for them now. We know how strictly Gaddafi is to hold power, but Saif's narcissism enrages me. The gall to say he'd rather kill hundreds of thousands, maybe even EVERYONE in Libya just because his possible chance to take the throne when his dad kicks the bucket might be threatened and he can't continue his comfy, cozy, rich dictator's kid's life - That is NOT someone who deserves to be king or whatever they call the ruler of Libya.

I have read that one of Gaddafi's kids has defected from the family. If that's true and he's not just being a double-agent it's good news.

[former9thward]

28. If the Arab League wants to invade so be it.

Most of the arab countries have armies standing around doing nothing so they can spare the men. We don't and should not.

[David__77]

29. Because it's immoral.

It's not a boxing match. Just because some "asshole" may win is not a reason to endanger US lives and expend US scarce resources on such an endeavor. There are many, many assholes in charge of countries all over the world - many with a lot of blood on their hands. But is it the US responsibility to implement regime change in all of those countries? I think this is not the US' responsibility.

[joshcryer]

32. NFZ does no such thing.

[Alamuti Lotus]

39. How does getting into an active war zone not involve everything David_77 mentioned (and more)?

[Nye Bevan]

30. Let's bribe Gaddafi instead.

Give him $50 million to leave Libya, we pay some small country to take him, and allow him live out the rest of his days there, with some henchmen to protect him. Sucks that he would get away with everything he has done but would be worth it to avoid war.

[Alamuti Lotus]

31. if you also want to invade Saudi Arabia, Israel, Bahrain, Kuwait, Jordan, Yemen, Algeria

as well as Russia, India, China, etc.. all are up to the same behavior. Some have the backing of the right people and it's shoved under the carpet, some don't--Col.Qadhdhafi didn't spend enough on public relations, so he's getting the shaft by folks largely doing the same stuff, or worse.

Who would invade? Britain or the rest of NATO, which bombs children in Afghanistan? Russia, which murdered 250,000 people in Chechnya? China? The "Arab League"--other autocrats committing the very same massacres right now? The US???--the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan alone exceed 100 times Col. Qadhadhafi's brutal activities, to say nothing of the support for the usurping entity's siege and regular assaults on Gaza and occupation of other Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian lands.

There's a lot of assholes, and many of them are condemning the dictator in Libya now. Not to say what is said isn't true, or that he shouldn't swing from a street-lamp; but there's no shortage of assholes..most of which seek to profit from events, not "fix" them.

[joshcryer]

33. You don't invade because they ASKED US NOT TO. All they have ever asked for is a NFZ.

No fly zone.

[Alamuti Lotus]

35. ..and to take out the tanks and rockets, and assassinate Qadhdhafi, and send weapons, etc..

[joshcryer]

38. Nope. NTC has only asked for NFZ, no air strikes, no weapons, etc.

You can't take what one or two rebble rousers say and just do it. Teabaggers say we should nuke China, that does not necessarily mean that Americans want to nuke China!

[Alamuti Lotus]

41. for an anarchist, you're very coy and/or naive about state power..I can't get over that

Back to the current subject... I know you read this thread (1/6th of the replies are yours, so it's a fair assumption that you're more familiar with what I was referencing)--

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4771022#4771126

Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

Libya's revolutionary leadership is pressing western powers to assassinate Muammar Gaddafi and launch military strikes against his forces to protect rebel-held cities from the threat of bloody assault.

Mustafa Gheriani, spokesman for the revolutionary national council in its stronghold of Benghazi, said the appeal was to be made by a delegation meeting the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, and the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, in Paris on Monday, as G8 foreign ministers gathered there to consider whether to back French and British calls for a no-fly zone over Libya.

"We are telling the west we want a no-fly zone, we want tactical strikes against those tanks and rockets that are being used against us and we want a strike against Gaddafi's compound," said Gheriani. "This is the message from our delegation in Europe."

Asked if that meant that the revolutionary council wanted the west to assassinate Gaddafi, Gheriani replied: "Why not? If he dies, nobody will shed a tear."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/14/libyan-rebel-leaders-gaddafi-benghazi

[applegrove]

34. I would like to see a no fly zone. Someone has to help the rebels.

[Distant Observer]

37. Do we KNOW ANYTHING about libya?? Certainly not from news coverage

that is only concerned about the current show.

Looks like an African civil war based on internal geographic and perhaps tribal divisions.
There are a few of them ongoing.
Sound like something the French would like to get into. Not Obama.

[backscatter712]

40. This is one of the reasons why the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were a bad idea.

It destroyed our credibility and our ability to act in situations like Libya where military force could otherwise be a legitimate option to deal with a humanitarian crisis. If it weren't for Iraq and Afghanistan, we could be splashing Gadaffi's MiGs right now instead of begging for a UN resolution.