Toon- Good point on Collective Bargaining

[n2doc]

Good to see Kirk back in action....

[liberal N proud]

1. Good one

[notesdev]

2. I don't like this "dictator" meme

For a couple of reasons.

First, it makes light of the plight of people who live under actual dictators, like the people presently being shelled by Col. Qadafi's forces in Libya.

More importantly, though, it's a dangerous form of denial. Fact: Scott Walker is the elected governor of Wisconsin. We lost in 2010 across the board, maybe people don't want to recognize or deal with that, but it's the facts and the situation won't get better until we confront and correct the problems that caused us to lose, starting with piss-poor party leadership and the lack of any coherent guiding principles other than simply to advance the various interests of the motley collection of often-conflicting interest groups that this party has devolved into.

I'll put forth a starting point: Take financial fraud seriously as a party and make stopping it a major reason to vote Democrat - the people are tired of getting ripped off and squeezed from every direction, from banks playing games with their mortgages to a grossly manipulated stock market, down to the petty level of cops ticketing people for bullshit not because they did anything wrong but because the local gov wants more revenues. In other words, become the party of the little guy again.

[malaise]

3. Every dictator in the MIddle East or

North Africa is using Western aircraft and weapons. Not one of them could survive without Western help. They are Western-backed dictators in the main.
Further most of them have been bribed by Western politicians and corporations and we both know Western politicians work on behalf of said corporations.

[nebenaube]

4. I think it applies.

I live here in Wisconsin and this asshole came out and told us "pass this or I send out the Guard" when we knew he created the crisis. We're not blind up here.

[notesdev]

5. It doesn't

It's an elected, unified opposition government (as we're going to get on the federal level as well in 2012 if we don't cut out the bullshit in a big way and fast). No matter how much we don't like it, the fact of an election makes the government legitimate in a way that a dictatorship is not.

This "dictator" thing is a childish tantrum and only serves to avoid confronting the reasons we lost in 2010. We need to set a standard for maturity and seriousness if we are going to become a winning party again.

[readmoreoften]

19. So Hitler wasn't elected?

[pacalo]

23. I agree that it applies. Collective bargaining equals democracy. Walker's one-party, dictatorial

rule is antithetical to democracy.

[Chris_Texas]

8. Nicely said.

[jeff47]

9. Well, to hurry up and Godwin this sub-thread....

"Fact: Scott Walker is the elected governor of Wisconsin."

Hitler was elected. Does that mean he wasn't a dictator?

[notesdev]

10. Not initially

But go ahead and read up on how he made the transition to dictator; it strongly bolsters my argument that we need to have cooler heads prevail, and, rather than lashing out in anger, deal seriously with the issues at hand.

[jeff47]

11. So if a democratically-elected individual behaves in a dictatorial manner

What, exactly, should we say about it?

The guy was threatening to call out the military unless he got his way. But of course we wouldn't want to offend anyone's sensibilities by calling such behavior "dictatorial". That might send someone to the fainting couch.

Fact is there is a war on. They are fighting against you. We can either stand around clutching our pearls, or we can fight back. I'll take option "b" for now. We can return to "civility" once the situation is no longer so dire.

[RC]

12. +100,000,000 or so.

[notesdev]

14. Then you intend

to follow exactly the path of Hitler's opponents?

They never got the chance to return to civility once they abandoned it.

This is America. We elect our leaders. If you want policies you agree with, then win the elections. That's how it works here, and trust me, you will be very very unhappy if that changes, far more unhappy than you are now.

[jeff47]

15. No, that would be your plan

Hitler's opponents didn't oppose him aggressively until it was too late. They were concerned with their institutions, that the people duly elected him, and so on. So instead of opposing him, they said "well, the people picked him. We have do do what he says".

"If you want policies you agree with, then win the elections."

And you can not do that in our current climate by being a milquetoast.

The options are not 1) be polite or 2) open, violent revolt. There is a ton of room between #1 and #2. And in that space includes calling out wanna-be dictators as wanna-be dictators. That's a tool for winning the next election.

And since you completely ignored it, I will ask you again: What, exactly, is the appropriate response to a democratically-elected leader who is behaving like a dictator?

[notesdev]

16. The wise strategy right now

is to cut losses not multiply them.

Going hardcore balls-to-the-wall in an environment where the GOP controls the executive and has solid control of both chambers of the legislature is a prescription for blowback.

The proper strategy right now is:

1) buy time until the election
2) maintain as much input into the process as possible until then
3) actually win the next election, at least one chamber of the legislature, so we'll be in a position to do something other than just complain in the future.

[jeff47]

17. So your plan is to hope that they stop being as evil.

Yeah, that works so well.

Here's a better plan, and the one that's actually happening: Massive pro-union protests that completely change the debate in WI, destroy Walker's popularity in the state, and are leading towards recall elections that will likely flip the state senate back to the Democrats. They also stall anti-union measures in several other states, and greatly galvanize the base so that you have people working for you for the next election.

But I'm sure a polite but firm letter would work just as well. We all know how much voters prefer polite but firm letters. Heck, the massive Democratic victories in 2010, where polite but firm was our semi-official campaign strategy demonstrates the incredible wisdom of this approach.

[notesdev]

18. Yeah let me know how that works out for you

We'll have to agree to disagree here, I see you are set in your opinion. I won't expect a mea culpa as this terrible strategy continues to blow up in your face, along with the rest of the folks who still have zero clue as to why we lost so badly, and so broadly, in 2010.

[jeff47]

21. Continues to blow up in our face?

You seriously think the WI protests made the situation worse?

Btw, you still haven't come up with the appropriate response to an elected leader who's acting dictatorially.

[notesdev]

22. Oh absolutely it has made things worse

Sun Tzu would be horrified.

Collective bargaining is now dead by law in Wisconsin, AND the same thing is now underway in at least a half-dozen other states.

I told you the appropriate response several times now: face up to the reasons we lost in 2010 and win the next election, and in the meantime practice damage control.

[jeff47]

24. So...absolutely not in-tune with this "reality" thing, huh?

Without the protests, collective bargaining would be dead by law. The state senate was all set to pass it when the 14 democrats left the state and the protests started. Meaning the result you cite is moot - protests or no, the law passes.

So if the only reason you give for them being 'bad' is something that would happen anyway, what's your real reason for thinking they're bad? Democratic base too fired up?

"face up to the reasons we lost in 2010 and win the next election"

And to re-godwin the thread, that doesn't work so well when there isn't a next election.

In a less severe environment, your polite acquiescence strategy is fantastic for demoralizing your supporters. Thus guaranteeing you can not win the next election.

[readmoreoften]

20. +100000

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. Let me pick that reasoning and go elsewhere with it.

If you say Hugo Chávez is a dictator, you can't deny that Walker is one.

(FWIW, I think "wannabe dictator" is more appropriate for Walker.)

[Blue_Tires]

6. ttt

[mstinamotorcity]

7. That is how

it feels and looks. Damn if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck!

[moondust]

13. Democracy in the workplace.

Another democratic idea is "participative management" but I haven't heard a thing about that in a decade or two. It makes sense to give people at all levels a voice in management in order to get input from all perspectives. I'm not sure but I think that's what Germany does and they are doing very well.