Just curious. When do YOU think it becomes......................

[socialist_n_TN]

a matter of self defense for workers, RE: fighting back? I would put up some kind of poll, but I'm more interested in responses.

I've said for a while now that it isn't class warfare until we start fighting back. Until then it's a class massacre (as in the working/middle CLASSES are massacred). So will ANYTHING get the average American Idol watcher to understand this and begin to fight back? Do you think there's anything that will be a tipping point? Or will we all, as a country, just slide numbly into Third World status without a fight?

Just curious as to what to look for.

[notesdev]

1. next year

when the NFL is locked out due to contract dispute, there will be lots of idle testosterone ready for some action.

[socialist_n_TN]

7. This might actually be a factor................

I don't know if it will be a big factor though. It will probably have a "precursor" type effect.

[TBF]

2. Third world status - I think we're pretty close

The abolition of social security will be a defining factor. I predict folks will "fight back" by voting out Obama in 2012 (not out on a very long limb there, huh)... not sure what it will take to get folks out protesting in the streets though.

[socialist_n_TN]

6. I've thought that messing with social security..........

might do it, but that only effects the older population and fighting back usually involves younger people.

I also agree about Obama not being reelected. I figure what that will do is usher in a Republican president to go along with a Republican Congress that will fuck things up SO bad that THEN we'll have some reaction. Of course that means it will get a LOT worse before it gets ANY better.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. You know, I was in a lot of peace demonstrations in the last decade.

I was also in a lot of peace demonstrations in the 60's and 70's. By and large, it's the same bunch of us from 'way back then who were out in the last one. A local group of progressives is forming, and most of us are pretty long in the tooth. Most of the progressive activists I know are also over 55 and maybe mostly over 60. I think the geezer contingent is overrepresented among today's activists.

[socialist_n_TN]

15. I wonder about that too. What will fire up............

younger people? That's what needs to happen and they're THERE with their positions on the issues. They're just not that motivated to ACTIVELY support those positions in the streets. As a post downthread said, it's probably going to be something that effects EVERYBODY like runaway inflation on energy and food. Or maybe a Republican president and Congress reinstituting the draft.

[TBF]

20. The draft might do it - you're right that it is the young people

who protest. Look at the news from Europe and it's very young faces in those pictures. Same thing if you research the civil rights movement here.

[socialist_n_TN]

24. And the antiwar movement of the 60s..........

When you have skin in the game with the risk of losing that skin, THAT'S when you see the streets fill up.

I don't think that it's totally out of the question for a draft to be reinstituted too. These wars of Empire and Capital go through a lot of cannon fodder and the volunteer force is already stretched thin.

[Jackpine Radical]

26. Reptilians won't re-institute the draft.

They're the ones who eliminated it in the first place. Draftee armies are just too hard to manage when you're fighting pre-emptive wars for the glory of the Empire. They don't need a draft. They only need to keep unemployment high & reserve opportunities for education to the wealthy. That will complete the return to the Gilded Age. Think raccoon coats, Scott Fitzgerald, rich little fratboys, and the Gentlemen's "C."

[socialist_n_TN]

28. Well as I said at some point, they MIGHT have to...........

reinstitute the draft. Apparently the current situation is stretched VERY thin.

What else would get younger people involved? Anything other than the general food and fuel shortages and costs?

[bvar22]

30. Thats true PLUS....

There is MUCH MORE PROFIT using Privatized Armies to do our fighting.
That, and less (zero) accountability to the Public, is just what the Republicrats want.

[Silent3]

3. I'm sure there's a degree of pain that will break through...

...to the distracted and apathetic masses, but there's absolutely no guarantee that their anger would be productively directed. My reading of the American mind leads me to believe the most likely and most energetic uprising would be a right wing uprising, making things far worse than they are, not far better.

[socialist_n_TN]

9. A RW uprising is a GOOD possiblility IMO, UNLESS...........

Obama loses in '12 (that's becoming more and more likely I think), then you'll HAVE a RW administration AND probably a RW Congress. This would blunt SOMEWHAT the pressure for a RIGHT wing uprising.

It WILL leave open the possibility of forging some sort of worker's coalition between the left and the DISAFFECTED right. You know that a Romney presidency and a Republican Congress will kowtow ONLY to the elites and that might not set well with the Teabagger/Ron Paul set. There would be an opportunity to join with some of that anger and point it at the direction it needs to be pointed at.

[chimpymustgo]

37. That scenario seems quite plausible.

[Lucky 13]

4. I think right now we're all individuals with our heads down.

People are viewing this on an INDIVIDUAL basis. It's hard for ME to find a job. They've frozen MY wages for 2 years. MY social security might get cut. I can't make MY mortgage payment.

I think everyone is walking around with their heads down, just trying to get by. We've been told that Americans pull themselves up by their boot straps. If we work harder, we'll make it. So many Americans have internalized things to feel it's their own fault.

It'll take something big for people to lift their heads up and look around and see that we have become serfs and the politicians and corporations are our evil masters. Only then will you see an outcry or uprising. I think we're nearly there. I thought this tax breaks for the rich thing might do it. I though the bail out of corporations and executive bonuses might do it. But apparently it will take more than that. I just don't know how much more.

[snagglepuss]

5. "Passivity dulls feeling" I don't recall where I read that but I think it explains

why many zone out in front of the Idol.

[FirstLight]

8. energy and food prices inflating

remember when gas went up to like $5 a gallon...? we were pretty riled up then.

food prices are increasing too, and food stamps recipients are up drastically. Cuts to thsoe programs and higher prices will cause seriuos backlash.

you can only keep the masses numbed out in front of the tv for so long...

[socialist_n_TN]

10. Yep. Something that hits EVERYBODY.......

like energy and food. Probably the best answer so far.

[lunatica]

11. What exactly do you mean by fight back

Going out and storming the castle is a ridiculous tactic. Marching in the streets for one day is ignored, as it should be. People have to care deeply to put themselves on the line, and our government has made sure that we get enough to keep us compliant. They lie to us knowing full well we'll believe them and they keep us entertained with the privatized media messages of how great this country is, and loaded with advertising the shiny baubles that keep us so mesmerized.

Where I work I'm the only person there who knows what's going on. My workmates aren't stupid. They're just not interested in politics and to them this country looks exactly the same as it always has. If I tell them what's going on their eyes glaze over and I can see them thinking I'm just a nut. Sure they know the economy is bad, but they also feel it won't last and they've all got a job and can pay their bills. It's not their problem.

[socialist_n_TN]

13. Fighting back could involve a LOT of things..........

from the worst imaginings of an apocalyptic revolutionary scenario, to long term general strikes, mortgage strikes, payment strikes, street demonstrations, etc.

In general, to me it would involve ANYTHING involving a large enough percentage of the average American public that got the attention of the PTB and caused them to stop the wholesale slide into Third World status for the U.S. BECAUSE OF FEAR FOR THEIR OWN LOSS OF STATUS.

Like the 30s. The only reason we got the reforms to capitalism that we're now losing is because the capitalists realized that WITHOUT those reforms, the whole house of cards was in danger of falling to a socialist revolution.

[tavalon]

14. Stop buying anything but necessities

Boycott malls. Only shop in second hand stores - for everything. Create Co-ops and bartering systems. Starve the corporate beast any way we can.

[T Wolf]

16. Great advice, but Amerikans are too adicted to the new shiny crap pushed in those malls.

It is going to take drastic and severe discomfort in a significant portion of the population to bring about the changes that are so desperately needed.

[socialist_n_TN]

18. So T, what kind of discomfort are we talking about?..........

Any ideas about that end of it?

[T Wolf]

33. Major! Depression-like. Masses in the streets - not protesting but simply trying to survive.

My father told me many times about seeing "grown men, selling apples in the street just to make pennies to feed their families" and the impact that had on his life. He grew up in the Depression, fought in WWII and had a moderately-successful business. But he never turned into a greedy, money-grubbing asshole like many others who achieved some "success" -- because of that memory burned into his brain.

In addition, his experience in war (infantry Captain) taught him that military adventures are to be avoided at all costs.

He turned me on to an Impeach-bush organization that he was supporting. He died this year, a proud, un-apologetic liberal.

I wonder and lament why more Americans cannot look at the world they live in and learn the lessons that life teaches us. But I digress.

The mantra of killing government (and the services it provides for our taxes) will eventually crash the system because of the GREED of those who profit from the present organization of our society. They simply do not know when to say "enough is enough."

There will be hardship and tragedy. And most of that will fall on the less-privileged. But it is necessary to take control from those currently running the show. They will not give up their position of power and privilege willingly.

Problem is, too many (almost all) want a painless revolution. They want change without cost. They want progress without discomfort. That weakness is what drives many to (still) have faith in the system - "we have to work from within. Elect liberals on the local level and work up the power structure."

Not gonna happen.

Many fell for that crap with Obama. He was going to bring about C H A N G E. Debates about the degree of progress that has been/not been made aside, it is clear that this administration is not the vehicle to ride/drive to a progressive future. The greater damage he and the ConservaDems have done, even beyond the specific policies that favor the already-wealthy, is to delay, maybe for ever, any chance of making progress through the system.

Maybe I should thank them for that because I honestly do not see a path to that liberal future through our current set-up (using the "trap" definition of that word).

[socialist_n_TN]

17. ALL good ideas for resistance, but..........

do you see anything that gets the majority or at least a large minority of the general public out in the streets and/or participating in any organized resistance?

BTW, I do most of those things and have for a long time. I've never been one to like a lot of accessory stuff.

[tavalon]

23. Does a demonstration happen if the people are not aware of it?

We have a media determined to black out any form of in the street resistance. I've seen it, or rather been erased by it many a time. While I like being with my fellow activists on the street, no concrete change has come from any of the many, many, huge protests there have been since 2003. We are disappeared. The only reason I know they happened is because I was there or I saw it on DU.

2 million descend on DC? Been there, disappeared. Nowadays, I do local action but I don't go to the big protests because it's just too disheartening to see them disappear us. And I won't fly anymore and it's a bitch to get from Washington to Washington DC if you don't fly.

And yeah, I picked out all the things I've been doing (except the co-op and barter ideas) NCNW (New Culture for a New World) has been floating that one for a while but hasn't gotten enough buy in.

[socialist_n_TN]

27. Well that's where we have to change tactics...........

IF there are enough people involved in enough places, the FIRST thing we need to do is hold the mass demonstrations in front of the TV stations and other media outlets. And if it gets to the civil disobedience point, you block off the street AROUND the media centers.

But that leaves the question. What gets enough people out in enough places?

[tavalon]

41. Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it?

[lunatica]

29. I'm doing that, but they don't miss my commerce

I've been boycotting all the commercializing of holidays. But try to get others to do that. Like I said they keep us mesmerized with the glitter and glamor of consumerism. It's like those days when you could choose to listen to FM to avoid the commercials. It didn't last long. Now you can't tell the difference. The airwaves are privatized.

[blindpig]

19. These things do not just happen spontaneously.

There must be organization. Unions are the natural organizers, and while the leadership of many of the unions are severely compromised that could change pretty fast, it's up to the membership. We are in desperate need of organization, fast, the people must be mobilized in defense of Social Security.

[TBF]

21. I remember you pointing out the horror of this attack on social security a few months ago -

that they will piece meal off the current seniors (55 and up probably) and the rest of us will have ours slaughtered. I think that is very likely. So many of us have heard the media talking points the past 20 years - "social security won't be there for me" (many of us under 50 have heard it so much that we believe it).

[socialist_n_TN]

22. YES! Organization is EXTREMELY important............

ESPECIALLY when it comes to guiding (as best you can) what happens WHEN the spark is ignited. But what I'm interested in trying to decipher is what that spark will be. Which will lead to what are the steps that lead up to that spark. This is a forwarned is forearmed type of thread.

The more of us who know what to look for, at least in general terms, the better chance we have of organizing the chaos that would come with this scenario in the MOST positive direction.

[blindpig]

39. Hard to know

Two years ago I had thought that health care mighta been it but the politicians and media conspired to completely bamboozle the public. Ya can only go to that well so many times, people do catch on when they feel the squeeze, and that is going to be felt by damn near everybody, as the austerity hammer comes down. Ya don't really know except in retrospect, so it was in the Russian Revolution, and that is why it is imperative to have an organization in place, one that has considered all the possibilities and is prepared to act.

[Bandit]

25. Obama said he will start fighting for us..........next year..

:shrug:

[Coyote_Bandit]

34. Why does Obama think that

he can throw a shunk in the room and expect me to ignore the odor?

As far as I'm concerned he has no credibility and he has repeatedly shown a willingness to sacrifice my needs and interests.

It doesn't matter what somebody says when they have shown themselves not to be dependable and trustworthy.

[Coyote_Bandit]

31. What do you consider fighting back?

I don't work in corporate Amerikkka. Have only done so for a very brief time during my entire career. I have no aspirations of returning. I'd prefer to earn my livlihood from my own little micro business but available capital and healthcare (or more accurately the lack of both) are the two obstacles to that.

I don't shop the big box stores or the mega online retailers. I prefer to patronize local Mom and Pop stores and resturants. And I don't shop for stuff just to have it. I try to limit purchases to stuff I actually need - and that includes delaying/avoiding the adoption of some technologies. I've got nothing against buying some things that are already used. I seek out US made products.

I don't have any money on deposit or invested through a mega bank or brokerage house. I use a local bank.

I don't carry any debt that I couldn't write a check and pay off in its entirety. No mortgage. No car loan. Only a bit of credit card debt on some long established accounts that I carry for the sole purpose of keeping some kind of current credit history.

I largely avoid the media, the preachers and the politicians. There are activities I enjoy. I don't need to watch tv or go to a movie or concert to entertain myself. I don't need somebody else to tell me what kind of lifestyle I should have or what kind of fashion and style I should adopt. And I figured out a long time ago that both the preachers and the politicians just want to manipulate me to support their agenda.

I prefer to cook/preserve my own food and try to keep a small vegetable garden each summer. I also patronize the local farmer's markets and the local butcher.

I try to limit my energy use. It is necessary to drive here but I limit my driving and combine trips as much as possible. I have a high efficiency heat and air system in my home - and I've added insulation and weather stripping and set the thermostat to minimize energy use.

Fighting back and defending workers? I think that is largely a matter of lifestyle choice. It starts with not patronizing or working for businesses that take advantage of workers and/or outsource their jobs overseas. But it is a lot easier to complain than it is to make the commitment to walk away from those businesses.

[raouldukelives]

38. I hope more of us can follow your lead

I try my best but it's a hard road in modern America. We all do what we can.

[immune]

32. What to look for?

people who aren't drugged out of their minds. WITHDRAWAL. Then maybe they'd get out of the psychedelic haze and give a damn about what's going on around them.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/08/03/antidepressant-use-up-75-percent/7514.html

[lapislzi]

35. Please eat your corn and stop causing trouble.

American Idol comes on in five minutes.

:sarcasm:

[WiffenPoof]

36. I'll Compromise For Now...

...but I'll fight hard starting next year. I mean, they think I'm going to continue to fold???? Hell no...don't call my determination to fight into question. I'm looking forward to showing them that I have a lot of fight in me.

Sound familiar?

(*sigh*)

-PLA

[Mnemosyne]

40. When the 'middle class' is feeding their kids from dumpsters and watching them die

of common infections, maybe then they will rise up. Maybe...

[RagAss]

42. Mass suicides of starving hoards is far more likely.