Have the Japanese tried using a fireboat to cool the reactors?

[krispos42]

The plant is built on the shore, and those fireboats have big diesel-powered pumps that can push out 10x as much water as a land-based fire engine pumper.

Has anybody heard anything about this? Or is are the reactors too far inland to be hit from a fireboat?

[originalpckelly]

1. Probably too far inland...

you can bet they've already considered it.

[krispos42]

2. Well, I wondered

They're dropping water from helicopters, which strikes me as about as useful as me pissing on the reactors. God knows what the radiation will do to the alloying elements in the metal of the helicopters.


This might be something to consider for future (he!) reactors... built them on an artificial peninsula with very steep sides so a fireboat or three can get close enough to douse the thing with seawater if they have to.

[kentauros]

3. There's also the likely problem of debris and silt/mud in the near waters.

My educated guess from watching those fireboats in action is that they are usually spraying relatively clean water. Unless their pumps are designed for silty/muddy water, they probably can't use them in a situation like this.

Also, how many have survived the tsunami relatively undamaged?

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Here is a photo of it

I don't think they can reach either three or four

even if yes that is a brilliant idea.

[krispos42]

5. Well, maybe a fireboat that has some kind of boom.

Quick, get the Japanese prime minister on the line!!!



:D

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. They do make them

but I guess that is why not... and sadly the only piccie is a lego one...

[Poboy]

10. I thought about this a few days ago too. BP rig fire photo to compare-

[GReedDiamond]

7. I would multiply that by...

...as many friggin fireboats will fit in the water next the the complex.

[opihimoimoi]

8. Fireboats have a hugh GPM capacity...prolly approaching 12,000

But first what is required??? How much is needed and How high and how far is the available REACH for high water towers?

Once the water requirements is estab'ed..its only a matter of logistics ...distance and water source...to determine method of transmission..

either pipe or hose...or a series of hoses...most likely 6 inches dia or more

PVC pipes are avail everywhere

Much jury rigging but on the shelf materials make this feasible....

As I write this, they prolly in the process already...I hope so....

edit: get the bulldozers to make room for the fire brigade's water towers...they reach 90 feet high but need to get close..

Those long reach fork lifts with 30 feet extensions should also be considered....

[Stephen Ditmore]

9. Japanese fireboat

They apparently do have them in Japan.
See: http://www.youngstownfire.com/forums/index.php/topic,2096.msg6743.html#msg6743

[opihimoimoi]

13. Almost every harbor has them...but there is water close by...trailer pumps that draft

are there ...perhaps in play as I type...this should be way better than helo drops..

[Stephen Ditmore]

16. autonomous ship control

And here are some links on autonomous ship control:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34RkYTRzqsA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z69Ytg1DRIc
http://www.cse.unr.edu/~olenders/cig06.pdf
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5611754
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4295916
http://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~elkaim/elkaim/Photos.html
http://www.johndandola.com/JohnHaysHammondJr_page2.html
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/02/pentagon-agency-plans-for-sub-hunting-ghost-ship/
http://www.marinetalk.com/articles-marine-companies/art/Internet-and-the-Unmanned-Ship-SAM01914856TU.html
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/499364/robotic-boat-begins-atlantic-crossing

[Motown_Johnny]

11. I suggested the same thing on the thread where ...

...someone suggested using a helicopter to drop a hose into the area where water is needed.


It seems like a reasonable approach to me.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

12. I thought about that, too.

Right before the Loma Prieta quake, some idiots in SF had been looking at getting rid of the one fireboat that serviced our port. When the quake hit and the Marina started to burn, the Phoenix fireboat is the thing that saved the Marina. They ran blocks of hose down to the bay and the boat and it pumped seawater right onto the fire for hours.

After that, the City bought another fireboat and named it The Guardian. Today, both boats are docked just under the Bay Bridge, waiting for the day they will be used again.

I think the problem with fireboats would be positioning them close enough to the plant to be effective -- I suspect the radiation would be too high to keep them there. :(

[AngryAmish]

14. I don't think they just want to pour tons of water inside the plant

(or maybe they do - I am not an expert at any of this)

I think the water once it touches exposed rods will wash away radioactive material. More water just dumped over the building would be more radioactive water.

(says a guy who knows nothing about this subject)

[neverforget]

15. The problem is they (human beings) can't get close enough to put

the water into the needed places. The radiation is too high. The helicopter pilots could make one pass and that was it.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7675

--snip--
Capacity of spent fuel pools: 1200-1500 tons water 15 meters deep
Needed to cover rods: 15 meters, 400-500 tons water

For reactor 3, they think there might be enough water that they only need < 100 tons, perhaps less

One helicopter can drop 7.5 tons/load. But it can't hover, due to the radiation level. If I heard right, those on board are limited to 100 mSieverts/hour (check the time units). They had measured 250/hr at 30 meters and 87/hr at 90 meters. They dumped from 90 meters. See image. Looks more like crop dusting. There was one drop which looked a little better, but at the speed they are going, hitting the building with much is not likely.
--snip--

[Brother Buzz]

17. So, bring in ten pumpers

One time, fire boats had the big guns. Today, Class A Pumpers can push almost as much water as any individual pump on a fire boat. Heck, connect hoses to the fire boat and press its recourses into the mix.

[Xicano]

18. Jerry-rig water cannon fire trucks with remote controls

Jerry-rig enough water cannon type fire trucks to surround the reactors. First drive the trucks next to the shoreline, connect their hoses to pumps placed on the shoreline since the pumps on the fire trucks depend on the fire trucks' fuel supply. Drive the remote controlled modified fire trucks up within range of the reactors and turn the pumps on and leave them on.

Well just an idea anyway.

[dkofos]

19. They will try that if the pissing contest fails.

[jmowreader]

20. I can see one huge problem with that...

They would have to connect huge water pipes to the reactors and pump the water directly into them rather than just spraying the water on the reactors, and the only way you could do that is to find a lot of people willing to give their lives for their country--make no mistake, whoever goes in there and does this will die from radiation exposure.