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Putting Fukushima's Contamination into Perspective

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 09:54 AM
Original message
Putting Fukushima's Contamination into Perspective
Edited on Fri Mar-18-11 09:55 AM by MineralMan
The disaster in Japan has all of us concerned with the prospect of radioactive contamination, both in Japan and even here in the United States, since the jet stream normally flows from Japan to the West Coast of this country. It's a bad situation, and we're monitoring it closely. However, to put things into some sort of perspective, let's look at another source of radioactive contamination:

Between 1945 and 1968, the United States, alone, conducted 1054 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons tests. Some were conducted in the United States, while others took place out in the Pacific Ocean, in various locations. In addition, we detonated two devices in Japan at the end of WWII. While some of these tests were underground tests, many were done in the open air or at ground level. Even the underground tests spewed radioactive fallout. Russia, England, France, and others also conducted nuclear weapons tests, in may locations around the planet. For now, though, I'm just discussing the American testing.

A single nuclear weapons test generates far more radioactive waste than we're seeing from the Fukushima power plants, and does it explosively and pumps that waste high into the atmosphere, where it is carried by upper level winds to remote locations before settling back to Earth.

1054 Nuclear weapons tests! Imagine 1054 nuclear power plants failing. That is contamination on a grand scale. Now, my point here is that there's a lot of panic and anxiety surrounding the Fukushima plant failures, and there has definitely been radiation leaked. Some of it, on a very small scale, is arriving on the US West Coast as I write this.

We survived those 1054 nuclear blasts. That's not to say that there were no consequences from them. Some people were made ill, and probably died prematurely due to those tests. In Japan, the WWII bombs killed large numbers of people. But, the Fukushima releases pale when compared to the massive amount of radiation released by even a single above ground nuclear weapons test.

We need to deal with the current disaster and try to prevent any such disasters from occurring again, but there is a perspective that we must examine before running for the hills and declaring doom for all. We've been through far, far worse releases of radioactive materials. 1054 times, in fact, just in tests by the United States.

I oppose the use of nuclear power to generate electricity, and have since it began. I also oppose ignoring history when it comes to our fears about radioactive materials being released. We've had much, much worse releases in all those tests. And yet, here we still are. Fukushima does not represent doom for everyone. It is a disaster that will be limited in its effects, just as every one of those 1054 nuclear tests had consequences that were limited in their effects.

Lets fix the problem in Japan and consider shutting down nuclear power generation, but let's, please, not panic and forget our perspective.

Information from: http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. yeahbut
we didn't have 24 hour news cycles, the internets and twitter to keep us freaked out about it

on the other hand we had plenty of the opposite kind of ignorance and lack of info and we were well trained to accept the word and actions of AUTHORITY

as always there are pros and cons
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. It doesn't significantly alter the point here
but about half of those tests were underground.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. That's true, and I did mention that, but even the underground
tests vented into the atmosphere. At least most of them did. I'm certainly not saying those tests were not a bad thing. I'm just putting the current situation into a larger perspective, using factual information.
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Yes, and it is a very important perspective
The real danger is localized. Running around with our heads off is counterproductive. Regarding the Daiichi crisis, we ought to be concentrating on what we could do to help Japan get in control.

I think those asking questions about what similar complicated disaster could do to nuke plants here are addressing a real risk.

We ought to keep our attention on the real risks and not get distracted by the imaginary risk of a radioactive "plume" 4,500 miles out that is not emitting enough material to cause substantial danger 70 miles away from the plant.

Wasting energy or money or time that could have been spent on real risks is stupid, and since there are real risks, it is also a risk in and of itself.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, we will just evolve radiation resistant humans.
Then we can move to other planets.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Not the point at all, and I'm in no way saying that nuclear
contamination is not a terrible thing. Just offering a bit of perspective.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's a silly point.
We're not about to put huge cities in the areas where the tests occurred. We will never be able to use those areas for cities now.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well, thanks for your input.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. And the point? We can no longer use the areas where the test occurred.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. The point? I thought I was pretty clear about the point.
The point is that we need to remember the past when looking at the present. While the Nevada Test Site is pretty much closed to visits, I've been there and actually collected a few pieces of sand that was turned into glass by the detonations. Radiation levels don't prohibit humans from short visits.

Further, Las Vegas, which is only a short distance from those sites, seems to be well enough populated.

Why do you think I'm promoting nuclear releases as a positive thing? I'm not, and that's quite clear from what I wrote.

There is, however, a perspective to be gained from looking back at the end results of our nuclear testing. Fukushima does not, in any way, represent doom for the planet. If it did, the planet would already be depopulated from all the contamination released in those tests. It is not. Fukushima will not be a global disaster, either. Almost all of its effects will be confined to parts of Japan near the plants.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. We don't know the long term or cumulative issues at all.
In the grand scheme of things nuclear is pretty new, just about three generations.

We could well be killing ourselves and endangering segments of the life cycle and it just hasn't caught up to us yet.

Humans are shitty at evaluating long term effects, most are only concerned about the immediate or a generation or two at most.

We are almost all far to casual about what ends up in the water table and the oceans, especially.

I think we are out of our reckoning with this especially because we aren't too much on oversight and regulation nor honesty nor much on science unless it leads to fairly quick bucks.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. What you say is true, and has nothing to do with what I wrote.
No, we don't know the long-term effects, although the early nuclear tests and the two Japanese bombs have given us some long-term information, at least for the average human lifetime.

I did not minimize the effects, anyhow. I compared the current situation with a long history of radioactive releases through nuclear weapons testing to create a perspective that we might use to look at the Fukushima releases.

No release is a good thing, and every one of them has some negative effects. That's not the issue. I oppose the use of nuclear power to generate electricity and oppose the use and even the existence of nuclear weapons. My opposition has not gotten rid of either.

The Fukushima releases are a bad thing. I said that in the OP. Nuclear tests are a bad thing. Neither mean doom for us all. They are just bad things that cause some harm. When compared to all the nuclear testing, Fukushima is just a single incident, smaller than any single above ground nuclear test. That's the perspective. All are bad things.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. In our haste to make as many nuclear bombs as we could...
... as fast as we could the plutonium production plants at Hanford were not always run cleanly. We're still cleaning up that awful mess.

Nevertheless, cities downstream of Hanford have not been abandoned.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. That's true, of course. People actually live quite near Hanford.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-11 10:44 AM by MineralMan
There's extensive farmland right across the river from the plant's site. I wouldn't live around there, but people do. We make lots of messes, it seems. We're a messy species, and technology has made it much easier to make very large messes. It's not a good thing, but it's a reality.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks
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divvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. Radiation table
I thought a table of radiation exposure effects might be of interest. (Data culled from various sources.)




please read http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=648970&mesg_id=648970
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. Evening Bump.
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