I want this to be a "Christian" Nation.

[IdaBriggs]

Well, to be fair, I want it to be a Matthew 19: 18-19 version, which values are pretty consistent in all of the major religions (and yes, he is talking about the commandments) -

(snip) {18} Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, {19} Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Now, what do we get from this passage?

No murder. No adultery. No stealing. No lying about other people. Behave so your parents can be proud, and take care of them in their age. Watch out for your neighbors, and help them out.

Since we are in fantasy land at the moment, let's take a moment, look once again at those values, and examine what our laws and national budget would look like, if we were to practice those preachings.

= A prudent people keep an army for defense, but not go into other countries to kill for no reason or to steal the resources of others; we would be out of Iraq and Afghanistan, or at the very least, not allowed to kill people there. (Hmmm. Armies that are supposed to help, instead of kill? TALKING about issues, instead of shooting at people? This seems a tad preposterous already!)

= Neighbors helping each other out, as well as taking care of our elderly, would involve medical care, and ways to provide dignity for those who need assistance, as well as a common sense policy making sure everyone has access to adequate nutrition, good roads, schools/education, clean water, housing, etc.

= "No stealing" would mean strict enforcement of guarding our national assets (parks, wildlife, etc.). A liberal interpretation would have oversight put in place to make sure corporations don't "steal" the health and well-being of the public with shoddy or unsafe practices.

= No bearing false witness would require either a simple return of the Fairness Doctrine, or a new one called "Quit Lying Your Assess Off" and the air pollution of Fox and Limbaugh would go away. Facts would be the starting point of news discussions, and opinions on how to solve problems would be discussed. "News" would actually be relevant, instead of nasty gossip about other people....

Well, the reality is, we aren't a Christian nation, and the folks in power (especially the Republican party) wear the sheep's clothing of professing these beliefs, while being ravening wolves beneath. (See Bush Jr. presidency, and then refer to Matthew 7:15-20 "where by their fruits ye shall know them.")

I guess the problem is our leaders are rich men, and I'm willing to put a bet on how many regularly give a percentage of their wealth to the poor, let alone follow Matthew 7:21 -

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. -

And a poor man can't afford to get into office (and we would realistically question his judgment on how to manage his career/finances, depending on what was going on, since we do not respect "poor" people).

If our leaders (and us, by default) aren't following the teachings of Jesus, or Mohamed, or Moses, or Buddha, or Krishna, or any of the great and wise lessons on how to be decent this world has been gifted with (including Kindergarten), I can only conclude we worship the Almighty Dollar instead. Heaven knows most of us spend our lives chasing it!

I wish we were a "Christian" Nation instead.... :(

(EDIT: for grammar issue - sorry!)

[LynneSin]

1. That's pretty much the 10 Commandments he's talking about

:D

Which btw, he said were the only important laws from the old testament.

[HereSince1628]

2. Christian philosophy has proven to be much kinder than christians

[Scuba]

18. Bingo.

[anneboleyn]

38. Amen! I wish that these self-proclaimed Christians had to spend a day with community outreach Jesus

i.e. the same Jesus who spent his time with the most vulnerable members of society: the poor, the sick, the disabled, the mentally ill, and asked his disciples to leave their families and give everything up to lead the religious life. I think the prosperity gospel nonsense ("Oh Lord won't you buy me a mercedes benz" -- forgive me, Janis Joplin) has seriously damaged Christianity in America.

[palm_to_forehead]

3. Then do it.

Stop talking about it on a forum.

Go live your life like that.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[palm_to_forehead]

37. Why do you think I'm a 38 post member?

Because I spend all day on the computer talking about how I want others to spend their lives?

Honestly, I used to do that. Then I realized what I could have been actually doing while contemplating what could be done online.

Jesus wasn't teaching us how to change government, he was teaching us how to change ourselves.

[Angry Dragon]

4. There is a huge gulf between the small minded 'christians'

and the Christians that actually believe.

the small minded 'christians' have no idea of the Christ that you speak of,

[cleanhippie]

5. Yeah, but its not christian ideals that are the problem, its the christians...

[superduperfarleft]

6. I want a nation where people do the right thing regardless of what some fairy tale tells them to do.

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. +1

[Brickbat]

14. I'm arguing with you on another thread, but I totally agree with this.

:toast:

[superduperfarleft]

15. It happens. n/t

[Brickbat]

21. And I love it when it does.

[erinlough]

20. Thank you

I agree with you. I have friends who can not imagine how an atheist or agnostic would have morals! Astounding. I tell them I can not believe there are true Christians that steal, cheat and lie. They usually don't get it.

[krabigirl]

22. Me too. Nt

[Dappleganger]

24. Agreed, but what the OP posted is taking the argument to THEM

using their own words against the hypocrites.

[NC_Nurse]

30. Touché.

Wouldn't that be nice...

[Chris_Texas]

35. thank you

[deutsey]

7. A more relevant chapter from Matthew (aside from the Sermon on the Mount)

is MT 25, where Jesus compares his true followers with his false followers:

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[palm_to_forehead]

11. What about 1-33?

[palm_to_forehead]

13. That is directly behind this...

24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

[IdaBriggs]

32. Love those parts - the least of these was me.

I love the idea that we are all actually family, and as such, we should be looking out for all of us....

[xchrom]

8. Recommend

[pwb]

10. Most of the angry players today are non- Christians.

The Koch brothers, Rupert Murdoch, breitbart, kristol, krauthammer, all would kick Jesus in the balls if they had the chance. Our so-called Christian Republicans are being led by these assholes.

[northoftheborder]

12. Thank you for this post. Very well put. I agree.

[nichomachus]

16. As long as you realize that the "adultery" part

only referred to women. Men could have more than one wife and even mistresses. For a married woman to have sex with a man not her husband, it was considered adultery. If a married man had sex with an unmarried woman, that was cool. If a man, married or unmarried, had sex with a married woman, that was considered a property crime against the husband. Women were chattel.

[palm_to_forehead]

17. What exactly are you basing that on?

The Old Testament law? That's certainly now what the OP was suggesting we go back to.

In Matthew 5:28 Jesus goes so far as to say that a man who lusts after another woman has already commited adultry in his heart.

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

19. I recommend this

But do you have to compare the GOP to wolves?

What did we ever do to be compared to those lying, cheating, and worse GOPugs.

[truebrit71]

25. Awesome picture...

..I too hate the bad name Wolves have been given over time..

[NeoGreen]

23. Small problem... non of these ideas are exclusively...

...christian.

They are not derived from the christian faith, but have been (presumably) adopted by the faith.

They pre-date christianity.

So, we do not have to be a christian nation, in order to express positive ethics.

And in many ways, being christian is an impediment to expressing positive ethics.

[IdaBriggs]

29. Excerpts -

"Well, to be fair, I want it to be a Matthew 19: 18-19 version, which values are pretty consistent in all of the major religions" (snip)

- and -

"If our leaders (and us, by default) aren't following the teachings of Jesus, or Mohamed, or Moses, or Buddha, or Krishna, or any of the great and wise lessons on how to be decent this world has been gifted with (including Kindergarten)" (snip)

So, you can see I agree with you; I still want to see us adopt these values. You can call it the Cosmic Duck Religion for all I care. :)

[NeoGreen]

39. I am glad we agree...

... but I just wanted to correct the sub-meme that those specific ideas are 'christian'.

They are universal, not just to most religious doctrines, but to all ethical modes of living.

I agree with your base intent and I wish you and all others well, but names (words) do matter.

[kctim]

26. Atheist here

What part of this religious stuff tells Christians to use govt and force others to do such things?

[IdaBriggs]

27. I guess I was trying to say (I hope somewhat eloquently)

that what a government spends its time and money on *are* its values. I like the values taught by Jesus, which in my opinion, are also taught across *all* great religions, and would like to see the money / time spent on them (instead of what we currently have).

You can be an atheist, and still appreciate the values / benefits to society these values bring; in fact, as an atheist, you are probably more likely to see the "logic" behind them! :)

[palm_to_forehead]

28. What have you done today to make it a reality?

That's the question I always ask when people say we need to use the Bible to influence government.

Jesus wasn't a political figure, there's no legitimate reason to wait for the government to do what he taught.

[DeschutesRiver]

34. if atheists and christians appreciate the same values, then

there is no need to be saying that we need a "Christian" nation, since it appears that these "values" are universal.

I don't believe that one must be a Christian to have values, yet calling our nation a "Christian" nation seems to imply that one must be a Christian to have values. I do know an acquaintance who sincerely believed that only by belonging to her particular religious group could one really have a moral code; anyone outside that group or any atheist simply wasn't capable of behaving in a true moral fashion. She claimed she was an "amoral" and selfish person before becoming religious, and that it was the only means available for people to truly become in control of themselves and their baser impulses. Coming from a non-religious perspective as I do, it was both disturbing and very sad to hear the conviction in her voice about something that clearly isn't true for most people who exist happily and with great values outside the religious complex (she happened to be a Roman Catholic).

So there is no need to use the phrase "Christian nation" to describe our entire nation, esp. since Christians are simply one of many groups of people who inhabit our land. I don't think the goverment needs to be spending one iota of money or time on anything even vaguely "religious"; our constitution makes it quite clear that the government was never intended to have a role in the religious matters of the nation, so that we would all be free to choose to believe as we wish.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. I agree - the 2nd "greatest commandment" or the "golden rule"

says much the same.

If we treated each other the way we hope they'll treat us, what a wonderful world it could be.

thanks for this thoughtful post-

:hi:

[Chris_Texas]

36. The christian "god" is a fat rich guy and spewing BS about what others should do