I watched porn yesterday.

[SmileyRose]

I'm not into porn. Last time I saw any porn was as an idiotic 19 yr old too shy to tell that boyfriend I thought it was stupid and pointless. The 1970's version really didn't offend me at all but at the time I thought it was more about "using" a female than anything else.

My sister in full meltdown mode because she found it on her daughters old computer - emailed me the link to the 2010 porn. It was truly shocking and quite frankly painful to watch. Is this really what relations between people have devolved to? While the images I saw in the 70's assumed every woman was hot for it - she was still portrayed as a human being with her own control and choices over the situation. In the 2010 version the women are basically just treated as body parts and everyone in the thing looks bored (if you even see a face at all). What happened to the human beings? The women in these things have absolutely no personal power in the exchange. It was really very frightening to see these girls treated this way.

When I called my sister back the conversation went to the video games and the texting, and the fact our society has begun to not even look at each other when we are sitting at the same table. It's VERY COMMON for someone to be talking to me at work and stop mid sentence to play with the phone - as if I no longer exist. And we've talked on the DU more than once about how rude the public arena is getting...... me me me.

I'm in my late 50's - hardly an old fuddy duddy. Certainly no prude. But honestly, as time wears on, I worry for the teenagers and the 20 somethings - the boys and girls both. I just hope they will be able to have human intimacy - emotionally and physically.


Edit to correct typos - should have used the number pad instead of the upper keys..........

[BrklynLiberal]

1. I was sure you meant that you had inadvertantly turned your TV to FAUX NOISE!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. I've always worried more about the violence in media

But I do understand your point. We are desensitizing our kids. And I'm not sure what the answer is.

[mistertrickster]

3. It's not all the same. As usual, the Europeans do it better, heh. nt

[Codeine]

86. The most vile and degrading porn is produced almost exclusively in Europe

utilizing the human trafficking networks for their "actors."

[mistertrickster]

209. You are probably right. I apparently haven't seen that, and I hope I never do, heh. nt

[eridani]

187. No, women do it better. Check out products produced by women

Though there are probably a lot of clunkers there also.

[DutchLiberal]

193. It's not a question of 'doing it better'; it's a matter of taste (n/t)

[forty6]

4. A good deal of provocative thought there! I agree, and worry, too...

I have a great nephew who is all of 14, he has a computer, a cell phone,and an Ipod Touch, too.

He spends many hours on the computer and Ipod, hardly any time on the phone, but he always has it with him.

He plays computer games on both devices. Dispenses with his homework in about a half hour each night, then back to the computer games.

He texts, too, on both the phone and the Ipod. He hardly ever goes out to a social event, his best friend is a guy from summer camp that he can't see regularly because they live 20 miles apart and go to different schools.

I wonder what kind of social skills he is developing.

Oh, and what does he want for Christmas that his grandparents will get him? A new cell phone with a better camera on it. (The Ipod has a camera and can do stills and videos, but that's not enough?)

[bemildred]

5. Boy, I wish you were wrong.

The world is awash in smut and most of it is bad. It's a very competitive commodity market where the barriers to entry are very low, so the quality is very low too. It's all about the money, and it's all aimed at the most manipulable parts of the male market for that reason.

(I'm a guy, don't let the username mislead you.)

[SmileyRose]

10. This is a good point.

What I was watching was geared toward the Youtube audience. And I would assume there are movie length adult films still being made that cater to a more mature crowd. This would have been the stuff I saw in the in the 70's - but that was what was available to the 19 yr old boy then.

[MindandSoul]

6. I feel your pain!

[Onlooker]

7. Sort of seems like boundaries were crossed

Seems odd that your sister would forward something so private to you, but never mind that. I think every generation goes through the shock of the new, and people keep talking about all the loss. In Madame Bovary the porn was removing a glove, in the 1890s Freud was forced to retract his obscene belief that women are sometimes victims of sexual abuse by their fathers, in the 1920s women who wore pants or smoked cigarettes were considered obscene, in the 1930s the moving image raised the hackles of many and resulted in the Hayes Commission that required married couples in movies to have separate beds, in 1960s it was the era of free love and the fear that the nuclear family would die; similar things happened with the rise of the women's movement and gay rights movements in the 1970s and 1980s. Everyone kept predicting that the new openness would lead to all sorts of problems. Today's youth might lose something thanks to the nature of today's porn and technology, but they'll also gain something, and just like the generations that preceded them, they'll be okay.

[hfojvt]

16. Are we/they really okay?

You mean we don't currently have lots of problems? We don't have hundreds of thousands of rapes every year? There are no abused spouses or neglected children?

[DutchLiberal]

17. Rape comes from sexual repression, not from watching porn...

At least I haven't seen one sound scientific study that proves there's a connection between watching porn and rape..

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[toddaa]

51. The Meese Commission bibliography

nice

[DutchLiberal]

91. I haven't seen any of the research you've mentioned...

Too bad you weren't able to provide links, so I could check them for myself. I'm a scholar of media myself, so I know the 'conclusions' of media-related research are often interpreted or reported the wrong way. Research on 'media influence' is very hard to do (as I've experienced myself), because a vague term like 'influence' is very hard to define and to measure. The closest I've seen of 'evidence' of media influence is the finding of correlation, which is something different than a direct cause-and-effect relation. Now I'm not saying there's no such thing as media influence (otherwise, why should corporations pay that much for advertising?). But the extent is hard to proof. Why are there so many men who watch porn on a regular basis without experiencing any of the effects you mention (desensiziting of rape/violence to women)? Those are really radical conclusions, and if they're not true for me and everybody I know, why should it be true for most men?

It's one thing to be opposed to porn, but why does it always have to be accompanied by such broad claims?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

237. wouldn't take too much to look up the names of the researchers mentioned

sorry I didn't provide links - I knew of the U. of Wisc one and googled it, found a site that had others that looked as if they had creds as well. That was all the effort I cared to put into it on Christmas morning. If you do some online research I am sure you'll find more on your own. But as I wrote, would you know it if you saw it?

[Hello_Kitty]

66. Rape comes from a desire for power and control over another human being. eom

[DutchLiberal]

93. Among other reasons, yes...

But it is telling that the rate of rapes is much, much higher in countries like Pakistan or Afghanistan, where sexuality is oppressed, instead of it being out in the open, like it is in our societies.

[superduperfarleft]

116. Why wouldn't rate of rapes be higher in countries like that?

Yes, the reason that fundamentalist muslims that think women are lower than dogs proceed to treat them like shit is because they don't have access to analdestruction.com. :eyes:

[DutchLiberal]

120. Please, no snarky comments and rolling eyes. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion...

I've noticed other posters didn't and maybe that's gotten you agitated, but there's no need to take it out on me. Read my arguments before you start with misplaced sarcasm. Copied from my reply below:

" Think about it: these are countries where 'sex' is considered a dirty word. It's supposed to take place only in marriage and only to bear children. It's never supposed to be talked about. Women have to cover themselves so men won't lust after them. To reveal a little bit of skin is considered a sin and is often punishable by law. People are forced into pre-arranged marriages. Sexuality is repressed in every way. Those people are taught to not touch women, to not even look at them. The high rape rates are a result of that."

[superduperfarleft]

123. Sorry about that, I think I was dragging my previous encounters into this discussion.

See my post below, and I apologize.

[DutchLiberal]

127. Hey, it's okay, I can see why you would do that...

I think it's a shame some posters below had to sink to the level of calling other people "prudes", without any explanation.

Not everybody likes porn. I do admit that I think that some (not all) of the people who don't like porn may have a limited, or dated, idea of what pornography nowadays is... But to call them prudes is not helping the discussion.

[TorchTheWitch]

104. rape isn't about sex, repressive or otherwise

Rape happens because of a belief of entitlement which comes from a society that accepts the degeneration of women. The more a society degenerates its women the more prevalent rape is.

There are parallels to the degeneration of other groups of people such as children, people of color, the downtrodden, etc. in society's treatment of them. The more a society degenerates any group of people the more it accepts abuses of people in those groups.

Whether pornography is good or bad depends entirely on what is depicted in the films. Some pornography can be empowering to women while other pornography is terribly degenerating to women. In general, in some ways pornography has improved but in other ways it has gotten worse.

[DutchLiberal]

108. Then why are rape rates that much higher in countries with a repressive culture?

[superduperfarleft]

114. Countries like Iran or China?

You're really wondering why rape rates are higher in countries that treat women like crap?

[DutchLiberal]

119. Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi-Arabia...

Think about it: these are countries where 'sex' is considered a dirty word. It's supposed to take place only in marriage and only to bear children. It's never supposed to be talked about. Women have to cover themselves so men won't lust after them. To reveal a little bit of skin is considered a sin and is often punishable by law. People are forced into pre-arranged marriages. Sexuality is repressed in every way. Those people are taught to not touch women, to not even look at them. The high rape rates are a result of that.

[superduperfarleft]

122. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm going to restate to you

how your comments come off. Here goes, the nicest way I can put it.

"Rape rates are high in these cultures because males aren't allowed healthy sexual outlets."

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, if this is actually what you think, I don't think you understand the social forces behind sexual violence at all. Rape is inherently about power, and in a culture which naturally gives males more power over women in almost every way, it's not surprising that it would lead to increased numbers of rapes.

And again, I would think it would be intuitive that countries that are incredibly oppressive towards women would have a male population which values women so little that rape is considered somehow okay. It doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with the existence or non-existence of porn.

[DutchLiberal]

130. I'm not saying 'power' isn't a major factor in play...

I'm just saying it goes beyond that, and that it's more complicated. I don't think that has anything to do with me not understanding anything, but simply me having a different point of view.

And yes, I do think rape rates are high when men don't have *healthy* sexual outlets. Of course that doesn't only mean porn (like you made it sound), but also having healthy, mutual agreed upon sexual relationships with women. Wanting to have sex and having sex is a very natural thing and people start to get interested in it in their teens. If you repress that, it's going to "boil over" and it's going to come out ugly.

Why do you think we recently read so much about child abuse in the catholic church? Power, yes, and it happens in soccer clubs and the boy scouts, too. But why did it happen *systematically* and on such a large scale in the church? I say celibacy has got a lot to do with it.

[TorchTheWitch]

189. in all of those countries the repression isn't on the men

Which is why they aren't punished for rape nor even looked down on for it as the culture and even the laws are designed to blame any sexual "transgression" on the women. Sexual deviency in these cultures are only considered deviant when the women are doing them. Men are forgiven if they're even recognized for having committed an "transgression" at all. That's even the point to blaming the women for the deviancy... so the men don't even NEED to be forgiven and thus are ALLOWED to be as sexually deviant as they what. Men can have as many wives as they want, and divorce is as easy as snapping your fingers. Prostitution abounds and is a common feature when the men get together and even includes children of both sexes. Men can even have sex slaves either male or female and regardless of their age.

These cultures are FAR more sexually deviant for MEN since the men can basically do whatever they want sexually with it being legally and socially acceptable, which is a direct result of the repression of the women. The more repressed the women, the more deviant the men. Which pretty much explains the purpose of such repression of women, doesn't it?

[DutchLiberal]

194. There are two sides to the story. I don't deny the explanation you've given...

Which is a very good one and I don't doubt that it's very real what you're describing (although I don't know about broad, unfunded claims about "prostitution including children" and "sex slaves"). It's a very good explanation of what's going on in those kind of countries, *but* the question is: where does such extreme deviant sexual behavior come from? And I believe that's where my explanation of sexual repression comes into play. It's not an either-or situation, like many on this board would like to believe. It's not a contest to see which poster has the 'best' arguments; those arguments all fit together. It seems to me there's little to deny in both mine and your argumentation.

[TorchTheWitch]

186. what culture exists or ever existed that was sexually repressive for men?

There is none. Even in the most sexually repressed cultures past or present the men can do what they want and not face punishment as the laws are/were designed to put blame on the women for any "transgression" the men might commit which puts all the sexual repression onto the women. If fact, the more sexually repressed the culture the more men are/were legally and socially allowed to get away with.

[JVS]

188. Where do you come up with something so incredibly incorrect?

[DutchLiberal]

195. Culture inside of religious institutions like the Catholic church, for instance...

And I just gave you a whole list of countries with repressive sexual cultures, so why you ask the question is beyond me. That post of yours is just blatantly incorrect.

[TexasObserver]

203. Well said, and a welcome note of reason.

One person's porn is another person's healthy sexual activity.

It's been that way for known history, and that will continue to be the case.

Assuming everyone involved is a consenting adult, it is what it is.

I find slashers/cutter/dismemberment films far more disturbing than porn.

[LuvNewcastle]

8. There are various kinds of porn these days.

There's a lot of fetishistic porn, off-the-wall porn, and just plain kinky porn, but there's also still some soft-core porn and sort of 'romantic' porn. If you're going to watch it, it's a good idea to read a review of it first or maybe just watch a sample. I think a lot of younger people watch the kinky stuff just so they can chat about how sick it is.

[and-justice-for-all]

191. exactly...nt

[xor]

9. I thought the "pro" porn that treats women (and in some cases, I'm sure the men) like shit was done

and on the way out? I dunno. Most guys(and occasional female) I know, seem to prefer the amateur stuff in which all parties seem to be into it. As in, they are just filming themselves doing what they would be doing anyway. I figured the internet and its ability to allow anyone to distribute their own amateur stuff was killing the shit porn you speak of. Then again, you may feel the same way about even that sort of porn, aye?

[seabeyond]

11. this is it smiley and truly what we have come to. people saying how unharmful it is

dont look beyond the self satisfaction. it is a world of dehumanizing. it is creating all females as whores and to be used, in the worst of ways. it is not about sex. it is about dominence and the fantasy of never ending, always dominence of another.

cheers

[phasma ex machina]

12. Girls: 'we want parents to protect us from sex'

"I wish my parents would say I'm not allowed to be home alone with a boy", said one 16-year-old girl. "I wish they'd say boys aren't allowed in my bedroom.

"They make this big deal about 'trusting us', but that's not helping me", she said. "They have no idea what goes on, and I'm too embarrassed to tell them." ...

"It's awful", the girl said. "It's so obvious he's copying his actions from watching porn. No boy would call you beautiful. They use words like 'hot' and 'sexy'. That's why my friends and I like using third wheels. We want protection". (link)

[DutchLiberal]

19. Parents need to educate their sons, not over-protect their daughters.

[phasma ex machina]

28. Educating sons and protecting daughters seems best to me. nt

[DutchLiberal]

88. Of course any sane parent would protect his/her daughter, but...

... I think OVER-protection is never good for a child. I mean, to get back at the example to which I reacted, I've been alone in a room with girls very often when I was a teenager, and nothing bad ever happened. It depends on what kind of boys we're talking about, and a girl has to be taught to make the distinction between 'good' boys and 'bad' boys --and boys need to be taught to be respectful of women.

If that's all done, there's no harm in leaving them alone in a room. Teenagers need privacy, too. I would've gone mad if I was never allowed to spend some time alone with a girl. ;)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

198. Someone please tell me how that is not sexist. -nt

[Ilsa]

36. +1000. I'm tired of people not making boys part of the solution. nt

[Madam Mossfern]

37. The first time I found a Hustler magazine

under my oldest son's bed, he got a lecture about objectifying women.

[DutchLiberal]

90. It's not wrong for boys to watch porn...

It's wrong for parents to never educate them about the difference between porn and reality. If they know and understand that porn is all fake, and does not represent healthy human relationships, I see no harm in them watching it.

[superduperfarleft]

118. How old are we talking here? n/t

[DutchLiberal]

121. I think I watched my first (soft-core) porn when I was 14 years old...

Back in the days when there was no internet and a young boy had to watch that stuff at night on tv (yes, Dutch regular tv used to show soft-core porn, but they haven't for quite a number of years).

[superduperfarleft]

126. Fair enough. My first was 12.

It didn't instantly warp me or anything, but I do think it's not something that should be openly shown to kids that young, simply because in the situations in which it is usually shown to them, there's not really any guidance towards the "fantasy vs. reality" thing.

[DutchLiberal]

132. I think it should be included in sex education, and that should start in last year of elementary...

school.

I know that idea will freak out many (conservative) people, especially in the US (sorry about the stereotyping). They see it as 'encouraging' kids to have sex; but actually, studies have shown kids will start later with sex if they have been properly educated. And let's face it, in today's media environment with internet and all, you can't shield them from it, so at least teach them about it.

[seabeyond]

137. this is the point. people say, you dont like it, dont watch. todays internet and media normalizes

mainstreams it and we are being conditioned it is all hunky dory and healthy. i have teen boys in the school system. they have more sex education in school and out by ten, then what we ever did in our day. it is so obsessively viewed in our culture to have taken it from middle ground of healthy to an extreme of unhealthy. it is in the schools. they start young and every year after have it in courses. the kids are not being "deprived" of education, unless homeschooled and sheltered.

[DutchLiberal]

141. I don't believe any of that is true...

I believe that's how you see society, but I don't agree. You want to watch porn, you have to go on the internet and search for it yourself. You act like the media is presenting it to you on a silver platter. It's not that way.

What is true, is that many people don't make that big a deal about it anymore than they did 10 years ago. I mean, I recall an episode of 'Friends' in which two characters accidentally got free porn on tv, and they discussed that freely with their friends, and they even watched together (they didn't want to turn it off, because they were afraid it would go away). So it has defiantly become more acceptable, but at the same time, the same episode also showed how the guys got unrealistic expectations from watching all the porn and decided to turn it off. I think making it acceptable to talk *about* porn is a good thing.

I've read and heard a lot about "abstinence only" programs being taught in American high schools. A very dangerous program, which results in unsafe sex and higher teen pregnancy rates. It's great your boys get sex education, but one example hardly represents the country as a whole.

[Hannah Bell]

175. the nordic countries have the earliest average age of first experience

because of proper education.

http://chartsbin.com/view/xxj

[DutchLiberal]

196. I see no relation between the two in your link...

[Hannah Bell]

213. ? you don't see that the nordic countries have the earliest age of 1st experience or you don't see

the "proper education" piece?

[DutchLiberal]

220. The link doesn't show any relation/correlation between sex ed and age of 1st experience...

Do I write in Swahili or something?

[Hannah Bell]

222. you're the one who posited the correlation.

silly me, i assumed you were familiar with the nordic countries' approach to sex education.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm

the link was just to show they also had the earliest age of first sexual experience in the developed world.

contra your assertion.

[DutchLiberal]

225. I still haven't seen you prove any relation/correlation; the link proves the opposite...

American critics of sex education fear that teaching children about sex and contraception encourages promiscuity. But the percentage of girls having sex before age 15 is 12 percent in Sweden and 14 percent in the States. The Swedish classes urge students to wait until they feel mature. "When to have sex was up to me," says Ruiz. "That's what they told us in class."

I don't even know why you keep bringing this up (do you think it's bad?) and what relationship it has to porn.

[Hannah Bell]

228. the link i gave you shows the average age of first experience for all youth,

which was the correlation you cited.

now you shift to new territory instead of backing up your original assertion.

no sense continuing.

[DutchLiberal]

229. But WHERE does it show a relationship to sex education???????!!!!!!!!

Are you really so stupid that you don't understand that you have NOT proven anything?! How many ways are there to tell you that your links don't mean anything?! How am I shifting to new territory? We are STILL on the 'sex ed - age of 1st experience' territory. We have never left that territory. But tell me: WHAT are you trying to prove or disprove here?! And why does it even matter?

"no sense continuing".

I have read the thread and your replies to others, and this is your standard expression whenever other people come to see that all your posts consist of nonsensical gibberish, isn't it?

[JVS]

232. The two pieces of information show correlation. The word you're looking for is "causation"

which you also call relation. Hopefully this miscommunication can be cleared up.

[DutchLiberal]

233. Yes, you're right. Thank you. There's no causation.

[Hannah Bell]

236. no miscommunication. the dutch liberal made a claim & can't back it up.

so he's throwing up a lot of smoke to disguise that fact.

"studies have shown kids will start later with sex if they have been properly educated"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=68404&mesg_id=69813


fact is, it's exactly the opposite of what he claimed.

[DutchLiberal]

239. No, I made a claim and you didn't disprove it...

So now you're throwing up a lot of smoke to disguise that fact.

"fact is, it's exactly the opposite of what he claimed."

Where did you prove this? Not in one of your links.

[provis99]

226. and Sweden has the highest rate of rape in Europe.

You're not helping.

[DutchLiberal]

227. Source?

[seabeyond]

128. here is a clue in with the issue you are talking about. do you recognize how often it is ALL about

the male sexuality with you. the male need. the male want. the male entertainment. the male everything. to the point of protect the daughters against the good boy and bad boy. this is just one of the many issues with porn and protrayal of porn in excessiveness i am seeing in the culture today. it is ALL about the male adn the total be all end all of male sexuality.

a conditioning to our males (which i see naturally in your posts while being openminded in discussion) and our females.

this is simply one issue

[DutchLiberal]

131. Not, it's not at all like that "with me"...

As I've said before, I don't think you're really reading this thread and the posts of the "pro-porn people" (as you call them) very rationally or objectively. At least, that's not what comes through in your posts. I'm sorry, but you're making a lot of false assumptions about me, simply because I happen to share a point of view with other people who have been nasty about it. I don't think that's fair.

[seabeyond]

139. and i disagree with you. i think if you will go back and read your post it is ALL about

males sexuality one way or another and the female seems to be along for the ride.

now.... you may not agree with me. but that is what i hear in your posts. not purposely. not because you are an ass, sexist or anything else. i think it is because our culture today so gloifies male sexuality as the be all end all that we naturally thru conditioning, discuss it in that manner.

[DutchLiberal]

142. And *this* is what I mean by "people forcing their points of view" upon others...

I think you're so radically anti-porn (a right which nobody can deny you) that you view every remark through this "anti-porn prism" and turn every casual remark into something that glorifies male sexuality --which it isn't. In other words: I seriously think you see things that aren't there because you're too involved. No offense.

[seabeyond]

147. and i think you are in denial to what i am saying because it does not jive

with your conclusions.

post below talking about men not getting sex and needing an outlet. men needing humiliation in porn for their own whatever. the point is.... all this is about mens sexuality and the be all end of of their sexuality and their needs. a women and her sexual need or desire or want is not even on a scale of discussion.... evah....

post above, about u.s. education. my kids are in texas. they are in the heart of the abstinence courses you talk. i am well aware what the kids are being taught in school. so i am not out of the loop or talking from an unknown. from 6th grade on they have programs and classes discussing different aspects of youth sexuality. maybe from an abstinence perspective, but very well informed and educated manner. they are well aware of disease, preg and birth control. they tend not to use them because their parents are not discussing in home in an openness of awareness and responsibility if and when. but the kids KNOW about preg and KNOW about BC. even in the abstinence courses.

and media using the subject of porn allowing acceptance is the very normalization of it i am talking about

which also make me reiterate the obsessiveness to extreme we have with sex today, in media, net, that i am talking about. more talk than actually doing. the obsessiveness to unhealthy. i have been the parent that discusses with my boys the difference in the extremes, fundamentalist/obsessive vs a healthy journey in explorations i want them to be able to experience going into maturity.

i was raised in calif, in the 70's and reno nv in the 80's as a young, adult single bartender. i wasnt raised in puritism.... i am not there now. i see the extremes and how they hurt people. that is what i have issue with.

let me point out again, i am talking about the issue, you are telling me who i am.... and you are not correct.

[DutchLiberal]

150. There is porn made by women, for women, out there. But that's a small market...

Women are not that into porn. So it's only logical most of the talk is going to be about men and how they deal with porn.

I've talked extensively about how boys should be taught the difference between porn and reality. What do you want from me? It seems like you're only satisfied when everybody swears off porn.

"my kids are in texas. they are in the heart of the abstinence courses you talk. i am well aware what the kids are being taught in school. so i am not out of the loop or talking from an unknown. from 6th grade on they have programs and classes discussing different aspects of youth sexuality. maybe from an abstinence perspective, but very well informed and educated manner."

Impossible. Nothing that is 'taught' from an "abstinence perspective" can be informed and educated. Ever. It's dangerous. It increases the risk of teens getting sexually transmitted diseases and/ore getting pregnant. 'Abstinence only'-programs are *not*, I repeat, NOT the same as sex education. Not even close. So no, you can't talk about this from experience. And what do you mean with 'maybe' they're taught from an 'abstinence perspective'? You mean you're not sure?

"the obsessiveness to unhealthy."

I don't know what exactly you're trying to say, as you write in incomplete sentences, so I can't always figure it out. Are you saying the way the media treat sexuality is 'unhealthy'?

[seabeyond]

162. i have two boys going thru the educational system telling me what they are being taught.

since you tell me, i dont know what i am talking about, YOU tell me what these kids learn in 6th grade, 7th, 8th.... and beyond. i will tell you if you are even close. or, you can ask me if they are learning about this this this and i can let you know exactly what they are being taught. it is beyond absurd to not be a part of this educational system, with no knowledge and tell me what you dont know. sorry... but i am laughing as i type. that is funny.

now, here are some of my experiences with porn. i am actually putting way more time into this than i normally do. because people that view porn as harmless generally ignore what is being said and i find it to be a waste of my time. gonna give it a try.

when i was young played with porn a bet. i found it could have an addictive pull. i got uninterested and saw the boringness of it. that was about it. i have discussed with hubby, when he was younger, and his play in it. he readily agrees there is an addictive pull. that is one point for people to be aware of. that is also being proved out in studies as we are being saturated with porn. seeing more and more of this. but fine, peoples choice. just something to be aware of.

my experiences over the years is seeing porn as a weapon against women. and some examples

my brother, very controlling, jealous, an alcoholic put a porn calendar up in kitchen with womens legs spread. invited familyfreinds over for dinner. saw my mom come out of kitchen pissed. saw the calendar and asked him what that shit was about. he told me was "art" and the beauty of the woman body. it was to put his wife in her place. controlling manipulative means. he had two young sons and daughter about 8. was used as weapon to females. a means to degrade. unhealthy for all the kids. and all threee as young adults are totally fucked up. this is simply a part of it.

ou of town visit to hubbys best friend. he and his wife were in a fight, i guess. he pulls out a tablet of womens boobs. making noise, ogling. all about putting wife and i in an uncomfortable position. hubby walks into room and friend throws it to him. what? thought hubby would play? hubby not pissed at me. he took a look, saw what it was about, clicked what game his friend was playing and threw back and told him to knock it off. was used to make us feel inadaquit.

a friend wants sex with wife. she isnt in mood. he tells us that he pulls out computer, gets his porn, as they lay in bed until she gives him what he wants. a sure way to get sex. not cause she is stimulated or excited or likes the porn, but a manipulative means of getting message across.

my niece, last year, young, recently married, two young kids (babies). uncomfortable with the porn. hubby wants her to go to strip clubs with him. to experiment. she says why? why do i want to watch you watch some naked woman. he calls her a prude. has a rape video. say loosin up. fun. she was raped at 12. the girl being ganged raped is just pretending to be afraid. she isnt really. fantasy. all the crying and screaming and fear.... really she wants to be gang raped. niece asks how am i suppose to get sexually excited by that. after about a year of his porn (he was virgin until 20 and used porn to get off all those years to where he has to have more and more odd porn to get off) she wants a divorce. cannot look at him the same. she leaves him. he comes to me and tells me.... want her back, love her, need her..... but cant do without his porn. they got back together but wont be together for long.

all four of these relationships are in the toilet by some means of abuse of porn. hubby and i dont use it want it need it. and we go along enjoying each other.

time and again i hear about the relationship where porn is taking front seat in marriages and the woman says enough and leaves. the man cries..... i want my family, my wife.... cant give up my porn. woes is me.

a long time poster on du has talked about his addictiveness to porn and the damage it has caused him, and how forever it makes him look at women in a way he wishes he had never developed.

young guys today talk to young gals like they are all their whores and "suck my dick" "hit it" is acceptable endearing conversation with female.

we can pretend it is not an issue. we can pretend it is all rosey and happy with users. we can pretend that there is not a negative effect to porn. i dont do that. i dont pretend.

porn is nothing in and of itself. it is how it is used that is the issue.

but what i find is people are not honest about the downside and only see the nonharmful manner of porn. that is not reality.

[Hannah Bell]

174. +100.

[DutchLiberal]

197. Just because all the people you know have serious issues with relationships...

... doesn't mean it's the porn that's unhealthy or dangerous or harmful. You should get those people examined, instead of the porn. Porn didn't make them jealous, or controlling. Their personalities did. Porn didn't make kids fucked up. Bad parenting did. The way you describe those people, they're anti-social. It's in their personalities. That's the cause. I would let them get checked with a shrink.

If you hear "time and time again" about relationships where porn is "taking the front seat", I have to seriously question the people you get involved with. I don't know any such people. It reads to me like a very overblown, over-exaggerated account. Maybe even fabricated. But that's not the point. Even if all those stories are really true, then HOW does those mere four anecdotes "prove" that porn is inherently bad? It doesn't. For every story you know about porn having a negative influence, I can tell a story about porn being a positive influence. So your rambling stories really don't "prove" anything.

In fact, your post makes it painfully clear that you haven't chosen a point of view (= porn is bad) because of experiences; you have taken the stance that porn is bad and now you're seeking out incredible stories to support your already taken position.

Besides, your arrogance is really getting ugly. You say you "don't pretend" porn isn't bad. That implies that I and others on this board *do* "pretend". That's arrogant and close-minded. You were never open to any type of discussion. You are as closed as an oyster. You will never let any opposing view in.

[seabeyond]

206. i took the time to discuss issue. you arent interested. i am not in battle

i am not talking right and wrong.

just happens cnn has an interesting article up. not only the article. but the video of a man discussing this very thing

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/12/26/porter.men.violence/index.html?hpt=C2

[DutchLiberal]

208. I was interested until you said that those who don't agree with you are "pretenders"...

How can there be discussion when you say the 'pro-porn people' "pretend" porn isn't harmful? When you say they "ignore" the harmfulness? You leave no room for opposing views. You have already decided your point of view is the only "true" one. Can't argue with someone like that, sorry.

[seabeyond]

212. people deny in order to support for all reasons. if that is all it takes for you not to listen

or think or learn, then that is your elephant in the room. not mine. but even at that, i bet you did not go to the site, read what is said and listen to the man. i dont buy people are open when all their action shows otherwise. after a point, one simply stops and quits wasting time.

[DutchLiberal]

219. You insult everybody who doesn't agree with you. It's condescending...

You say they don't "think", they don't "want to learn". You're just condescending. Pathetic.

[waddirum]

210. dutch TV

I was in the .NL in 2006, and there was hard core porn on my hotel TV (antenna... not cable) in the early afternoon. I was in Utrecht, at a hotel directly across from the Cathedral, and there was up-close full-penetration on my TV set. In fact, it was impossible not to see it if you go through the full rotation of channels on the remote.

I was shocked and pleasantly surprised to see how much of a prude I'd become.

[DutchLiberal]

221. That's only on antenna; that's not/was not on regular Dutch tv...

And that's not an exclusively Dutch phenomenon, either, I'm sure.

[northzax]

168. and I'm sure that taught him a very valuable lesson

in finding a better place to hide his porn.

when my mother found my stash, my dad took me fishing (never a real good sign, meant we had something to talk about) and basically said "Son, you know that stuff isn't real, right?" I got a lesson on the difference between fantasy and reality. fantasy was the pinup on my wall (And the magazines under my bed) reality was the people I knew, and saw, every day. I had never met a woman who looked like the ones in the magazines, but then none of my friends really looked like the kids on TV. watching cooler kids than I was on TV didn't mean I was objectifying kids and wouldn't be able to relate to my peers, as long as I knew the difference. and I was told to find a better place to hide my stash, because it would upset my mother. I'm 36 now, and still occasionally look at porn, but mostly it just bores me. I'd much rather have the reality.

[Chorophyll]

63. + about a zillion and three.

We should be teaching our sons from the get-go that girls are people just like they are. And don't rape anyone, ever. Ever.

[seabeyond]

165. i was raised that way. we were raised as people not gender. it worked well

i have found myself raising my boys as people, not gender. it is working well. one of the many things i thank my parents for, and am happy to pass down

[SoCalDem]

248. I's sorry, but by the time a girl is hanging out with guys, she should not NEED to have her Mom say

"no".

Throughout my almost 63 years on this creaky old earth, I have known MANY girls whose Mom & Dad told them NO..You are not allowed...Don't you dare "do it"..


Those girls' names? "Mommie"..

Opportunity & peer pressure are more powerful than anything Mom & Dad say because a teen brain says to them "bad stuff happens to other kids..you are special..nothing bad will happen to you"

the individual teen has to value their own future enough, and trust in their own self-worth to resist...and to also be smart enough to not put themselves into dangerous situations where they may not be strong enough emotionally or physically, to escape.

[Upton]

13. There is porn made by women for women

in it, I'm sure the women are much more engaged.

[Webster Green]

14. Links?

}(

[JVS]

18. +1

[Kurovski]

245. Google CFNM...

But that's more about objectifying and embarrasing men, which might be cathartic for some. Occasionaly there will be eroticism presented in the free links.

"Hey little Dick!" is a particularly funny site out of England, i think.

[DutchLiberal]

15. There are many different kinds of porn on the web nowadays...

Seems like the kind you're describing is the kind I would never watch. Let me guess: you only see genitals, hardly ever see a face, and the girl will have a soar throat afterward from all the fake moaning? :puke:

I've seen a trend emerge the last few years (and it has even made the newspapers) of so-called 'amateur porn'. It's either people filming and uploading their own sexual activities, or 'professionally made' porn that just *looks* like everyday sex. Where there's actually foreplay and build-up, almost none of that gross zooming in on the genitals, but focusing on the person's expressions of pleasure. None of that fake, acted moaning, but natural noises. And no silicon-ed breasts and tons of make-up. Just natural, casual-looking sex.

I think you would've been much less shocked had you seen that kind of porn. So, not everybody is 'into' that kind of porn and obviously a lot of people will still watch the kind you described. But I don't think that means all people or even a majority will watch that, and I don't think it will influence a majority of people in a negative way. Teenagers just need to be educated at a young age about how to take media and how to separate it from reality.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. +1

You nail it.

[devilgrrl]

82. I happened on a clip of amateur porn...

without a doubt, the least offensive sex scene ever filmed.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

21. "Certainly no prude" Everyone says that, few demonstrate it.

[seabeyond]

25. i agree a person should not have to make this statement before dicussing this issue. unfortunately

with pro porn people, if any one dares to discuss the issue, they are called a prude and much worse. so people are being conditioned to putting that in for clarification. not that it does any good, so i agree jvs, no need to add it "i am not a prude" and wish people would not feel the need to say, "i like sex" before discussing issues with porn

[DutchLiberal]

95. You paint people with a rather broad brush, don't you think?

"with pro porn people, if any one dares to discuss the issue, they are called a prude and much worse."

The idea to categorize "pro-porn people" as a group is even laughable to me. Who's to say the "pro-porn people" all think alike and share all the same opinions? Why can't there be a little more nuance instead of making it a question of one 'group' versus the other 'group'?

[seabeyond]

99. yes dutch, you found a little piece of generalization. hoorah. i also took note you are the ONLY

well, one other poster seems to be accepting some people dont like porn, .... you are the only pro porn poster that has challenged others on their "prude" statement. and that was just recently. i was going to post on that, thanking you for your openminded post and defending a persons right to not like porn, and not be a prude.

my mentioning the "pro porn" people are referring to posters on du, that consistently promote and defend porn here on du, with the comments of all challenges are made by prudes, asexuals, uglies, ect....

it may not be a form of interaction you are used to. it is one we continually get on this subject. a little honesty at seeing the number of men that reduce comments made about porn to prudes, on this thread is evident.

we rarely can have an honest, open discussion on porn. generally reduces to PRUDE... and that is about it. hence my comment about conditioning people to say... i am not a prude, but. i always oppose such clarifications in statements. i think they make us weak. i think they should not be necessary to make ones point. on this subject and many others. that was my point of the post, and the point you conventiently ignored.

i have read your posts, and you seem to address issues, but i think there is a lot you ignore in weighing the harm it is doing to society today with all the excess and availability.

[DutchLiberal]

105. I don't think I'm ignoring anything. I just see things differently...

I also don't think it's a question of "defending" or "promoting" porn. I have come here for maybe 4 or 5 years and I've seen similar threads. But 99% of the time, they're started by somebody who expresses her (his?) dislike for porn. I have never seen anybody open up a thread to "promote" porn. I don't see myself "defending" porn. I just state my opinion on the subject. If somebody doesn't like porn, I won't lose any sleep over it. But, I do take offense to people trying to force their disapproval of porn onto others. I'm not saying those people are prudes, but they aren't very open-minded when it comes to other people liking different things than they do.

[superduperfarleft]

117. Who is trying to "force" their disapproval on others?

Does posting one's opinion constitute "forcing" someone into a certain of way of thinking?

[DutchLiberal]

124. Did I say that?

I think you might want to read some of my other replies in this thread before you jump to premature conclusions.

I was not only referring to this thread, but other threads in the past; that's why I said "people" in general. Some people treat you like perverts or sickos just for having an opposing opinion.

[Taitertots]

31. +1000

It is the "I am not a prude but....". Where "but" is immediately followed by something prudish.

[Hannah Bell]

73. according to some, anything that suggests concerns with any porn = prudish.

[superduperfarleft]

42. The case is certainly not closed on whether or not pornography is "harmful."

Dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as a "prude" is unfair and intellectually lazy.

I myself have issues with pornography (not with its existence per se, but with the way it is produced and marketed), but that doesn't mean I'm a "prude." It simply means I'm a member of the anti-capitalist left with a concern about turning human beings into nothing more than a commodity.

[Hello_Kitty]

68. The "prude" accusation is held over the head of anyone who dares criticize

Frankly, I don't give a flying farting fuck if some dewd thinks I'm a prude.

[Hannah Bell]

76. +100.

[Silent3]

129. "a flying farting fuck"

I don't think I've ever seen that variety of porn.

[DutchLiberal]

94. How do you suppose the TS "shows" she's no prude? And why does she have to?

[Hannah Bell]

106. it's just a slam. she's proved she's a prude because she doesn't appreciate video of

men sticking bats up women's asses, or whatever.

someone likes that, so it must be a social good, & anyone who doesn't like it is a prude.

wankers.

[Kurovski]

246. It's mostly men who take bats up their asses.

And fists and arms. Go figure. And if you EVER saw a woman take a Louisville up there for the team, then she wanted it there. If it wasn't, do society a favor and report it to the FBI.


I've never seen a woman do it. (in her vagina, a fist. Never saw a bat. Wine bottles go up there a lot, especially in the 1970s, but I'm sure they do in real life, too. Or any other handy object, as I have been told in "real life".)

It's hard to believe, but people like to do these things. maybe You don't. Maybe I don't. But there you have it. T'aint nobodies business if they do. You don't have to watch, but if you're not watching, how can you speak about what you think is going on?

Some people like to be humiliated, or act like a "whore" or be "dirty". When self-contained, perhaps very polite and religious individuals act these things out in the bedroom because they BOTH want to do it, they really aren't thinking about the political ramifications. They just know it gets them off. It frees them in a way that empowers them to ORGASM and emotional, perhaps psychological RELEASE.

Some people can be brought to vomit at the thought of engaging in such a scenario. They will choose--what?--one of one billion other scenarios, techniques, candles and dinner, massage, partner doing the dishes, whatever gets that little woman in the boat to rise.

Since the onset of the internet, the old school views on porn just don't hack it as well as they used to. it's very clear that woman enjoy porn. And we know it too be true as the market proves.

But you also take issue with people conducting business and with Capitalism.

BTW, there are enormous amounts of free porn on line. You need not one penny. (other than your internet connection) to obtain a thousand lifetimes worth of porn. There are Clubs, groups that share freely, which is in keeping with Marx on one level. (The world changes so fast when people can really communicate with each other on such intimate, or at least private, levels.)

The old arguments are fading.

[Kurovski]

24. You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant.

You into humiliating men? Controlling men? hurting men? Tying up women? feet? Messy food fights? Romance with lots of kissin'? Romance novels? Squash, bananas? Leather? Art nudity, crass nudIty, medical nudity, nudity nudity? Sex with santa? Porn from the turn of the century? 50's beefcake? Straight, bi,Tranny,gay,lesbian, pegging, spitting, fisting? (or no porn at all?)

They are all performing for the camera, quite different from sex in real life between two people. People either know how to connect on different levels or they don't.

It's been a problem before computers and technology. I keep thinking about the french existentialists, for some reason. The world is changing. we adjust or we don't. we miss the old ways, the usual rituals. But the fact remains: people either learn how to connect, or they don't. Humans are skittish creatures. And let's face it, most people find unfamiliar sex disgusting, bizzare, disturbing, or just boring and pointless.


People sit at the same table where you are? (Just kidding)

(EDIT: I do agree that young people need healthy examples and need to be taught to respect their own sexuality and maintain control over the self. While many of those things spring from general upbringing, it's best to be specific. Then they are free to share or give-up control as they see fit and desire.)

[NashVegas]

33. It Was Rarely a Problem On This Massive a Scale

What purpose does it serve to force a society to adjust it's basic, prime directive, to a business demand?

[Kurovski]

70. I was specifically addressing the issue of people answering phones

in the middle of...whatever. People don't have to do it, and yet...some do by choice. It personally strikes me as rude (years of conditioning) but some folks seem adept enough to text and talk, or pay some attention to the person in front of them.

It's second nature to so many now.

I remember twenty-odd years ago being personally offended by a server in restaurant referring to their elders--including a female-- as "guys". That offense didn't last long, Dudes.

I blame Rita Moreno in The Electric Company for that. :evilgrin:

I think isolation and being disconnected is a problem like it always ever was. We had the feeling of being connected by neighborhoods, but that's empty too if people just can't or won't open up or let it in. Emptiness is nothing new. People used to live on farms, away from others. People would go stir crazy. So sometimes it's good to disconnect, as well.

And if porn is the business directive you speak of, people buy or don't. I'm not sure what the adjustment would be there. people are more than happy to post free content as well, exhibitionism and voyeurism also being a component of human interaction.

I'm rambling. Don't listen to me.

I have to get ready for christmas dinner. Happy day! :hi:

[DutchLiberal]

96. Nobody's forcing anybody to watch or simulate porn...

You're either into it or you aren't.

[SixString]

26. The best thing about the new porn....

No Bush.

[Kurovski]

27. For now.

This too shall pass.

[SidDithers]

29. What you saw was some porn...

not all porn.

Some is awful, some is good. Some you might even enjoy. There's something out there for just about all the tastes and fetishes that make up human sexuality.

Sid

[Codeine]

30. Some porn is awesome. Some porn sucks.

Some completely normal people with healthy relationships might enjoy porn that would make your head explode or make you question your sanity. I've dated women who had porn preferences that shocked the shit out of me, and others who couldn't stand any of it. It's really not that big a deal.

[seabeyond]

34. gasp!!!! a woman that didnt like porn. surely she didnt like sex either. had to be a prude

or not

she just didnt like porn.

yup

[DutchLiberal]

98. The poster didn't say any of those things...

You're over-dramatizing. Your point of view is clear. Why be so hysterical about it? We respect your view; why not respect ours in turn?

[seabeyond]

100. bullshit, lol you may be respectful which i acknowledged above

but to even kinda suggest a "we" in the respect is absurd, lol. and this thread is evident, as i stated above.

not "hysterical". i was doing a funny. you know... GASP.... playing. extreme. fiened shock that a woman can not like porn and still like sex.

you want to play this game of mutual respect in discussion, then dont make something out of my post that it isnt.

actually, i was confirming and thanking the poster in his balance to say.... some do, and some dont

[DutchLiberal]

107. If you're not being 'hysterical', then why is the tone of your posts so... aggressive?

Take the post I'm replying to. You say things like "bullshit" and you say I'm "playing a game", and you laugh at everything I and others say. Why so defensive? And with the "gasp"-s and the misplaced sarcasm. You seem to be here solely to mock the people who express an opinion that you don't share.

[seabeyond]

135. over dramatize, hysterical, aggressive, defensive, mock

you seem to miss the key points of my post to you. i told you, i was agreeing and acknowledging his point some women like it, some dont.

you see to be missing my key points readily and deciding thru net what i am feeling. you are not pegging it correct. and i tell you that, you still ignore and lecture me on communication and discussion

that is ..... funny, lol, to me. so i share.

but it is obvious there is a block on hearing what i am saying, so go at it hoss.... i am done trying to explain what i am saying, anymore.

respectfully...

just done

i dont agree with a lot of your conclusions. i see errors in some of your conclusions. but that is generally how these discussions go. one person finally says... enough, tired of being told what i feel while what i say is ignored.

[DutchLiberal]

138. I didn't ignore what you said, I simply disagreed with it...

If you can't handle that, maybe it's better we stop here, indeed.

[seabeyond]

140. you didnt address or discuss. you did address and discuss my emotional state.

it is not a matter of me "not handling" it. i obviously can "handle" it. it is why conversation is not condusive.

[DutchLiberal]

I addressed and discussed many things; just read the thread again.

The only time I didn't address or discuss anything was when you didn't give me anything to address or discuss.

And can we now please go back on-topic instead of making posts about each other?

[paulk]

148. complete non sequitur

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

149. not really, since i was addressing the very discussion that particular poster

brought up.

lordy, talk about rolling eyes. lol

[Codeine]

155. I think seabeyond was lampooning some of the overstatements

on the other side. For the record, the lady in question was not a prude, she was just bored silly and a little squicked out by porn. She still liked sex, just not watching other people have it.

[seabeyond]

163. not everyone is voyeristic. i never have been. i get embarrassed for people on the award shows

making speeches adn lookin like fools. cant watch the train wrecks. dont watch reality shows. not a watcher.

more a doer.

thanks. yes. that is all

[treestar]

32. I'm not sure porn alone would indicate the culture

In some ways I envy the younger generation. They don't seem to have to conform so much. In my parents' day, you had to wait until you got married. In my day, you had to do it immediately or you were uncool. Now, it seems they can say what they want, do it right away if they want, or "take it slow," as they say. It's recognized that it is individual in nature.

And you'd only seen one instance - you'd have to study it all to judge it as an overall genre!

[Kurovski]

249. Those are great points.

As a gay person, I certainly wish I could be sixteen again. It's much easier, far less stressful than it was then.

(Not that it isn't pretty lousy in smaller towns, even today.)

[Lucian]

35. People in porn are paid for it and know what they're getting themselves into.

I don't know why there are threads like this here on this site.

Pointless.

So you don't like it. Big deal. I don't like broccoli. I don't post that here.

-1

[superduperfarleft]

43. People that work at Wal-Mart are paid for it and know what they're getting into.

You're saying a site with a large base of so-called leftists should not discuss the conditions under which people are often forced (whether through ignorance, economic necessity, etc.) to labor?

[Lucian]

45. Totally different argument.

:eyes:

[superduperfarleft]

47. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.

Same thing I used to tell me grandmother when she'd quote the bible at me.

[Lucian]

49. 1. Pornstars get paid a lot more than Walmart workers.

2. People in porn know what they're getting into.
3. If you don't like it, don't fucking watch it. End. Of. Story.

You bore me now. I'm done.

[superduperfarleft]

53. I'm boring you?

That's funny... :rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

84. Not really. The big stars get paid well. Most performers, not so much.

[SidDithers]

46. I like broccoli..

lots and lots of broccoli :evilgrin:

Sid

[Lucian]

48. You should start a thread on that then.

:evilgrin:

[Hannah Bell]

77. no, young people never know what they're getting themselves into.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

101. young people never know what they're getting themselves into; in this, or any other

matter. because they're young & inexperienced.

your personal remarks are entirely uncalled for. thanks for your christmas spirit.

[DutchLiberal]

102. But if young people never experience anything, how do they ever get 'experienced'?

I mean, yes, I understand that they're young and can't always see the repercussions of their actions (though I think that's somewhat of a broad brush), but there's a flaw in your reasoning, because you *never* know what something is like until you've experienced it. If you start doing porn at 26, do you really know what you're getting into just because you're a few years older?

[Hannah Bell]

103. yes, you know more at 26 than you do at 18. and more at 36 and still more at 46 etc.

of course people have to do things to gain experience. that doesn't negate the point that young people typically don't know what they're getting themselves into.

it was quite a neutral remark & in no way deserving of the nastiness it elicited.

imo, when people come back with such nastiness after neutral remarks, it's telling.

[DutchLiberal]

109. When you start doing porn at 26, you still don't know anything about what you're getting into...

I imagine it's a very hard, intense, emotional roller-coaster of a job. Were we to follow your reasoning, people would have to wait until they're in their mid-twenties before they could make any decision...

And I wish people wouldn't get nasty over opposing points of view.

[Lucian]

125. I think it was totally called for.

There's a reason why an 18 year old is considered a legal adult. Because they can make adult decisions.

If you can't grasp that, then the remark was justified.

[DutchLiberal]

133. Why do you have to be so nasty about views that differ from yours?

Your nastiness affects the way people reply to *my* posts.

[Lucian]

145. Not being nasty.

Being truthful.

[DutchLiberal]

146. No. You're being an asshole.

[NashVegas]

153. And Therein Lies The Rub

I guess it's age, but as those boring things called morals start to appeal to me, I realize now that they're important because whether or not the person(s) involved in the act come through okay, it's because they often fuck it up for everyone else.

[Boojatta]

83. I'm listening. You say that you don't like to eat broccoli.

However, if you've never watched a video of other people eating broccoli, then how do you know that you wouldn't like to watch such a video? I mean, you can rush to judgment without checking it out, but why be a prude?

[whatchamacallit]

39. I used to "joke" with my friends

I was worried that after exposure to crazy net porn, my teenage son would have no idea what normal relations were. I joked he'd be parked with his girl, and after some kissing and petting, he'd turn to her and innocently ask "is this when I'm supposed to put a beer bottle in your ass?".

I remember telling my boy he's going to see people doing all kinds of wrong to each other for no other reason than they can. :/

Happy Holidays, Parents!

[Vickers]

69. "is this when I'm supposed to put a beer bottle in your ass?"

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

We had/have the same concerns with our oldest daughter...the first time my wife (accidentally) caught her checking out porn, it was an all-anal site.

:P

[Codeine]

87. When she wants a beer bottle in her ass she'll let him know.

That's been my experience anyway. :evilgrin:

[toddaa]

40. Hardcore porn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDa3ARP2Rww

I need kleenex

[qb]

41. Porn isn't a reflection of our society's human relations; It's just images that get people off.

It's unfortunate that a demand exists for porn that degrades women, but I don't see this type of porn itself as the culprit as much as the people who create the demand for it.

[DutchLiberal]

111. It's funny how people who watch 'degrading' porn often are the sweetest to women in real life..

At least, that's what I have read and heard about the subject. Porn is like a fantasy: you don't always want them to come true. Like there are women who have rape fantasies, but would obviously never want to experience anything like that. Porn, like fantasy, gives those men a way to live out their darkest fantasies without people getting hurt.

[Book Lover]

44. The "dirty, filthy" porn you think is all new was there in the 70's, too

Just harder to get a hold of. Relax, humans are just as fucked up and as wonderful as we ever were.

[Taitertots]

50. I'm no prude, but (Insert prudish judgment about other people's sexuality) n/t

[Lucian]

52. +1

[superduperfarleft]

54. I'm not an intellectually lazy person, but (Insert intellectually lazy, dismissive comment). n/t

[Taitertots]

55. You figured it out, and it only took me rubbing it right in your face

You are a quick one, lighting wit.

[superduperfarleft]

56. As with all things DU, I have to keep repeating to myself:

"Pearls before swine. Pearls before swine."

But carry on. Wouldn't want to interrupt a series of "zomg dats stoopid!" posts with an attempt an actual discussion.

[seabeyond]

58. what is funny. what is truly funny. when a person says, they dont like porn, the defensiveness

so many have to position themselves in. simply say, .... i dont like porn. and people have to call them names and defend their like of porn. no one telling them not to watch their porn. not to ban it. a mere "i dont like porn" and the hackles it raises and name calling that ensues.

comical

[superduperfarleft]

59. Eh, it's christmas. I'm in too good a mood for this anyway.

You have a good holiday. :toast:

[seabeyond]

67. back atcha...... nt

[Hannah Bell]

79. +100. not only can't tolerate the comment, must attack the one who makes it.

[Taitertots]

60. Actual discussion, LOL

What a line of BS. You came in with unrelated snarky bullshit instead of responding to my posts. So if you want to actually discuss the OP's blatant hypocrisy then feel free to comment about it. If you want to post snarky bullshit, then "Good day to you sir or madam"

[superduperfarleft]

61. How exactly was I supposed to respond to your posts?

I responded to the one-liner snarky bullshit you posted with equally snarky bullshit, and now you want to complain about hypocrisy?

To paraphrase several posters in this thread, "zomg dats so stoopid."

[Taitertots]

64. Good day to you sir or madam

I am interested in actual discussion. Not childish bickering because you wanted to pick a fight. If you don't want to discuss my posts and the OP then "Good Day". Seems you want nothing more than snark and "Zomg dats so stoopid".

[DutchLiberal]

112. Why is the OP "blatantly hypocritical"?

Could you explain that to me, using real arguments?

She has expressed an opinion and a concern. Maybe you don't share that, but why is that hypocritical?

[Lorien]

211. There it is; this isn't about an objection to sex. It's about the complete

dehumanization of the sexual experience. Hell, the complete dehumanization of most interpersonal experiences-even conversations at work!

When I read the OP, the first thing that came to mind was one of the two Christmas dinners I attended yesterday. As a single person, I get invited to Holidays at the homes of various friends, so I went to one Christmas dinner at 1pm yesterday, and another at 6pm. At the 1pm dinner, we chatted while cooking and setting the table, then the hostess announced that she wanted to watch a movie while eating our dinner (??). She brought out TV trays and we sat on the couch silently munching while watching an inane sci fi flick. No conversation at all. I just didn't get it-but I guess everyone has their own traditions. The second dinner was spent around a dining table having a very lively conversation with five adults and two kids. Obviously much more fun was had at dinner #2. It's sad when people feel that stuff on television is so much more interesting than the friends and family around them.

[SidDithers]

72. Yup...

Nailed it (no pun intended)

Sid

[Taverner]

57. Human beings? You don't understand porn

Porn is about fantasy, not reality

It can be catharsis, or it can be role play, but it would be a mistake to say it has any connection to reality.

When sexual fantasies play out, the last thing that they want to have any connection to reality - unless one is seeking out porn that is specifically reality based (Real Amateur Milfs, etc...) and even then once its established the 'object' is 'real' it usually goes right into fantasy.


Don't judge society by its porn - only the lack thereof. For a society without porn is a mixed up society that tends towards dangerous practices

[DutchLiberal]

113. I think that's right on the mark.

I compared porn to fantasy above, before I read your reply. But that's exactly what it is. However, what *is* a real and existing problem, is the fact that (many?) young boys aren't taught how to 'take' porn and how to separate it from reality, and that's harmful to both women and to themselves.

[Taverner]

204. As a kid telling me that was overstating the obvious

And if we thought there might be a chance telling a comely young lass that my dick is "...24 inches, let's go do it now!" might work, the slap that we incurred usually did the trick :)

[DutchLiberal]

205. But it *is* true that there are young boys nowadays with unrealistic expectations...

due to what they see on the net. So to some boys, it's not really overstating the obvious, but a much-needed reminder.

[Taverner]

217. All it takes is one slap to knock said sense into them, however

[EFerrari]

62. There's a documentary playing on Free Speech TV on and off

about the contemporary porn industry and the sexualization of violence. You're right. Porn has changed. The clips in that film are horrific.

[Kurovski]

75. I would be interested in that

Ritualized violence or actual violence? Sado-masochists have sexualized violence for a very long time. (safe words: a must)

If there is actual rape, that is of course a crime.

It is not so expensive or risky to produce porn that would find no market by old means of distribution. Now every little fetish is sought out, and is cheaply produced.

I'm not sure violence was in rose's viewing. It was the emotional coldness represented, perhaps. But many people also prefer, or must have emotionally detached sex foe a variety of reasons. They prefer it. It does not matter the sex of the individual.

[EFerrari]

81. What made it almost unwatchable for me was the whimpering.

There chained, bound, gagged, whatever, women whimpered. And as they didn't seem to be method actresses, it makes you wonder how much is real whimpering.

[Kurovski]

179. It's emotionally painful for anyone who has experienced actual violence.

I do not find it enjoyable on any level, but some find it cathartic or thrilling, or helps them to feel vividly alive. There must also be emotional reasons in some instances. Acting-out, or whatever you could call it. Likewise, I'm not inoculated against any mainstream entertainments' realistic depiction of emotional and physical cruelty.

I've seen ad pages featuring representations (pictorial) where the individuals involved smile and embrace in the last image, I imagine that's to reassure us that it was sexual performance. These included the methods you mention, and included female dominance. The photography was professional and the people seemed to know each other.

It's all fascinating to me. On a personal level, homosexual porn was very freeing to a lad who thought he was the only l'il 'mo in the world.

Then of course, their is the wretched world of sex trafficking. I'll never lose the shock of men finding rape of a child something to pay for. Perhaps you've seen some of MSNBC's weekend reports. That there is such a strong market is depressing beyond anything. War is the only thing uglier and inhumane.

Oh, and the sound of Sarah Palin's voice. That's just goddawful.

[DutchLiberal]

115. You're wrong in assuming all porn is the same...

That documentary (like all documentaries) wants to present a point of view and therefore, it selects clips that support its point of view. That doesn't mean this documentary is giving you a fair and balanced look (hmm, where have I heard those words before?) of all porn that's out there.

I'm not saying you would or should like all those other kinds of porn, but just that you probably only saw a tiny fraction of it.

[EFerrari]

143. I haven't said I think all porn is the same. n/t

[DutchLiberal]

144. Then why do you take one documentary on face value?

[BOG PERSON]

65. why don't you go to some place like iran or china

where pornography is difficult to obtain. we in the Free World are able to appreciate the pure eroticism of naked aggression



http://stateoftheart.popphoto.com/.a/6a00d83452517869e201156f8c1783970c-800wi

[Kurovski]

71. And it occurs to me Rose, that the kid might have disliked it just as much

as you did all those years ago. It could well have been a link sent to her by someone, particularly because there was just one bit.

I mean, it's not like she became a collector.

[devilgrrl]

74. The problem with most hetero porn is that there's nothing EROTIC about it...

seems like most of it gears toward humiliation. What's so sexy or hot about that?

[Kurovski]

78. Maybe it keys into cultural shame about sex?

You must be punished for your naughty bits!!!

[Hannah Bell]

80. maybe it keys into cultural psychopathey around power relationships?

[Kurovski]

247. It can do that too.

There is no "most of it is humiliating". The range is much wider than that these days.

But for the truly humiliating stuff, yes those are probable reasons.

It's instructive to note that some women find fellatio to be humiliating. That is perhaps why many men seek it elsewhere. President Clinton didn't consider it sex. It's not a given in any repertoire. Again though, it seems to be generational. I've never heard a man say cunnilingus was degrading.

It would be good to understand what people find humiliating, other than the obvious tell-tale signs of derision and shoving.

[Codeine]

85. Humiliation can't be sexy or hot?

An entire community of perfectly healthy and happy fetishists would disagree vociferously. That something is not sexy to you or I doesn't make it inherently unsexy or bad. It's just not to our tastes.

[DutchLiberal]

136. Some is humiliating, some is 'just sex' without eroticism...

Not everybody cares for eroticism, but that doesn't mean porn without eroticism is therefore humiliating (not saying that's what you were saying).

I think 'humiliation porn' is there for people to live out a dark fantasy. Something they would never *want* to do in real life, yet they like to fantasize about it. That kind of porn is about power, male power, and I think it functions as an outlet for men. I'm not into that kind of porn myself, but I can see why it exists.

[Skittles]

152. it appears to be what men are hot for

and THAT is what is truly disturbing about too much of porn

[DutchLiberal]

154. But how many men reenact the porn they watch in real life?

I would guess very few.

[Skittles]

158. I'm guessing you are not a gal

[DutchLiberal]

160. Please elaborate... (You're right, by the way)

[seabeyond]

164. actually, from what i understand, that has become a HUGE issue. men thinking sex

is what they see in porn. that is what i am hearing from the younger generation of gals.

granted. this is only what i am hearing. it is not a part of my life.

[TorchTheWitch]

190. Are you kidding?

Before porn got so prevalent men only wanted sex from me. Now they expect me to have explosive multiple orgasms in 3:50 minutes from when they walk in the door, deep throat, have sex with women and multiple partners simultaneously, do anal, squirt gallons of fluid with every orgasm... and more recently I'm supposed to enjoy fisting.

Yeah, porn has EVERYTHING to do with what men expect from women sexually.

[DutchLiberal]

199. Yeah, sure, I believe you...

That wasn't exaggerated *at all* :eyes:

I'd like to see all those herds of men who "expect me to have explosive multiple orgasms in 3:50 minutes from when they walk in the door, deep throat, have sex with women and multiple partners simultaneously, do anal, squirt gallons of fluid with every orgasm". I don't know where you pick up men, but where I come from, that's pretty uncommon. Oh, and porn hasn't "become prevalent". t's been around for decades.

[Skittles]

235. um......Dutch?

do you date men?

[DutchLiberal]

241. I know men. And I know women who will make up anything to support their anti-porn POV...

Which is what happened here. Anti-porn people will always sensationalize and exaggerate any bad encounter with a man (or the man had to be a psychopath for their incredible claims to be true, in which case it's his psyche that's rotten and not the porn); then link it to porn (with no proof whatsoever); and then generalize it to make it seem like their anecdotal, overblown experience is true for all men...

It's called manipulation.

[Codeine]

156. I think the subset of men still willing to PAY for porn and thus

finance the industry want that. Most guys just wanna see people fucking and watch whatever is out there.

[Skittles]

157. nudity, fucking is one thing

degradation and humiliation are another

[Codeine]

159. Understood. nt

[DutchLiberal]

161. There are still men who PAY for porn?!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :rofl:

Losers!

[harun]

92. How does one email the link to porn on someone elses computer?

Are you saying her daughter had a bunch of porn on her computer and the mom sent you some random link to some other porn?

[SmileyRose]

167. no

the niece went off to college with her new laptop knowing her old desktop would be taken over by her mother (my sister). The niece forgot to clear out her favorites, so when my sister got online on this computer the links (more than one) came up in favorites (bookmarks) - I assume curiosity got the best of my sister.

It's not so much that my sister is worried about her daughter over this particular group of links - as the astonishment of how porn had degraded further since the last time we saw it and the general concern of what chances the dear niece has in a world that produced it.

[harun]

230. I see

As other's have pointed out there are literally thousands of different genre's in modern porn. Not all of them like what you stated.

I do share your concern that we are in a world that is less intimate, more cold and more individualistic every day. A human treating another human with dignity isn't high on anyone's agenda these days.

[leeroysphitz]

97. Jesus, just what is your niece into? n/t

[DainBramaged]

110. The Opening of Misty Beethoven

Back in the day, this film received high acclaim for it's quality and story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Opening_of_Misty_Beethoven

[ZombieHorde]

134. The 1970's had some really crazy stuff, you just happened to see something you consider tame.

Then you saw some 2010 porn which you did not consider tame.

There may be some new wacky stuff since the 70's, but nothing more brutal or dehumanizing. The 70's were insane.

[BadGimp]

151. me too

with my trusty friend Spanky The Hand Towell

[Kurovski]

183. That's adorable.

:rofl:

[Dash87]

166. I don't like porn at all.

But I would fight a great deal for the right of others to watch it. As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, I could really care less.

I don't know much about it. Does it really show people getitng hurt? Why would anybody want to watch that? That sounds depraved and evil. But if that's what you like, and as long as you don't try to hurt me or anyone else, I don't see a problem with it. :)

[Hannah Bell]

169. in fact, there's nothing people do that doesn't affect others.

[Dash87]

170. How so in this case?

[Hannah Bell]

171. pornography is a for-profit industry. like all capitalist industries, it's in the interest of the

business to grow it.

go from there, all the permutations of that basic equation.

[Dash87]

173. Are you arguing that porn actually has a negative effect on society as a whole?

Do you think it makes violent men more violent (or more likely to act violently on their violent fantasies?)

A growing business isn't necessary a bad thing if the women that are in the videos know what they're doing and agree to star in the videos.

[Hannah Bell]

176. are you arguing with the straw men in your head?

[Dash87]

182. Huh? I was kind of just trying to get you to clarify your point so that we could talk about it.

I wasn't sure what you were talking about. Oh well.

[Hannah Bell]

184. i thought my point was quite clear:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=68404&mesg_id=70496

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=68404&mesg_id=70524

[DutchLiberal]

201. Impossible.

I defended the anti-porn crowd against vile attacks of some pro-porn people. They were called prudes for not liking porn, which I don't agree with. My reward was just more attacks from the anti-porn crowd.

[Electric Monk]

172. There's porn on the internet? Who knew?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

177. best comment on this thread

[JVS]

178. Evidently it's hard-fucking-core

:scared:

[Kurovski]

180. Nothing says "Christmas" like a nice discussion about porn.

So, is this our new front in the War on Christmas? :patriot:

Alert O'Reilly and the FOX and Phlegms crew!

[Electric Monk]

181. Top 10 Christmas Porn Movies: GameLink's Must-See List

NSFW link (found with a quick google search for 'christmas' + 'porn')


http://www.gamelink.com/naked_truth.jhtml?id=christmas-porn-list

9. Santa's Revenge

Who the hell is Santa to judge if you've been naughty or nice? The jolly old man has been very very bad himself. Sneaking around and getting caught with his pants down.


lol

[Kurovski]

185. Damn straight.

That Santa asshole needs a good reaming. You can get away with breaking and entering for only so long.

[seabeyond]

192. i am confused. porn all nifty and nice. normalized and mainstreamed. why not discuss

on christmas, middle of kids bday party, or at the dinner table. you seem to imply there is something dirty or "bad" about porn and we should not be discussing it during certain instances.

kinda like saying whores and porn so ok but using those words for everything we dont like. like the politician whoring themselves out. and war an ugly hardcore of porn.

schizo people that we are

who is making sex "dirty". such a prudish nation

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kurovski]

238. Go ahead, give it a try.

Hey!! What did I miss here? A deleted sub-thread!? I'm outraged!

[DeadEyeDyck]

202. Bingo!!

"The women in these things have absolutely no personal power in the exchange. It was really very frightening to see these girls treated this way."
That is the reason most are attracted to porn. Porn addicts feel empowered watching animated sex. They don't have to fear rejection when it is on a TV or magazine. And to see the man in absolute control just enhances that feeling of safety. What is really frightening is the sadistic nature of some much porn and it has even made its way into main stream media. Look and many of the video games. Kids are being deadened to death and torture.

[Kurovski]

240. You really do run into a lot of sadistic porn? Do you seek it out?

Or do you just see links sent to you to tell you how sadistic porn is?

I don't see much of it. I do know it's out there.

Do you know children who are deadened to death and torture? How many do you know? are they in prison? Wanted? In therapy? I know around 20 young adults who grew up on violent video games, wrestling, etc, they are not deadened to such things. Their parents raised them, not the video game console. Video games are fantasy. They are created images, not films from abu ghraib and the streets of Baghdad.
Now the children in Iraq: they would be the ones most likely to be deadened to death and violence.

Have you heard of Marat Sade? Certainly you don't think sadism in mutual sexual relationships is only twenty years old? Do you? really...do you?

[DutchLiberal]

242. You mean the Marquis de Sade?

Is that who you were referring to? Good point. Pornography has been around longer than a few decades...

[Kurovski]

244. Thank you, yes I was.

I made the mistake of combining Jean Paul Marat with the marquis, which is the name of the old Peter brook production, as we all know. :D

[Forkboy]

207. Well, we clearly spent our Holidays differently.

:evilgrin:

[Dark]

214. The internet is what happened.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/02/technology/02porn.html

Perhaps counterintuitively, the market continues to be flooded with new video releases, both online and on disc. Mr. Fishbein said that this year he expected to see more than 1,000 X-rated DVDs a month produced for retail sale, a figure driven in part by the new spate of low-budget filmmakers.

“The barrier to get into the industry is so low: you need a video camera and a couple of people who will have sex,” Mr. Fishbein said.

Some companies say they have had success with selling subscriptions to their Web sites, and in offering movies for download or watching online. But Internet revenue, while growing modestly, is not compensating for the drop in video sales and rentals. In 2006, revenue from online subscriptions and sales was $2.8 billion, up from $2.5 billion in 2005, according to estimates from AVN — an increase but nothing near the e-commerce growth enjoyed by many industries.

[Electric Monk]

216. Shhh. Nobody tell SmileyRose about Chat Roulette.

some NSFW

http://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/the-24-best-chat-roulette-screenshots-nsfw

[DutchLiberal]

223. Paying to see porn online is just as stupid as paying to see it on dvd...

Who are all these suckers?

[ismnotwasm]

215. Porn lacks imagination

And Porn lite, like the ones on the cable stations are a big yawn. Even extreme porn, unless someone is really 'into' it, is eventually repetitive and boring. Looks very painful to me. Insert object 'A' into orifice 'B' is about what it amounts to.

IMO, which is not shared by most at DU, porn is both misogynist and racist. It may not 'cause' rape anymore that video games 'cause' violence, but a glance on any given day at the top ten porn titles suggests that porn is used to visually objectify and degrade women and women of color. To dehumanize them or describe them in terms of body parts, race, age or all three. (The usual counter argument to this is 'what about Gay porn' meaning MALE gay porn, because it sure isn't Lesbians buying or viewing the majority of Lesbian porn. Food for thought)

True Sexual innovation and imagination which can be expressed and found in forms of 'erotica' which for purposes of easy definition you could describe as porn with actual sensuality involved, is far more enjoyable, far more stimulating to those who desire sexual evolution (rather than sex that at best goes just beyond mutual masturbation) and almost impossible to find.

Want to talk about 'evil corporations? Phama, THE gov'ment, Wall-mart, wall street? The sex industry is right up there with the rest of them, I don't know why we try to fool ourselves using the words 'sexual freedom' when we're still in metaphoric if not actual sexual bondage.

How we view sex is tied to religious views of morality and patriarchy. Object to porn, even at the most liberal sites on that basis and that argument gets turned around by the truly sexually repressed, telling those who want to break free of sexist and heterosexist depictions of what constitutes healthy sexuality that they're not only the ones who are repressed, but anti-civil rights.

This is because the most vehement defenders of porn can't break away from the prevailing idea of 'morality', which is always one of contrast and opposites based on the duality (Good vs Evil) of religions that are such a huge influence in our society, secular or not, which in turn is based on gender 'roles'

One of the reasons I'll always remain an atheist/agnostic is because all, and I mean all religions have something shitty to say about women. Sad but true.


Porn is an very successful attempt, in fact call it an accomplishment, at telling folk what to do, who to do it with, what looks good, what doesn't, what to watch, what to get excited by if you don't want to be considered 'a prude'.

Fuck that. (not literally of course)

[DutchLiberal]

224. Porn doesn't "tell you what to do/think/get excited about". People do.

People are excited about something and that's why they watch a particular kind of porn. Not the other way around. People like a particular kind of women (blonds, brunettes, reds etc.) and that's why they watch porn featuring that kind of woman. Not the other way around. People may get ideas or inspiration from porn, but there's nobody "making" them to act out what they see. It's the people who decide for themselves.

Also, I could see why somebody would say porn is misogynist. There could be good reasons to say that. But I fail to see how it is racist.

[DeadEyeDyck]

231. you need to write your own OP

very good assessment

[DutchLiberal]

234. Oh God, please not another porn thread!

[Kurovski]

243. Telling folks what to do is a big hobby for many of us here at DU.

Your essay is very specific to you in many regards. You make the mistake of believing everyone is like you.


Sex is a remarkably individual thing. People just pretend to assume everyone likes the same things.

[Tsiyu]

218. To be fair to the kid

Most kids who are watching porn don't save it to their favorites on shared computers,

There are malware programs that will load porn onto favorites when you download other stuff - game cheat codes, etc.

Not saying it wasn't the kid's "fave" site; maybe it was.

Just saying that site could be there for a number of reasons.

:popcorn: I do find porn threads are always a good way for me to sort out DU.

[Kurovski]

250. I knew someone around here had to have that job.

It's generally otherwise far too disorganised.